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Thread: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

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    Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    I've always liked gear that has been reduced to the bare esentials, and when the price is also extremely nice like in this case, I have problems keeping my plastic money from jumping out of my pocket.

    Very well done, Canon. I haven't owned a Canon camera since the A95, but this one is very tempting, as is the announced, compact 70-200 mm f/2.8.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-5G0SU3zMQ4

    https://www.dpreview.com/articles/15...os-rp?slide=12

    https://www.dpreview.com/news/558904...will-cost-1300

    https://www.dpreview.com/news/673417...ct-70-200-f2-8
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 13th February 2019 at 22:52.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Yes, very aggressive pricing, also when you make a kit with the RF 35/1.8. The main functional limitation that I see on a first pass through the specifications is the use of the small LP-E17 battery with correspondingly low captures-per-charge, which will likely mean lots of battery swapping.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Seems to be quite a great camera - here a review (finally in German - I vote for more reviews in German anyway )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c_q...em-uploademail

    Hard to beat for that price!

    And YESSSS - I love that new 2.8/70-200 - looks extremely compact and versatile. As also that new 2.8/15-35 - I always loved the "old" 2.8/16-35 already!

    Canon might get a real alternative to Nikon Z and Panasonic S

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Just saw these 1.2/85 and 1.2/85 DS announcements - man I loved the "old" 1.2/85 and here they come again in the new R-mount

    WELL DONE CANON

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    I would say that the only thing that has me confused isbthe strategy to release all of these excellent pro level lenses and consumer grade bodies. I was certain that Canon would go upmarket on this body to capture wedding shooters before the season began that refuse to work with a camera that doesnít have 2 card slots. Great camera for the entry level side of things it seems but the. The lens prices will likely scare the entry level market away from the system right now too. Yes you could adapt but then youíre accepting less than optimal performance for the new RF mount as well.

    I hope they release a pro level camera soon and hopefully one without a fully articulating screen. I think the Fuji/Panasonic S screen setups are perfect.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    I would take it with the blue grip

    Another funny good review from JP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFQVfBdadEs

    Given he loves Nikon he liked it pretty much .....

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I would say that the only thing that has me confused isbthe strategy to release all of these excellent pro level lenses and consumer grade bodies.
    Thom Hogan commented on this today:

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews...-mismatch.html

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    Thom Hogan commented on this today:

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews...-mismatch.html
    So, he thinks they launch to many great lenses? What's the problem? Leica has delivered basic bodies and great lenses for decades, and I don't see Leica users complain much.

    I mainly like this new body for two reasons:

    - It's small
    - It's basic

    Still, I want the best lenses that I can afford. Actually, buying a cheaper body helps me to afford better lenses.

    In addition to the above, it offers a fully articulated LCD, uses cheap SD cards and has a nearly flat top (yes, I place my cameras upside down sometimes).This camera plus a couple of fast primes? It isn't much smaller than the Z6 of course, but much cheaper, and Canon is coming up with new lenses faster than anyone.

    Fascinating times.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    So, he thinks they launch to many great lenses?
    He doesn't think that and he didn't say that. The point of the article is to explain what he thinks Canon's strategy is.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    The main functional limitation that I see on a first pass through the specifications is the use of the small LP-E17 battery with correspondingly low captures-per-charge, which will likely mean lots of battery swapping.
    Small battery size is not a problem for a Canon, only for a Sony of course. For a Sony it's a fatal flaw (as has been pointed out many times)
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Small battery size is not a problem for a Canon, only for a Sony of course. For a Sony it's a fatal flaw (as has been pointed out many times)
    For professional use, and often for travel, it's a problem for any camera in my view. What I've seen though, is that battery capacity and battery life are only two of many factors. The battery for this camera is small compared to the Z6 and tiny compared to the S1. Still the battery life according to specs is only slightly worse. There are many factors at play.

    No, I haven't ruled out another DSLR yet, and battery life is one of the reasons why. Only yesterday, the battery of my GX8 gave up at an inconvenient time (industrial process, several people involved, couldn't be stopped).

    I've gone from the OM-1, where the battery lasted for months, or even years, via DSLRs, where the battery mostly lasted a day, to mirrorless where it sometimes only lasts for an hour, forcing me to carry this little blue bag of spares in my pocket. That's not progress.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For professional use, and often for travel, it's a problem for any camera in my view. What I've seen though, is that battery capacity and battery life are only two of many factors. The battery for this camera is small compared to the Z6 and tiny compared to the S1. Still the battery life according to specs is only slightly worse. There are many factors at play.

    No, I haven't ruled out another DSLR yet, and battery life is one of the reasons why. Only yesterday, the battery of my GX8 gave up at an inconvenient time (industrial process, several people involved, couldn't be stopped).

    I've gone from the OM-1, where the battery lasted for months, or even years, via DSLRs, where the battery mostly lasted a day, to mirrorless where it sometimes only lasts for an hour, forcing me to carry this little blue bag of spares in my pocket. That's not progress.
    depending on HOW you shoot ive gotten as many as 500-800 shots on the old ďtinyĒ Sony batteries even though theyíre rated at around 300-350 shots. The newer batteries regularly see people getting 1500+ without trying and Iíve heard legitimate reports of 3000-5000 shots with them though I canít imagine wanting to take that many of anything because at some point Iím just shifting to video.

    I heard aome say you can expect 400-500 shots with the new Canon if youíre just doing photography but if you mix in video prepare to have a battery tote/case. Personally Iíve never had an issue with old Sony batteries and 3rd party options from Watson/Wasabi are available for cheap (4 for ~$20) and worked well.

