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Thread: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Well the rumours are starting to gain momentum, and with enough detail to begin to sound credible. Here's what I have heard:

    9D will be the official designation (why a 9, I have no idea...)

    16.2 MP, single digic-III processor

    ISO rumors are still sketchy, but looks like only a one-stop bump, 100 to 3200 with a L and H of 50 and 6400 respectively.

    Improved weather sealing and micro AF adjustment.

    No word on sensor shake/cleaning, no word on auto-ISO.

    My comments: My biggest need for a DSLR is high ISO for really low light shooting, and preferably a usable 6400 with auto-ISO function. I also want a non-pro body due to the smaller size and lighter weight as I carry the cameras a lot more of the time than I need 10 frames per second capture rates. While I'd prefer as much resolution as is usable, I would not give up ISO 6400 to get it, so megapixel count comes in as a secondary consideration for me.

    So IF the above ISO rumor is true, then one can assume that ISO 6400 will be pretty noisy, with 3200 to be the practical usable maximum. For me, this could be the final push to the D700 as I found 6400 acceptable on it, though still a bit noisy for my tastes. Will need to see some files before I decide, but it should be interesting!

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  2. #2
    asabet
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Jack, I hadn't seen those rumors in any of the usual places. The 9D designation popped up in a UPC registration site, but anyone can submit that. The specs you cited sound realistic enough..

    I gave up on waiting and bought the D700. I have slightly mixed feelings about my choice, mostly due to the greater strength of the D700 AA filter compared to that of the 5D. I slightly prefer the image quality from the 5D at low ISOs. However, I like to focus manually, and the manual focus experience on the D700 is superior to the manual focus experience on the 5D. No more stop down metering. Also, the Zeiss 50 macro is my favorite 50 ever.

    I'd give the D700 about a one stop advantage at high ISO. Processing from RAW, D700 image quality at ISO 6400 is similar to 5D image quality at ISO 3200 (even though the D700 file is native and the 5D file pushed). The biggest difference is in the blacks, which are much more pure in the D700 files. If the new Canon offers native ISO "only" up to 3200, it may still match the D700 performance at ISO 6400. Provided that one processes both camera's RAW files in an "honest" converter like C1, the 1.3x crop 1D III comes awfully close to the D3/D700 at ISO 6400 despite only going to 3200 natively. I'm guessing that a full frame version of the 1D III sensor will measure up very well to the D700.

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    A german magazine has strongly hinted, though in a reading-between-the-lines sort of way, that it will appear by Photokina. No further details.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    It will be interesting to see if 'improved ws' is real or just another gasket or two on the 40D body style (supposedly had better weather sealing vs 30D), if the VF uses an SI screen or projected (I suspect the former) and what they do with the AA filter. I am REALLY curious if they altered the AF system.

    Asabet - like yourself I have reservations about the AA filter, but processing some D3 NEFs someone forwarded to me (in C1V4, Aperture, RD and NX2) comparing against 1Ds2 shots, a little USM seems to go a long way and the shots take it well. I agree on better blacks rendition.

    I also much prefer manual focus work 90% of the time and the 5D VF is a PITA (even with Ee-S) to manual focus (assuming it's well calibrated) and I while I've gotten very good at stop down, I could do without the missed shots it can lead to -- and the need to shop for lenses that are uber sharp WO so you can get a hurried shot w.o stopping down if need be..

    I only regret going N would/will be the loss of Leica glass use - barring sending my piggy bank to SKG for some R-Nikon conversions.

  5. #5
    asabet
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Asabet - like yourself I have reservations about the AA filter, but processing some D3 NEFs someone forwarded to me (in C1V4, Aperture, RD and NX2) comparing against 1Ds2 shots, a little USM seems to go a long way and the shots take it well. I agree on better blacks rendition.

    C1 v4, Aperture, and RD are the best of the ones I've tried in terms of bringout out the detail in the D700 files. I haven't tried NX2, and I'm seeing less detail with LR. Sharpening certainly helps, but I preferred the balance between detail and aliasing with the 5D.

    I also much prefer manual focus work 90% of the time and the 5D VF is a PITA (even with Ee-S) to manual focus (assuming it's well calibrated)

    I was using the Ee-S, but I don't think mine was well calibrated.

    and I while I've gotten very good at stop down, I could do without the missed shots it can lead to -- and the need to shop for lenses that are uber sharp WO so you can get a hurried shot w.o stopping down if need be.

    Either that or focus with the lens already stopped down a bit .

    I only regret going N would/will be the loss of Leica glass use - barring sending my piggy bank to SKG for some R-Nikon conversions.

    I've very little experience with Leica R lenses, but from what I've seen here at GetDPI, I can understand your concern.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Using myself a D3 since 6 months now I only can say I am very pleased with it's ISO6400 performance. It is absolutely wonderful, especially if you use the light meter in spot or center mode and do the right exposure (rather on the lights than on the darks of course.).

