Hasselblad X2D and Leica S3 - Update 2: A difficult focus

[MGrayson]

Ok, we'll start with Soup. You can see how eager he was to help me test these lenses


But the opportunity to spread cat hair on something new overcame his reluctance (iPhone pic).


Even at ISO 3200 and wide open, we're talking 1/40 sec exposures here. So the S3, 120/2.5 .


Not sharp at all, but nice bokeh on the whiskers.

Now IBIS can keep the lens still, but it can't keep the cat still. So it took several shots to get this, but it is quite a nice trick. X2D, 120/3.5 wide open, ISO 6400:


And here's a crop.


Did I mention ISO 6400? Yikes!

But seriously, pictures from the real world next.

 

[jng]

Nice pics of Soup, Matt. I must say, the rendering of the Leica is sublime, even if most of Soup is out of focus.

I've also been blown away by the high ISO performance of the X2D. I took a nice portrait of a friend recently that was (accidentally) shot at ISO 6400, but you'd never suspect that by looking at the image itself.

John

 

[MGrayson]

So, the same walk in the park, same cameras, but 120 macro lenses. Same casual shooting method. What do we get? These are sharp lenses. Leica and Hasselblad colors (using their default profiles in LR, are close enough that one can pass back and forth with minor tweaks to WB. Disclaimer: I am not critical with color matching. If I like it, I'm fine. The X2D comes with more default sharpening - detail has halos that go away when sharpening is turned down. The S3 files never come in with halos, but they can, of course, be created.

99% of the difference is the difficulty and reliability of focus. As before, the S3 *can* be focused perfectly, but you can't rely on AF, unless you are in Live View, but then AF is very slow. Not that AF is always wrong, but you can't rely on it. The X2D rarely missed focus. Its problem is that IBIS lets you shoot at speeds that actively solicit subject movement.

Same cityscape as in the comparison of 100-ish lenses. This is with the S3, wide open.


And crop. The sky is white because 1/4000 sec is as fast as we can go, and shooting almost into the sun at f/2.5 needs faster (without ND filter). OTOH, the detail is sensor-limited; there is Moiré. NO color fringing - it's an APO.


The X2D wide open shows atmospheric turbulence better. This is the f/5.6 shot as the wide open was one of the rare X2D focus misses.


Random fall foliage on the S3. The plane of focus is a bit behind the front layer of leaves. Again, with time (and a tripod), this could have been adjusted. It's not a bad look, but it's odd. (I didn't try to match the colors with the X2D.)




With the X2D




As a macro, the Leica is superb,




By the time I got the X2D out, the wind arrived, and so I can't compare here. I'll get a better macro comparison sometime - I have no fears for the XCD 120/3.5.

I'll leave you with a few Alice closeups wide open. I didn't do a good enough job of shooting from the same spot, so the pictures really aren't comparable, so take them as is.

Leica S3


Hasselblad X2D


There were more, but you get the point. The S lens has f/2.5, the XCD lens has fast and reliable focus.

Matt

 

[Paratom]

I do not have unsharp images with any of the S lenses. My S3 can focus perfectly, even S100 portraits. I also find the S lenses perform excellently when you are in focus. I think it is a slower process though to get there whereby in the OVF you need to see before you shoot whether the AF has finished finding its target as the AF is slower. The AF can hunt, but it is usually clear when you have not yet achieved focus, at least I find it is manageable. The S for this reason is better for documentary, portraits, landscape, but not for point and shoot / action. This now almost sounds dramatically difficult, but in reality it is really not a problem - but a point and shoot it is not.

I tried the Hassy the other day in the store - felt like a larger Sony mirrorless with snappy AF. More “foolproof” for the average consumer, basically. Press the button and on the LCD it then focuses very quickly, almost like a compact Sony point and shoot where you focus by looking at the big LCD on the back. For me this is a totally different experience.

Clearly these are two different systems and mirrorless with point and shoot feel is the direction everyone is headed with resulting smaller systems, more compact lenses and faster AF. At one point they'll be like iphones just with bigger sensors and lenses resulting in a different look, but basically you can hand the Hassy to your grandma and she'll take a great shot of you courtesy of face detect AF, etc. – when even basic operating experience is less of a factor it somehow loses also its magic a bit, I feel. Shooting the S and coming home with a nice portrait series on the S100 is very rewarding ...