    In any case the Canon RF lens lineup looks great but I didnít care for the EOS R so I doubt Iíll care for this one for my own needs. Maybe once they release their pro body Iíll consoder them if Iím still in the market and they certainly have the lens lineup covered but I expect Sony to do a lens refresh and Panasonic to come out with some winners too.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    depending on HOW you shoot ive gotten as many as 500-800 shots on the old ďtinyĒ Sony batteries even though theyíre rated at around 300-350 shots. The newer batteries regularly see people getting 1500+ without trying and Iíve heard legitimate reports of 3000-5000 shots with them though I canít imagine wanting to take that many of anything because at some point Iím just shifting to video.

    I heard aome say you can expect 400-500 shots with the new Canon if youíre just doing photography but if you mix in video prepare to have a battery tote/case. Personally Iíve never had an issue with old Sony batteries and 3rd party options from Watson/Wasabi are available for cheap (4 for ~$20) and worked well.

    In any case the Canon RF lens lineup looks great but I didnít care for the EOS R so I doubt Iíll care for this one for my own needs. Maybe once they release their pro body Iíll consoder them if Iím still in the market and they certainly have the lens lineup covered but I expect Sony to do a lens refresh and Panasonic to come out with some winners too.
    What could be interesting for me with the RP is to carry it with one or two primes and let my GX8 cameras handle the long and short ends. Body plus the native 35 mm f/1.8 and the EF mount 85 mm f/1.4 IS would be a possibility or just the 50 mm f/1.2. The size is more or less the same as the GX8, which is ideal for me, but the Z6/7 is also the same size except for the large hump on top, and Nikon will also release a 50mm f/1.2 soon.

    I'll buy some new kites while I try to make up my mind, which might be never

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Only yesterday, the battery of my GX8 gave up at an inconvenient time (industrial process, several people involved, couldn't be stopped).
    Oops, that's inconvenient.
    Did you change to a fresh battery before you started? Even the small Sony ones I have used have never given up within a couple of hours, even when shooting a lot. Most of the time they last at least a half day.
    Btw, thanks for biting on my tongue in cheek comment, I was was almost certain you would . I think that for most (if not all) intended purposes the small batteries of this new Canon are not a problem, it just requires a little foresight to change them out in a break when getting lower and not wait until they're fully depleted. At least that's what I do, and I've never missed a shot due to a depleted battery.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Oops, that's inconvenient.
    Did you change to a fresh battery before you started? Even the small Sony ones I have used have never given up within a couple of hours, even when shooting a lot. Most of the time they last at least a half day.
    Btw, thanks for biting on my tongue in cheek comment, I was was almost certain you would . I think that for most (if not all) intended purposes the small batteries of this new Canon are not a problem, it just requires a little foresight to change them out in a break when getting lower and not wait until they're fully depleted. At least that's what I do, and I've never missed a shot due to a depleted battery.
    For me, this is a serious issue. I always start the day with a fresh battery and another in my pocket, but I shoot a mix of video and stills in a busy environment, so the batteries run out fast sometimes. I should actually shoot using a vertical grip, so that I could change batteries on the fly when the camera is mounted on a tripod, but the GX doesn't offer that option. So, I should upgrade to a G9, GH5 or E-M1, or even a cheapish G85, which is a better camera for video anyway.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For me, this is a serious issue. I always start the day with a fresh battery and another in my pocket, but I shoot a mix of video and stills in a busy environment, so the batteries run out fast sometimes. I should actually shoot using a vertical grip, so that I could change batteries on the fly when the camera is mounted on a tripod, but the GX doesn't offer that option. So, I should upgrade to a G9, GH5 or E-M1, or even a cheapish G85, which is a better camera for video anyway.
    That's probably the main difference, I don't shoot video, only stills, so that also means a lot less strain on the batteries.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    What could be interesting for me with the RP is to carry it with one or two primes and let my GX8 cameras handle the long and short ends. Body plus the native 35 mm f/1.8 and the EF mount 85 mm f/1.4 IS would be a possibility or just the 50 mm f/1.2. The size is more or less the same as the GX8, which is ideal for me, but the Z6/7 is also the same size except for the large hump on top, and Nikon will also release a 50mm f/1.2 soon.

    I'll buy some new kites while I try to make up my mind, which might be never
    Not sure on my side either. I would love the R 1.2/85 and or the 1.2/50 but I discussed today with my dealer (he is more a Nikon dealer) that the RP has really too many issues. One of the biggest issues for me is the high crop in 4k and also that dual pixel AF does not work in 4k - which is one of the killer features in Canon land. Also the price in Europe is turning me down again as it is Ä1509.- compared to $1299.- in the US.

    All that together is not boding too well for Canon but I will wait anyway till end of 2019 and maybe they release a more (also expensive) Pro model without the 4k issues and also IBIS. That might change things totally. We will see.

    WRT Olympus - I decided to no longer invested in their m43 system, will continue using the EM1.2 but no more upgrades.

    I rather go any of the mirrorless FF paths - either Canon, Nikon or Panasonic - and this way I have to wait at least till early 2020 before I can see more clearly where each of them evolves their system. And maybe till then there could also happen the one or another discount or used body/lens that would influence that whole decision process significantly. Great that I am not in a hurry.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Only yesterday, the battery of my GX8 gave up at an inconvenient time (industrial process, several people involved, couldn't be stopped).

    ......... That's not progress.
    Progress Ö. and when you were shooting with your Fuji GX680 did you never feel that you ran out of film at an inconvenient time ?
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Also the price in Europe is turning me down again as it is Ä1509.- compared to $1299.- in the US.
    That's because the European price includes 20% VAT.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    Progress Ö. and when you were shooting with your Fuji GX680 did you never feel that you ran out of film at an inconvenient time ?
    When I shoot with the GX680, 9 frames can last for hours

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not sure on my side either. I would love the R 1.2/85 and or the 1.2/50 but I discussed today with my dealer (he is more a Nikon dealer) that the RP has really too many issues. One of the biggest issues for me is the high crop in 4k and also that dual pixel AF does not work in 4k - which is one of the killer features in Canon land. Also the price in Europe is turning me down again as it is Ä1509.- compared to $1299.- in the US.

