CI upgrade offer

[Paul Spinnler]

Without knowing insider information it is difficult to say in which division the losses accumulated. I would think the losses in bespike are not the main problem anymore after the internal restructuring since at this stage it is a very lean operation outside in. Sales are made via resellers, production and warehousing in Japan, only Drew and a sales head manage the business. The product has been developed and they are selling backs at a good margin.

Then again 1000 backs at 10000 margin are 10m, so if pre pandemic they were at 4000 backs and now at 1000 that’s 30m less, so a restructuring probably was driven by a sharp decrease in demand for backs.

Could be also that the B2B arm cost a lot to build up and still hasnt fully reached the scale where it is profitable - ie difficult to say outside in.

I am just saying that from the outside it looks like the back business is more or less sustainable even at a low demand level given the measures they have taken. My achromatic came directly from Japan via Denmark end of last year and hast made in Japan on it vs made in Denmark the years before.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The IQ4 was marketed as the "Infinity Platform" and the MFDB with a computer "Capture One" inside----to allow for updates, new features, etc. I'm glad that the IQ4 150 has been such a reliable workhorse for me. I know that initially it was slow to roll out features for the XF camera body, but for most it was still a great combination from the start. And for technical camera users, the IQ4 is perfect. My IQ4150 with Cambo WRS1600 gives me the most photographic enjoyment. The Fuji GFX is a great complement, but just pales in comparison for photographic enjoyment.

My current Phase One systems work great. And this is all fortunately very good. Because with the fairly recent changes at Phase One, I feel like Phase has abandoned its loyal MFDB clientele of photographers. Phase has made it abundantly clear that in its pursuit of profits, MFDB users are more of an after thought---low priority. Maybe we'll see some improvements to the IQ4 platform using the "infinity platform." For me---seeing how Phase One is currently conducting business--- it is a resounding NO to buying a prospective IQ5. And this is from a dedicated photographer coming from the deepest levels of Dante's Inferno, sporting a lineage of ownership of seven MFDBs.

Ken

Ken - I hope someone at P1 reads this; this should give them pause to rethink their business approach. If such good customers think this way then they should re-consider their community approach. I mean we all know how difficult the market environment is, they could achieve a lot by being a bit more open an inclusive - this old-school big corporate approach of leaving everyone in the dark is not cool, me thinks.

 

[buildbot]

I am just saying that from the outside it looks like the back business is more or less sustainable even at a low demand level given the measures they have taken. My achromatic came directly from Japan via Denmark end of last year and hast made in Japan on it vs made in Denmark the years before.

Oh wow, I did not realize they switched DB production to Japan. That seems huge!

Quite possibly they still use the original Mamiya factory for digital backs now?

Also speaking of new lenses, this interesting
around ebay:


The seller also has Phase one XT (and ET?) shutter PCBs:

 

[Paul Spinnler]

What would you do with these things and was there ever a 150 MK II?

Yes if your order sth from P1 it all is ordered via an online order desk, shipped via the presumably weekly shipment to Denmark via airfreight, inspected and then shipped to the dealers. A few years ago they had warehousing in Europe.

If everything is outsourced and you only sell indirect via resellers like CI and have no development costs except some firmware maintenance which gets rolled into the corporate projects generalist cost centre then you probably are quite profitable. Margin per back is still 10kish, assuming 25k average seller price, 4-5k cut from resellers and 10k production costs including sensor, parts, warehousing and logistics.

Even 400 backs or less then 10 a week is still 4m of profits which pays for the few remaining FTEs attributed to the division (Drew and sales head, partial salary contribution for software guys and some technical support and operations people. This assumes production and warehousing plus logistics are rolled into the assumed 10k I mentiion above and outsourced to have better control over costs in case demand fluctuates).

So I guess their losses are in another segment, but I maybe wrong here. CH also seems to be profitable, so who knows what's happening over there. I just think their geospatial business sounds like a big boys business where you need more capital to sell, manufacture and develop products and here they have storng competition I am sure as well from the likes of DJI ... maybe that's more easily loss making if the market turns ...

 

[buildbot]

What would you do with these things and was there ever a 150 MK II?

Not sure, I just found them and thought it was interesting as clearly there is still development happening in the hardware and optics. This seller is also Israeli, likely got these as recycled parts from the Mamiya/Leaf/Phase facilties there.