    Since the D700 sensor is exactly the same and Nikon also states the IQ is the same, I think the D700 and the D3 are the best DSLRs available today, if it comes to higher ISO performance.

    I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level. They had such a big advantage above Nikon a few years ago and seem to have been sleeping. If the 5D successor "only" offers ISO3200 and 6400 as a push, then I would say they have lost the game for the moment. Especially as Nikon is going to announce a few primes for available light plus a 24MP D3xyz, which then will be the top of the range DSLR comparable (and I am pretty sure above) the current 1DSMkIII.

    Interesting how strong Nikon became, especially after having such a huge disadvantage compared to Canon only 2 years ago

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level.
    I suspect it is due to having more pixels. Pixels at higher gain (ISO) generate more heat, and heat is what makes digital noise. Hence more, closer-spaced pixels generate even more heat and thus more noise. The AA filter moderates a lot of this as of course does internal processing. BUT almost all noise-related internal processing accomplishes its magic my blurring the color slightly, in turn compromising quality. (AA also degrades fine detail at the same time, and why Nikon folk are starting to complain about "fine detail" -- conversely, Canon users complain too, but have been dealing with it for a few years now.) So I suspect it is a sliding scale balancing optimal resolution with optimal noise; you can have one or the other, but not both, at least yet.

    I'd rather have 11 or 12 million usable ISO 3200 pixels than 16 million usable 1600 pixels, but of course if I can get good clean ISO 3200 pixels, I'll take as many as I can get! That's why I want to see the files from the Canon before I decide. But I definitely agree: if Canon does not crack a clean ISO 3200 with the new camera, then the D3/D700 will be declared the winner in my book.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Jack, serious question, given the high iso of the D700 and an auto ISO that is as good as you can get, why are you sticking with Canon given the rather lackluster specs that most expect the 5D mkII to have? Is it the extra megapixels? Not that I would discount that, been playing with some 40D files from a 2nd shooter at my last wedding, the difference between 10 and 13 megapixels is pretty huge for me..
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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    For lots of people the wider choice of glass favors Canon. Let's consider the optical quality equal between Canon and Nikon to avoid the classic arguments.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Canon has to do something. I got a 5D for full frame and fell in love with it's high ISO. but now years later, I still don't have a back body, want my high ISO and have too much in Canon glass to switch to Nikon. There's some of that glass Nikon just doesn't have like the 50/1.0 and the ability to use my Zeiss 21/2.8.

    But I'm very tired of waiting on Canon to replace the 5D. It's almost like they were embarssed by it's success.

    I was considering the 1DsMkIII but was not taken with it's performance for the price compared to the 5D.

    Come on Canon, you are not Leica you can move faster than this.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Jack, serious question, given the high iso of the D700 and an auto ISO that is as good as you can get, why are you sticking with Canon given the rather lackluster specs that most expect the 5D mkII to have? Is it the extra megapixels? Not that I would discount that, been playing with some 40D files from a 2nd shooter at my last wedding, the difference between 10 and 13 megapixels is pretty huge for me..
    Hi Ben, fair question.

    First off, my main reason for sticking to Canon would make most folks laugh, but here goes: The lenses mount the same direction as my Leica (and most other cameras), and the focus rings turn in the same direction as my Leica... Maybe I am dyslexic or something, but I shot Nikon for 25 years and never did get the reverse lens mount twist to become an automatic gesture. Canon OTOH is automatic in that regard (as is my Leica) and manual focus (on the rare occasion needed) is similarly intuitive.

    Next, I am in no rush to get my replacement DSLR. If a job arose where I absolutely needed one today, I would buy the D700, end of discussion. But I don't need it today (or next week) and IF the new Canon has as-good 3200 and auto-ISO, then the Canon becomes a more viable solution for me.

    The added pixels are a bonus IMO, but only if the ISO issues are level, so one more point Canon if that happens to be the case.

    Finally is glass. The main lenses I would use on this DSLR are a few fast primes, normal to short tele, and a fast 80-200 zoom, maybe a relatively fst longer tele. Here, Canon has a speed edge in the primes, though IMO the mid zooms and longer lenses are essentially equal IMO.

    So, at the end of the day, I want to see what Canon actually delivers in this new camera before I make my final decision.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Canon has to do something.
    snip
    But I'm very tired of waiting on Canon to replace the 5D. It's almost like they were embarssed by it's success.

    I was considering the 1DsMkIII but was not taken with it's performance for the price compared to the 5D.

    Come on Canon, you are not Leica you can move faster than this.
    I suspect it was the fact that the 5D was so good that it ate into the 1 series body sales, and they didn't want to repeat that scenario with the 1Ds3, so gave it ample time to fill the market.