    All that together is not boding too well for Canon but I will wait anyway till end of 2019 and maybe they release a more (also expensive) Pro model without the 4k issues and also IBIS. That might change things totally. We will see.

    WRT Olympus - I decided to no longer invested in their m43 system, will continue using the EM1.2 but no more upgrades.

    I rather go any of the mirrorless FF paths - either Canon, Nikon or Panasonic - and this way I have to wait at least till early 2020 before I can see more clearly where each of them evolves their system. And maybe till then there could also happen the one or another discount or used body/lens that would influence that whole decision process significantly. Great that I am not in a hurry.
    The RP has many limitations. That's one of the reasons why I like it. That and the small size/light weight.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The RP has many limitations. That's one of the reasons why I like it. That and the small size/light weight.
    Well Jorgen not sure why I would like a camera with many limitations

    Kind of understand what you mean, but I know that Nikon will bring a lower end Z camera pretty soon that might have less limitations but also a good price. And hopefully is smaller as well.

    I am still leaning more to Nikon than to Canon (even if they produce these beautiful 1.2 lenses). Just my 5c....

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well Jorgen not sure why I would like a camera with many limitations

    Kind of understand what you mean, but I know that Nikon will bring a lower end Z camera pretty soon that might have less limitations but also a good price. And hopefully is smaller as well.

    I am still leaning more to Nikon than to Canon (even if they produce these beautiful 1.2 lenses). Just my 5c....
    I shot with an OM-1 for thirty years. I didn't find that limiting. I have a Panasonic L1 that I enjoyed a lot. Except for the terrible viewfinder, I didn't find that limiting either. Or the Fuji S3 with an even worse viewfinder and a buffer that filled up after 3 frames and took almost a minute to empty.

    I have a feeling that I would like the RP

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not sure on my side either. I would love the R 1.2/85 and or the 1.2/50 but I discussed today with my dealer (he is more a Nikon dealer) that the RP has really too many issues. One of the biggest issues for me is the high crop in 4k and also that dual pixel AF does not work in 4k - which is one of the killer features in Canon land. Also the price in Europe is turning me down again as it is Ä1509.- compared to $1299.- in the US.

    All that together is not boding too well for Canon but I will wait anyway till end of 2019 and maybe they release a more (also expensive) Pro model without the 4k issues and also IBIS. That might change things totally. We will see.

    WRT Olympus - I decided to no longer invested in their m43 system, will continue using the EM1.2 but no more upgrades.

    I rather go any of the mirrorless FF paths - either Canon, Nikon or Panasonic - and this way I have to wait at least till early 2020 before I can see more clearly where each of them evolves their system. And maybe till then there could also happen the one or another discount or used body/lens that would influence that whole decision process significantly. Great that I am not in a hurry.

    Personally, I haven't liked any of the bodies from either Canon or Nikon for the reasons that I found the Canon grip to be uncomfortable and the Nikon body is essentially the same size (with a slightly larger grip) as the Sony body without all the benefits of the Sony bodies. In any case, my pinky finger and part of my ring finger still hang off the Nikon and there's no battery vertical grip option currently. The Panasonic looks to have the "best" body so far.

    The high point of the Canon RF IMO is the lens lineup (for photography), The 24-105, 28-70, and 50 are all great and exciting lenses. They are good enough on their own to "suffer" through all the body shortcomings of the EOS R (but I wouldn't consider the RP for myself ever) and hope an "EOS RX" comes by late 2019/early 2020 with a new sensor that more readily competes with the Sony and Panasonic offerings. The current sensors look a bit dated in comparison IMO (though capable). If I were to invest in this system I could see a 15-35, 28-70- 70-200, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 DS (though I'd prefer they made a 100/1.2 DS instead) kit as a complete (yet pricy) all-around kit. A 24-105 makes a great walk around lens and it's a good bit better than the EF version... same with the 50/1.2.

    Now I'm only mentioning this part because you referenced the video specs of the Canon. The only shortcomings of the RF lenses are that they are not optimized for video at all if you expect to be doing much video. I'd say these shortcomings apply to the Nikon Z lenses are well. They're pretty loud compared to lenses from Panasonic Micro 4/3 or Sony FE hybrid lenses. I expect that the Lumix S lenses will be optimized for video as well. So if the video performance is a priority, it may make sense to invest in an external audio solution to get your mics far away from your camera bodies in the meantime... Or expect to head more in the direction of the Panasonic since you're not considering Sony at all.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think that for most (if not all) intended purposes the small batteries of this new Canon are not a problem, it just requires a little foresight to change them out in a break when getting lower and not wait until they're fully depleted. At least that's what I do, and I've never missed a shot due to a depleted battery.
    I've found from experience that for me, a 200-shot battery life gets in the way sometimes; anything beyond 400 or so is fine. So my EOS M and my Canon S110 sometimes cause trouble - IIRC both have battery life specifications somewhere in the 200-250 range, and at least with my usage habits neither does any better than that. OTOH, using the same LP-E12 battery as the EOS M, my EOS SL1 easily exceeds the 400-shot threshold. So it's not the size of the battery per se, it's how efficiently the camera uses it given my viewing and exposure habits. Obviously a mirrorless or compact camera that has to run the sensor for viewing purposes is going to be more of a challenge in that respect.

