Can Anyone Explain Why Medium Format Film Cameras are going up in Price

[ThdeDude]

These folks can do the BW printing you're looking for https://metro-print.co.uk/photo-printing/black-white-photo-printing/

Thanks. I should have written, wished there would be a practical way for the average amateur or professional to directly print digital files on silver halide paper (B&W) or chromogenic (color) paper like it is/was possible for film negatives (transparencies).

There are now smartphones with bright 4K screen displays. Use a smartphone in place of the negative carrier and light-box in an enlarger. In effect, would be enlarging and projecting the screen image not the actual digital file. Viable for B&W printing?

 

[mristuccia]

I think it all boils down to the fact that we are all wrongly aiming at perfection and speed, while the taste and the journey are the real things that make us happy. Imperfection is something we can naturally and instinctively relate to. Sadly, most of us can only go back to those values after retirement, when we can finally slow down. But the new generations, who knows, it seems they want to change direction. I won't be there to see what will happen.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think it all boils down to the fact that we are all wrongly aiming at perfection and speed, while the taste and the journey are the real things that make us happy. Imperfection is something we can naturally and instinctively relate to. Sadly, most of us can only go back to those values after retirement, when we can finally slow down. But the new generations, who knows, it seems they want to change direction. I won't be there to see what will happen.

Nice pictures on your website, Marco - are you all digital?

I also see in the market that there is a pick-up of activity around printing. People are learning how to process RA-4 at home even and there's people re-building darkrooms and there's videos on youtube instructing you on how to do it.

I think it has to be seen as a hobby - people just like to "create" in their free time even if it is not as efficient as new methods.

If you take an Alpa Pano and an 138 HR and do a hex stitch you blow away even 11x14 and with enough knowhow in postproduction you can add grain and the tonality of Tri-X to a scene - but it is not about this; it is a bout the fact that you don't know how it will come out and the manual process of doing it and the satisfaction.

If you so will, it is also a generational thing to spend more time doing things which are fun than to work in an office ... also look at modular synthesis - it takes endless amounts of time to produce anything with it and it is extremely expensive; this said, it is all the rage and people just enjoy sitting around and dabbling with cables although in 99% of the cases there never will be a release ...

In a way it is post post-modernism - everyone can and should do what they like with the methods they like.

Look also at this site: https://www.thisisartify.com/ - I almost want to enroll and release my inner painter! It is fun and time better spent than to worry about the pandemic ...

Also traditional art markets are being upended by new business models characterized by decentralization; NFTs, crypto based exchanges, etc. are set to disentangle over the next decade the traditional gallery system ... and this means you can shoot a portrait of a girl with your Mamiya RZ, process it at home, scan it, publish it on Squarespace, create an NFT out of it and then grow your following on Instagram. Prints are sold directly without your intervention via your channels. While you sleep people globally buy the print of this girl and your Paypal account grows over night. Maybe 200 bucks a week, but then multiply this with many images and a remote job and you have the perfect example of a Gen Z person not wanting to apply to a Fortune 500 to sit in an office to be able to afford a mortgage one day ... in a world were asset prices have been inflated in recent years due to lax central bank policies benefitting the older generations which started to accumulate capital 20 years earlier - it is a level of asset price inflation difficult to catch up to if you are 25 ... so you might as well stay completely remote, work on your own startup and self-express in the meantime.

Funny thing is - since the birth rate in the West has been unsustainable for the last 20 years it might very well be that despite this behaviour the job market will still integrate all these rebels later on for a good salary!

 

[MGrayson]

Paul,

If you think this is a recent trend, then you weren't a twenty something trying to buy a house in the 1980's. There are definitely two sides to the argument, but I'm definitely in the "nothing about humanity has changed since the last ice age" camp. In any new endeavor, the attention goes to the few successes and we think "the world is changing!" It's selection/survivor bias and it's everywhere and always.*

As for Central Banks, they caved in after Greenspan's 1996 "Irrational Exuberance" comment got him barbecued. I was a bond trader by then and the market shift was an 8.4 on the Richter scale. Since then, the Bank has been very accommodating to the Equity Market. If that's what you mean by "recent", then I have to agree. Interest rates may have been going up very recently, but they're laughably low by historic standards.

Sorry for staying OT.

Matt

*Probably the most pretentious reference I've ever made. Mahler's "Das Lied von der Erde" ends with "Everywhere and always the distant lands shine blue". That line gives me goosebumps, and I don't even *like* Mahler.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Paul,

If you think this is a recent trend, then you weren't trying to buy a house in the 1980's. There are definitely two sides to the argument, but I'm definitely in the "nothing about humanity has changed since the last ice age" camp. In any new endeavor, the attention goes to the few successes and we think "the world is changing!" It's selection/survivor bias and it's everywhere and always.*

Sorry for getting OT.

