Advice (technical) camera paired with Credo 60 and/or H6D-100C

[marchaers]

Hey everyone!

To cut an extremely long story short I've decided due to some good and not so good life changing circumstances to take a 'break' the coming 6 - 12 months. I'm currently on a short vacation with my family and by accident shot the accompanied image on a Phase One XF + Credo 60 back. It (finally) made me truly fall in love with the thrill of getting 'that feeling' when it comes to landscape photography. That's coming from a hardcore (commercial) portrait & fashion photographer.

Due to the above circumstances my wife and I have decided to considering getting ourselves a camper to travel around Europe. Mostly to take that much needed 'time away' but also for me to discover landscape photography.

The decision to use Medium Format is set in stone for me. I own a Hasselblad H6D-100C and the XF + Credo 60 back. I'm currently in talks of getting a (very cheap) Aptus II 12R as a 'back up' for the Credo. Unless it absolutely blows it away image wise lol. If anyone has a Credo 80 for sale I'm very willing to talk! That one has the preference over the Aptus but is hard to come across.

On to the actual question

I've looked at some possibilities to enable tilt/shift for my camera's but more importantly sharp(er) glass to work with. It really makes that much of a difference for me and I can easily see the 'faults' of the 'normal' photo lenses compared to what I'm used to seeing on large format. It never mattered doing portraiture. But in this case it does.

Could you recommend a view/technical camera to pair with the above backs? I'm aware of the Hasselblad's power source situation. At the moment I'm looking at the following:

- Hasselblad HTS 1.5 Adapter
- Actus DB2
- Toyo VX23D

It's very important that I have the option to shoot long(er) lenses as well. I might get into the extreme wide angle stuff along the way. But for me when talking about the 'normal FF' equivalent I'd love to have the option to work mostly with 24mm, 35mm, and 100 or even 200mm lenses.

How would you guys go about this conundrum? Absolute first world problems going on here but I could use some guidance.

Thanks!

Marc

 

[Alan]

How are you planning to focus a Credo 60/80/12r on a tech camera?

 

[marchaers]

How are you planning to focus a Credo 60/80/12r on a tech camera?

Well now that you asked that question you have me wondering/researching.

I (blindly) assumed using the Credo's live view mode would be an option. But I'm reading on other pages as I type that it's pretty unusable. I'd prefer going for a good live view in any case. So maybe that pushes it a bit more towards the Hassy + power source? I don't care so much about the luggage. Unless there's a better solution to the focusing situation.

I could consider buying into the newer CMOS backs from Phase One. But that would be an extremely expensive jump as I won't be using it commercially.

 

[Alan]

Or rather than a rail camera like the Actus or Toyo, look at plate-type camera like Arca R or Alpa with usable scale focusing.

 

[anwarp]

I have an iq260 that I have converted to “full spectrum “. I have successfully used the live view to focus IR images on my Actus. It’s slooooow, but doable.
I use a variable nd filter to get a usable screen in bright light.

 

[doccdiamond]

Or rather than a rail camera like the Actus or Toyo, look at plate-type camera like Arca R or Alpa with usable scale focusing.

That is a very well working combo- ALPA + IQ260/Credo60. I use my IQ260 always in combination with a Leica Disco and dial in the distance with the ALPA HPF-scale/irng on each lens - very precise and well working. As mentioned live-view is very slow (but doable), but I only use it in very rare cases e.g. for Macro-shots.

 

[marchaers]

Hey everyone!

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. I've been digging quite deep into all possibilities ranging from your suggested ALPA combo's up to even some available Cambo gear I could find online locally.

To be fair, I absolutely do want to dive into the view/techno/plate type of system. But I've learned from many real life experiences (lol) that if I intend to go that route I should do it right the first time going in. Because I'll probably lose a lot of (re)selling money.

I'm figuring out that it needs a lot and especially proper investigation and research as there are so many options available. But there's even more to learn about lens boards, lens types, camera capabilities, tilt-shift limitations and also even compatibility with the right backs. I'm going to 'invest' more time rather than money - learning rather than buying.

To bridge the gap I'll invest in the Hasselblad TS 1.5 solution as it's a low cost investment (found one €1500,- second hand) and I'll use the lenses (that are compatible) that I have for my commercial work anyways. I'll take this set (including the phase one + credo) to Norway end of August. So I'll get a bit more acquainted with tilting/shifting as a whole lol. Still a very young grass-hopper indeed when it comes to that hehe.

