The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Hasselblad X2D and Leica S3 - Update 2: A difficult focus

Paratom

Well-known member
SO beside those comparisons and images, what is your conclusion so far?
Which system do you prefer for which occasion and why?
There are 2 subjective points from my memory using S and now haveing used x2d (a little bit):
  • I prefer the size advantage of x2d over S.
  • I think to remember the S lenses to render a little more smooth bokeh and less vignetting. The closest lens seems the 80/1.9
  • I really like IBIS
  • I find the AF of the x2d more exact; with the S, specially with some lenses like the S100mm, it seemed more difficult to nail focus, specially at medium distances;
At the moment my S system collects dust; MP is same for me like for you - I dont really need the 100MP for my applications, doesnt hurt though
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
SO beside those comparisons and images, what is your conclusion so far?
Which system do you prefer for which occasion and why?
There are 2 subjective points from my memory using S and now haveing used x2d (a little bit):
  • I prefer the size advantage of x2d over S.
  • I think to remember the S lenses to render a little more smooth bokeh and less vignetting. The closest lens seems the 80/1.9
  • I really like IBIS
  • I find the AF of the x2d more exact; with the S, specially with some lenses like the S100mm, it seemed more difficult to nail focus, specially at medium distances;
At the moment my S system collects dust; MP is same for me like for you - I dont really need the 100MP for my applications, doesnt hurt though
I had an X1D (first version) and the 21, 30, 45, and 90 lenses. Nothing felt right. The 21 was too wide, the 30 not wide enough, the 90 not long enough nor large enough aperture. And the camera was slow slow slow. Perhaps it was my lack of Phocus (hah!), but the color profiles didn't grab me either, and I mostly converted to B&W.

What a difference a few years made! The biggest surprise is that I like the color every bit as much as the Leica's. They're not identical, but the X2D has an even more natural feel - something I could never get from the Fuji. The X2D + 21/4 is just a better carry around super-wide combo than the S3 + 24/3.5. I never thought I would say that. If I really want that 24mm FoV, there are pixels to spare (the only reason I DO like the high pixel count). For this kind of photography, which is 90% of what I do, the IBIS helps a little, the better AF helps more, and the half-the-weight helps the most!

The size advantage diminishes significantly as we go past 90mm. The S3+120/2.5 is a better balanced combo with better bokeh than the X equivalent, and the X2D+lens is even a bit longer. Here's where we should love IBIS.... but at this resolution and focal length, AF starts to break down for anything that isn't a really easy target. This means assisted manual focusing and here, the Leica is still superior. Unless I'm missing a setting screen, the live view magnification on the X2D is not very strong nor is its magnification adjustable. So there's nothing to help other than the (very good) EVF. Yes, IBIS keeps the image from jumping around, but it's still easier to tell exactly WHERE you're focused with the S with its higher magnification and focus peaking. So, very much to my surprise, it's easier (hand held no less!) to focus the S3 + 250/5.6 or S3 + 180/3.5 than the X2D + 135/2.8+1.7x. I expect that to shift to the Hassy's favor if and when they implement better focus aids. But I never count on future upgrades. What works now is all there is! And, as we often forget, 1/6 second at ISO 100 may be great to hand hold, but things can move a lot in 1/6 second. 1/120 second at ISO 2000 may be a better shot despite the decreased DR. Mountains may hold still for IBIS, but leaves, trees, people, and Soup will not.

Then there's the shutter. For XCD or HC lenses, of course, the X2D does swimmingly. But if you go outside that for, say, the Zeiss 110/2 or one of the Superachromats, (or Pentax 67 lenses :) oh, and I have a Mamiya 645 shift lens on the way) then you are stuck with the ES. IBIS helps here, but moving subjects are not going to look good, and indoor lighting makes horizontal bands due to its inherent flicker. The S, on the other hand, can use the leaf shutters on HC lenses and has a focal plane shutter for everything else. So we have the weird situation of old Hasselblad lenses working better on a Leica than on the new Hasselblad!

On lens rendering - I finally took my own advice and looked at the default settings. So often we think we're comparing cameras and lenses when what we're really comparing are some RAW converter's defaults. The Hassy images come into LR - even through Phocus - with more sharpening applied than do the Leica's. I changed the default to "no sharpening" and the rendering difference lessened considerably! This isn't magic, and the look of the S70 or S120 is not going to be perfectly matched, but it makes the X2D OOC results a lot more pleasing. (BTW, I just don't care for the Leica S100 - I can't give a reason, unless it's the difficulty focusing.) I have to explore the 135/2.8 in better light. I think I might like it a lot. The 120/4 has not yet endeared itself to me. Maybe if I took some macros...

So here we are. I prefer the X2D for things I was expecting the S3 to be better at and vice-versa! I expect that in a firmware update or two, I'll just prefer the X2D for (almost) everything. But I'm never selling the S glass. Like some of the Zeiss glass, or Leica M, it is the best of its generation. Will a mirrorless S4 bring it back to prominence? I don't know nor do I particularly care (again, the camera you can put in your hand now is the only camera that exists).

