Leica SL EVF

[glenerrolrd]

I ve been battling the “lack of brightness” in the Leica SL EVF now for a few weeks . Best way to visualize this is an underexposed photograph displayed on the LCD . or looking through the viewfinder wearing dark sunglasses.

I realize that most photographers find the Leica SL EVF stunning and that I am in the minority . However ...I shoot frequently in South Florida ..often at the beach and in high contrast brilliant light . In those situations the EVF picks up the exposure from the highlights and renders my subjects pure black . Impossible to see the subject or focus .

You could chalk this up to ..oh thats just how an EVF works ...except its not true . When you compare the Leica Q or a Sony RX1 ...the EVF is at least 2 stops brighter . For now set aside that shooting in bright sun is difficult with any camera unless you learn how to properly shade the viewfinder . I shoot a lot of sports ...Polo ,Tennis ,Volleyball , Surfing , Kite Boarding ,Baseball ...so I am familiar with hats,scarves etc to shade the viewfinder (really helps ).

As I understand it the EVF brightness is established the same way the exposure is picked up . Bright scenes reduce the “gain” and darker scenes (readings ) increase it . You can see this easily by increasing the exposure compensation as a +2 ..produces a much better brightness level . Unfortunately this has the effect of adding to the “real exposure “ . Generally I use the matrix meeting and let the camera balance the exposure ...but I can see that I will have to take more control of the exposure metering to balance the two systems (viewing and recording ) .

If anyone has a SL and maybe a Q ...could you meter a scene that includes some bright daylight sky ...on the SL I can t see into the shadows but the Q is about 1-1 1/2 EV brighter . In addition the Q can adjust the brightness of the EVF without affecting exposure . The SL can only adjust the LCD brightness.

 

[algrove]

I accompanied Roger yesterday and this issue was extremely frustrating for me to see as I had my Q aiong and I had no issues at the beach AND I normally set my EVF brightness to "Medium Low".

Having the SL display exact exposure in the EVF (instead of a nice bright view) is not necessary in my view since one can set exposure either manually or see the exposure within the EVF by toggling to that setting. As a result to me this issue defeats the superior EVF capabilities when the EVF darkens to compensate for the "correct" exposure and gives you a darker than normal EVF view. In the meantime, having to set the Exposure Compensation up to a level acceptable just to be able to see objects bright enough in the EVF is not what I would want to have to do for many shots, but for now that seems one option which works in addition to manual exposure which can defeat the systems benefits.

 

[doug]

I ve been battling the “lack of brightness” in the Leica SL EVF now for a few weeks . Best way to visualize this is an underexposed photograph displayed on the LCD . or looking through the viewfinder wearing dark sunglasses.

I realize that most photographers find the Leica SL EVF stunning and that I am in the minority . However ...I shoot frequently in South Florida ..often at the beach and in high contrast brilliant light . In those situations the EVF picks up the exposure from the highlights and renders my subjects pure black . Impossible to see the subject or focus .

You could chalk this up to ..oh thats just how an EVF works ...except its not true . When you compare the Leica Q or a Sony RX1 ...the EVF is at least 2 stops brighter . For now set aside that shooting in bright sun is difficult with any camera unless you learn how to properly shade the viewfinder . I shoot a lot of sports ...Polo ,Tennis ,Volleyball , Surfing , Kite Boarding ,Baseball ...so I am familiar with hats,scarves etc to shade the viewfinder (really helps ).

As I understand it the EVF brightness is established the same way the exposure is picked up . Bright scenes reduce the “gain” and darker scenes (readings ) increase it . You can see this easily by increasing the exposure compensation as a +2 ..produces a much better brightness level . Unfortunately this has the effect of adding to the “real exposure “ . Generally I use the matrix meeting and let the camera balance the exposure ...but I can see that I will have to take more control of the exposure metering to balance the two systems (viewing and recording ) .