Matt

*Probably the most pretentious reference I've ever made. Mahler's "Das Lied von der Erde" ends with "Everywhere and always the distant lands shine blue". That line gives me goosebumps, and I don't even *like* Mahler.

I disagree in the sense that although human nature may be similar always, there's also the aspect of the civilization context - the internet, globalization, energy crisis, wars, scientific progress, cultural and civil society evolution etc. all change one's livelihood dramatically and therefore how you act. Babyboomers have benefitted from tremendous growth and wealth creation and consumption without limits during certain periods. Difficult to not own a nice house if you started working in any fortune 500 company in the 60s. Now? There's a real cost of living crisis happening in Western societies, driven by high inflation, competitive job markets in the context of globalization and inflated asset prices and just plain scarcity of key resources such as real estate.

There is a normative effect on how we live of real world facts.

I think we are entering a new age of scarcity, cultural stress, etc. and this affects what people want in life. The biggest issue in today's job market is finding people who are loyal and want to sacrifice everything for a career. This change in perspective impacts what people do and how much time they have, etc. so all I am saying is that society is changing post pandemic in a way we cannot yet fully discern and the energy crisis and the inflation will also impact the way of living, wishes, dreams of people.

The other day I heard a neighbour's daughter say when asked what she wants to be able to do when grown up: "I hope I can still buy nice flowers in the future for my mum". I found that a modest wish.

 

[ThdeDude]

If you take an Alpa Pano and an 138 HR and do a hex stitch you blow away even 11x14 and with enough knowhow in postproduction you can add grain and the tonality of Tri-X to a scene

Yes, very true. But this combination of gear, with a P1 IQ4 I presume, is easy $70K. Not something a hipster has or wants to spend. In contrast, an old film camera can be had for virtually nothing.

 

[ThdeDude]

we are all wrongly aiming at perfection and speed, while the taste and the journey are the real things that make us happy. Imperfection is something we can naturally and instinctively relate to.

You mean something like "Wabi-sabi"!

Wabi-sabi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rdeloe]

The other day I heard a neighbour's daughter say when asked what she wants to be able to do when grown up: "I hope I can still buy nice flowers in the future for my mum". I found that a modest wish.

I think your analysis is good Paul. People in my daughter's generation (early 20s) don't expect to be able to have what their parents have, especially a house.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes, the effective purchasing power as gone up for certain consumption goods courtesy of globalisation (mobile phones, TVs, etc.), but real assets which are scarce like real estate have gone up in price after the financial crisis in the wake of unbridled money printing in the Western world. As asset prices and stock market valuations expanded, nominal salaries didn't expand as much and then you have the whole thing with global corporates optimising costs all the time and so it comes that actually while it is relatively easy to own some nice electronics and a nice camera you will find it exceedingly difficult as a young person to own a home even if you have a master degree and a "knowledge worker" job ...

 

[earburner]

This just boils down to supply and demand. With very few medium format film cameras being made and a ever shrinking pool of old cameras, its not hard to see why prices are going up. Just had a shock at the ebay price for my Mamiya 7ii, its now twice the price I paid for it back in 2007

 

[Paul Spinnler]

A mint Mamiya7 with 80mm is between 5500 and 6500

 

[earburner]

I think I paid £1200 ish

 

[rdeloe]

Even lenses for the Mamiya 6 camera are ridiculously expensive. Check out the prices on 75mm f/3.5 lenses, and try to find one that doesn't have haze or fungus. I just did a quick check on eBay and the first copy I found that doesn't have haze or fungus is going for $1,291.53. Wow.

 

[4x5Australian]

I think the interest in film-based photography from young people is centred on several factors relating to their experience:

1. being told by influencers and friends that film cameras offer a new, more direct, more interesting, tactile shooting experience than the digital cameras that they are accustomed to;

2. that there is an interesting variation between film cameras, especially in medium format, that is, in itself, interesting and challenging to explore;

3. on their initial handling of a film camera, particularly a medium format camera, verifying for themselves that it offers a different and more challenging experience;

4. finding that it is possible, with a moderate amount of trial and error practice, to acquire mastery of the basic skills of focusing on a ground glass and using a hand-held or inbuilt light meter, sufficient to 'get them going' on a path which they sense will require them to grow their skills further; and

5. that the actual images that they achieve with film cameras do, indeed, look different to those that they made previously using their digital cameras.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think people also realize just that it looks better ... Kodak Portra 400 just always looks great ... and there's a certain happiness that sets in once you develop negatives and see how they came out ... after a certain time delay. It is like looking forward to a little present / surprise ...