But in the end, when I next walk out the door, an X2D with XCD 21/4 mounted, a 45/3.5 and *maybe* a 90/3.2 will be in the bag.
 
Last edited:

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Matt – the S glass will be fully compatible with the S4 in addition to the new line-up of class-leading MFD lenses for mirrorless. I would also not be surprised if they'd open up the protocol for third parties once the S4 comes out - think Alpa or Novoflex compatible smart adapters with aperture control. M could be adapted with AF functionality based on latest gen Panasonic technology, ie phase detection ...

The S4 will be a watershed moment for Leica. The first "ultimate Leica" camera unifying M, SL, S classic and S next-gen lenses. Baiscally all Leica Lens investments are safe and imagine using the SL21 or SL24 with full IC in wide-crop sensor mode ...

On S next-gen: expect fully APO, edge to edge no compromise sharpness, 2.0-2.5 apertures, compact build, etc. – I would not expect anything less from Leica, to be honest.

Only gripe here is that this is a 2024 system, I think.

Leica still has to bring out the M11M, Q3, SL3 before that.

The retro-compatibility has been confirmed to me by Leica people in the know.

Do not forget what is happening here: you are comparing mirror-era optics to mirrorless-era optics – imagine how good Leica mirrorless-era MFD lenses will be. If the prior gen already beats current gen or equals it... basically perfect MFD optics are to be expected, like what the SL lenses are in the 35mm world atm ... and Karbe is working on the S4 stuff ... arguably the world's best photo lens designer.

It will be great.
 
Last edited:

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Matt – the S glass will be fully compatible with the S4 in addition to the new line-up of class-leading MFD lenses for mirrorless. I would also not be surprised if they'd open up the protocol for third parties once the S4 comes out - think Alpa or Novoflex compatible smart adapters with aperture control. M could be adapted with AF functionality based on latest gen Panasonic technology, ie phase detection ...

The S4 will be a watershed moment for Leica. The first "ultimate Leica" camera unifying M, SL, S classic and S next-gen lenses. Baiscally all Leica Lens investments are safe and imagine using the SL21 or SL24 with full IC in wide-crop sensor mode ...

On S next-gen: expect fully APO, edge to edge no compromise sharpness, 2.0-2.5 apertures, compact build, etc. – I would not expect anything less from Leica, to be honest.

Only gripe here is that this is a 2024 system, I think.

Leica still has to bring out the M11M, Q3, SL3 before that.

The retro-compatibility has been confirmed to me by Leica people in the know.

Do not forget what is happening here: you are comparing mirror-era optics to mirrorless-era optics – imagine how good Leica mirrorless-era MFD lenses will be. If the prior gen already beats current gen or equals it... basically perfect MFD optics are to be expected, like what the SL lenses are in the 35mm world atm ... and Karbe is working on the S4 stuff ... arguably the world's best photo lens designer.

It will be great.
Paul,
I say that “I don’t care”, but that’s now. When and if an S4 appears, I may care very much!
Matt
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Maybe I will care as well. But then...at what time and what price? How long will they take to offer new lenses (look at the SL system)? And where will be Hasselblad at this point of time?
I love Leica lenses and products but I believe Hasselblad has "closed" or "shrinked" the gap.
If I think how much money I spend for the S system I am disappointed that we are still at a camera (S3) which is basically not much different from the S2 except sensor and some small improvements.
Leica doesnt even official comment what we can expect in the future. I am still a Leica fan, but I feel the official communication is arrogant. I do know some people at Leica, so I get the info I need, but overall I believe the company would benefit a lot from communicating more open.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I would probably own an S3 if the original price was somewhat lower when it was introduced.
Today I enjoy the smaller size of the Hassy and its lenses. Look at the S45 vs xcd45.
On the other side the S zoom has a better range, and I kind of miss the S70 (however the xxcd65 is a good lens as well)
I wonder if the current S lenses would focus any faster (and less noisy) on a S4, than they focus on a SL camera.
Anyways, personally I will look at it when its available.
I don't want to wait for things that could happen, I rather look at things that are available.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I would probably own an S3 if the original price was somewhat lower when it was introduced.
Today I enjoy the smaller size of the Hassy and its lenses. Look at the S45 vs xcd45.
On the other side the S zoom has a better range, and I kind of miss the S70 (however the xxcd65 is a good lens as well)
I wonder if the current S lenses would focus any faster (and less noisy) on a S4, than they focus on a SL camera.
Anyways, personally I will look at it when its available.
I don't want to wait for things that could happen, I rather look at things that are available.
Camerasize.com doesn't have the S45, but it does have the S120, which is slightly SHORTER. So you can bring up the X2D + 45 compared to the S + 120.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
S4 allows them to reprice the product to around x levels with a Leica premium on top, but below the high price atm. I hope they get that you cannot do 20k for a body
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Leica M is unique but S not any more. I also hope they realize that there are some other nice mf systems out there when choosing prices.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
Leica M is unique but S not any more. I also hope they realize that there are some other nice mf systems out there when choosing prices.
S is unique as it is a rare camera that offers a fantastic OVF experience (the other is H6D). The viewfinder experience is one of the main elements of camera system enjoyment for me. Unfortunately, the weight is the other one.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I agree, in good light the optical viewfinder is great. Even though I personnaly dont feel so safe to manual focus with it. But real light in realtime feels very natural.
 