If anyone has a SL and maybe a Q ...could you meter a scene that includes some bright daylight sky ...on the SL I can t see into the shadows but the Q is about 1-1 1/2 EV brighter . In addition the Q can adjust the brightness of the EVF without affecting exposure . The SL can only adjust the LCD brightness.

Is this the 'automatic viewfinder brightness' feature I've been complaining about?

 

[Godfrey]

I don't own a Q, but when I looked through it at the store I thought the viewfinder looked a bit too bright and slightly low contrast/washed out in appearance ... and I seem to recall reading a few threads with that theme on various forums.

The SL's EVF seems to be just right to my eye. In the brightest circumstances, I wear a hat with a wide brim (just like I do with other cameras, SLR, RF, and other EVF alike) and I can see very well with it. I can see much better with it than I could with the Sony A7, and it's on par with the Olympus E-M1, which I consider to be the best EVF viewing I've had until the SL's added resolution. The SL's viewfinder reminds me most of the Nikon F3 hp finder in overall brightness and magnification, but with the contrast/clarity of the R8 (the Nikon finder always seems a little low on contrast).

I do wish Leica would add some EVF adjustment capabilities in a future firmware rev. The Oly viewfinder is very configurable for color and brightness and, while I only rarely needed it, it is nice to know the capability is there.

It gets mighty bright here on the California coast and in the Nevada deserts too, although I haven't had the SL through a full Summer cycle yet to judge its behaviors there.

G

 

[Paratom]

just to understand:
You are saying the EVF is too dark before you halfpress the shutter release or after you halfpress the shutter release?

 

[glenerrolrd]

just to understand:
You are saying the EVF is too dark before you halfpress the shutter release or after you halfpress the shutter release?

Exposure Preview is off in the Camera Menu .

I use MF with AE/AL on the joy stick to trigger the “Back Button AF Method” used by most Canon and Nikon Sports Shooters .

Just tested it off my back porch .....two golfers on the green , blue sky /white clouds ..50/50 split . Very hard to see the golfers on the green . Cloudy /Bright lighting ..not brilliant but throws a shadow .

The EVF brightness is definitely automatic based on the exposure reading ....zooming in and cutting the sky to 20% of the image ...opens the shadows . Still overall its about 1 EV darker..a bit like wearing sunglasses . You can see but not well into the details and who knows about focus ?

You can see this very easily by going to manual exposure and using the exposure compensation to read 2 EV brighter . So clearly one work around seems to be set the exposure manually (after all how hard can that be on a brilliant day at the beach ) and then use the exp compensation to in essence over ride the meter reading .

The other option would be to use the joy stick for AE lock and set it on spot ...(Maybe one of the other buttons could be custom programmed ). And then us the release button for the AF . I need to experiment with these work arounds .

DOUG .......not sure if this is what you are referring to in your comment ?

TOM.....if you have a Q and the SL next time you are out ..use the SL as a 28 and compare the overall brightness with the Q set at normal brightness .


This feature (EVF brightness) is just implemented poorly . The purpose of the EVF is to SEE......to invasion the photograph,establish the composition and get the subject in focus . If you want to judge the exposure check your histogram (as it represents the DR of what you can record(sensor) ..not the DR of the EVF .

 

[Godfrey]

Roger,

It's a near-perfectly-white sky outside, and it's just about noon so the sky is very bright indeed. I have (Camera) Exposure Preview set on and (Settings) Display Settings set to Medium High (automatic makes it adapt a little too much to over-bright or dim circumstances). I don't know for sure whether the latter has any effect on the EVF adaptation.

There's no problem seeing shadow details of children playing on the dark parking lot across the street even with the sky being three-quarters of the frame and the exposure pushing down the overall shadow brightness. The AF (I also use the 24-90 in MF with the joystick set to AF-L) works fine. Of course, when I point the camera such that the exposure is evaluated with a smaller percentage of the sky in the frame, the shadows open up some but that's to be expected.

I believe what Doug is looking for is a way to permanently have the exposure simulation mode operating full time, essentially making the viewfinder into a WYSIWYG exposure meter.

