Digaron-S HR 4/60 mm on 33x44 sensor like Fuji GFX100, hasselblad 907x100S, XD2

[DNN]

There's also a Sironar Digital 70 HR; the problem is that no more helicals are made for the 60 natively and mounting with all manufacturers is in the 1-2k+ range, more in the 2k range if you need a tube - which puts the lens at the SAME OR MORE price level than the 70 HR which by all accounts is its replacement.

I've seen multiple 70s go for the 2k-2.5k range - except Alpa - which explains why most of the time it is IMHO the better choice as it has 100m IC, which is significantly more than the 70mm IC of the 60mm. Essentially the 70 is almost as cheap mounted in the used market, can shift all the way on a large tech cam - 100mm is huge! - and is brilliantly sharp.

To put this in perspective: on a full frame I can shift the 70mm 22.5mm left right, the 60 HR would have almost no shift. That's a biggie. I am sorry.

If you can find one sub 1k, say 750 or so it is worthwhile to look into it - there's often a sironar digital 55 for example which go for sub 1k, but there's a reason the 70 HR is the current staple entry Rodie lens and the 60 has been discontinued.

There's no advantage IMHO except for collection purposes or if you can get it way cheaper than a 70.

We just had a perfect copal 70 HR sit around the forum for a while for 2k - why would one forego all the advantages of 30mm more IC (100 vs 70!) for a tiny sum on top?

With 70s often readily available, the appeal of the 60 is reduced, unfortunately and add to that ofc the availability of the 55 SD for sub 1k often!

I find the 90 Sironar W a more interesting option as the delta to the 90-SW is ginormous price-wise and its still an excellent lens.

It always puzzled me to find the 90-W trading hands for under 1k - its the best bargain out there.

As said, looked many times at the 60, always realized I have a 70 and its more a wish to collect than anything else.

In terms of hiearchy of best moderately priced rodies I'd recommend:

1) 70 HR (2-2.5k unmounted)
2) 90 W (<1k! unmounted)
3) 55 SD (<1k! unmounted)

The 55 is very cheap compared to the 50 W and still a good lens for most if you're not super stressed about extreme sharpness shifted.

The 60 HR falls between the cracks somehow between the current 70 which is the cheapest list Rodie and the 55 SD which can be had for not much.

The small IC essentially kills it for digital backs except for Fuji and the crop Hassy back - which would be the main use case; but here again only if you get it at a bargain as you might as well spend a bit more and get the 70 or stick with the 55 which is also very good and regularly trades at the 1k mark.

IMHO the focal length problem in itself is greatly mitigated by the existence of the 55 and then 70. 55 is close enough to 60 I'd say ...

And another thing on old lenses like that. We are talking 2008 era glass, meaning you'd need to make sure the copal is well aligned - which is why its so crucial to buy from a specialist like Alkibiades. I've seen unwell calibrated old HR lenses and its a pain cost-wise to fix it at Rodenstock. We are talking about almost 20y! HR lenses where tiniest copal issues lead to uneven performance left / right ... 20y is a long time for a lens to exist free of bumps, mishandling, etc.

Ie with HR unbent copal is crucial - fixing it via Rodenstock means AU replacement which means 1.5k+ ...

lets not forget for those not using Alpa or Rm3Di -- there are good cameras that mount such a lens with just a simple lens board and no helicals. For example the new Pico, and the Techno both use inexpensive lens boards.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

lets not forget for those not using Alpa or Rm3Di -- there are good cameras that mount such a lens with just a simple lens board and no helicals. For example the new Pico, and the Techno both use inexpensive lens boards.

The point was more:

1) Unmounted

70 HR - 2k-2.5k
60 HR - 1.5k-2k
55 SD - 1k

2) Mounted

70 HR - 3.5-4k
60 HR - 1.5k-2k + mounting at Cambo (who have own helicals) = 3.5-4k
55 SD - 1k + mounting 1.5-2k = 2.5-3k

So if you reeeaaally think you need 60 vs 70 or 60 vs 55 ... but still somehow the 70 HR feels the natural choice given its price point and great price performance: 100mm IC ...

Even in the unmounted scenario (bellows cam), except if you're veery keen on 60 and 55 is TOO WIDE for you SOMEHOW compared to the 60 ... it doesnt feel like the natural choice in the Rodenstock lineup given the later developed 70 and the bargain priced 55.

 

[Alkibiades]

How would it perform on the full frame sensor? Is that worthy of a contemplation?

I made these tests on 33x44 mm sensors, so the focus is on this sensor.
So for this size of the sensor the 60 HR as all Diagron -S lenses is simply ideal.
It has enough image circle for movements on this sensor, as a true HR lens it is a real High Resolution lens made with modern digital lens design- not a relabeled analoge lens.
So for 33x44 mm sensor it is one of best lenses that you can get- I would even say it is the best in this range- but is is my opinion.
It is even sharper than the 50 HR- in my opinion best Digaron-W lens.
It is also the widest Rodenstock HR lens that can be used with Fuji GFX cameras, that are very popular.
When I would use the full frame back I would prefer 50 mm HR, becouse of the bigger image circle.
But if you dont need more than 10 mm shift on the full frame the 60 HR could be interesting for you.
10 mm shift should be no problem on Full Frame. When you look for extrem sharp lens this could be interesting for you.
When big movements are needed on modern full frame the 50 HR or 60 XL are the only alternative.