    Based on my EOS M and S110 experience I'm not willing to assume that I will get more than the specified battery life. I need to try a camera for myself to know how it will perform given the way I work. But it's encouraging to see that Bryan Carnathan reports getting 571 exposures from a charge in the RP he was testing under what he calls "normal shooting scenarios":

    https://www.the-digital-picture.com/...on-EOS-RP.aspx

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    But it's encouraging to see that Bryan Carnathan reports getting 571 exposures from a charge in the RP he was testing under what he calls "normal shooting scenarios".
    Caveat emptor. Everyone's shooting scenarios differ.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Caveat emptor. Everyone's shooting scenarios differ.
    Agree!

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Here's one thing I don't understand:
    The RP is a camera with many limitations, and is probably as "barebones" as a digital camera will get these days. Because of these limitations, there has been a lot of criticism, and names like Canon RIP are appearing frequently.

    Another "barebones" camera that was released recently is the Fuji GFX 50R. It does admittedly have a stellar sensor, but apart from that, it's maybe even more limited than the RP. Still, and in spite of being 3.5 times as expensive as the RP, with lens prices to match, it's hailed as the greatest thing since sliced cucumber.

    Can somebody explain?

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Can somebody explain?
    In my opinion: too many parrots and too few independent thinkers.
    The other problem with posters on certain internet fora is the thought that everybody needs/wants/likes the same which also contributes to irrational on-line advice.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here's one thing I don't understand:
    The RP is a camera with many limitations, and is probably as "barebones" as a digital camera will get these days. Because of these limitations, there has been a lot of criticism, and names like Canon RIP are appearing frequently.

    Another "barebones" camera that was released recently is the Fuji GFX 50R. It does admittedly have a stellar sensor, but apart from that, it's maybe even more limited than the RP. Still, and in spite of being 3.5 times as expensive as the RP, with lens prices to match, it's hailed as the greatest thing since sliced cucumber.

    Can somebody explain?
    Well I believe that the EOS RP is receiving negative press for a variety of reasons.

    For one it’s the camera that no one probably asked for at this venture. Second it seems to reiterate that Canon is continuing its “protectional marketing” in the RF line compared to the EF/Cinema EOS like by hampering features that are likely possible in the camera - specifically video features. Third... the lens lineup with the bodies confuses most people. Canon has provided super high end lenses (a great thing IMO) and consumer/prosumer bodies (which leave much to be desired IMO). Fourth and this is likely the most important point, I think the reality is that this isn’t the camera most enthusiasts/influencers/photographers want because they been able to purchase similar cameras for awhile now.

    Now what’s evident is that both camera are capable (like most any camera) but I think people are wanting more/or at least different from their cameras now. I also think a certain expectation was placed on how Canon/Nikon were going to enter the Mirrorless world. I think many in the media (journalist/print/social/mass/ or otherwise) expected them to provide more competition to actually force the Sony/Fuji/Panasonic’s of the industry to go even further. Much of this is based on past criticisms that Canon and Nikon have made themselves towards other Mirrorless makers - fair or not. I don’t know that’s the case and I don’t know that it was fair to expect that of Canon and Nikon - they haven’t shown that was their mindset for some time now IMO.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Well I believe that the EOS RP is receiving negative press for a variety of reasons.

    For one it’s the camera that no one probably asked for at this venture. Second it seems to reiterate that Canon is continuing its “protectional marketing” in the RF line compared to the EF/Cinema EOS like by hampering features that are likely possible in the camera - specifically video features. Third... the lens lineup with the bodies confuses most people. Canon has provided super high end lenses (a great thing IMO) and consumer/prosumer bodies (which leave much to be desired IMO). Fourth and this is likely the most important point, I think the reality is that this isn’t the camera most enthusiasts/influencers/photographers want because they been able to purchase similar cameras for awhile now.

    Now what’s evident is that both camera are capable (like most any camera) but I think people are wanting more/or at least different from their cameras now. I also think a certain expectation was placed on how Canon/Nikon were going to enter the Mirrorless world. I think many in the media (journalist/print/social/mass/ or otherwise) expected them to provide more competition to actually force the Sony/Fuji/Panasonic’s of the industry to go even further. Much of this is based on past criticisms that Canon and Nikon have made themselves towards other Mirrorless makers - fair or not. I don’t know that’s the case and I don’t know that it was fair to expect that of Canon and Nikon - they haven’t shown that was their mindset for some time now IMO.
    Well you might be right, but for me as a photographer who is not interested in video all this hype about Canon RIP is a bit overblown. On the other hand it's not dissimilar to what happened to the early Sony A7's, people didn't understand what it could do and couldn't stop pointing out the negatives and overlooked (or dismissed) the positives and opportunities. Fortunately they caught on and now everybody is copying the idea. Reminds me of the famous Ella song They all laughed

    Hopefully it will be seen by the real users, as opposed to the so-called "opinion makers", a bare-bones camera without frills will have a certain charm for people who just want to take photos and for them the RP is a pretty good deal.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Well you might be right, but for me as a photographer who is not interested in video all this hype about Canon RIP is a bit overblown. On the other hand it's not dissimilar to what happened to the early Sony A7's, people didn't understand what it could do and couldn't stop pointing out the negatives and overlooked (or dismissed) the positives and opportunities. Fortunately they caught on and now everybody is copying the idea. Reminds me of the famous Ella song They all laughed

    Hopefully it will be seen by the real users, as opposed to the so-called "opinion makers", a bare-bones camera without frills will have a certain charm for people who just want to take photos and for them the RP is a pretty good deal.
    I don’t disagree with you.

    I think there is an expectation based upon some of what Canon and Nikon executives have said in the past in interviews regarding Mirrorless cameras and lack of “professional minded” design. Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji also seem to work without as many limitations pit into their cameras though there clearly are some.