    The way I see it, Nikon has forced Canon into a corner. They almost HAVE to bring this 5D replacement out as a superior tool, or they will see a mass exodus of current customers...

    I also sold off almost all of my Canon glass several months back, only keeping a few particularly good primes, because I knew I could always buy it all back at any time. So in this fashion, I am poised to move rapidly into either camp once I make my final choice.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Jack, I totally agree with your analyses and believe you are right. I think the 5D was closer to the 1D cameras in IQ but wider in price differential. This was especially true when considering the 1DsmkII/III. However, since the 5D is not so great when it comes to fast action shooting it does create a separate market for the 1DmkII/III. I wonder whether Canon held onto the 5D II or whatever it is going to be called or whether they were really still refining. It is clear now that if they do not release -- then there is going to be more of an exodus to Nikon. I have to give Nikon credit for how well they have caught up since canon's first DSLR release. The only concern would be if Canon is rushing their release and there is some unknown kink---something like what happened with their 1DmkIII release and a couple of their historic other release snafus. M

    I will have to make my own decisions on what to do. Since going with the Hasselblad MF, I do not use my canon very often and when i do, it is the 5D not the 1DsmkIII. So i probably should consider selling both the 5D and 1DsmkIII and getting a 5DII and maybe a 40D if rumors and performance turn out to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I suspect it was the fact that the 5D was so good that it ate into the 1 series body sales, and they didn't want to repeat that scenario with the 1Ds3, so gave it ample time to fill the market.

    The way I see it, Nikon has forced Canon into a corner. They almost HAVE to bring this 5D replacement out as a superior tool, or they will see a mass exodus of current customers...

    I also sold off almost all of my Canon glass several months back, only keeping a few particularly good primes, because I knew I could always buy it all back at any time. So in this fashion, I am poised to move rapidly into either camp once I make my final choice.

    Cheers,

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    First off, my main reason for sticking to Canon would make most folks laugh, but here goes: The lenses mount the same direction as my Leica (and most other cameras), and the focus rings turn in the same direction as my Leica...
    I'm not laughing; I thought this was one of the main reasons why Leica users, when they went SLR, chose Canon - I've seen this argued elsewhere, to same effect. Nikon is counter-intuitive.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Neither am I, some of the main reasons why I'm sticking with Canon are that I'm used to the direction of the zoom ring and the fact that you have to press the button then turn the wheel on the sb-900 to apply compensation, I can do it with the wheel alone on my 580ex/II's via a CF. I also find the back wheel on the cameras to be too stiff for me, awkwardly placed.

    Small and silly but they add up when you've been shooting a system for 10 years and when you know that anything that slows down your subconscious reactions mid wedding is a bad thing!
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Asabet

    Losing Leica glass would be suck, but like JF, I've have pared down my lens cabinet a lot of late. Had too many lenses I wasn't using and wanted to skinny it down to have as few lenses that were Canon-mount-only as possible. Wanted any switch to be as painless as possible. Lost nothing I couldn't replace at the same price or lower at some future point if no switch materializes.

    Naturally shoot stopped -down one or two stops if lens is iffy WO. That said, the ability to do so is naturally constrained by available light and the lens (contrast delivery). The best so far has been the 100 APO Leica. Using the1Ds2 with the Ec-C1V screen from the 1D3/1DS3, focusing the 100 APO at 5.6 was perfectly doable. Some others, not so much..

    The 5D was famous for some bodies not behaving well with alternate (as in not shipped with the body from factory) screens. Mine was one. Had to play around with shims and test targets ad naseum to get the sucker to manually focus accurately with the Ee-S screen. For manual work, I found the etched focus points via the SI screen a real annoyance.

    Toss a split screen in there (if I was willing to re-calibrate again) and placing a shallow Dof was like trying to focus through a car wreck. Body and features could be also have been more robust - given the price (when new). That said, a fully featured semi-pro camera (a la the D300/D700) is not Canon habit.

    Whatever the release date, it will be interesting to see how things split between squeals of glee (fanboys accepted again - never understood that) and cries of outrage ;>

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Using myself a D3 since 6 months now I only can say I am very pleased with it's ISO6400 performance. It is absolutely wonderful, especially if you use the light meter in spot or center mode and do the right exposure (rather on the lights than on the darks of course.).

    Since the D700 sensor is exactly the same and Nikon also states the IQ is the same, I think the D700 and the D3 are the best DSLRs available today, if it comes to higher ISO performance.

    I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level. They had such a big advantage above Nikon a few years ago and seem to have been sleeping. If the 5D successor "only" offers ISO3200 and 6400 as a push, then I would say they have lost the game for the moment. Especially as Nikon is going to announce a few primes for available light plus a 24MP D3xyz, which then will be the top of the range DSLR comparable (and I am pretty sure above) the current 1DSMkIII.

