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Non-troll serious MF conundrum

I use the 006 and I printed my last exhibitions at 1mX1.5m, and the images look great at that size...sure, more resolution would mean more resolution, but you are already so far ahead of what the general public is used to seeing, even in museums and galleries, that you are splitting hairs. The Leica lenses are also excellent, so whatever other system you use will need to match or exceed their resolution, otherwise all the extra megapixels will mean nothing.

So I would advise a separate take...rather than worrying about the specs, I would say use the camera that you most enjoy using, rather than chasing ever higher resolution. Choose the camera gets you closest to your ideal result in the quickest and most painless manner, as that is really the one to get. They really are tools, and the more comfortable and familiar you are with the tool, the better the result is going to be, especially at this level of the market...all of these cameras are so far beyond the normal that they are mostly beyond criticism from a technical standpoint, at least in the right hands!
 

jerome_m

Member
The Leica lenses are also excellent, so whatever other system you use will need to match or exceed their resolution, otherwise all the extra megapixels will mean nothing.
That is a very good point: Leica S lenses are amongst the finest money can buy. For me, they would be the only reason to buy a Leica S. And it is not sharpness, but rendering which is outstanding.

Hasselblad H lenses are also excellent. Technically a bit less advanced, because they are not as fast, but their rendering is also outstanding. But (there is a "but"): the rendering between them is different, so one may like it... or not.

I am not talking about Pentax or Phase (Mamiya) lenses, because I do not know them enough.
 
I would say that from the printer's perspective, the best arbiters of quality are the lens performance and character (not just sharpness, but also distortion, fringing and other color issues) and the absolute file quality at 100%. The look of the file at 100% is more important than the actual resolution. So a fantastic 20mp will usually look better than a mediocre 36mp in almost all circumstances. This is the area with MFD and cameras like the Leica S do so well. They have a sharpness and color fidelity in their base ISO's that most 35mm digital do not achieve easily, and therefore they tend to look better irrespective of resolution.

I would say the lenses are most important, followed very closely by absolute quality at 100%, followed by resolution in MP...all these are within limits of course! But they hold true for most modern camera systems.
 

satybhat

Member
What subjects are you shooting Saty? Commercial or for pleasure?

To be honest, you have shot with some really fantastic kit and you're probably in a better position to offer advice than most! If you have a really clear idea of what you want to shoot and what the output will be then the options will naturally present themselves I would think.

I decided ages ago that if I need something to work with then I would look at what I could shoot with now and go with what suited best, what might be around the corner is of no interest to me if I need to be working now. That said, with the Hasselblad not far off being in the shops then you're in a great position to try it and compare against your XF experiences.

Bottom line is what are you missing from what you already own? What has renting kit told you about what's available now? And just as important, what do you want to shoot with?! If I was asking the same questions as you, I'd have the S 006 kit for portrait work, love it! Keep my IQ260 and Cambo just for architecture projects as it's brilliant and buy a D500 for the odd event/low light jobs, that would do everything! I have sold hundreds of prints from the S at decent sizes and have a number of 60x120cm cropped panos on my walls from single files and they look really nice, I wouldn't be worried about the S files keeping up. Have you tried the 007?

Looking forward to hearing what you go with.

Mat
Thank you everyone for chiming in.
My planned projects for the next 3 years are all Fine art landscape: I shoot less wides and more mid-tele intimate scapes. (scapes auto-corrected to scares, and my son giggled beside me).

S006 + 100 is excellent for portraits. unbelievable, actually. I wish I had the resources for 2 systems.
Hassy vs phase: that's where it comes down to.
XF: has focus stacking, Hassy has Tru-focus for the quick grabs.
Phase is just too overpriced compared to Hassy. And i think its because their spend on marketing. If they toned that down, it would translate to at least 5k less per system. But still XF is a great system. Just not sure how it compares to H5D-H6D in handling / weather sealing, etc.

Lenses: would likely go for something wide, 50-110 zoom / 35-90 zoom or 40-80 if phase. and one tele.
I usually travel with one or two lenses only, to allow design constraints. I feel limiting choices fuels my creativity.

Tech cam: Love them, and will use them, but drives my family crazy. Mostly I don't venture by myself, since I don;t get much time off to allow both singular trips and family holidays. Hence holidays = shoots (fine arts). I've given up commercial this year for good, unless it comes as a blog / book sometime 5-10 years into the future.
Website coming in a month or so.

Just wish someone made a 6x6 digital.
:D:D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I'm in the camp of keeping the Leica S(006), and adding a H6-100. It truly is the best of both worlds IMHO.

Also agree that it is all about the lenses at this level of image performance.

So, I'd then be selective about which lenses for each kit ...knowing that you can use any of the HC/HCD lenses on the Leica with the H to S adapter. I did that for some time when I had an S2 and a H4D/60.

In my experience the Leica S100/2 is irreplaceable ... not that the HC100/2.2 is any slouch, but the S100 is just out front of the pack in all ways you want a portrait lens to be, and the S camera's 1/4000 focal plane shutter is still a stop faster than the H6 with the new updated H LS lenses. Sounds like you already know all that.