 

[Alkibiades]

the Rodenstock HR line called before Apo Sironar HR- now HR Digaron ( S-W and WS) is a fully modern lens concept.
To call such lenses "old" is ridiculous. I would say the digital photography got 2 really digital lens designs, in professional photography ( technical cameras ect...) the HR Rodenstock lenses and in the more mainstream the Zeiss Otus.
Nowerdays the modern portrait, standart ect lens based on Otus lens design, not on traditional Planar ect....So you get a fantastic 1,2 50 mm from Sigma or similar lenses for 1k! they all based on Otus, they are fantastik even wide open. This is not possible with old planar-lensdesign. The same in the technical camera world. The 55 mm that some guys still used ( dont understand me wrong- I like these lenses very much, especially for film) shares a lens design that is 70 years old. so this is old, not the new designs develop after 2000 with focus on digital photography with all the points that become important becouse of the new digital technology.
So for somebody "no distortion" is the only one important point so a Biogon made about 1960 should be good enough for you.
It is even sharper than the 55 mm digital. Only the contrast is lower- seen in low contast light.
But I would say distortion is the only one point that can be fully corrected in digital photography- the other not!
The Digarons have very similar distortion behavior, when you understand it, it is very easy to correct it in C1 , even when there is not profile for some- just take one for a similar range. If you know how it works the correction is very simply done .
But all other factors cant be corrected.
Up 50 mm Digarons distortion is so well corrected that it is has to understand when this should be an issue. Maybe when somebody make only technical documentation of facades or what ever... anyway I cant believe that 50 hr or 60 hr will have any visible distortion in normal use, except extrem use.
Symmetrical lenses have the advantage of no distortion but also a lot of disadvantages that cant be solved.
I like 43xl and 60 XL very much but I now also they disadvantages and sometime the rodenstock HR lenses are the much better choice.
At the end the personal preferences of the user are the main point.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

The Digarons have very similar distortion behavior, when you understand it, it is very easy to correct it in C1 , even when there is not profile for some- just take one for a similar range. If you know how it works the correction is very simply done .

Hi Alkibiades, when you say the distortion behaviour is similar you mean I could use the 23mm profile for the 28HR in C1, or would there be something closer than that?

By the way, I just got a chance to look at some files from the HR Digaron W 4,0/50 courtesy of @diggles as I am interested in buying it and can agree with you that the distortion is minimal. The crop to get the sam FOV as the 55 digital I use now is minimal and the sharpness and lack of field curvature overrides the loss in resolution. So I won't be getting a 60HR but this thread opened my mind to a different possibility, thanks.

 

[Alkibiades]

Hi Alkibiades, when you say the distortion behaviour is similar you mean I could use the 23mm profile for the 28HR in C1, or would there be something closer than that?

By the way, I just got a chance to look at some files from the HR Digaron W 4,0/50 courtesy of @diggles as I am interested in buying it and can agree with you that the distortion is minimal. The crop to get the sam FOV as the 55 digital I use now is minimal and the sharpness and lack of field curvature overrides the loss in resolution. So I won't be getting a 60HR but this thread opened my mind to a different possibility, thanks.

Yes, you can use the profile of the 23 hr for 28 hr and change the intensity of correction with the tool. So the distortion behavior is similar mostly the intensity of the distortion little different. I would say the distortion of the 32 hr is also similar.
Digaron 50 is a very good choice, I like this lens very much, especially on full frame.

 

[Alkibiades]

Warrens 50 mm is mounted on the Arca R mount- it is also a great system that can use the optical quality of HR lenses very well.
And also Warren is a very trustworthy person, so I am sure you will get the perfect lens for your needs.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

Yes, you can use the profile of the 23 hr for 28 hr and change the intensity of correction with the tool. So the distortion behavior is similar mostly the intensity of the distortion little different. I would say the distortion of the 32 hr is also similar.
Digaron 50 is a very good choice, I like this lens very much, especially on full frame.

Thanks. I've tested it out but can't quit get anything that matches. I did a correction with Alpa lens corrector (expand canvas set to none so I can match the crop in C1) and then trim with etc 23, 32, and 35 profiles in C1. I can get something similar but not exact. I think you made a comment about shooting technical documentation of facades — which is something I actually do, so the correction is important. When your work gets published in print and the sides of a building aren't parallel to the image frames — it's not something you want to see.

 

[Alkibiades]

Thanks. I've tested it out but can't quit get anything that matches. I did a correction with Alpa lens corrector (expand canvas set to none so I can match the crop in C1) and then trim with etc 23, 32, and 35 profiles in C1. I can get something similar but not exact. I think you made a comment about shooting technical documentation of facades — which is something I actually do, so the correction is important. When your work gets published in print and the sides of a building aren't parallel to the image frames — it's not something you want to see.