    If we take Panasonic the natural limitation is sensor size of the Micro 4/3 cameras. The video codecs, nitrates, and video centric features are there. I expect the Limix S version to provide the same things with a bigger sensor/price. For Sony there’s some protecting of their digital cameras but in a lesser way. They target the indie, wedding, and “run & gun” markets which typically don’t want/need focus pullers. They run on the idea that the AF can be trusted.

    The reality few people cross-shop digital cinema cameras and and hybrid system cameras - which leads to some frustration directed at Canon IMO. Video is becoming a bigger market if we read the tea leaves of how content is being delivered. If we look at an organization like DPReview they’ve invested a lot more into video content by bringing over the Camera Store team into the cold, live video and streaming is becoming more of a thing whether it’s from a phone or studio setup. The interactive nature of being a more interconnected world is a reality for many people - specifically the next generation of photographers/content creators. It’s just where we are where for every teenage film snob hipster there is there’s probably another 100,000 people making Instagram Stories and Facebook Live videos. That’s where cameras need to compete on some levelto continue being relevant and if we look at corporate partnership programs this is where you see Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji excelling in partnering with existing content creators to perform community engagement and additional unpaid marketing of their products whether it’s a camera review, a training/how-to tutorial, or even just showing their workflow setups by documenting “a day in the life of” type videos.

    Just my opinion but Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji are targeting the upcoming generations with their products. They don’t have to protect legacy products and for all the talk of their cameras being “complicated computers” and not cameras we are talking about kids that grew up with iPhones, iPads, and computers. I happened to grow up in a time between the analog and digital age so I can easily go back and forth (IMO)... but when we talk about the next generation - complicated menus, interface, etc. is relative.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    What sets the RP apart from any other full frame mirrorless camera and most current cameras in general, is that it's meant to be a very basic camera and priced accordingly. It's the 300D all over again, and at a similar price point when inflation is taken into consideration. Compared to the 300D, which was a rather terrible camera, the RP is a do-it-all pro monster.

    All other full frame mirrorless cameras, including the original A7, have had at least "advanced amateur" aspirations. The RP cuts through all that crap and presents itself as the basic, no frills alternative. A full frame mirrorless that many can afford and most will understand how to use. Still, it seems to offer decent ergonomics and even a fully articulated LCD. I wouldn't hesitate taking one to use on paid jobs.

    Here's a little story that happened two days ago, and that describes how important the RP and its bigger brother may be:
    A friend of mine, who owns a Canon 50D with some lenses and a Sony hybrid video/stills E-mount camera with a zoom lens, asked me for advice. He was going to buy a new camera, better than either of the two, and preferably full frame. I actually recommended that he had a close look at the A7 III, since he seemed to be more satisfied with his Sony that the Canon.

    Then he went to the shop where I buy my camera gear, also on my recommendation. He quickly rejected the A7, partly because of a user interface that he didn't understand, and partly because he didn't want to use a third party adapter for his Canon lenses on the Sony. Then, the staff showed him the Canon R, and he was immediately sold. User interface resembled what he was used to from the 50D, and his good, old 70-300mm worked even better than on the 50D with the included adapter.

    Forget about cropped 4K video, lacking IBIS and limited DR. Most people want something they can understand, and they want to protect their investment in lenses etc. Last time I checked, Canon had a 49% market share in the ILC market (2017). My guess is that that won't change much. They make good products that are easy to use for most people, and their lenses are second to none.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    What sets the RP apart from any other full frame mirrorless camera and most current cameras in general, is that it's meant to be a very basic camera and priced accordingly. It's the 300D all over again, and at a similar price point when inflation is taken into consideration. Compared to the 300D, which was a rather terrible camera, the RP is a do-it-all pro monster.

    All other full frame mirrorless cameras, including the original A7, have had at least "advanced amateur" aspirations. The RP cuts through all that crap and presents itself as the basic, no frills alternative. A full frame mirrorless that many can afford and most will understand how to use. Still, it seems to offer decent ergonomics and even a fully articulated LCD. I wouldn't hesitate taking one to use on paid jobs.

    Here's a little story that happened two days ago, and that describes how important the RP and its bigger brother may be:
    A friend of mine, who owns a Canon 50D with some lenses and a Sony hybrid video/stills E-mount camera with a zoom lens, asked me for advice. He was going to buy a new camera, better than either of the two, and preferably full frame. I actually recommended that he had a close look at the A7 III, since he seemed to be more satisfied with his Sony that the Canon.

    Then he went to the shop where I buy my camera gear, also on my recommendation. He quickly rejected the A7, partly because of a user interface that he didn't understand, and partly because he didn't want to use a third party adapter for his Canon lenses on the Sony. Then, the staff showed him the Canon R, and he was immediately sold. User interface resembled what he was used to from the 50D, and his good, old 70-300mm worked even better than on the 50D with the included adapter.

    Forget about cropped 4K video, lacking IBIS and limited DR. Most people want something they can understand, and they want to protect their investment in lenses etc. Last time I checked, Canon had a 49% market share in the ILC market (2017). My guess is that that won't change much. They make good products that are easy to use for most people, and their lenses are second to none.
    Well I was only answering your question about why the camera is receiving the response it’s getting from many that have had hands on time with the camera.

    I don’t disagree that the RP is intended to be a basic camera... is even argue that it’s one of the “perfect” options for a “soccer mom/dad” or a traveler that wants something really small. The problem remains, the native lenses available aren’t priced accordingly for that casual shooter that will likely ONLY own one lens. For instance if you take a lower priced A7II - well they compete fairly on an even level except there are now lower priced alternatives for lenses. It’s a 4-5 year old camera though. That’s part of the “problem” with the RP. If you remember - the 6DII received something of a harsh reception as well. Add in the the RP locks you out of 4K shooting if you use an EF-S lens to overcome the crop for wider angle shooting and those types of decisions are why Canon receives negative press. It doesn’t do this on the EOS R... just the RP. So it’s a software decision to lock out part of the camera features... a lens shouldn’t prevent the camera from operating. Some may not care about 4K, IBIS, or limited DR... some do. It’s subjective.