There was not ever a 150 MK II! That we know of!

 

[TechTalk]

Not sure, I just found them and thought it was interesting as clearly there is still development happening in the hardware and optics. This seller is also Israeli, likely got these as recycled parts from the Mamiya/Leaf/Phase facilties there.

There was not ever a 150 MK II! That we know of!

The 150mm MK II is an aerial lens...

https://geospatial.phaseone.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/07/ixm-rs_brochure.pdf

 

[buildbot]

The 150mm MK II is an aerial lens...

https://geospatial.phaseone.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/07/ixm-rs_brochure.pdf

Ah, that makes sense! Thanks. The ET shutter has a contacts that match the ixm cameras too.

 

[TechTalk]

Oh wow, I did not realize they switched DB production to Japan. That seems huge!

Digital back production moved from Denmark to Japan in 2019. Lexer, a company Phase One Japan worked with for planning manufacturing processes and simulation of production flow, has a use case article regarding the shift at the Phase One Japan factory to lower production volumes of more individual items to reduce costs, inventory, and wait times. One example used is moving from production of a batch of a given lens to producing a single lens as ordered. It includes commentary from the factory manager, Eiji Ibuka.

Their Phase One customer story from their English language webpage is a bit of a mess in my web browsers with some text overlaying other text, so here's a Google Translate version from their Japanese webpage for anyone interested in reading it. It also includes a video interview with the factory manager which has some of the most annoying noise in the audio I've experienced. I tried the auto translate to English option from YouTube, but it wasn't very helpful. The article though I found interesting to read. Here are a few excerpts from the link: It was in 2017, three years after the launch of Phase One Japan, the company made the decision to undertake a major operational reform...

“As a result of our considerations based on the stance of changing what should be changed, it became necessary to reconsider the subcontractor that we outsourced the lens manufacturing process to. In order to get closer to the goal of the simulation, we had no choice but to reconsider the classification of internal and external production. I did," Ibuka said. Furthermore, we pursued a floor plan that would achieve the target lead time. It was accompanied by a major change in the production method within the factory. Until then, all products were manufactured in lots, but many products were assembled by one worker in charge of multiple processes until the finished product. It was necessary to switch to one-piece flow production . “We made major changes to the factory floor layout, and at the same time, we switched from lot production of 13 lens models to single-lot production for 10 models. I think it was a bold change,” says Mr. Ibuka...

The idea of transferring the assembly of digital backs, which are image processing devices handled by the head office, to Japan was brought up. “If we also handle digital backs, we will be manufacturing digital camera systems as a whole. We can see that the limit will eventually come with just the camera itself, and the idea that we have to do it as the core factory of the Phase One group is It was strong," (Mr. Ibuka)...

"We were able to convince the head office by showing the improvement logic. We are making good use of our simulation experience in lens manufacturing."
With the consent of the head office, the transfer of the digital back was completed in 2019, and we were able to increase the new production category as Phase One Japan.
Currently, there are talks of transferring other products of the Phase One Group.

I did find an archived version of the story from their English language website which didn't cause the jumble of text in my browsers. It's similar to the Japanese to English version I linked above, but there are some differences in the text and there's no video.

 

[ThdeDude]

... we switched from lot production ... to single-lot production ...

Assembly probably would be the better word. Wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the current P1 assembly process.

 

[Geoff]

Anybody tell what is "one piece flow production", please?

 

[Shoe]

Anybody tell what is "one piece flow production", please?

I will preface by saying that I am no manufacturing expert, I just read some explanations of the term in Japanese.

It seems to be an approach where multiple tasks are applied to a single unit, as opposed to a single task being applied to multiple units.
This would mean fully assembling one unit at a time from start to finish, rather than, for example, adding one part at a time to a batch of units like an assembly line.

From the description, it sounds like they already had individual workers handling multiple processes, so the switch from "lot production" to "single lot production" may have been a logical one.

 

[ThdeDude]

It seems to be an approach where multiple tasks are applied to a single unit, as opposed to a single task being applied to multiple units.
This would mean fully assembling one unit at a time from start to finish, rather than, for example, adding one part at a time to a batch of units like an assembly line.

My understand too. A corollary to single-lot assembly might be also built-to-order.