    Interesting how strong Nikon became, especially after having such a huge disadvantage compared to Canon only 2 years ago
    Hmm interesting question in there.
    I suspect that Jack has a point about cutting into the 1 series sales.
    But I think we also have to remember the 1D III focus fiasco. That probably cost Canon 6 to 8 months of moving forward because they had their best working on the fix.

    My question to you is. how long was the time between release of the D2 Xs and the D3?
    In all that time all Nikon did was work on ISO, Right? Basically the camera is the same as the D2x. The only improvements are in ISO.

    Now I am just speculating but I think Canon was caught off guard by how good the Nikons are at high ISO.
    The new 5D replacement should have improved ISO. Not sure how improved but I am sure it will be better.

    With that said I guess we are stuck to have to wait and see.

    As of now there is no current body I need to have. I am content with the 5D and 1Ds MII for now. I can hold out for another year or 2 before I need something new. By then Canon will have caught up or passed Nikon again in ISO quality and then still be way ahead of them in the Mega pixel race.

    The only thing that would temp me to get the 5D replacement would be Higher ISO.
    But its not a deal breaker and enough to jump ship over.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Homey View Post
    Hmm interesting question in there.
    I suspect that Jack has a point about cutting into the 1 series sales.
    But I think we also have to remember the 1D III focus fiasco. That probably cost Canon 6 to 8 months of moving forward because they had their best working on the fix.

    My question to you is. how long was the time between release of the D2 Xs and the D3?
    In all that time all Nikon did was work on ISO, Right? Basically the camera is the same as the D2x. The only improvements are in ISO.

    Now I am just speculating but I think Canon was caught off guard by how good the Nikons are at high ISO.
    The new 5D replacement should have improved ISO. Not sure how improved but I am sure it will be better.

    With that said I guess we are stuck to have to wait and see.

    As of now there is no current body I need to have. I am content with the 5D and 1Ds MII for now. I can hold out for another year or 2 before I need something new. By then Canon will have caught up or passed Nikon again in ISO quality and then still be way ahead of them in the Mega pixel race.

    The only thing that would temp me to get the 5D replacement would be Higher ISO.
    But its not a deal breaker and enough to jump ship over.
    WRT what Nikon did between the D2X and D3:

    1) implement a FF sensor
    2) completely redesign the autofocus - the D3 and D300 and D700 have now a 51 point AF which works suerb in all conditions I checked. And pro's are satisfied as well - read the reports
    3) they worked on several new lenses, and we will see more during the next months (especially primes)
    4) and YES, they worked successfully on ISO

    All this in combination delivers their unique position in camera functions, handling and IQ today, as good, that lot of Pro's are moving into the Nikon camp.

    And they should be able to top all of that by the D3X (or whatever will be the name of this beast) delivering 24MP - due in autumn 2008 - I guess Photokina time.

    My guess is, that Canon was to reluctant on their advantage over Nikon over the past years. They still have advantages in some areas - like entry level DSLRs, which are much better today than what Nikon offers, but these areas are getting smaller.

  19. #19
    asabet
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Instead of attacking Nikon's D700 on its strengths (autofocus system, weather sealing, highest ISO, high frames per second with grip), Canon could be successful by innovating with a focus on image quality. Imagine a 5D replacement with the following:

    1) 16MP sensor with native ISO 3200 max and ISO 6400 performance slightly worse (maybe half a stop worse) than D700
    2) Physical switch to select between moderate AA filter and no AA filter
    3) Modular sensor, upgradeable by Canon in the future
    4) Auto ISO
    5) Only 4 frames per second, not changed by adding grip
    6) Only 9 point AF but all points cross type
    7) Non-pro weather resistance

    Such a camera wouldn't much threaten 1Ds sales and wouldn't compete head on with the D700 on its strengths, but it could be one hell of a portrait/landscape camera. I bet it would sell well.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body? Can't see it being feasible mechanically either, would cause more problems that it would solve.

    AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?

    A decent Auto ISO from Canon? You wish, bunch off arrogant bastards who can't see past the beancounters, enjoy your nikon, at least they build for photographers not megapixel marketing weenies.

    For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
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  21. #21
    asabet
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body?
    I don't see why modular sensors couldn't be profitable. Perhaps they could charge 2/3 the price of a new and improved camera for just the sensor. Even if you strike the modular sensor off the list though, I think the rest could be enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?
    The switch would have to move the low pass filter from in front of the sensor/ICF and replace it with an appropriate piece of clear glass. Why couldn't it be done?

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    You could put a "Holga" name on this puppy and I'd be all over it.

    That said:

    1. At 16MP, I think you'd have a tough time getting clean native 3200 - with current tech. The PP's would invariably compare it to the D3/700 and all sorts of cat fights would be started in what are already increasingly-childish forums.