On the weight: once you started carrying such a smaller system it is difficult to go back to a large mirror based body for many and I think despite the S being a great system with fantastic optics also the S4 to come out in the next 1-2 years will follow this path and be like a smaller Hassy camera with a new set of lenses. I think this is the major benefit of mirrorless.

The good thing is that all the S glass will be useable and by then one should see the same snappy AF and compact build that the new Hassy has with the Leica touch.

I have taken out the S less out lately, I confess, primarily due to the weight around the neck when out and about with it the whole day so I am excited to see what is coming here. I cannot corroborate though that the S lenses are soft; I think you need to revisit this exercise ... and show us what you got!

I have used S2/S006 and S007 and betagtestes S3.
When the S came out I have taken some of my best images with the S. I love the look of sharp and detailed subject and smooth transition.
In contrary to your experience I did however struggle with AF accuracy in certain situations. The 100mm is not reliable focusing in my experience.
Just the fact the the Hassy x1d or x2d do focus more reliable doesn't make them a point and shoot camera IMO. I also find it far from Sony user interface. Its more like a
Leica T user interface, and it has many things in common with Leica, simple UI, not overloaded with buttons and functions.
I just don't want to sell the S, but I don't use it much any more.
I just decided to get a x2d (I already own lenses, had a x1dII before) - if we realize all MF cameras are not action cameras, then my medium format camera should be a camera where I can max IQ. In this regard accurate AF does help, and IBIS allows me to keep iso low, and small size allows me to bring the camera more often instead of FF.
So even my heart is closer to the S, I think the x2d is the better system for my purpose right now.
But I think it is far from point and shoot.

 

[Paratom]

great thread. I think IBIS and reliable af and small size/weight are some major advantages.
I believe if you nail it, Leica s lenses render more beautiful. But I am kind of tire of too many very slight out of focus images.
and ibis is quite an advantage, specially for medium format, where you have slower lenses and less DOF at comparable stops.

Will you keep both systems?

 

[MGrayson]

great thread. I think IBIS and reliable af and small size/weight are some major advantages.
I believe if you nail it, Leica s lenses render more beautiful. But I am kind of tire of too many very slight out of focus images.
and ibis is quite an advantage, specially for medium format, where you have slower lenses and less DOF at comparable stops.

Will you keep both systems?

Given the low resale for the S system, I will probably never sell it. When conditions are right, it is still my favorite, but I agree with you on the lower success rate.

I think I will continue to "invest" in the Hassy X system. I have the 21, 45, 90, and 120 (all used and fantastic bang for the buck). In my first rodeo with the X1D, I had the 30 as well, but never got to like it - I also don't have the S30 - it's just not my focal length. Ditto the 65. I think the 135+1.7x would be all I'd need. (I aslo have the HC 100/2.2, HC 150/3.2 and Zeiss 110/2, 250/5.6 and 350/5.6, which fill in some gaps .) The two new lenses don't do anything for me focal-length-wise, and the 45 does brilliantly in that range. The 90/2.5 might be interesting for portraits, as the current 90/3.2 is a bit slow (although VERY nice for landscape).

The point being that the X1D was not a pleasant camera to use due to its sluggishness. The S didn't seem old in comparison. The X2D is a completely different animal. I wonder how it would do in a winter storm. The Leica S has survived many without a hiccup.

 

[Paratom]

I am not sure the x2d is that much different from the x1d(II), except ibis and the display..
For me personally 55 could replace 45 and 65 one day.

 

[MGrayson]

I never had the X1D II. Was it faster starting up? Image transfer is also insanely fast on the X2D. But the IBIS as a focus aid is the most important thing for me. I don't want it for slower shutter speeds, but for stable magnified view it is - for me - huge. The 55 *could* replace the 45 and 65, but I already have a perfectly nice 45, so don't feel the lack. Perhaps if I am unwise enough to try one I'll feel differently. Ignorance is bliss!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I just want to add here that we are basically comparing an H system era Leica S to the next-gen X system. The S4, the answer to the X system, is in development and Peter Karbe is personally involved. It will be category-leading in the optics department. Patience is a virtue.