 

[TechTalk]

My current Phase One systems work great. And this is all fortunately very good. Because with the fairly recent changes at Phase One, I feel like Phase has abandoned its loyal MFDB clientele of photographers. Phase has made it abundantly clear that in its pursuit of profits, MFDB users are more of an after thought---low priority. Maybe we'll see some improvements to the IQ4 platform using the "infinity platform." For me---seeing how Phase One is currently conducting business--- it is a resounding NO to buying a prospective IQ5. And this is from a dedicated photographer coming from the deepest levels of Dante's Inferno, sporting a lineage of ownership of seven MFDBs.

Ken

We all bring our own individual perspective to the table and yours is a valid viewpoint. I've had my own longstanding point of view regarding my relationship with manufacturers, their products, and my expectations. I look at what's available, decide what best fits my needs, buy it and expect support for what I bought for a reasonable period of time afterwards and that's about it. If at a later point, my direction changes or the manufacturer's direction changes; then I may need to buy some other brand and model to meet my needs at that point in time. I don't have many firm expectations from a manufacturer because I don't expect my needs and preferences, at any point in time, to align with those of others; including manufacturers — but I'm happy when they do.

I've gone from Leaf, to Sinar, to Imacon, to Hasselblad for my primary digital systems over the years; primarily due to the manufacturer taking a different product direction that no longer met my needs. I went from Leaf to Sinar for better integration and better multi-shot options. I went from Sinar to Imacon for better portability and integration with the new H-system. After Imacon and Hasselblad merged, Hasselblad has met my needs with increasingly tighter system integration and excellent multi-shot options; along with the HTS 1.5 which has worked well for my purposes. Each system worked well for me for a time and then I moved on to something that served my needs better. Other photographers make their own choices for their own perfectly valid reasons.

So...now it appears that Hasselblad's H-system has reached the end of its life because consumer demand has diminished to the point where there's not enough volume to support and sustain making it any longer. I'd like to see it continue, but I understand the demand of the larger market has moved on to smaller, lighter, less expensive mirrorless systems. I get it. This happens more quickly in the digital age as technology evolves rapidly, so 20 years or so was a pretty good run. I don't see any need to look for a replacement for the H6D-400c anytime remotely soon, so I'm not too concerned. Other products and innovations will come to market over time as they are ready, so I'm in no rush. I'll use what works for me now and move to something else when it's the right time for me — which will be different for other individuals. Phase One has been adapting to the changing market in its own way and is still currently offering their users high-resolution products with large sensors in DSLR and tech camera form.

I've just never had a feeling that I was disloyal or abandoning a manufacturer by switching to something else and I've never felt that the reverse was true either. I do what I feel I need to do to make the images I want and manufacturers do what they feel they need to do to promote their best interests. I know we become attached to the tools we use, but that sometimes needs to be balanced with the reality of changes beyond our control. In the meantime, the presently available tools are the best ever! So, enjoy them until something that suits you even better comes along! End of my long boring monologue.

 

[ThdeDude]

IMHO, mature way to look at things. Still, too bad that Polaroid type 55 is gone but that's life I assume, c'est la vie.

At least those who also dabble in smartphone or iPhone photography, we always have September to look forwards.

Will we finally get a long focal length (periscope type) lens? What sensor/lens combination may get the new Sony two-layer sensor? Will we be able to tell a difference?

 

[earburner]

"A new IQ4+ could use a significantly faster SoC:"
A new SoC could bring some improvements
"+ Highly reactive, ie you can tap and shoot multiple frames in quick succession, ie nice onboard RAM buffer"
Possible
"+ Latest gen internal storage I/O for faster preview, saving, etc."
Possible
"+ Battery lasts 3x as long"
Not going to happen without a big redesign of the back. The sensor is very power hungry and is not going to change
"+ Bluetooth for remote triggering"
Easy
"+ Faster and more power efficient and reliable WiFi supporting crisp live view, look at DJIs drones!"
Not going to happen, some improvement can be made, there is no space for mimo aerials
"+ More in-camera processing (LuTs, stitching, super resolution, auto LCC based on shift metadata, etc.)"
Some of this could be done, but some of it require vast amounts of development for little return.
"+ Video recording in raw 4-6k"
May be possible depending on the SDI interface on the Sony chip
"+ Filmic internal special sauce mode like the internal LUTs of Hassy's cameras"
Why do this when C1 is on iPhone and iPad
"+ Smooth 4K video feed for external monitors for the new EVF"
Sensor Dependent