    2. As said above- they're either strong, weak or not there. Personally have a hate-on for the things myself.

    3. Modular sensor - DMRII could have been that, but if Ctried it there'd be Err99 or Err01 codes flying all over the place every time you switched 'backs'.

    4. Be nice - but can't see C doing it - maybe the next gen Pro bodies. They like to de-feature their consumer bodies too much.

    5. No issues - but people tend to prefer 'spray & pray' with an AF system that borders on AI, so....

    6. Again, fine by me - but see #5 above.

    7. Will see that in 5DII - essentially a 16MP sensor in 40D carcass (40D was supposedly better weather-sealed vs 30D for what that's worth).

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    Instead of attacking Nikon's D700 on its strengths (autofocus system, weather sealing, highest ISO, high frames per second with grip), Canon could be successful by innovating with a focus on image quality. Imagine a 5D replacement with the following:

    1) 16MP sensor with native ISO 3200 max and ISO 6400 performance slightly worse (maybe half a stop worse) than D700
    2) Physical switch to select between moderate AA filter and no AA filter
    3) Modular sensor, upgradeable by Canon in the future
    4) Auto ISO
    5) Only 4 frames per second, not changed by adding grip
    6) Only 9 point AF but all points cross type
    7) Non-pro weather resistance

    Such a camera wouldn't much threaten 1Ds sales and wouldn't compete head on with the D700 on its strengths, but it could be one hell of a portrait/landscape camera. I bet it would sell well.

  23. #23
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    You are essentially saying that you want two FF sized peices of glass joined together horizontally and the mechanism to move them side to side, oh and the spare room in the camera to do it. As I said, science fiction!
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    I hadn't actually thought it through that far, but your described method sounds like it could work . Oh, and looking at how huge the 5D and D700 are compared to what I'd like, I feel those smart Canon engineers ought to be able to find the space in there .

    I'm sure you realize that many of the things we're using now sounded like science fiction just a few years ago.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    It would make dust removal pretty much impossible and that is where marketing says the money is!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post

    For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
    Have to agree Ben, Canon is being run by a bunch of weenies, not photographers. We pinged on them for YEARS to add a dedicated MLU button instead of the stupid CF12 gyration, and instead we get a direct "Print" button that NOBODY asked for --- how stupid is that?
    Jack
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Some exec in the printer division has some pull - and a failed degree in marketing.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body? Can't see it being feasible mechanically either, would cause more problems that it would solve.

    AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?

    A decent Auto ISO from Canon? You wish, bunch off arrogant bastards who can't see past the beancounters, enjoy your nikon, at least they build for photographers not megapixel marketing weenies.

    For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
    Ben

    I agree with your assessment and i understand how one can own and use the system and still be [email protected]@$ off at the manufacturer. I waited a long number of years as a Nikon user who could not and would not lose serious money on selling one brand of lenses and buying another based on a better body (which Canon has had for about five years!) I couldn't believe that Nikon could let us down like that. But that was then and this is now and I still have the great Nikon glass and finally a couple of bodies to go with it.

    I think Canon is in a pickle. Yes they will probably have 16 Mpx and that will get them sales, particularly from those like you and jack who are already "stuck" with the brand as you describe it. Auto ISO is already available from Nikon so that is not a differentiator.

    Amin wants 4 fps but the D700 already has 5 and with the grip can get to 8 so that is a losing issue.

    There is little to no point to have switchable AA filters even if it were possible. The main point of an AA filter is to remove Moire and programs like Phocus prove that Moire is controllable (in the main) through software. So no big deal there either.

    My theory is simple. For Canon to win, being this far behind ( and so many people already having bought the D700) is to come with, let's say a D700 lookalike except for Pixels and they can certainly come up with a relatively inexpensive 16Mpx chip. They would, in my opinion have to price the body at under $2500 and more preferably at around $2100. I am not expecting them to do this but I believe this would be a strategy to gain a larger share of the market. Nikon will ultimately come down in price on the D700, as they always do, but it would be tough to get to $2100!

    Just my humble thoughts. I think Canon has a difficult row to hoe.

    woody

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    That's one of the things I really love about this forum, there is almost zero fanboyism. Lots of pros and serious photographers for whom the image making equipment is just that - a tool. Who cares what name is on the front.

    I've always said that everything between the image I picture in my mind and the final print is a necessary encumbrance, whatever makes it less so is a benefit by definition!

    It's an attitude I find here and sometimes on LL but almost never anywhere else.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Ben - well said. There are some exceptions, but overall the lens line/camera line FB attitude is pretty limited here.

    Almost everyone keeps a modest head on their shoulders and spats are moderated (and die off) quickly. While it WILL sadly get worse here as word spreads, lets hope we can avoid a lot of what afflicts so many other photo sites.