    As for tour friend choosing a Canon over the Sony... the menus haven’t really changed all that much on Sony cameras going back to the A77/A99/NEX6 days almost 10 years ago. Nomenclature is different across all cameras and the EOS R is quite a bit different too if one hasn’t worked with a touch screen and is used to a joystick where the touchbar is. If one plans to stick with Cano EF lenses the. I don’t deny the Canon is probably a better choice but if one is heavily into video then perhaps newly designed Mirrorless lenses are a better option due to silent focusing.

    Regarding who has legacy market share - that matters more for those heavily invested in a brand’s lenses... it’s less of a factor if you’re likely to invest into the new lenses of a system if you’re a hybrid shooter or for someone starting off fresh. For me my decisions really come down most to the companies I trust to push the envelope, be most stable, and have a positive forecast in their growth segments. This is one reason I went with Sony originally (besides I really liked their color accuracy). It’s a reason I chose Panasonic too though I’m nervous about their long term future mainly because I know many people stick to Canon/Nikon due to familiarity more than anything. I haven’t owned a Canon in 11 years... I’ve never owned a Nikon and likely never would. I consider Fuji for many of the same reasons as Sony and Panasonic but they seem to be a safer choice as they’re “competing” in their own niche in reality. Nothing against Canon and Nikon but I just don’t feel like their all was put into what they’ve delivered compared to the competition for me. In fairness Nikon is attempting to push the market while working with Atomos on ProRES RAW.

    I’d argue (for a new shooter or someone brand agnostic) it’s better to dump the lenses now while you can get more value for them then later on when the market is going to be saturated with DSLR lenses that perhaps fewer people want and companies may not be inclined to buy/accept on a trade-in. Sometimes if you gotta “bleed” it’s best to get it over with as quickly as possible and for as little loss as possible. I personally don’t mind adapting for personal use or to get a specific look to an image but I wouldn’t rely on it for paid work myself... and yes every company has native adapters that work well with their OEM lenses. That has not really been a revelation until recently.

    All in all its just opinion. Doesn’t make that opinion a universal truth but it’s a real thing for many people that may be on the younger side of the spectrum that want a “do all” hybrid camera. Sony, Panasonic, and Fujifilm are leading the way there but thatve also done it longer. There will come a time (probably in the next 1-3 Years) where the differences will be more negligee but when I tested the newer Z and RF cameras they were comparable to my A7RII... which is to say they are very good but not quite as refined as the newest Sony, Panasonic, or Fuji bodies IMO. It’s not a knock on those cameras... just my opinion.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post

    Iíd argue (for a new shooter or someone brand agnostic) itís better to dump the lenses now while you can get more value for them then later on when the market is going to be saturated with DSLR lenses that perhaps fewer people want and companies may not be inclined to buy/accept on a trade-in. Sometimes if you gotta ďbleedĒ itís best to get it over with as quickly as possible and for as little loss as possible. I personally donít mind adapting for personal use or to get a specific look to an image but I wouldnít rely on it for paid work myself... and yes every company has native adapters that work well with their OEM lenses. That has not really been a revelation until recently.
    It's getting late for that already. The shop that I use, one of the veterans in the business here in Bangkok, only sells DSLR bodies and lenses on special order. They have gone 100% mirrorless, and the DSLR lenses on their used list, a couple of mine included, have mostly been there for a year or more. The only DSLR cameras that they list, and again, special order only, are the 5D IV and the D5. Sony and Fuji are mirrorless market leaders there so far, but it's early days yet.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's getting late for that already. The shop that I use, one of the veterans in the business here in Bangkok, only sells DSLR bodies and lenses on special order. They have gone 100% mirrorless, and the DSLR lenses on their used list, a couple of mine included, have mostly been there for a year or more. The only DSLR cameras that they list, and again, special order only, are the 5D IV and the D5. Sony and Fuji are mirrorless market leaders there so far, but it's early days yet.
    Iím speaking mostly from a USA perspective. The local shop here deals heavily in Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, and Olympus for Mirrorless. The Nikon Z sold pretty well on pre-orders but sales slowed heavily after the first few months. EOS R doesnít move quickly here (on account of prices of the body and lenses) according to the store manager. Also many people that are interested in Mirrorless are taking the opportunity to sell their Canon/Nikon systems and are moving to Sony FE or Fuji XT3 if they donít plan to stick with DSLR lenses. Many places here are still buying DSLR lenses but Iím sure itíll get to a point where the market is over saturated with them here. I think Canon will still make a 5Dmk5 or 1Dx3 with whatever sensor goes into the pro RF body but that may be the last hurrah from them for pro DSLR.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Iím speaking mostly from a USA perspective. The local shop here deals heavily in Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, and Olympus for Mirrorless. The Nikon Z sold pretty well on pre-orders but sales slowed heavily after the first few months. EOS R doesnít move quickly here (on account of prices of the body and lenses) according to the store manager. Also many people that are interested in Mirrorless are taking the opportunity to sell their Canon/Nikon systems and are moving to Sony FE or Fuji XT3 if they donít plan to stick with DSLR lenses. Many places here are still buying DSLR lenses but Iím sure itíll get to a point where the market is over saturated with them here. I think Canon will still make a 5Dmk5 or 1Dx3 with whatever sensor goes into the pro RF body but that may be the last hurrah from them for pro DSLR.
    Some of us are still hoping for a Nikon F7, compatible with the latest lenses

