Rodenstock 20 Percent Price Increase from 1st March

[f8orbust]

This just in from Linhof and Studio (great UK dealer):

Given the current global difficulties from raw materials to shipping and everything in-between, it will come as no surprise that we have seen extra price increases from most manufacturers lately.

However, Linhof Studio wanted to bring to your attention a substantial price increase on all Rodenstock Digital and Enlarging lenses. It will be an average of a 20% increase on our website prices and is effective from March 1st 2023.

Should you be considering a new lens in AU mount, X shutter or (for a short availability period) Copal 0 shutters, we urge you to consider ordering them before the 20th FEBRUARY.

Supply may be a further 8 to 10 weeks and only a small deposit is required when placing the order with the balance payable only when we are ready to ship.

I assume this will knock on to mounted lenses (A/S, Alpa, Cambo) ... so just how much is that mounted 138mm going to be now ?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I had mentioned this in another thread at one point - it is a really bad development as we are already in a recessionary environment and Rodenstock prices have increased to a point that lenses cost more than backs. Add to this a weak dollar and prices get insane.

A new x shutter 32 HR is like 16k USD now ...

Rodenstock's photo optics division Qioptiq is just increasing the margins to be in line with the B2B margins of the group as the company is prepping for an IPO ... they are also PE-owned. Given they have a monopoly they came to the conclusion that the gains of upping the prices by 20% outweigh the lost revenue, meaning sales overall must be quite low (ie just a few million per year or just a thousand optics 3000-4000 EUR a pop per year) ....

I can understand if people now just sell their P1 gear as they've been priced out and move on to Hassy or Fuji ... as remember in a Cambo X shutter optic you have three parties on top of the manufacturer wanting a cut: Rodenstock and then: Phase with the shutter and Cambo with the mount plus the dealer. Meaning 4k lens price, 2-3k Cambo cut, 2-3k Phase cut, 2k dealer cut ... so the lens in itself is not that expensive, but the way it is sold with a gazillion intermediaries makes it too expensive for most.

X shutter 138mm is approaching the 20k mark, especially against the backdrop of a weakened dollar as Rodenstock is invoicing in EUR.

There's one good news element to it, though: used lens prices must also go up.

For example, wouldn't be surprised if at one point an SK43XL, which is arguably better than the Rodenstock 40 HR, goes directionally towards 10k because the reality is Rodenstock's new lenses cost 10k+ nowadays and the 43XL cost like 6kish but more than 10 years ago. If you adjust for inflation and look at manufacturing price increases a new price of a 43XL today would also be 10-12k as well ... let alone absolute optical marvels like the 28 XL which cost 7-8k back in the day.

Maybe I can dig out an old price list from 2012 to see how much the 32 HR cost vs. today - I think it must be something like 6-7k vs. 11-12k EUR today or something like that ...

 

[JeffK]

Nice, maybe I’ll list my 70mm sb17 Alpagon after Mar 1st! Gotta sell the ALPA bodies first though.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I would keep everything Alpa, but maybe that's just me – one might regret it at one point especially if prices keep on rising due to the rampant inflation. No matter what happens, there will most likely be a better P1 back at one point in the future (maybe even with more resolution, but clearly not imminent) and the Rodenstock HR lenses with tech cam bodies are still the highest quality option available. I've been down the path of trying old analog lenses via the Arca system on modern backs, but it is just not the same if you can foot the bill for the last-gen early 2010s HR and SK optics - to this day they they are the benchmark for high-end photography with large image circles for digital, apo correction and high micro contrast.

The IC is bigger, yes, but the resolution is lower, there's smearing at the edges of wide angles, and in general, it is more convenient to just do one-shots or quick stitches with HR lenses and be done with it and have edge-to-edge sharp images that you then can post process. It is not easy in the field to do 9 part stitches within the IC of an old Grandagon lens and the result then is not thaat great compared to just taking an HR lens and doing a quick two-part stitch.

It is just a shame that Rodenstock is run from the perspective of a B2B provider meaning margin requirements are now being pushed down to the consumer.

The structure of the industry is also sub-optimal with not direct-to-consumer brands, really. This means too many intermediaries ruining the end consumer price.

Let's just hope that all involved parties can still operate sustainably and that better times will come soon enough.

 

[f8orbust]

Having had a look at Sony's current sensor line up it's difficult to see what an IQ5 would actually entail. A drop in resolution but with the addition of a global shutter perhaps? Is that what folks want? I'm not so sure.

Yup, sure the huge price rises will keep the used lens market buoyant. Here in the UK the plain old vanilla R/S 40 in Alpa SB (aperture only) mount is currently £7400 + Tax new, so that's going to be almost £9k from March 1st. Crazy if you ask me, but then again I used to think the LF film ecosystem was pricey. Looking back, it was a bloody 'bargain' !