steveash

Member
Something that really surprised me when I transitioned from the S006 to the X1D was how much time I spend looking through the viewfinder, often with the camera turned off, visualising and contemplating pictures. It’s actually a major part of my creative process that I wasn’t really aware of. It’s a major reason I now have an S007 in addition to the X1D. I see the Leica as my creative, handheld camera while the Hasselblad I use in a more traditional larger format style where the shot is planned, probably lit, camera locked down, bracketing exposure and focus etc.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I am not aware of a better modern-day OVF than the one of the S3 - truly beautiful. First place, though, is the venerable Mamiya RZ 67 II - truly great and large. I always ask myself why manufacturers don't make larger magnifications to get this cinema feeling ... is there a reason OVFs stopped being amazing after analogue MF (except S3 ;))?
 

hcubell

Well-known member
I agree about just how wonderful things look when you look through an OVF of a MF camera. I am well aware of that from having used an H2 with Phase One backs for many years. Everything looks spectacular. However, the digital files when I open them in a raw converter and output TIFFs do not at all measure up to what I saw through the OVF. OTOH, my raw files from my X1d and X2D with an EVF look wonderful when I open them in LR or Phocus.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Ok, so it's not really *out* in the real world. My bad habit of shooting out the window returns! But it's in a good cause. Here's the problem, and we'll start with the view as shot with the X2D and XCD 135/2.8, ISO 100, 1/2000 sec. As you can tell from the horizon, this (and all other photos today) were hand held. Despite my verbosity in tripod threads, I really don't use them that much, and IBIS in the X2D is supposed to make ... oh, forget the excuses - I'm lazy.



That ball of brown leaves dead center is 15 feet or so in front of the tree limbs and branches behind it. It has a bright background, so that should give it high contrast edges. So.. what happens when we try to use AF and MF to capture the leaves with a few lenses on both cameras? We'll see the X2D with the XCD 135, XCD 135+1.7x, HC 150/3.2N, and Zeiss 350/5.6 SA. With the Leica S3, we'll get the HC 150/3.2N, S 180/3.5, and Zeiss 350/5.6 SA. We'll try both MF and AF (when available).

With the same camera and lens as above (X2D, 135/2.8), let's use AF with the smallest focus patch, and view crops at about 80% (no reason...)

Nope!

And here's MF. This is done using magnified view through the EVF, because that's all we got for manual focus assist on the X2D

Not bad at all. A bit of green fringe on the background limbs, but easily fixed in post.

Since we *can* use AF on the HC 150/3.2N, we do. Wide open, ISO 100, 1/2000 sec.

Another nope!

Manual focus?

Pretty good. The IBIS was not helping as much on focussing as one would like. A lot of color fringing, as this is an older lens design.

But NOW we can put this lens on the S3 and use its central shutter. Except I forgot. But these are very short exposures. We're interested in how bad .. good! how good the focus is.
Everything the same, but 1/4000 sec because we're using the focal plane shutter.

Yeah, no. Not using AF here, either.

MF? Here we have focus peaking in magnified view, but no IBIS.

Good. And faster (I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here. I know MF is easier on the Leica. I was hoping AF would not ALWAYS screw up.)

(Continued in part 2)
 
Last edited:

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
(Continued from part 1)

What's next? The Leica S 180/3.5 APO - a great and underused (by me, anyway) lens. ISO 100, 1/2000 sec, f/3.5

My God - AF that almost doesn't suck! Why didn't I use live view AF? Because I couldn't hold the camera still enough.
It says APO, and there's a lot less color fringing, but not none.

And MF with the same assists as before:

Good. And not just because I unfairly brightened the image to subtly influence the readership. Muahahah ... oh, damn. I'm not supposed to say that part out loud. Never mind.

Back to the X2D and the XCD 135/2.8+1.7x So f/4.8, 1/1150 sec ISO 100

Still can't do it. Have you noticed that neither camera with any lens can focus on this stupid bunch of leaves? I bet the Z9 could do it!

But MF:

Pretty darn good - because we can magnify enough to see what we're doing!

And finally, the X2D + Zeiss 350/5.6 SA ISO 100, 1/290 sec. IBIS FTW!


And the S3 + same, but 1/125 sec, which means I was very lucky.


Both successful Zeiss SA type images. You'll note the total lack of color fringing. Now MF on the X2D was aided by IBIS. Without focus peaking (or a tripod), I could never have manual focused a 350mm lens on the S3.

That's it for now. For my WA work, nothing has changed, but once I started trying to get that damned clump of leaves in focus, I had to try (almost) everything.

Matt
 
Last edited:
Top