    Sadly FBism is increasing fast over at FM - even within the alternate glass forum which you would have thought would have been be the last bastion of objectivity. The sad reality of a site becoming too popular.

    Get enough humans together in one spot with an excuse to form a clique be it Canon, Nikon, Leica, Zeiss, OM (or whatever else they spend their money on) and away we go...

    The whole FB BS isn't just annoying, it also severely degrades the value of forums to people looking for information and assistance -- especially prior to making what could be a big $$ purchase. For a lot folks, the 'net (and the folks they meet over it) are their primary information source before laying down the old Visa.

    People forget that 'rent a copy...' or 'try one at your local store...' isn't an option for a lot of folks. I live 40 minutes from our provincial capital. The highest-end camera I can test (from a store) within a days drive? Nikon D300. Highest-end lenses? Nikon 14-24 or 24-70G. To rent gear? An 18 hr drive - or two days rental + insurance wasted on shipping back and forth from Toronto.

    The 'experts' at the local camera shop? When I visit, not only do they ask ME questions about what gear THEY should buy, guess who they refer customer questions to about anything above basic SLRs and lenses (poor SOBs )? Would be funny if it wasn't so #$% sad.

    The whole myopic FB BS also makes people hesitate in posting - because when they do, their odds of getting a POLITE: a) unbiased answer to a product-specific question or issue or b) a decent cross-sampling of opinion on a product is decreasing so fast in most places it isn't even funny.

    Nothing degrades someone's manners nor inflates their ego and 'expertise' like the buffer of the internet and a nom d'-guerre. Lets hope we stay above it for as long as possible.
    Last edited by robmac; 18th August 2008 at 05:00.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Hell yeah, been noticing that for a while on FM, especially on the Canon (there are no problems) and Nikon (there have never been any problems) boards. I was on the point of leaving when a reputable member wrote to ask me to stay saying that there has to be a few members who can see above the FB phenomenon. The patronisation there is pretty bad, especially of those who have problems. Too few pros and far too many internet presence only wannabees. Oh well, let's hope that the spirit of Guy who dared to buck popular thinking all that time ago, and the MFDB shooters, that crazy bunch of guys, will persevere here and keep this as a 'photographers and their tools forum' rather than the other way round.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    I hear you - about ready to give up on FM myself. Agree with you on C & N boards. Long been a member of the Alt board but it is now getting nastier as people seem to be sampling less variety of glass and falling into manufacturer's camps with open arms and closed minds. Increasingly you need to have the tolerance of a pre-school teacher and a BS filter dialed to '11'.

    I don't think I have more than 2 lenses from the same maker in my cabinet. While that's a bit extreme from the aspect of shooting practicality, but (as you state) they're tools and no one manufacturer makes a perfect line of ANYTHING. So until free lenses and bodies start showing up on my door ( I can be bought....;>), it's my $$$ on the line, so tools they will stay.

    Agreed - lets hope we keep the wagons circled here as long as we can - and that anyone new here who finds themselves about to have a (sadly) FM or DPR moment stop and thinks before hitting return.

    While some people are hopelessly pre-disposed to being myopic/arrogant/patronizing or simply an a****ole, most of us can de-program ourselves of old habits. Wife would be surprised - it almost sounds like I have some hope for the human condition ;>
    Last edited by robmac; 18th August 2008 at 06:56.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Nice comments folks at airport heading home for a gig but Jack and I are about the tools not the brand name. We like to keep it that way on the forums. I think we learn more this way than the FB way. We all have our favorites but seeing with eye's wide open is the best way. We will strive for that always as owners. Wow longest typing I have done by iPhone .LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Almost everyone keeps a modest head on their shoulders and spats are moderated (and die off) quickly. While it WILL sadly get worse here as word spreads, lets hope we can avoid a lot of what afflicts so many other photo sites.
    And we'll continue to moderate blatant FB-ism out. IF we ever get as popular as LL or FM, and IF we start to have too much FB-izm, we'll start a special set of forums, call them "user fan clubs" and put them way down at the bottom forum list!

    ,
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    such a devil. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    I don't see why modular sensors couldn't be profitable. Perhaps they could charge 2/3 the price of a new and improved camera for just the sensor. Even if you strike the modular sensor off the list though, I think the rest could be enough.



    The switch would have to move the low pass filter from in front of the sensor/ICF and replace it with an appropriate piece of clear glass. Why couldn't it be done?
    1) Removable sensor - this is nothing else than wishful thinking. Of course, theoretically it could be done, but actually no manufacturer of FF DSLRs would really like to offer. And mainly because such a design would be very expensive (see Leica's DMR solution) and not allow the camera manufacturers to make the desired profit on future models.