In the meantime I'd love to share thoughts in this thread about anything and everything fun to explore. Because I am willing to seriously invest (even in a bit more capable back) if I end up loving landscape photography enough that I'd be able to do it for a long term on our camping adventures.

Thanks again all and if you have any (extra) thoughts I'm open and willing to learn .

Marc

 

[Alkibiades]

If you want a system that allow you to use exteme wide and long lenses, that is very compact and light, have the best focusing screen ever made- if you want to use CCD based backs- so Linhof Techno will be the right camera for you. You can get a used one in mint condition for very atractive prices.
Cambo actus has some limitations at very wide lenses, also movements are limitated, arca swiss is also a good option but more larger. If you want a good and cheap back with great live view then go for 50 mp back, Leafor phase one, they are a better deal

 

[cunim]

After jumping headlong down various rabbit holes, I have decided that my key gear factor is flexibility. I try to make the same lenses work for all applications, thereby controlling expense. Concrete example: I started with Hasselblad bodies/lenses and Alpa/Rodenstock. Now I am on Arca Swiss and Phase. The back switch was because I could make the P1 work better with non P1 front ends. That was just the way it was back then and a Blad back might be fine now. Don't know. The more important aspect of this setup is that my R mount lenses go back and forth between a full view camera (monolith) and a plate camera (RM3di), so the same very expensive Rodenstock lenses are used in the studio and in the landscape. The lenses matter. The cameras and backs just to need to accept those lenses.

So, it comes down to whether you want full movements in studio. If you think that is useful, push flexibility up the priority list. I try to avoid having two completely discrete lens families, one for the studio and one for other things. Do I wish Alpa made a view camera so I could have remained with them? Yep but not going to happen so I will just gaze enviously at that lovely Alpa stuff.. Am I fine with the AS products? Yep.

 

[Geoff]

Techno is a fine answer - as it uses LF lenses on Linhof boards, of which there are many available at all price points. I've had good luck with some $300 lenses, if one only uses them as they best work.
The tricky part of this is determining what are the important criteria to you - and often these are not understood until one is deep into this, or they change. Something like a Techno gives a good tradeoff between max flexibility and easy different uses. The other main path is the pancake cameras (Alpa, Arca, Cambo) that take a different approach, and are more precise, but also more limiting - and require special lens mountings. Most people go this route.

As to the back - used a CCD Credo 60 for years, and liked it a lot. Forgiving with movements. About a year ago tested it against an IQQ 3100 and CFV, and found its still lovely at base ISO. The live view is sort of/kind of barely usable (stop down if in bright light), but live view on a CMOS back is night and day different, totally game changing. Can't go back. But the CCD back has its charm, just not at high ISO.

One last thing - there is the "proper" way to do this - typically folks aim for more precision, key if shifting. But there are other ways, off the beaten path. Having fun with a digital back on a TK23, and while not precise enough for stitching, its great for max movements, extension (either macro or tele), and just "banging around". Its not much discussed, nor on anyone's A list, but there are other ways to work.

 

[dchew]

In the first article I wrote, I spent some time on the difference between using a back that has live view and one that does not. Here is the excerpt:
"While camera type and brand selection are beyond the scope of this article, there is one feature associated with the sensor being used that significantly impacts the choice between the pancake or view camera type: available live view on the digital back. Pancake cameras were developed to solve one basic problem associated with using a medium format sensor: how to accurately focus.
The traditional method of focusing on a ground glass has two problems: First, the image from such a small format is too small and dark. Second, focus needs to be incredibly accurate because the capture format is so small compared to 8×10 or even 4×5. The ground glass and digital back may not even be registered at the same distance. The tolerances of these cameras are in the range of 0.01mm. In fact, both Arca-Swiss and Alpa developed very precise designs specifically to solve the difficulties associated with accurate focus. If you have an older digital back with a CCD sensor, then live view, if even available, is at best cumbersome and difficult to use. That makes using the second group of bellows-based technical cameras a real challenge. Not impossible, but more difficult. If you have a newer digital back with a CMOS-based sensor, the world is at your fingertips; live view solves the focusing problem in spades, and if you plan on a large stable of lenses, the bellows type design is significantly cheaper because you do not have to pay for proprietary lens mounts."

As @cunim pointed out, rail / bellows systems are usually preferred in the studio, while "pancake" or helical systems are usually preferred for field work. That being said, there are many folks here who use rail / bellows systems very successfully in the field. Most of them by now are using CMOS backs. I would make one strong suggestion: If you want to use a rail / bellows system in the field with a CCD back, I urge you to try it out first. Your comments about wanting good lenses implies you want to get the most out of those lenses. That will be more challenging on a rail without good live view. Definitely not impossible, but you should understand and be comfortable with the process that will be required in the field.