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    All other full frame mirrorless cameras, including the original A7, have had at least "advanced amateur" aspirations. The RP cuts through all that crap and presents itself as the basic, no frills alternative.
    You might be right, but I'd be interested what you think the "frills" or "aspirations" are that the RP is lacking that were present in the A7 at launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Then he went to the shop where I buy my camera gear, also on my recommendation. He quickly rejected the A7, partly because of a user interface that he didn't understand, .....
    I hear this a lot but for me it's just what you're used too, and obviously a lot more people are used to a Canon UI. On Sony I can dream the UI and menu (from the A7/A6000 onward) even though I hardly use it, since 99% of what I need is either on a programmable button or under the Fn knob. I've used Canon and Nikon, but if you hand me one of those today I'm as lost in there as a Canon/Nikon shooter is in the Sony UI's. And don't get me started on Olympus, I'm sure if I had one I'd master it in time, but for a novice it's hard to navigate, especially the 1/2 switch which changes almost every function on the body and in the menu is probably the most difficult concept I've seen on a camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Forget about cropped 4K video, lacking IBIS and limited DR. Most people want something they can understand, and they want to protect their investment in lenses etc. Last time I checked, Canon had a 49% market share in the ILC market (2017). My guess is that that won't change much. They make good products that are easy to use for most people, and their lenses are second to none.
    Fully agree on this one, It's only people on fora that worry about stuff missing, for the vast majority of the consumers these things don't really matter.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    You might be right, but I'd be interested what you think the "frills" or "aspirations" are that the RP is lacking that were present in the A7 at launch.
    The first paragraph of Sony USA's press release at launch of the A7 and A7R:

    SAN DIEGO, Oct. 15, 2013 – Sony’s new A7 and A7R digital cameras are the world’s smallest full-frame interchangeable lens models. Highly anticipated by professional photographers and imaging enthusiasts alike, the two new cameras offer an unmatched combination of creativity, customizability and portability.

    Further down:

    Designed for professional photographers and highly advanced enthusiasts, the new A7R model is the world’s smallest and lightest full-frame interchangeable lens camera.

    The complete release:

    https://www.dpreview.com/articles/99...ras-a7-and-a7r

    Here's Canon:

    MELVILLE, N.Y., February 13, 2019 – Responding to the demand from amateur and advanced amateur photographers for an entry-level, full-frame mirrorless camera, Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced the second camera in the EOS R lineup, the EOS RP. The EOS RP is designed for photographers looking to step up from Canon’s APS-C cameras: the EOS Rebel, EOS M and the EOS 80D, into the world of full-frame mirrorless photography.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The first paragraph of Sony USA's press release at launch of the A7 and A7R:

    SAN DIEGO, Oct. 15, 2013 – Sony’s new A7 and A7R digital cameras are the world’s smallest full-frame interchangeable lens models. Highly anticipated by professional photographers and imaging enthusiasts alike, the two new cameras offer an unmatched combination of creativity, customizability and portability.

    Further down:

    Designed for professional photographers and highly advanced enthusiasts, the new A7R model is the world’s smallest and lightest full-frame interchangeable lens camera.

    The complete release:

    https://www.dpreview.com/articles/99...ras-a7-and-a7r

    Here's Canon:

    MELVILLE, N.Y., February 13, 2019 – Responding to the demand from amateur and advanced amateur photographers for an entry-level, full-frame mirrorless camera, Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced the second camera in the EOS R lineup, the EOS RP. The EOS RP is designed for photographers looking to step up from Canon’s APS-C cameras: the EOS Rebel, EOS M and the EOS 80D, into the world of full-frame mirrorless photography.
    Thanks, but I'm not so much interested in marketing mumbo-jumbo, especially since the Sony was the first full frame mirrorless in 2013 and Canon is the umpteens FF mirrorless 6 years later. Different markets call for different communications. I'm more looking at features, options and frills that the camera's have. Any of these where you think the original A7 could do a lot more than the RP that would scare off amateurs and "advanced" amateurs? I don't see a lot.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Thanks, but I'm not so much interested in marketing mumbo-jumbo, especially since the Sony was the first full frame mirrorless in 2013 and Canon is the umpteens FF mirrorless 6 years later. Different markets call for different communications. I'm more looking at features, options and frills that the camera's have. Any of these where you think the original A7 could do a lot more than the RP that would scare off amateurs and "advanced" amateurs? I don't see a lot.
    No, in my eyes, it was probably a less capable camera than the RP is. The A7 is after all 6 years old. The big difference however is that they marketed it as a professional tool, while Canon markets the RP as an entry level, amateur tool.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    No, in my eyes, it was probably a less capable camera than the RP is. The A7 is after all 6 years old. The big difference however is that they marketed it as a professional tool, while Canon markets the RP as an entry level, amateur tool.
    I think that's more caused by the times and market in which the camera was launched and has less to do with the basic attributes of the camera and/or attracting/scaring customers.

    The A7 was the first FF mirrorless, the most advanced at that time (by definition) and Sony knows that "amateurs" and "advanced amateurs" would not be hesitant to try a tool that was marketed as professional (but actually wasn't) if the price is right, and the entry price was still way below what the high-end mirrorless goes by today (and only ~25% above the RP entry price).