G

 

[glenerrolrd]

Roger,

It's a near-perfectly-white sky outside, and it's just about noon so the sky is very bright indeed. I have (Camera) Exposure Preview set on and (Settings) Display Settings set to Medium High (automatic makes it adapt a little too much to over-bright or dim circumstances). I don't know for sure whether the latter has any effect on the EVF adaptation.

There's no problem seeing shadow details of children playing on the dark parking lot across the street even with the sky being three-quarters of the frame and the exposure pushing down the overall shadow brightness. The AF (I also use the 24-90 in MF with the joystick set to AF-L) works fine. Of course, when I point the camera such that the exposure is evaluated with a smaller percentage of the sky in the frame, the shadows open up some but that's to be expected.

I believe what Doug is looking for is a way to permanently have the exposure simulation mode operating full time, essentially making the viewfinder into a WYSIWYG exposure meter.

G

Without having a side by side comparison it is impossible to determine..if we are comparing apples to apples . I have exceptional eye sight but who knows if I am losing my ability to see into the shadows .

For me its very easy to see how the EVF is working . Keep both eyes open and adjust the exposure compensation until the EVF looks about as bright as your left eye perceives it . In dim light ..no question the EVF is terrific and should make my Noctilux a real treat . Its almost exactly one EV brighter than my left eye .

In bright light its the opposite ...about 1 -1 /2 EV darker . The brighter the light the more the difference . That about the same as wearing medium toned sunglasses ..I can t see detail in the shadows nearly as well as I could on a DSLR ..which is giving me a native view .

Since I believe you have a Q ..can you see a difference in bright sunlight between an Q and the SL . I did this test with David Farkes and two others ...everyone said the Q is one EV brighter . Without the comparison no one could see any issue . But after I pointed out the small details I was focusing on they could see the difference . Its just how the camera firmware was set up . They have to make a decision on how to use the limited DR of a EVF and the Q favored the shadows and the SL the highlights .

Only really effects the user in the extreme conditions ...but Sunny F16 is everyday in Florida this time of year . I never had a single problem shooting with Q in London last summer .

I can fix this by using exposure compensation (which I should have been using anyway ..but I would rather pull back the shadows and protect the highlights ). Or by just working with manual exposure in those very bright situations.

It should be adjustable in the camera ....the display settings only affect the LCD but not the EVF ..on the Q you can set both to your preference .

Now if you tell me your Q and SL are the same brightness in contrasty light ...then I have an equipment calibration issue.

 

[doug]

I believe what Doug is looking for is a way to permanently have the exposure simulation mode operating full time, essentially making the viewfinder into a WYSIWYG exposure meter.

Yup.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Ok .....I reread all of Sean Reids reports including the comparison to the Sony A7RII . Terrific insights I should have done this first . (Strongly recommend his reports if you are considering a Leica SL or the Sony A7RII. Depending on what you shoot and how.... you may find one or the other much better for you ).

He complains in a half dozen places about the limited DR range of the Leica SL EVF . It provides more resolution/detail but a full 2 stops less DR per his tests . He cites several examples that mirror my issues ..in high contrast situations the EVF will neither show enough detail in the highlights or allow you to see into the shadows . Really only applies in high contrast situations .....not bright or dark .

Because the SL reads from the exposure metering to establish its brightness ..you can t be lazy and rely on matrix metering ..you need to put the exposure where it should be using exposure compensation or locked spot metering (my observation ). You don t have DR to burn in using the EVF in contrasty light .

He does recommend that you try setting the JPEG recording to low contrast (which I will try tomorrow ).

 

[Godfrey]

Sorry: No, I don't have a Q. I only looked at one at the store.

Well, the SL viewfinder might not be perfect for you, but it seems to work fine for me.
I really couldn't be happier with the camera; every time I use it, I like it more.

G

 

[aDam007]

If you ever read my review on the Q, you would know that the EVF is inaccurate. It rates the scene about 1 stop to bright. The EVF on the SL is very accurate. What you see is really what you get (assuming auto exposure). This is how it should be.

