Hasselblad X2D and Leica S3 - Update 2: A difficult focus

[Paul Spinnler]

This year we will have M11M, the Q3; I heard no SL3 at one point, but not sure if this is still the case. Leica tends to spread their announcement to keep revenues a bit evened out; since fiscal year end is end of March this always means new cameras come starting from April.

I think next announcement is the M11M, pre-Summer (April-June), I hope, with availability broadly post Summer.

M11M is going to be the camera of the year for me. Imagine with the Apo 35 / 50 …

 

[Paratom]

There is some time gone now, after Matt started this thread.
I wonder if you (Matt) came to any further (or even final?) conclusions?
Which system do you use more often, which one do you want to take out, which one makes you wow more when looking at images?
I have taken some more images with the x2d. I really like the body, and I really like IBIS, and the reliable AF. The color is near perfect as well IMO.
I still feel I sometimes miss that creamy bokeh and overall look of the S lenses, and I want to take the S out more often again.
I know I have to be more patient with some lenses at certain distances regarding AF, and that is one point that bugs me. And the lenses are big (some at least)
But then I have this nice S lens line up from 24 to 180mm. And the rendering and bokeh of all of them is great, and the S-Zoom has a slightly more usefull range than the xcd zoom. If S4 comes not before 2025 I even start thinking to upgrade the S007 to a S3... (I know, crazy, bashing and wanting, hate love, I am overequipped with too many systems...). So Matt, and others, which is your system here, between S and Hassy?

 

[MGrayson]

There is some time gone now, after Matt started this thread.
I wonder if you (Matt) came to any further (or even final?) conclusions?
Which system do you use more often, which one do you want to take out, which one makes you wow more when looking at images?
I have taken some more images with the x2d. I really like the body, and I really like IBIS, and the reliable AF. The color is near perfect as well IMO.
I still feel I sometimes miss that creamy bokeh and overall look of the S lenses, and I want to take the S out more often again.
I know I have to be more patient with some lenses at certain distances regarding AF, and that is one point that bugs me. And the lenses are big (some at least)
But then I have this nice S lens line up from 24 to 180mm. And the rendering and bokeh of all of them is great, and the S-Zoom has a slightly more usefull range than the xcd zoom. If S4 comes not before 2025 I even start thinking to upgrade the S007 to a S3... (I know, crazy, bashing and wanting, hate love, I am overequipped with too many systems...). So Matt, and others, which is your system here, between S and Hassy?

I think I'm in exactly the same place. I'm carrying the X2D and 3 or 4 lenses, or just the body with the 21 mounted. It gets me out taking more pictures because it's easier to carry and I'm still learning it. In its current firmware state, I can't really use it longer than 90mm unless the AF target is unmissable. Most of my images have no bokeh, but that isn't everything to a lens's look. The 21 is unique. The color is as good as it gets.

Still... every time I press the shutter button, a small voice wishes that I were using the S. Mind you, I feel the same way about the IQ160, but that ship sailed long ago.

So I'll keep the S and its almost complete set of lenses (no 30mm or zoom), I'll use the Hassy and see how the system develops. I may be the only person on earth who doesn't care about the new lenses - probably because I haven't tried them. I'm perfectly happy with the behavior and quality of the older XCD's. But the firmware and remote release issues with the X2D - if they aren't resolved within a year - might bring the S back out more often. I was starting to put the S on top of an 8' monopod, but without live view, that's not possible with the Hassy. (well, I can shoot a lot and hope to be lucky - that's often how it works anyway...)

One thing I find strange. I really don't like the S 45, and yet the XCD 45 is my second most used lens. (Size and weight?) I like the S 70, but have no interest in the XCD 65. The S 120 is a miracle. The XCD 120 just hasn't grabbed me. I'm pretty sure these are simple prejudice.

tl;dr - I'm carrying the Hassy. I'm keeping the S.