Leica may come late to the game, but they already signaled that the S4 will be fully retro compatible on top of sporting of course a new set of lenses. That's why I won't ever sell an S lens. They are beautiful on their own and exceed the current sensor in any case. My understanding from speaking to Leica people is that they (classic S) will resolve 100 megapixels plus – so still a lot of life in there.

The S system came out more than a decade ago and especially the advent of a mirrorless will now lead to a step change in all regards which is more than exciting.

I therefore will skip an X system to be ready for the S4. I am sure a basic kit will cost 20k+ when it comes out in a year or two and that it will be absolutely amazing in terms of functionality and optics. Leica had a lot of time to garner experience across their multiple camera systems and the S4 will benefit from this:

1) Video know-how from Panasonic and the SL line
2) Efficient and ultra-high tolerance manufacturing as evidenced by the SL primes leading to astounding performance (perfect already wide open, CA less, edge-to-edge sharpness)
3) Decades and decades of class-leading optical design know-how creating something special -> we will see 2.0 primes, APO, beautiful bokeh, fast AF, etc.
>> Karbe is involved - let's look forward to lenses with the Leica bokeh + micro contrast
4) AF - it will finally be good. After the S they really learned how to do it with the SL and the S4 will benefit from this
5) S system hallmarks such as weather sealing, endless battery life, and minimalist design -> he S4 will be a formidable tool with a beautiful design.
6) The ultimate Leica camera - compatible with all Leica lenses: M, SL, S classic
7) The S system always had a high end, differentiated sensor -> great colours are to be excpected

Since I have SL, M and S lenses I cannot wait for the S4.

IMHO good time to invest in S lenses as they are cheap for they bring to the table. How cool is it to buy the S4 and have already so many lenses to use it with?

It will be worth the wait, I am sure.

 

[SrMphoto]

I just want to add here that we are basically comparing an H system era Leica S to the next-gen X system. The S4, the answer to the X system, is in development and Peter Karbe is personally involved. It will be category-leading in the optics department. Patience is a virtue.

Leica may come late to the game, but they already signaled that the S4 will be fully retro compatible on top of sporting of course a new set of lenses. That's why I won't ever sell an S lens. They are beautiful on their own and exceed the current sensor in any case. My understanding from speaking to Leica people is that they (classic S) will resolve 100 megapixels plus – so still a lot of life in there.

The S system came out more than a decade ago and especially the advent of a mirrorless will now lead to a step change in all regards which is more than exciting.

I therefore will skip an X system to be ready for the S4. I am sure a basic kit will cost 20k+ when it comes out in a year or two and that it will be absolutely amazing in terms of functionality and optics. Leica had a lot of time to garner experience across their multiple camera systems and the S4 will benefit from this:

1) Video know-how from Panasonic and the SL line
2) Efficient and ultra-high tolerance manufacturing as evidenced by the SL primes leading to astounding performance (perfect already wide open, CA less, edge-to-edge sharpness)
3) Decades and decades of class-leading optical design know-how creating something special -> we will see 2.0 primes, APO, beautiful bokeh, fast AF, etc.
>> Karbe is involved - let's look forward to lenses with the Leica bokeh + micro contrast
4) AF - it will finally be good. After the S they really learned how to do it with the SL and the S4 will benefit from this
5) S system hallmarks such as weather sealing, endless battery life, and minimalist design -> he S4 will be a formidable tool with a beautiful design.
6) The ultimate Leica camera - compatible with all Leica lenses: M, SL, S classic
7) The S system always had a high end, differentiated sensor -> great colours are to be excpected

Since I have SL, M and S lenses I cannot wait for the S4.

IMHO good time to invest in S lenses as they are cheap for they bring to the table. How cool is it to buy the S4 and have already so many lenses to use it with?

It will be worth the wait, I am sure.

Do you have public sources, or is it from private conversations?
I only know of the FotoIntern interview with Stefan Daniel where he says that a mirrorless S is in development.

In a way, it is sad that the next S will be mirrorless, as I find the great OVF to be one of the main advantages of the current S system. However, the market is currently very unfriendly toward OVFs.
I hope that the new mirrorless S3 will use all the benefits of the excellent SL system. I also hope that Leica will, like X2D and M10/M11, eliminate video functionality and focus on still photography.