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I assume this will knock on to mounted lenses (A/S, Alpa, Cambo) ... so just how much is that mounted 138mm going to be now ?

Linhof Studio is selling the lenses unmounted directly; Cambo, Alpa, Phase already have a margin and they need to decide how much of the increase to "eat" and how much to "pass on"; I think we'll see a knock-on effect with some manufacturers, but to a lesser degree, ie less than 20% which I assume is the 1:1 pass-through impact for a dealer selling just unmounted lenses as an additional option (e.g. for view cameras which can mount Copal 0) - Linhofstudio was always THE place to get "naked" HR lenses ...

Since the margin increase is on the first item of the value chain, ie say the 4k lens, it is proportionally not going to increase the price by 20% of a 10k marked-up three intermediary price point; meaning: if Rodenstock wants 4800 for a 32 HR now insteast of previously 4000, it means that if Cambo, Phase each "swallow" 400 the price will stay the same or it means maybe just below 10% on a plus 10k price point. It could also be a mixed thing: passing on 400 from the 800 increase and swallowing 400. That would mean a 4-5% price increase on the end price if you assume a 10k price point.

20% is a lot though; if SK were still in the game they wouldn't be able to squeeze their monopolistic position so hard. And raw materials price increase is just a pretense - there might be a component of this, but Rodenstock is just prepping the bride for the IPO meaning consumer photo lens margins need to go up to the level of the industry project stuff which is high-margin (e.g. defense, drone applications, etc.)

 

[doccdiamond]

If the IPO drives the price increase it is redicoulous and might narrow the market niche even more. The large/medium format lens is just a so small division with very limited impact on the whole organisation . There might be a time/ risk to think about closing or selling this tiny part.
Very special situation with a monopolist which is at the end from an absolut revenue perspective not even interested in this niche. An MBO of this division would be an interesting idea…

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The problem is that on paper photo is a business unit, but the same engineers working on B2B stuff would work on new lens designs - ie atm they just sell a portfolio of existing designs and don’t develop anything new - an MBO wouldn’t work because the engineers would stay with the mother company and continue to work on B2B projects.

The issue is talent shortage and far more attractive B2B projects to work on than consumer photo stuff with just a few million of revenues.

One industry contract might have the value of a whole year of selling down consumer lenses but with the nice benefit of being significantly higher margin and upfront cash …

The consumer stuff is basically just turning on the machines in batches and selling existing designs while the optics engineers which would be needed to design new stuff are busy with far more attractive projects from a RoI perspective.

Still, what is worrying is that we have a weird mix of rising lens prices, lack of innovation from P1 and recessionary environment which is not at all good for the health of the high end MFD ecosystem.

I mean look at P1 - XF is not being developed anymore (55 MK II anyone?), XT2 with more shift is delayed indefinitely, in camera LCC or auto LCC is Not coming and C1 mobile still doesn’t support phase backs …

 

[DNN]

Arca is having a sale on certain Rodenstock lenses, either mounted for a view camera on Arca board or in an R-line mount. Contact your local Arca dealer. through Feb 27. I am not an Arca Dealer, just a user that received the flyer.

 

[ThdeDude]

There's one good news element to it, though: used lens prices must also go up.

eBay offerings of the Fuji Fujinon C 600mm F/11.5 is hovering around $4K, while the Fuji Fujinon T 600mm F12 is hovering around $400.- (I assume when available new this was reversed, the far more complex Fujinon T was way more expensive than the simple, lightweight Fujinon C 600mm.)

The Fujinon C 600mm is a great lens for 11x14" (and also for 8x10"). And hence there is an existing demand for the Fujinon C 600mm, but little or none for the Fujinon T 600mm.

I forgot what I wanted to say here.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

eBay offerings of the Fuji Fujinon C 600mm F/11.5 is hovering around $4K, while the Fuji Fujinon T 600mm F12 is hovering around $400.- I assume when available new the far bigger and heavier Fujinon T was considerably more expensive than the simple, lightweight Fujinon C 600mm.

The Fujinon C 600mm is a great lens for 11x14". And hence there is an existing demand for the Fujinon C 600mm, but little or none for the Fujinon T 600mm.

I forgot what I wanted to say.

What's your point, exactly? The F12 is a telephoto design with the prime advantage being that it has a shorter focal flange distance 380mm vs. 570 of the F11.5 version.

It is also more heavy, and has a substantially smaller IC than the F11.5 -> 260 vs. 600mm; on top the F11.5 is said to be sharper. The F11.5 has always been more expensive as it has tremendous IC, is compact, and very sharp. The F11.5 is on all counts better except FFL ...

These are fundamentally different things ... a weird comparison.

The point is that the HR lenses as well as the excellent SK lenses 28, 43, 60, 120 will hold value very well and if the HR list price goes up, used prices will go up too, at one point.