"A new IQ5 could improve on DR and resolution (200 megapixels)."
I cannot see a IQ5 coming for at least 5 years if not ever. The number of 53.5x40mm sensors being sold must have dropped through the floor. With P1 being the only manufacture using them, there cannot be any budget for Sony to design and make a new one. When the 150mpix sensor was made, Sony would have hope they would have sold it to Hasselblad at some point

I can see a revamped IQ4 happening, but not much more than a few tweaks, see above...
adding 10GBE ethernet would be a nice add on.

I would suggest P1 is in survival mode, I don't see a big clammer for more resolution or dynamic range and I can't imagine any IQ4 user clients being hassled for it.

 

[buildbot]

adding 10GBE ethernet would be a nice add on.

Already supported in the iXH 150, iXM-RS150F, iXM-RS100, iXM-MV150F and some others too, so the firmware exists basically.

Also, apparently the iXM-MV150F has a global shutter option????:

 

[MGrayson]

Two signs you've made a wrong turn somewhere.
Combining Loyalty and a Manufacturer or Investment and Photographic Equipment.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Already supported in the iXH 150, iXM-RS150F, iXM-RS100, iXM-MV150F and some others too, so the firmware exists basically.

Also, apparently the iXM-MV150F has a global shutter option????:
View attachment 204204

I believe reset mode is not equivalent to the shutter as shown above. No idea what "reset mode" means though; maybe related to the switch between mechanical and electronic shutters?

 

[TechTalk]

Already supported in the iXH 150, iXM-RS150F, iXM-RS100, iXM-MV150F and some others too, so the firmware exists basically.

Also, apparently the iXM-MV150F has a global shutter option????:

The global or rolling shutter reset options are both rolling shutter modes which sequentially end the exposure line by line (rolling shutter). The global or rolling shutter reset options refer only to how and when the start of exposure is triggered for each line (row). There is no global shutter option for that sensor which ends exposure simultaneously for all lines, only rolling (sequential) signals which sweep across the sensor's parallel lines to end exposure for each line separately at different intervals.

A sensor reset signal clears a row of pixels of any accumulated charge to effectively start the exposure. A rolling shutter sensor begins an exposure sequence with a reset signal which can be either global (simultaneous for all rows) or sequential (line by line). A picture is worth a thousand words they say...

Global Shutter ...

Rolling Shutter Exposure (with rolling shutter reset) ...

Rolling Shutter (with global shutter reset) ...

Using the latter option of "rolling shutter with global shutter reset" introduces a problem of uneven exposure as exposure time becomes progressively longer. For specific special use applications and configurations this can be a useful mode, but is not likely to be useful in more conventional applications. More details can be found in the link below and elsewhere online.

https://www.baumer.com/technical-information-industrial-cameras/rolling-shutter-global-shutter-two-principles-of-exposure

 

[buildbot]

The global or rolling shutter reset options are both rolling shutter modes which sequentially end the exposure line by line (rolling shutter). The global or rolling shutter reset options refer only to how and when the start of exposure is triggered for each line (row). There is no global shutter option for that sensor which ends exposure simultaneously for all lines, only rolling (sequential) signals which sweep across the sensor's parallel lines to end exposure for each line separately at different intervals.

A sensor reset signal clears a row of pixels of any accumulated charge to effectively start the exposure. A rolling shutter sensor begins an exposure sequence with a reset signal which can be either global (simultaneous for all rows) or sequential (line by line). A picture is worth a thousand words they say...

Global Shutter ...

Rolling Shutter Exposure (with rolling shutter reset) ...

Rolling Shutter (with global shutter reset) ...

Using the latter option of "rolling shutter with global shutter reset" introduces a problem of uneven exposure as exposure time becomes progressively longer. For specific special use applications and configurations this can be a useful mode, but is not likely to be useful in more conventional applications. More details can be found in the link below and elsewhere online.

https://www.baumer.com/technical-information-industrial-cameras/rolling-shutter-global-shutter-two-principles-of-exposure

That’s really informative, thank you.