 

[hcubell]

The X2D is a completely different animal. I wonder how it would do in a winter storm. The Leica S has survived many without a hiccup.

I will let you know soon enough, as Winter has finally arrived in Vermont and my X2D will get a workout in 10 degree weather with snow. It’s unclear how much, if at all, the weatherproofing in the X2D has been improved over the X1DII. I did have to replace the LCD on my X1DII after an extended outing in a blizzard two years ago.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Do you have public sources, or is it from private conversations?
I only know of the FotoIntern interview with Stefan Daniel where he says that a mirrorless S is in development.

In a way, it is sad that the next S will be mirrorless, as I find the great OVF to be one of the main advantages of the current S system. However, the market is currently very unfriendly toward OVFs.
I hope that the new mirrorless S3 will use all the benefits of the excellent SL system. I also hope that Leica will, like X2D and M10/M11, eliminate video functionality and focus on still photography.

Yes, conversations. I have been a long time large Leica customer and sometimes get invited to VIP Leica events where I then have the opportunity to talk to managers.

The S4 will come and the fact that Peter Karbe is still around to “complete his mission” with the S system tells you what the stakes are for them. The real money makers of course are the M and the Q; the S sells comparatively very few units for many reasons incl. lack of a real professional service network, marketing mistakes and price point of the body. I mean not even every Leica store stocks the camera …

There is no question however that the S4 will be a resurrection of the S line in the sense that it will reignite the upper, upper end for Leica and because it poses the opportunity for them to reset the marketing, pricing, etc given it is mirrorless.

Even if one cannot afford any lenses, the fact that it will be fully compatible with all Leica lenses means it will be very easy to get into at the beginning for Leica customers.

I have no doubt it will be a big step forward for Leica when they bring it out.

I would not be surprised if they release a Leica M lens autofocus adapter with automatic lens recognition and automatic lens corrections. If anyone can do it then Leica.

So pls - keep your beautiful S, M and SL lenses - it will be amazing.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I also hope that Leica will, like X2D and M10/M11, eliminate video functionality and focus on still photography.

The x wanted to have video in there - the camera even has a little mic hole that is unused. It was rushed design-wise and during beta testing they decided to not release the feature as mentioned in the Verge review - probably due to heat management.

It would make a lot of sense for them to take all the SL video prowess into the S4 and build on that ie LUTs, 8k, etc. There is no nostalgic reason for them to not make it a powerhouse in all dimensions. Would be surprised if it didn’t redefine Leica’s video capabilities to be honest.

Other way put: Leica comes late to the mirrorless MF game, but to my knowledge they are the only ones developing a new MF system globally coming after Fuji and Hassy. As a result, they can draw from their learnings from the S3, SL line and also see what people like with the Fuji and X system.

Given they are fully integrated with the optics department just besides the production facilities it means they have a serious advantage in terms of iterating and perfecting the design. And time is on their side. They have all the time of the world to redefine the category with a flagship S4 system, including deciding now on the flange focal distance, lens mount diameter, autofocus mechanics, etc. No other company in the world could now produce such a camera based on such a wealth of experience and with an integrated R&D dept. At hand.

Exciting times ahead for Leica - not always bad to be the last one to join a party …

 

[Paratom]

I think itis kind of sad, several times Leica brought kind of revolutionary products ( like the S2 at this time) but then they dont get it managed to bring good updates ( successor bodies).
same with sl system, imo ahead and earlier than nikon and canon, but now nikon and canon have much better AF.
I will also keep my S lenses and see what the S4 will bring. But who knows when it will happen. And if it happens, what will it cost, and will it be anybetter than what Hasselblad offers today?
if Leica had managed to improve af accurancy in the S3 and include ibis eventually, I would have stayed with S probably. i am a little mad also, I spent sooo much for S system, and today there is just nothing available from them which I would call uptodate in regards of S body ( and pricing)
also they dont even communicate when we can expect such a camera.
with the x2d we get smaller lenses ( most of them, and makes quite a difference of portability ) we get ibis today, we get colors which are at least as good for my taste.
Yes, I would give the edge in rendering to the S lenses though.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

S4 is still off, like 2024. Next year we will see Q 60 megapixels and M11M.

What's good though is that they have a strategic partnership with Panasonic and the opportunity to design a new mount from scratch. So with everything new and the experience they have it may very well be that we'll have a new set of S mirrorless lenses which are a lot better in the AF department than anything before that.