Matt

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Definitely keep the S lenses - the new body will be compatible. They are stunning and classics in their own right. New body will have live view, EVF, etc. Will be great.

In fact, now is a time to buy them up given their low price. The 24, 45, 100, 120 especially if you can find them.

Personal favourite: 35 2.5!

 

[Paratom]

I once started the S with 70 and 35, and I still find these 2 are very flexible and great to use.
The 45 is maybe a slight edge better optically, but its heavier than the 35.
I decided I will keep the S lenses and hope for the S4 one day, maybe add one or two new lenses if they show up.
My wishes for S4 would be ibis, advanced AF (at least more than ceter field, good compability to older S lenses!!!, hopefully without adapter), and a fast+small 35 and 70 mm lens And give it something the x2d does not have to give me justification to buy the S4.
Until then I have my S007 and x2d, which I indeed also like quite a bit.
The x2d still is a very good package. my standard walkaround combo is x2d+30+65.
I think the 80 renders better, but its a little bit on the large and heavy side.

 

[Photon42]

I have decided to part with the S007 and the S lenses (24/70/120) in favour of the Hasselblad X system. The Leica lenses and camera are super nice to operate but in the end often on the large side of things. I still keep the S2, which I bought at an absolutely ridiculously low price even for 2017. It is still going strong and I use it for some Hasselblad and Contax lenses occasionally, I still happen to have.
Funny note is that HC lenses work better on the Leica S than on the X2D, in that all of them autofocus and of course can use the camera's shutter.
Hasselblad explained to me once, that lots of older HC lenses cannot be updated to a new firmware, because they were designed for phase detection autofocus. They went on to say that contrast detection AF needs far more data stored in the memory of the lens.
Now we have phase detect AF in X2D, but no sign the old lenses would now autofocus ...

 

[buildbot]

Hasselblad explained to me once, that lots of older HC lenses cannot be updated to a new firmware, because they were designed for phase detection autofocus. They went on to say that contrast detection AF needs far more data stored in the memory of the lens.

I’d love to know why that is, I would think contrast detection is possible with literally anything. Slowly

 

[Godfrey]

Wow, I had hoped for end of this year (without knowing anything). 2024/2025 its a long time. I shall stop to think about things that could eventually happen one day and focus further on things that are real and available today

... or maybe just keep making photographs and stop spending time looking for new equipment? Heaven forfend!

I think I'm in exactly the same place. I'm carrying the X2D and 3 or 4 lenses, or just the body with the 21 mounted. It gets me out taking more pictures because it's easier to carry and I'm still learning it. In its current firmware state, I can't really use it longer than 90mm unless the AF target is unmissable. Most of my images have no bokeh, but that isn't everything to a lens's look. The 21 is unique. The color is as good as it gets.

Still... every time I press the shutter button, a small voice wishes that I were using the S. Mind you, I feel the same way about the IQ160, but that ship sailed long ago.

So I'll keep the S and its almost complete set of lenses (no 30mm or zoom), I'll use the Hassy and see how the system develops. I may be the only person on earth who doesn't care about the new lenses - probably because I haven't tried them. I'm perfectly happy with the behavior and quality of the older XCD's. But the firmware and remote release issues with the X2D - if they aren't resolved within a year - might bring the S back out more often. I was starting to put the S on top of an 8' monopod, but without live view, that's not possible with the Hassy. (well, I can shoot a lot and hope to be lucky - that's often how it works anyway...)

One thing I find strange. I really don't like the S 45, and yet the XCD 45 is my second most used lens. (Size and weight?) I like the S 70, but have no interest in the XCD 65. The S 120 is a miracle. The XCD 120 just hasn't grabbed me. I'm pretty sure these are simple prejudice.

tl;dr - I'm carrying the Hassy. I'm keeping the S.