    2) Switchable AA filter - come on, you cannot be serious! Just look at the size of the camera and how big that filter is at FF and then consider where to move it while replacing it with another filter .... This will not work in a compact body!

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Great comments guys.
    I was actually thinking something close to the same. I was reading on here and was saying to myself how great this site is.

    I am still a FM member so please forgive me for that. I have given up on some of the others long ago but FM seems to have some good info on it.

    I remember why I came here in the first place. That was to move forward with my photography and seek out the best possible lenses I could to get the best image quality out of my tools.
    I don't care who makes it. If its better than what I have now then I don't care if it says quantiray on the side. I will still use it.

    I hope my earlier posts did not offend anyone.

    I am glad for the Nikon guys that Nikon has in fact made such great gear for you.. Sorry for you that it took them so long to deliver.

    I still cant wait to see what the new Canon 5D will be. But I am not getting my hopes up. My gear worked great this year and it will be great next year so I can hold out.

    I think we all here are Pro's here and I hope it stays a Pro forum with Pro attitudes.

    Now someone please explain to me why the Auto ISO is such a good thing..

  38. #38
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Auto ISO from a non pro. I use it in Aperture priority. If you feel confident in getting a clean image at many different ISO's it allows you in many circumstances to go into Auto mode and not worry about it. So, you need to set your base ISO (starting value), the minimum shutter speed, and the highest ISO you will allow. If you have enough light and shutter speed the ISO will stay at your base. As your light changes the ISO will automatically change.

    Example, shooting at a party. Part of the room was quite bright and some areas were quite dark. I knew about 1/60 would be OK to stop the motion from the people. So, I set auto at ISO 200 as my start, 6400 as the max, 1/60 min shutter.

    In bright areas, with the lens wide open I was at ISO 200 with about 1/125 on shutter and in dark areas stopped down a bit I could be at 6400 and 1/60 and some were a little below that at about 1/20 (because that was the last variable that could be changes as I had hit the limit on ISO, and Aperture was priority). So I could shoot at the party and only have to worry about my aperture and focus and not have to change any other settings. (Essentially, as soon as you hit the limit on shutter speed getting too low, the camera automatically boosts ISO).
    Last edited by Terry; 18th August 2008 at 20:07.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Homey View Post
    Now someone please explain to me why the Auto ISO is such a good thing..
    Because it enables you to prioritize to a specific aperture for a desired "look" while also prioritizing a minimum acceptable shutter speed. Think of it as aperture priority with selectable minimum shutter speed.


    Cheers,
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Homey auto ISO does sound like a gimmick and i do tend to agree but what Nikon did i kind of like they put parameters around it that you the user can control . So say your out shooting but do NOT want to go to 6400 ISO than you can tell the camera in the menu to hold at 1600 ISO or 3200 ISO. For me i try to stay as low as i can and stay away from any noise. Okay these things are great but I still am old fashion low is better attitude. But the nice thing is the camera will adjust when you hit low light and on A mode and at say 5.6 it will compensate with ISO instead of shutter or aperture which you may want to stay put and not move around on you. So in effect you can be at example F 5.6 at 1/250 for that particular need and the camera will adjust the ISO to compensate for higher or lower light. This can be pretty useful in certain situations.

    Geez three of us posting at the same damn time.
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Hi Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    1) Removable sensor - this is nothing else than wishful thinking. Of course, theoretically it could be done, but actually no manufacturer of FF DSLRs would really like to offer. And mainly because such a design would be very expensive (see Leica's DMR solution) and not allow the camera manufacturers to make the desired profit on future models.
    It's already been done AND on full frame as well - when Kodak brought out the SLR/n, they offered a sensor upgrade from the previous model (14n). It was actually about 1/3 original cost of the camera.

    Everybody said that if the sensor could be improved . . . they should give it away for free

    I would think that anyone else looking at the possibilities would take one look at that experience and run in the other direction.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter



    It's already been done AND on full frame as well - when Kodak brought out the SLR/n, they offered a sensor upgrade from the previous model (14n). It was actually about 1/3 original cost of the camera.

    Everybody said that if the sensor could be improved . . . they should give it away for free

    I would think that anyone else looking at the possibilities would take one look at that experience and run in the other direction.
    Well, of course it can be done, issues are:

    1) it cannot be for free - otherwise manufacturers would make no more revenue but rather loss on these models

    2) it s pretty obvious that a sensor change will imply more data to be handled (more pixels, more bit depth, etc - at least for the next years of evolution), so al the electronics for image processing would also need to be changed. And this means even more expensive. Can actually only be done in the way as it is done in MF digi backs, where you change sensor and image processing hardware together in the same back. Broken down to a rather small DSLR compared to MF would result in heavy and bulky DSLRs.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, of course it can be done, issues are:

    1) it cannot be for free - otherwise manufacturers would make no more revenue but rather loss on these models