Dave

 

[marchaers]

If you want a system that allow you to use exteme wide and long lenses, that is very compact and light, have the best focusing screen ever made- if you want to use CCD based backs- so Linhof Techno will be the right camera for you. You can get a used one in mint condition for very atractive prices.
Cambo actus has some limitations at very wide lenses, also movements are limitated, arca swiss is also a good option but more larger. If you want a good and cheap back with great live view then go for 50 mp back, Leafor phase one, they are a better deal

I was taking a serious look at the Linhof Techno but I couldn't seem to find used ones. Only very handsomely priced new ones. lol. I'll give it another look tonight because I absolutely love the design and usability. It's also possible to use the H6D back on it (as seen in some of the Hasselblad information booklets).

Thanks so much for the recommendation. I'll have another go at it.

 

[marchaers]

Techno is a fine answer - as it uses LF lenses on Linhof boards, of which there are many available at all price points. I've had good luck with some $300 lenses, if one only uses them as they best work.
The tricky part of this is determining what are the important criteria to you - and often these are not understood until one is deep into this, or they change. Something like a Techno gives a good tradeoff between max flexibility and easy different uses. The other main path is the pancake cameras (Alpa, Arca, Cambo) that take a different approach, and are more precise, but also more limiting - and require special lens mountings. Most people go this route.

As to the back - used a CCD Credo 60 for years, and liked it a lot. Forgiving with movements. About a year ago tested it against an IQQ 3100 and CFV, and found its still lovely at base ISO. The live view is sort of/kind of barely usable (stop down if in bright light), but live view on a CMOS back is night and day different, totally game changing. Can't go back. But the CCD back has its charm, just not at high ISO.

One last thing - there is the "proper" way to do this - typically folks aim for more precision, key if shifting. But there are other ways, off the beaten path. Having fun with a digital back on a TK23, and while not precise enough for stitching, its great for max movements, extension (either macro or tele), and just "banging around". Its not much discussed, nor on anyone's A list, but there are other ways to work.

I'm liking what you're saying. Like @anwarp mentioned using an ND filter for focusing in live view could work as well. I like the idea to also be able to use the H6D-100C sensor as it's much more flexible when needed (ignoring the power supply situation).

I'm now going to think about choosing between the Hasselblad + tilt-shift adapter for my existing lenses and a Techno camera + Hasselblad & Leaf adapter. That would be absolutely awesome because I'd be able to compare the two side by side. Thinking about the lenses as well. At that resolution and with landscape/still life photography I would prefer the lenses to be absolute bangers. Which is easier to achieve with Tech cams.

I'll also read up on the TK23! Thanks for that little off-the-beaten-path tip. I like that path a lot lol.

- Marc

 

[marchaers]

In the first article I wrote, I spent some time on the difference between using a back that has live view and one that does not. Here is the excerpt:
"While camera type and brand selection are beyond the scope of this article, there is one feature associated with the sensor being used that significantly impacts the choice between the pancake or view camera type: available live view on the digital back. Pancake cameras were developed to solve one basic problem associated with using a medium format sensor: how to accurately focus.
The traditional method of focusing on a ground glass has two problems: First, the image from such a small format is too small and dark. Second, focus needs to be incredibly accurate because the capture format is so small compared to 8×10 or even 4×5. The ground glass and digital back may not even be registered at the same distance. The tolerances of these cameras are in the range of 0.01mm. In fact, both Arca-Swiss and Alpa developed very precise designs specifically to solve the difficulties associated with accurate focus. If you have an older digital back with a CCD sensor, then live view, if even available, is at best cumbersome and difficult to use. That makes using the second group of bellows-based technical cameras a real challenge. Not impossible, but more difficult. If you have a newer digital back with a CMOS-based sensor, the world is at your fingertips; live view solves the focusing problem in spades, and if you plan on a large stable of lenses, the bellows type design is significantly cheaper because you do not have to pay for proprietary lens mounts."

As @cunim pointed out, rail / bellows systems are usually preferred in the studio, while "pancake" or helical systems are usually preferred for field work. That being said, there are many folks here who use rail / bellows systems very successfully in the field. Most of them by now are using CMOS backs. I would make one strong suggestion: If you want to use a rail / bellows system in the field with a CCD back, I urge you to try it out first. Your comments about wanting good lenses implies you want to get the most out of those lenses. That will be more challenging on a rail without good live view. Definitely not impossible, but you should understand and be comfortable with the process that will be required in the field.