As far as DR is concern. Yes, a bit limited. But you're welcome to set your EVF to WYSIWYG mode. That way you can control the exposure and it'll allow you to see what you intend to focus on and shoot.

 

[doug]

As far as DR is concern. Yes, a bit limited. But you're welcome to set your EVF to WYSIWYG mode. That way you can control the exposure and it'll allow you to see what you intend to focus on and shoot.

My complaint is that WYSIWYG mode a.k.a. exposure preview mode isn't sticky. The camera reverts to automatic viewfinder brightness mode after each exposure.

 

[Paratom]

Exposure Preview is off in the Camera Menu .

I use MF with AE/AL on the joy stick to trigger the “Back Button AF Method” used by most Canon and Nikon Sports Shooters .

Just tested it off my back porch .....two golfers on the green , blue sky /white clouds ..50/50 split . Very hard to see the golfers on the green . Cloudy /Bright lighting ..not brilliant but throws a shadow .

The EVF brightness is definitely automatic based on the exposure reading ....zooming in and cutting the sky to 20% of the image ...opens the shadows . Still overall its about 1 EV darker..a bit like wearing sunglasses . You can see but not well into the details and who knows about focus ?

You can see this very easily by going to manual exposure and using the exposure compensation to read 2 EV brighter . So clearly one work around seems to be set the exposure manually (after all how hard can that be on a brilliant day at the beach ) and then use the exp compensation to in essence over ride the meter reading .

The other option would be to use the joy stick for AE lock and set it on spot ...(Maybe one of the other buttons could be custom programmed ). And then us the release button for the AF . I need to experiment with these work arounds .

DOUG .......not sure if this is what you are referring to in your comment ?

TOM.....if you have a Q and the SL next time you are out ..use the SL as a 28 and compare the overall brightness with the Q set at normal brightness .


This feature (EVF brightness) is just implemented poorly . The purpose of the EVF is to SEE......to invasion the photograph,establish the composition and get the subject in focus . If you want to judge the exposure check your histogram (as it represents the DR of what you can record(sensor) ..not the DR of the EVF .

I dont have a Q anymore, but so far I have not experienced a problem. I will keep an eye on it.
It sounds the easyest solution would be to extend the option to increase brightness of EVF in a menue per firmware.

 

[fotografz]

I believe what Doug is looking for is a way to permanently have the exposure simulation mode operating full time, essentially making the viewfinder into a WYSIWYG exposure meter.

G

Does this mean that the SL can't be set to full-time "Setting Effect On" like the Sony A7R-II?

Even if it could be set that way, is Roger's issue something different? Like him, I shoot in South Florida where it has been extremely crisp and clear lighting, and a lot of it.

While I went with the A7R-II for now, I am still interested in a SL when Leica releases the "S" adapter since I have an array of S lenses I'd like to use on a faster, higher ISO camera than my S(006).

- Marc

 

[Godfrey]

Does this mean that the SL can't be set to full-time "Setting Effect On" like the Sony A7R-II?

Even if it could be set that way, is Roger's issue something different? Like him, I shoot in South Florida where it has been extremely crisp and clear lighting, and a lot of it.

While I went with the A7R-II for now, I am still interested in a SL when Leica releases the "S" adapter since I have an array of S lenses I'd like to use on a faster, higher ISO camera than my S(006).

- Marc

(bolded) Roger's issue is something different.

Regards the "full-time 'Setting Effect On'", this is indeed the default but Leica implements preview modes differently compared to Sony. For the SL:

- (FN button) short press :: Normal | Aperture Simulation | Exposure Simulation

Pressing the FN button engages three different preview modes in rotation. These operate somewhat differently depending on whether you are using a dedicated SL or T mount lens vs an adapted M, R, or other lens.