    2) it s pretty obvious that a sensor change will imply more data to be handled (more pixels, more bit depth, etc - at least for the next years of evolution), so al the electronics for image processing would also need to be changed. And this means even more expensive. Can actually only be done in the way as it is done in MF digi backs, where you change sensor and image processing hardware together in the same back. Broken down to a rather small DSLR compared to MF would result in heavy and bulky DSLRs.
    It WAS done with the Kodak - and yes, they had a module which included the sensor and much of the electronics, it certainly didn't result in it being heavy and bulky. It wasn't popular though, and I doubt if anyone would care to repeat the experiment.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Jono

    I fundamentally agree with all you have said except................The performance of the original SLR/N was frought with problems. Color was pretty terrible, noise was unacceptable etc. However it was the first FF sensor so there was a pretty loyal following.

    Kodak, I believe priced the upgrade so as not to lose money and to pacify their customer base. Not only did they include a new sensor but super low ISO (6 if I recall) and a number of other features and fixes that made it a pretty darned good camera, at least for me.

    I would not think this represents any kind of model for a normal upgrade. Since an upgrade cannibalizes the sale of a new camera a substantial profit would have to be made on the upgrade.

    Woody

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Hi Woody
    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Jono

    I fundamentally agree with all you have said except................The performance of the original SLR/N was frought with problems. Color was pretty terrible, noise was unacceptable etc. However it was the first FF sensor so there was a pretty loyal following.
    They were interesting times - I did a lot of Beta testing for Kodak of the firmware for both cameras - and of the RAW converter (was it called photodesk?)- hours and hours doing spreadsheets of magenta and green values across the screen (very similar to the corner problems with the M8).

    The colour on the 14n was completely fixed before the upgrade - and many felt that the upgraded camera wasn't quite as sharp as the original.


    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Kodak, I believe priced the upgrade so as not to lose money and to pacify their customer base. Not only did they include a new sensor but super low ISO (6 if I recall) and a number of other features and fixes that made it a pretty darned good camera, at least for me.
    The ISO 6 option was available on the original camera, (with a firmware update only).
    The upgrade certainly didn't pacify anyone it was met by complete fury.

    Still, it was always intended that the camera would be upgradeable - and the internal design made it reasonably easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I would not think this represents any kind of model for a normal upgrade. Since an upgrade cannibalizes the sale of a new camera a substantial profit would have to be made on the upgrade.

    Woody
    Whether it's a good model or not, I think it was intentional, but it unquestionably backfired, and on that basis it certainly wasn't a good model!

    I agree - by the end it was a great and underrated camera - I often wish I hadn't sold mine.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Woody


    They were interesting times - I did a lot of Beta testing for Kodak of the firmware for both cameras - and of the RAW converter (was it called photodesk?)- hours and hours doing spreadsheets of magenta and green values across the screen (very similar to the corner problems with the M8).

    The colour on the 14n was completely fixed before the upgrade - and many felt that the upgraded camera wasn't quite as sharp as the original.




    The ISO 6 option was available on the original camera, (with a firmware update only).
    The upgrade certainly didn't pacify anyone it was met by complete fury.

    Still, it was always intended that the camera would be upgradeable - and the internal design made it reasonably easy.



    Whether it's a good model or not, I think it was intentional, but it unquestionably backfired, and on that basis it certainly wasn't a good model!

    I agree - by the end it was a great and underrated camera - I often wish I hadn't sold mine.
    Sometimes wish I had not sold mine as well and yes, the software was called Photodesk

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It's already been done AND on full frame as well - when Kodak brought out the SLR/n, they offered a sensor upgrade from the previous model (14n). It was actually about 1/3 original cost of the camera.
    That reminds me; didn't Kodak have a camera with a user-replaceable AA filter at some point?

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Well time to place your bets...

    The 40D replacement, the 50D, is now official so the 5d replacement cannot be far behind. Now here is what is interesting: the 50D has 15MP (4.7u pixels), new Digic IV, 6 frames per second and expanded ISO 6400 and 12,500...

    My money says that if Canon can do all that on the crop sensor, it bodes very well indeed for the specs on the 5D replacement
    Jack
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  49. #49
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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    There is a Japanese poster in the DPReview forums named dHitman who predicted the 18-200 IS back in April (though he said it would be bundled with the 450D), and judging from his posts may also have had a bit of advanced word on the 50D. He says the 5D replacement is a 21MP camera. Not outside the realm of possibility IMO.

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    Re: The 5D replacement rumor mill...

    Yes but they need to add some more benefits over there own 50d so this may turn out to be a interesting camera the 5d replacement. We can count on the new Digic IV for sure and most likely at least 5 FPS and my bet a 18mpx or 21mpx FF sensor. But i would like to see a very weak AA filter or i won't even look at it.
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