They've come a long way in terms of AF from no AF (M) to bad to ok AF in the S, to ok to good AF in the SL and now hopefully very good AF in the S4.

Especially curious if they finally make a Leica-branded M AF adapter on the S4. Imagine how amazing this is to use the new upcoming Summilux 50 on the S4 alongside "vintage" powerhouses like the S120 APO or staller 35mm lenses such as the upcoming SL21 APO Summicron ... which btw will be a fantastic architecture lens given it will be APO, perfectly sharp from 2.0 onwards, without vignetting, etc. Just pop on keystone correction in C1 and done.

 

[hcubell]

No other company in the world could now produce such a camera based on such a wealth of experience and with an integrated R&D dept. At hand.

Exciting times ahead for Leica - not always bad to be the last one to join a party …

Only in an alternative universe where Sony, Nikon, Canon and Fuji don't exist.
It's possible at some point 2-3 years down the line that Leica could release a mirrorless successor to the S3, but I expect it would only be competitive with what Hasselblad already offers with the X2d in terms of design philosophy yet would likely be 2x more expensive for the body and lenses. By that time, Fuji will have also upgraded the GFX 100S and a Leica S4 would be 4-5x more expensive. The top tier existing S lenses cost $8-$10k today, and the R&D was done years ago. The top tier SL lenses and M lenses are already, what, $7k-$10k? What would the new S lenses cost? $12k? $15k? Do you really think there is a market for that? Back in 2016 when Fuji and Hasselblad jumped in to produce mirrorless MF cameras, Phase One was perfectly positioned to produce what you describe as an S4, yet they obviously decided that the market just wasn't there at the required price point to justify the R&D investment. From a financial standpoint, an S4 would make no sense and would never be produced. OTOH, it may still be produced as sort of a hobby loss project for Dr. Kaufmann. He is not subject to the usual limitations of ROI.

 

[Paratom]

The top sl lenses are more in the 4k range. Ok, top m lenses in the 6k range, but I assume this is also a matter of small size combined with excellent iq.
still I share your opinion, I am not sure if a new S would be competitive in price, specially if it would be just as good as others.
imo Leica should have invested more money to develop the S system over the last 10 years. Im have been dissappointed with the S3, which is just a S007 with a slightly improved sensor.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the problem was that it was clear that the S system as mirror-based camera is a dead-end and the choice to "just" do a custom sensor without further platform investments had also to do with other priorities in the company and the need to conserve capital. SL2 at the time got all marketing and R&D love as did the ongoing development of the M11 which came out I think two years late, meaning it was in development for even longer. The launch of the S4 will be capital intensive and occupy a lot of the attention of Leica's R&D team in the mid-term.

With the M11 platform with a Sony sensor as base now wrapped up (SL was Towerjazz), the SL lens production being perfected, there's now capacity also for the optics department to move a lot of resources into the development of a new S lens lineup. I mean the M11 also led to other needs, namely the release of the APO 35 M which is one of the best 35mm lenses ever produced; I think the next milestones are the SL21 APO, the Summilux 50 M and then the new S lenses, hopefully also a revised Noctilux 50 at one point. So a good point in time to set the benchmark for mirrorless MFD.

The point about Leica lenses was always that they cost a lot more than anything else in their time, but in return you'd get the best available quality. S system lenses are on average faster and of higher quality than H era lenses, etc. M lenses are better than Canon DSLR lenses, etc.

There's of course a market for an expensive S4, it is just not mass-market ...

 

[buildbot]

Technically, Leica (via Sinar) makes a mirrorless S camera already! The S30|45 can autofocus S lenses with an adapter: https://sinar.swiss/products/digital-backs/s3045-en-us/
If anyone has actually ever seen one, that is a different story...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Old Sinar Switzerland employees work at Alpa and I heard there's one or so in existence, but not sure. The joke is that they made adapters which are useless, basically:

190.060.020 ALPA Backadapter für Sinar S30|45 Digitalrückteile | ALPA Product Page

All the details and images of the ALPA product 190.060.020 ALPA backadapter for Sinar S30|45 digital backs; article no 190.060.020; May 13, 2024

de.alpa.swiss