    Canon comes 6 years later with its RP in an established market where they can't play this trick anymore which for me explains the lower marketing pitch. In my mind, other than the crippled video, there's not a lot "basic" about this camera vs. other lower end or slightly older mirrorless FF cameras (that can still be bought new today).
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Canon comes 6 years later with its RP in an established market where they can't play this trick anymore which for me explains the lower marketing pitch. In my mind, other than the crippled video, there's not a lot "basic" about this camera vs. other lower end or slightly older mirrorless FF cameras (that can still be bought new today).
    This is the root of it all. Canon came to the game late AND the video is crippled. This may not matter to people that are 100% photographers but it does matter to many hybrid and video shooters. There’s a greater negativity applied when the decisions seem to be largely software based. 4K doesn’t allow one to use Canon’s Dual Pixel AF and 1080p only provides a 30fps option while 4K provides a 24fps option. It should be easy enough to include 24 FPS for 1080p you’d think. The strange behavior with using EF-S cropped lenses exists too - and this is why it’s receiving a lot of negative press.

    As a straight photography camera it’s probably fine but if it were my money it would be a hard sell to buy this over a XT3 for nearly the same money, a A7II for about 25% less, or a A7RII for less than 25% more... maybe even a D750 would be another option for about the same money too though the video will probably leave one wanting too.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    I am not in the position to own yet another new camera but this is certainly very aggressively priced and seems to be a lot of camera for the money. Having just purchased an X-T3 I think Canon are aiming to stop people going Fujifilm rather than trying to compete with Nikon or Panasonic. I can imagine a lot of people being tempted by this camera as a second body, or second system.

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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I am not in the position to own yet another new camera but this is certainly very aggressively priced and seems to be a lot of camera for the money. Having just purchased an X-T3 I think Canon are aiming to stop people going Fujifilm rather than trying to compete with Nikon or Panasonic. I can imagine a lot of people being tempted by this camera as a second body, or second system.

    LouisB
    I donít disagree with you... the timing of the launch is just baffling to me given that outside of the 35mm Macro theyíve only announced/released Canon RF L glass. Seems like a pro body is needed given that pro lenses are what are being developed nearly exclusively. Fuji X has appropriately priced lens option with their small primes and wide range of pro (red badge) zooms and consumer oriented ones as well.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I donít disagree with you... the timing of the launch is just baffling to me given that outside of the 35mm Macro theyíve only announced/released Canon RF L glass. Seems like a pro body is needed given that pro lenses are what are being developed nearly exclusively. Fuji X has appropriately priced lens option with their small primes and wide range of pro (red badge) zooms and consumer oriented ones as well.
    For me, as a travel photographer (mostly), I don't need anything more "pro" than one of these two bodies, the very cheap RP or the now reduced R. Ergonomics seem great, viewfinder is apparently good enough, they have a fully articulated LCD and most important of all: the lenses are to die for.

    The 28-70mm f/2 would be a fantastic "3 primes in one" lens for travel photography, and I could keep MFT for telephoto, macro etc. There's a sponsored video on dpr now where the photographer seems to use the R and the 28-70mm mostly. Sponsored or not, the results are great:

    https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4214...in-new-zealand

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I am not in the position to own yet another new camera but this is certainly very aggressively priced and seems to be a lot of camera for the money. Having just purchased an X-T3 I think Canon are aiming to stop people going Fujifilm rather than trying to compete with Nikon or Panasonic. I can imagine a lot of people being tempted by this camera as a second body, or second system.

    LouisB
    Exactly. One Canon body with one or two large aperture lenses for situations when that is needed, and MFT for anything else.

  48. #48
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For me, as a travel photographer (mostly), I don't need anything more "pro" than one of these two bodies, the very cheap RP or the now reduced R. Ergonomics seem great, viewfinder is apparently good enough, they have a fully articulated LCD and most important of all: the lenses are to die for.

    The 28-70mm f/2 would be a fantastic "3 primes in one" lens for travel photography, and I could keep MFT for telephoto, macro etc. There's a sponsored video on dpr now where the photographer seems to use the R and the 28-70mm mostly. Sponsored or not, the results are great:

    https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4214...in-new-zealand
    The lenses are indeed excellent but that’s EXAVTLY the point I’m making.

    Casual photographers typically aren’t spending $4k+ on an entry level camera and pro lens. This is where a pro body makes sense. ESSENTIALLY canon wants this to be the equivalent of their “FF Mirrorless Rebel” but there aren’t any cheap native options. Even the 24-105 which is excellent too will set you back another $1200 or so... and when we are talking $2k+ for a casual shooter... they’ll likely pass it up for a cheaper DSLR, Mirrorless, or more likely their camera phone.

    regarding ergonomics... I found the EOS R surprisingly uncomfortable for me despite thinking I’d love it at first. Every other FF camera feels better in the hand to me whether it’s the Sony or Nikon... and likely Panasonic too once I have it in hand.
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Casual photographers typically arenít spending $4k+ on an entry level camera and pro lens. This is where a pro body makes sense. ESSENTIALLY canon wants this to be the equivalent of their ďFF Mirrorless RebelĒ but there arenít any cheap native options.
    No entry level R lenses. Perhaps that is why they are bundling the RP with an EF lens and adapter.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Canon RP, maybe it's all I need

    For me the RP is simply too far stripped down. The R for a good discount would change that and would be a great camera if I needed a FF mirrorless now. However the restrictions with no IBIS and 4k video are still too steep for me, so this requires waiting for their next (PRO) model that will hopefully overcome these.

    This seems to be the general situation/dilemma for me with the introduction of all the latest FF mirrorless cameras - Nikon Z has (still) not the AF capabilities I need, Canon is missing IBIS and useable 4k, Panasonic is far too much on the PRO side making these cameras too large, heavy and expensive for what I want.

    The R lenses (especially that announced small size 2.8/70-200) are just to die for, also that 2/28-70, the 1.2/85 and the 15-35 would make my dream kit forever and make me waiting when Canon will finally introduce this new Pro level R camera. I could not care less about entry level lenses, although I am pretty sure they will soon add some of them.

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