When you use distortion correction tool you have also to remember the movements you have done with the shot. Then you must add this to the correction tool. It should work well. The only one other option in this range would be the schneider 28 xl, but you will need the right back for it, best would be the phase one IQ4 150. Both, the lens and the back are expensive.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

When you use distortion correction tool you have also to remember the movements you have done with the shot. Then you must add this to the correction tool. It should work well. The only one other option in this range would be the schneider 28 xl, but you will need the right back for it, best would be the phase one IQ4 150. Both, the lens and the back are expensive.

Yes, I always include the movements in the lens correction tool, even for other lenses since I understand the sharpness adjustment (for edges) is affected by it (not sure about chromatic aberration). I'll just keep on with Alpa lens correction, I don't use 28mm much in any case. Maybe if I had the 28XL — we can all dream.

 

[Alkibiades]

I dont think that this tool can adjust sharpness in the edges or could correct chromatic aberation. The distortion itsself is totaly different when movements are done.
When I would do a lot of works like facades documantation I would probably use 43 xl and stich, so I would avoid extrem wide angle lenses for natural look but still got a wide view.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

I dont think that this tool can adjust sharpness in the edges or could correct chromatic aberation. The distortion itsself is totaly different when movements are done.
When I would do a lot of works like facades documantation I would probably use 43 xl and stich, so I would avoid extrem wide angle lenses for natural look but still got a wide view.

It's funny how these threads always start off with one topic and end up somewhere completely different. Yes the 43XL would be great but then only if there's room to move back and get the same FOV. If you are shooting from exactly the same position stitching is just going to result on a higher res, and maybe slightly different DOF considering how the f/stops for the different lenses are calculated, since they are not exact empirical values (I know because I've tried). I'd never use the 28 if I could just remove obstacles (walls, roads, rivers, trees).

The Lens correction tool does have a sharpness slider which affects the edges of the frame. It's useful sometimes with a lot of shift to help correct the softer outer edges of the IC. I've tested it but have never really worked out definitively if the values entered into the movements tab have any effect on the area that this sharpness setting works on.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

For future reference - I finally caved and also got myself one for one-shot on the TC; on the Max I can shift 15mm upwards on an IQ4 in landscape position.

That's very good, the 70 HR will go all the way. So similar to the 35 HR an interesting alternative optic ...

 

[rdeloe]

For future reference - I finally caved and also got myself one for one-shot on the TC; on the Max I can shift 15mm upwards on an IQ4 in landscape position.

That's very good, the 70 HR will go all the way. So similar to the 35 HR an interesting alternative optic ...

A 15mm shift on an IQ4 150, in landscape orientation, needs an image circle of 88mm. That is 18mm larger than the official 70mm circle.

If image quality is good that far out in the shifted zone, then that is an astonishing performance. Why would Rodenstock spec it as a 70mm circle when it's actually a lot bigger?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Let me share some section crops tomorrow - I have not checked how well the performance is up there, but that’s where the black border of the IC starts to pop up top left too right

 

[Rod S.]

That sounds like circle of illumination. It's fine for sky above buildings, so is useful.

Or, is the black border simply mechanical vignetting from the barrel or mount?

 

[rdeloe]

I'm with you Rod... The circle of illumination can be much larger than the circle of good definition. But I've been surprised several times to find that the circle of good definition can be larger than the specified value, and as you say, a nice big circle of illumination is an asset when we're leaving lots of space above something (sky, clouds, darkness).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

But the delta of CI and CoD is lower with Rodie HR than with SK and it’s even lower with Digaron S;

I spoke to the Qioptic manager today and they told me it’s actually an industrial inspection lens.

So one could maybe get these cheaper in some sort of aperture mount?

As said, let me check tomorrow based on some samples

 

[Paul Spinnler]

It's this one:

inspec.x L 4/60 | Excelitas

Dieses Objektiv verfügt über ein Anschraubgewinde für unser beliebtes Modular Focus Modul und kann mittels unterschiedlicher Kameraadapter mit so gut wie allen verfügbaren Kameras genutzt werden.

www.excelitas.com

Probably a few hundred bucks and no problem with ES on IQ3/4 and Hassy CMOS ...

I think on an AS camera mounting should be easy.

The FFD is quite short, so not sure it works with all bellows cams.

I actually once called Excelitas to buy an inspec lens and they also have their distributors, so one could probably buy this one, with the negative being that its not as thoroughly checked as a photo lens and ofc no shutter.

It's a good one:

 

[Paul Spinnler]

At a 100% at F4 or F5.6 - but very wide open. Incredibly sharp on IQ4 Achro ... definitely worth exploring how to use the inspec lens version on bellows cams or AS cams.

I was told that it was designed originally for quality control of PCB circuits, CPUs, etc.

The crispness reminds me of the 138.