Normal mode is designed to keep the viewfinder consistently bright for focusing and framing in normal use. The brightness level is somewhat variable dependent upon both ambient illumination and evaluated exposure. (This is Roger's issue: He finds the viewfinder too dim and contrasty in normal circumstances under bright, contrasty lighting. I don't find this to be the case, the source of our disagreement. The SL offers no adjustment of the EVF baseline brightness at the present time; it does offer adjustment of the LCD baseline brightness—automatic, then from high to low in five steps.)

Aperture Simulation (aka DoF Preview) mode allows you to evaluate exposure and focus zone by forcing the lens to stop down to taking aperture when it is enabled. This is a 'press-on, release when exposure or another mode is selected' operation. With adapted lenses, it has no effect since the camera*body is not in control of the aperture setting, and the exposure system continues to adapt to changing light situations. With the SL lens, it locks the exposure setting and stops down the lens so that you can see how that setting affects the scene as you move around the scene with the lens. The behavior may be influenced by exposure time following the Auto ISO range setting or minimum exposure time setting, and that may differ between the SL lens and adapted lenses.

Exposure Simulation mode is also a 'press-on, release when exposure or another mode is selected' but it goes a step further than the Aperture simulation. Exposure simulation takes full account of the exposure time that the metering system evaluated as well as stopping down the aperture. With the SL lens, the exposure is locked and the simulation shows what the exposure will evaluate to with full exposure time elapsed. With an adapted lens, the exposure continues to float dynamically. "What the exposure will evaluate to with full exposure time elapsed" means that for long exposures, if you have the histogram view active, you can see the camera accumulating the exposure in steps; for example, if the camera is in Manual exposure mode and the exposure set is three seconds in duration, you will see the histogram and display brightness step a couple of times until three seconds have elapsed and then the exposure will stabilize and the histogram accurately reflects the true exposure. (I have found exposure simulation mode to be invaluable when setting exposure for use with macro tubes or bellows with lots of extension and long exposure times.)

- (Camera Menu) Exposure Preview ON|OFF

The exposure preview feature works when the shutter release is half-pressed. The default is "ON". What this does is a similar to exposure simulation on the FN button but the behavior differs depending upon whether you are using AutoISO or a fixed ISO setting. With AutoISO, the maximum exposure time setting in the AutoISO Settings is enforced and the half press will adjust the viewfinder to reflect the exposure that will be made. It is particularly useful to set "OFF" when working with manual exposure and flash units. For example, if you've set ISO 200 and 1/125 sec for use with your studio flash at f/11, when you half-press the shutter release with Exposure Preview set ON the viewfinder will dim to almost black in many circumstances, making it difficult to see the subject at the moment of exposure. Turning Exposure Preview OFF allows the brightness of the viewfinder to be preserved for focusing, framing, and seeing the moment of exposure clearly.
​

Sony's implementation of Display Preview is much simpler: in the A7 (IIRC) it implements its notion of exposure simulation all the time, allowing the EVF/LCD to be essentially a visual exposure meter. It doesn't do the full exposure simulation the way the SL does—there is a limit to how much light the display refresh will accumulate to track actual exposure. I don't recall that it would track (or stay bright) even with proper exposure settings past some large fraction of a second (say 1/10 or 1/5) but I no longer have the A7 body to experiment with to ascertain the limits. It's behavior with flash is the same as the SL, which is why they give an option to disable it. It works nicely in the exposure time range that Doug uses (I doubt Doug is shooting birds with a 500mm lens at multiple second exposure times ... but doesn't work particularly well in the circumstance where the SL's exposure simulation works well for me (macro capture of small negatives with bellows and 2.8:1 magnification ...).

There are many times with all these automation systems that I throw up my hands: I turn the camera to manual exposure, disable all preview modes, and just use a hand held meter. It's just too much trouble to figure out the right combination of automation and preview settings, and I know what I'm going to get with an exposure meter and manual settings. Never mind the fact that I can make an exposure and see the result a second later, adjust and reshoot if I'm working with more static subjects.

onwards,
G

 

[doug]

Does this mean that the SL can't be set to full-time "Setting Effect On" like the Sony A7R-II?