 

[TechTalk]

As a student, my first medium format camera was a little unusual. I acquired a Rapid Omega 200 with the standard 90 mm lens. It's a 6x7 rangefinder camera with interchangeable lenses and film backs. I rarely see them discussed, but for the relatively short time that I used mine, I quite enjoyed using it. I eventually sold it to my photo instructor.

Out of curiosity, I looked online at the current used prices and they are available relatively inexpensively. The Rapid Omega 100 and 200 were the last in a series of Koni-Omega cameras that were a collaboration between Konica in Japan and Omega in the U.S. The final Rapid Omega 100 and 200 models, however, were made by Mamiya. One of the nice design features of the camera is the pressure plate. It retracts when advancing the film and presses firmly against the film to hold it flat after advance. I don't ever remember having any scratches on the film when printing.

For anyone interested, here's a short overview and a video. This multilingual website has a good deal of information on the various models and history.

 

[rdeloe]

Out of curiosity, I looked online at the current used prices and they are available relatively inexpensively.

No kidding. There are some nice copies available for very little money (relatively speaking).

 

[mristuccia]

Nice pictures on your website, Marco - are you all digital?

I also see in the market that there is a pick-up of activity around printing. People are learning how to process RA-4 at home even and there's people re-building darkrooms and there's videos on youtube instructing you on how to do it.

I think it has to be seen as a hobby - people just like to "create" in their free time even if it is not as efficient as new methods.

If you take an Alpa Pano and an 138 HR and do a hex stitch you blow away even 11x14 and with enough knowhow in postproduction you can add grain and the tonality of Tri-X to a scene - but it is not about this; it is a bout the fact that you don't know how it will come out and the manual process of doing it and the satisfaction.

If you so will, it is also a generational thing to spend more time doing things which are fun than to work in an office ... also look at modular synthesis - it takes endless amounts of time to produce anything with it and it is extremely expensive; this said, it is all the rage and people just enjoy sitting around and dabbling with cables although in 99% of the cases there never will be a release ...

In a way it is post post-modernism - everyone can and should do what they like with the methods they like.

Look also at this site: https://www.thisisartify.com/ - I almost want to enroll and release my inner painter! It is fun and time better spent than to worry about the pandemic ...

Also traditional art markets are being upended by new business models characterized by decentralization; NFTs, crypto based exchanges, etc. are set to disentangle over the next decade the traditional gallery system ... and this means you can shoot a portrait of a girl with your Mamiya RZ, process it at home, scan it, publish it on Squarespace, create an NFT out of it and then grow your following on Instagram. Prints are sold directly without your intervention via your channels. While you sleep people globally buy the print of this girl and your Paypal account grows over night. Maybe 200 bucks a week, but then multiply this with many images and a remote job and you have the perfect example of a Gen Z person not wanting to apply to a Fortune 500 to sit in an office to be able to afford a mortgage one day ... in a world were asset prices have been inflated in recent years due to lax central bank policies benefitting the older generations which started to accumulate capital 20 years earlier - it is a level of asset price inflation difficult to catch up to if you are 25 ... so you might as well stay completely remote, work on your own startup and self-express in the meantime.

Funny thing is - since the birth rate in the West has been unsustainable for the last 20 years it might very well be that despite this behaviour the job market will still integrate all these rebels later on for a good salary!

Hi Paul,

thanks for your kind words!

Some of my projects are made with film and others are digital. It depends on the initial concept and the desired result that I want to achieve.

Going back to the argument of discussion, I believe that the main reason is a longing for craftsmanship. If we can avoid using a computer, the production of an artefact becomes a slow and long journey, which in most cases also needs a physical engagement.
I mean, designing an artefact with a computer and then 3D printing it, or even worse, making only an NFT out of it, is way different from crafting it with manual or semi-manual tools. The level of involvement and the final satisfaction is different. This goes of course in conjunction with the idea of having the ability to devote more time with less rush, less stress.
I think there is a trend towards this direction.
In this context, the purpose of the information technology (internet, computers, printers, ...) is merely that of a facilitator, a social enabler, not a means of crafting the very product.

But, on the other side, we are witnessing the birth of the metaverses, where everything will be digital, including our lifes. That's exactly the opposite concept, a place where NFTs and cryptocurrencies will rule.

I know, I know, I'm getting old.

 

[mristuccia]

You mean something like "Wabi-sabi"!

Wabi-sabi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's it! Didn't know about it. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Bill_Evans]

Hi Paul, I shot film from 1971 to when Digital arrived( Tough transition) I feel I cant go back to film even for fun. Thank you for sharing the info.

If you’re happy with digital and won’t go back to shooting film, why do you even care about the prices for medium format film cameras?

It’s pretty obvious to folks who still shoot film why the prices keep going up.