Dave

Dave thanks so much for the insights. Sorry for repeating myself here but in a reply I just posted above this one I'm going to look into the Linhof Techno to pair with both the H6D-100C back (powered) and the Credo 60 as well so I can get a feel. I'm going to assume right now that the 100C will definitely be a preference when it comes to live view. My next short trip to Norway would be an awesome way to get a feel for the system. So it's either that or adapting hasselblad lenses with the 1.5 TS adapter. Which in the long run might bite me in the a** because of the fact that it decreases the lens quality slightly + those lenses are just not made for this type of usage either.

Now I'm off to find a Linhof Techno for a good price. lol.

 

[Geoff]

The Techno makes a good deal of sense with its flexibility, although "extras" to attach the back can add up. Its ability to use small lightweight LF lenses is a big plus. I've never used Hassy V or H lenses but they are heavy and put a load on the front plane, not ideal. If you are committed to those lenses, stronger pancake cameras, or heavier studio cameras (679?) may be a better choice. Use of medium format lenses may not to be worth the hassle.

 

[marchaers]

The Techno makes a good deal of sense for flexibility, although the "extras" for how to attach the back can add up. Its use of small lightweight LF lenses is delightful. I've never used Hassy V or H lenses but they are heavy and put a load on the front plane, which is not ideal. If you are committed to those lenses, stronger pancake cameras may be a better choice. Use of medium format lenses may not to be worth the hassle.

Ohh sorry maybe I came across wrongly there. I meant to say that I actually don't prefer using the Hasselblad lenses with an adapter and want to use rodenstock or specific tech lenses .

It's really hard to find a used or new Techno camera. Is there a general opinion about the Technikardan S 23 with a digi adapter? It looks like the same 'idea' but just a bit less of an elegant design. Which I don't mind.

 

[marchaers]

The Techno makes a good deal of sense with its flexibility, although "extras" to attach the back can add up. Its ability to use small lightweight LF lenses is a big plus. I've never used Hassy V or H lenses but they are heavy and put a load on the front plane, not ideal. If you are committed to those lenses, stronger pancake cameras, or heavier studio cameras (679?) may be a better choice. Use of medium format lenses may not to be worth the hassle.

WELL SH** ME NOT. The Technikardan is the exact camera you recommend earlier. That realisation just smacked me in the face lol!

I found a pre-owned one for (very) cheap with warranty. So I might just go 'all-in' and get that one! See if that works. It's a very low cost risk in this case.

 

[Geoff]

Well, good for you. Nice to have company!
I just want to be sure you know what you are getting. There are sort of three levels in this game, at least to these eyes, with regard to precision.

• First are the tightly controlled and geared pancake cameras. These also work well for shifts and stitching.
• Then the geared monorails, that are gear driven, great perhaps in super studio work, but not for the field. These work well for controlled movements but are not light.
• The Techno is a special hybrid, but allows use of lenses on simple boards.
• Last is a class I rather enjoy, might not be for digital at first glance, but offer good flexibility for modest price, and includes the TK 23 or even small view quality cameras. For single shots, these can be easy to use, enjoyable, but do not have the precision to do stitching. They are great value, the TK is easy to put in a case, fit a large range of lenses (I'm having good results with a G Claron 240mm lens, as I'm always within its sharp center image circle, for few $$). So its a way into the tech/digital world for not huge $$.

I sent my TK to Linhof Studio (Paula) to be recalibrated and adjusted - they did a super job. She mentioned others are using it the same way, so its not just one person here being odd. But its not the norm, as usually discussed on these forums.

 

[marchaers]

The first (and probably biggest) challenge has just been solved!

I still use super old first gen DSLR's for fun on rare occasions. But 90% come with terrible batteries that you can't order anymore. To solve that issue I acquired a powerbank with adjustable DC output (20000mah) to use with couplers on the old cameras. I set it to 12V and plugged it into the Hassy and voila! Works like a charm.

I'm now waiting for the TK23 + two lenses and the H adapter for the back to arrive so I can start playing around.

Overly excited and thanks to all of you so far! I hope I'll be able to upload a photo of the whole set 'in the field' in due time .

 

[Boinger]

One more vote for Techno from me. It is what I use, I chose it because you get lots of flexibility in movements, tilt and shift without expensive mounts. You can experiment with different lenses without spending an arm and a leg. And it is fairly precise, I found it more precise than the cambo actus.

Talk to Paula at linhof studio sometimes she has used stuff available.