Yes that's correct. Once the SL's equivalent to "Setting Effect ON" is enabled the camera reverts to a mode like "Setting Effect OFF" after each exposure.

(bolded) Roger's issue is something different.

Normal mode is designed to keep the viewfinder consistently bright for focusing and framing in normal use. The brightness level is somewhat variable dependent upon both ambient illumination and evaluated exposure.

As Godfrey notes "There are many times with all these automation systems that I throw up my hands: I turn the camera to manual exposure, disable all preview modes, and just use a hand held meter." A dark subject on a sandy beach or in the snow for example. A hand-held meter isn't an option for me.

Sony's implementation of Display Preview is much simpler: in the A7 (IIRC) it implements its notion of exposure simulation all the time, allowing the EVF/LCD to be essentially a visual exposure meter.

This is an option I'd like to see in the SL. IMHO it's one of the biggest advantages of an EVF. If I were going to make an exposure and review it second or two later to evaluate exposure I might as well use a DSLR instead.

 

[Godfrey]

...
As Godfrey notes "There are many times with all these automation systems that I throw up my hands: I turn the camera to manual exposure, disable all preview modes, and just use a hand held meter." A dark subject on a sandy beach or in the snow for example. A hand-held meter isn't an option for me.

Or the in-camera meter, manually, I should have added. But I understand...

...
This is an option I'd like to see in the SL. IMHO it's one of the biggest advantages of an EVF. If I were going to make an exposure and review it second or two later to evaluate exposure I might as well use a DSLR instead.

Hmm. It's useful occasionally, but it's not the biggest advantage for me. Once EVFs gained enough responsiveness and resolution, I found them easier to see and focus with then optical reflex finders, in a wider range of lighting circumstances. The ability to do magnification for focusing assist is the biggest advantage for me, particularly with very short focal lengths.

I've never been one to use the viewfinder as an exposure metering tool .. the characteristics of an LCD or EVF are simply too far from a calibrated, color managed display for that to be accurate. The histogram display and saturation 'blinkies' work better for me in exposure evaluation.

At least with an EVF, you can see the result of your exposure through the viewfinder immediately after making it, without taking the camera from your eye. You can even set it to do that automatically, for a specified duration, with auto-review. That's not possible with any DSLR that I'm aware of.

But I can see the opportunity for full-time live exposure simulation, with the limitation of the Sony EVF Display Preview for sake of making the camera usable in most circumstances. This is what the (Camera Menu) Exposure Preview option does, only it works only on the shutter half press instead of full time.

Related to the SL's exposure preview ... I'd also like to see the AutoISO Maximum Exposure setting have an override option so that when the max ISO is reached and there is no option other than to extend exposure time, it can happen automatically and not underexpose the photo if I don't stop what I'm doing, set an appropriate fixed ISO, etc. That's caught me out several times to the point where I am using AutoISO less frequently now; it's easier to just leave the camera set to ISO 400 most of the time. (Luckily, it produces a very clean image at ISO 400...

G

 

[doug]

... Once EVFs gained enough responsiveness and resolution, I found them easier to see and focus with then optical reflex finders, in a wider range of lighting circumstances. The ability to do magnification for focusing assist is the biggest advantage for me, particularly with very short focal lengths.

There's this too and the SL viewfinder is exemplary.

 

[JorisV]

Does this mean that the SL can't be set to full-time "Setting Effect On" like the Sony A7R-II?

Even if it could be set that way, is Roger's issue something different? Like him, I shoot in South Florida where it has been extremely crisp and clear lighting, and a lot of it.

While I went with the A7R-II for now, I am still interested in a SL when Leica releases the "S" adapter since I have an array of S lenses I'd like to use on a faster, higher ISO camera than my S(006).

- Marc

Hi Marc,

Just out of curiosity, would you consider selling the S once the S-adapter and tethering become available and provided that the S-adapter fully supports CS lenses?

Thanks, Joris.