Heh! I still have the Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c. Still have the XCD 21, 45P, 65 ... use the 65 most of the time. Still have the 500CM with 50, 80, 120 Makro, and 150 lenses that I can drop the CFVII 50c onto any time. Always returns excellent photos.

But I carry and use the Leica M10-M ...

G
—
"No matter where you go, there you are."

 

[Paul Spinnler]

M11M is around the corner ... time to sell M10M before value drops by 1-2k!

 

[hcubell]

Hasselblad explained to me once, that lots of older HC lenses cannot be updated to a new firmware, because they were designed for phase detection autofocus. They went on to say that contrast detection AF needs far more data stored in the memory of the lens.
Now we have phase detect AF in X2D, but no sign the old lenses would now autofocus ...

My understanding is that the older HC lenses do not have a chip that has enough capacity to handle the required lens firmware for communicating with the X series cameras. I don't think it has anything to do with contrast versus phase detection AF.

 

[Photon42]

I think it does, but honestly, I don't know.

 

[Paratom]

... or maybe just keep making photographs and stop spending time looking for new equipment? Heaven forfend!



Heh! I still have the Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c. Still have the XCD 21, 45P, 65 ... use the 65 most of the time. Still have the 500CM with 50, 80, 120 Makro, and 150 lenses that I can drop the CFVII 50c onto any time. Always returns excellent photos.

But I carry and use the Leica M10-M ...

G
—
"No matter where you go, there you are."

Recently explored again the 28/5.6M ...makes the M+lens fit into the pocket of my winter jacket.
Its like a compact camera
I also still love the M for what is, and if you shoot Monochrome, I wonder if the (small) medium format cameras can offer anything the M10M (or future M11M) can not do.

 

[Godfrey]

M11M is around the corner ... time to sell M10M before value drops by 1-2k!

I went the other way. I bought an M10-R to complement the M10-M with a color capable camera. Both of these cameras produce quality that may well last until I'm no longer interested in making photographs ... and, unlike buying an M11, all the batteries, chargers, Visoflex 020, half case, etc, are completely compatible between the two bodies. That saves me much more than the imminent drop in M10-M value!

Recently explored again the 28/5.6M ...makes the M+lens fit into the pocket of my winter jacket.
Its like a compact camera
I also still love the M for what is, and if you shoot Monochrome, I wonder if the (small) medium format cameras can offer anything the M10M (or future M11M) can not do.

I have two very very compact lenses for the M: the MS Optical Aporia 24mm f/2 and the Lomo LC-A Minitar 1 32mm f/2.8. Either of them fitted to a Leica M allows it to slip into my summer jacket's pocket, and both produce lovely, character-full photographs. The M10-M,R becomes a very compact camera with these lenses fitted.

My evaluation is that, with the range of lenses I have available, the M10-M,R nets more capability in a smaller, handier package than any of the 33x44 cameras I've experimented with. I see little but insignificant differences in detailing or dynamic range on my test exposures, which at 40 Mpixel resolution is quite enough for the size prints I tend to make. That's why I'm slowly letting go of the Hasselblad X equipment, although I am somewhat reluctant to let go of the 907x/CFVII 50c because of the back's functionality with my beloved old 500CMs. And the fact that it's the special edition, 1969 Moon Landing commemorative model. That, and the fact that I really love the old V system warhorses, is the gist of my emotional attachment to the Hasselblads.

G

 

[Paul Spinnler]

G - that's fair! I've gotten to like the new battery door in the M11 and I like the higher rez Visoflex 2 which in the case of the M10M only operates at reduced resolution. M10M is amazing in its own right. Beautiful grain structure at high iso ...

 

[Photon42]

I bought an M10-R to complement the M10-M with a color capable camera. Both of these cameras produce quality that may well last until I'm no longer interested in making photographs ... and, unlike buying an M11, all the batteries, chargers, Visoflex 020, half case, etc, are completely compatible between the two bodies. That saves me much more than the imminent drop in M10-M value!
[...]

Sounds very familiar