If a new 32 HR is 11k, then the used one will be more like 7-8k, rather than 5k ...

 

[ThdeDude]

My point is that lenses don't have an intrinsic value. They are worth whatever someone is willing to pay.

Maybe in twenty years people will pay $$$ for the "Holy Trinity" (ALPA's sales pitch) 32mm, 50mm, and 90mm Digaron-W(S) lenses because they are the most modern lenses covering 6x7 rollfilm!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

My point is that lenses don't have an intrinsic value. They are worth whatever someone is willing to pay.

Maybe in twenty years people will pay $$$ for the "Holy Trinity" (ALPA's sales pitch) 32mm, 50mm, and 90mm Digaron-W(S) lenses because they are the most modern lenses covering 6x7 rollfilm!

Ok, as long as there are still people shooting tech cams with digital sensors the HR lenses will have a high value as they are the best available optics - I don't see that changing so fast, especially with seemingly the new Hassy 100 megapixel back around the corner which should come in around or below the 10k mark. Rodenstock lenses are still the only in-production high res tech cam lenses with 70+ ICs available ...

 

[JeffK]

That new mythical 100mb hassy will be saviour to the industry. It will drive used tech cam body sales and give life and demand to large format lenses - even non HR, because of the BSI design of the sensors. Folks should start buying up used gear now while they’re available.

 

[ThdeDude]

That new mythical 100mb hassy will be saviour to the industry.

You are not a bit exaggerating!

But I agree that HB's line of DB's suggests an ongoing commitment. The next step would be something along the lines of the IMX661 offering also electronic global shutter and 127 MP. Such a DB would even pull ahead of the current IQ4-150.

 

[buildbot]

You are not a bit exaggerating!

But I agree that HB's line of DB's suggests an ongoing commitment. The next step would be something along the lines of the IMX661 offering also electronic global shutter and 127 MP. Such a DB would even pull ahead of the current IQ4-150.

Phase does sell a camera with this sensor! Though you’ll need to add your own screen/computer to use it…

 

[Smoothjazz]

My biggest concern is that these companies, especially Rodenstock, Phase, and Hasselblad will have smaller and smaller margins, sell fewer products at increasing cost, and become economically insolvent. We need these companies to continue to produce the products we need- think of how the film and large format markets have changed in the last decade.
I support them as much as I can, but these lenses and cameras are getting very expensive!
I just ordered the Rodenstock 90mm HR lens which may be my last purchase for a long long time.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

None of these firms are at risk of becoming insolvent - Phase is making good money with B2B, ie industrial applications, Rodenstock is doing also super well on the industrial side with more projects than engineers and Hasselblad just focuses on their X camera which I would think sells well; on top they are part of DJI which is arguably also a safety net.

It is just that there is no innovation in MFD because the profits are too low compared to industrial applications and no investment capital flows into high end photo. They will continue to sell in low volumes, probably at higher and higher prices over time.

Phase One has fully optimized the photo business at this stage. Warehouse is in Japan, distribution solely via dealers and everything is managed via a digital order system. If you are dealer and someone wants an IQ4 achromatic, then you, as a dealer, "order it" in their online store and five days later it comes from Japan. They are cutting the remaining on the ground sales force so it becomes a super lean organization. At this stage, it is seemingly is a warehouse in Japan with outsourced production and minimal managerial overhead in Europe. By pushing everything onto the dealers the have no costs for distribution besides the cut they give dealers which I assume is 25-35% on a digital back. Of that then the dealer sees how much he can pass onto the client to make a sale. Long gone are the days where you have people from Leaf, Mamiya, P1 visiting photographers at their studios to demo gear over a whole afternoon. That's seemingly a 2010s thing ...

Innovation has been reduced to a minimum; XT2, ie one with more shift would be super easy to do, but they don't do it for whatever reason. Cambo would just have to re-badge one of their larger bodies, but probably the fee to commission that is even too high for Phase in the current market.

Tilt for other XT lenses? Should be possible after 40 HR. Any factory upgrades available for the 32 HR / 50 HR / 70 HR? Nope - why? ... Probably too much cost to pay Cambo to draw up the tilt helical mount variants for the other focal lengths ... which goes to show how low volume the market must be atm because in all honesty it shouldn't be too much work for Cambo to design tiltable XT helical mounts based off of the 40 HR re-design they did last year.

Hopefully, some innovation is coming this year, but who knows given the slow pace of innovation in the recent years?

 

[UlbabrabB]

It seems like the MFD will become the next film market…

 

[DNN]

Arca is having a sale on certain Rodenstock lenses, either mounted for a view camera on Arca board or in an R-line mount. Contact your local Arca dealer. through Feb 27. I am not an Arca Dealer, just a user that received the flyer.

Sale is only through Rod Klukas - contact him directly for details.
Don