For example, the HC50/3.5-II is in a class of its' own ... probably the best H lenses to date ... and it sings on the S camera both for CS and FP use. It is also a nice size on the S compared to the Leica CS45 I now have, and it optically matches the S45 in most every measure except speed (2.8 verses 3.5)

BTW, True-Focus-Absolute Position Lock (TF/APL) is more than just an auto-focus/repositioning innovation ... it also takes into account any lens focus shift and nano corrects it. Plus, you can control the H shutter delay in small increments to aid in hand held shots ... worked like a charm for me.

IMO, Hasselblad has under-marketed many of their camera features and some of their more recent lens updates. IMO, the only Hasselblad lens to avoid is the HC-35 which is over-due for a make-over.

- Marc
 
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Nick-T

New member
Great post thanks Jerome.
I think the cut off on the D lenses is overstated, I will find out exactly what the impact will be on the 100MP.
Apparently the crop will be the same as on the 60MP chips, not huge I don't think? You also have the option to turn off the crop.
 

jerome_m

Member
Apparently the crop will be the same as on the 60MP chips, not huge I don't think? You also have the option to turn off the crop.
The crop is the same because the sensor size are the same. What would bother me, however, is that it is not marked in the viewfinder, so I would not know how to really compose the final image. Otherwise, one can live with about 90 mpix instead of 100 with the 35-90, 28 and 24mm lenses.
 
...Plus, you can control the H shutter delay in small increments to aid in hand held shots ... worked like a charm for me.... - Marc
Can you share your setting for the shutter delay? The range is from 25 ms to 200 ms, default at 50ms. I am using 100 ms for handheld shots now on the H5D-50c after trying 25 and 50 ms, but with those I felt that that the results were less sharp due to the large mirror flap. Thanks for feedback.
 

tjv

Active member
If I was spending Saty's money and I was going to do as tjv suggests and mix the S with a Hasselblad then for me it wouldn't be the 50c, it's another crop sensor and the S lenses are so good, I would have to have the 100c to give some value to the blad over the S. Just my opinion and Saty's money! Haha!

I don't know what Saty's priorities are, for me, the only reason to add a XF or H6 to the S would be to have the option of a tech cam for architecture or landscapes, the Phase would win for me in that situation.

Mat
Absolutely right, if money was no object... :poke:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Can you share your setting for the shutter delay? The range is from 25 ms to 200 ms, default at 50ms. I am using 100 ms for handheld shots now on the H5D-50c after trying 25 and 50 ms, but with those I felt that that the results were less sharp due to the large mirror flap. Thanks for feedback.
I guess it depends on how steady you are at hand-held work in general. I tended to use 50ms but did set 100ms on occasion. The question is whether 100ms has made a difference for you, or are all delays inadequate? It is just an aid to limit the effect of mirror impact, but it is not like "IBIS. I wish my Leica S had this shutter delay selection feature ... and I really wish it had True Focus/APL.

- Marc
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Some reflections…

Hi,

Staying with Leica may make some sense. AFAIK it is a very fine camera with very fine lenses. I would not be happy with those 37 MP, though.

But, going from 37 to MP to 50 MP is not a lot. So I don't know if going to the Pentax 645Z makes that much sense.

I you need 100 MP than you can go with either Phase or Hassy. With Hassy the difference in price may buy you a kit of lenses.

Do you need those 100 MP, hard to say… From what I have seen I would say that 24 MP is good enough for A2 (16" x 23"), having that as a reference you would need 96 MP for 32"x46". Viewing distance obviously plays a role.

It used to be said that 180PPI is needed for a very good print, printing at 40x60 you would need around 80 MP for that, obviously you can assume a longer viewing distance and relax requirements quite a bit.

It would be natural for Leica to progress to higher resolution, especially as I would suggest that higher resolution is really needed to make those fine lenses justice.

A great advantage with the Hasselblad and Phase One backs is that you can put them on technical cameras.

Last but not least, don't forget that subject, tripod and photographer may matter much more than lenses or sensors…

Best regards
Erik

Now perhaps, this actually being NOT a troll post, might not get the traction that some others recently have, but here goes, since I really need to ask the question.

I've spent the last 4 years working with the following:

-Leica S-006 + 30-90 + 100f2 + 30 non-cs. I'm OK with everything, save the 2x3 format. Most of my work is cropped to either 5x4 format or 1x1 square.
-Hassy V with film backs.
-Phase DF+ and IQ 280,
-Recently for 2 months on 2 jobs: Phase XF + IQ3100.
-A currently backless Alpa STC with 40HR.

The Leica S and Hassy V I own. All other gear was borrowed / limited use rentals etc.
I would like to have print sizes upto a metre on the short side.
I will be getting into Digital MF 'once and for all' by the end of this year.

My conundrum is this: Should I consider the H6D over the XF ? Hasselblad will give me a good rebate on my S-006.
Should I consider the Pentax 645z (weather-sealed and 4x3) and sell the S006 ?
Should I wait for the Pentax (next edition) since they have access to the sony sensor as well?

It is interesting to note that the Hasselblad marketing until now has been way way behind the phase marketing. They never even marketed their 'True-focus'. That's illogical !!
TBH, the excessive phase marketing is what has prompted me to ask this question in the first place.
Any input on Hasselblad dealerships in Australia?

Thanks for your inputs.

Saty
 

tjv

Active member
Hassey has the HTS, something that can also be used on the S apparent WITH autofocus. Imagine using that with the 100c and live view. A great stopgap for a tech camera, all be it with some quality and movement compromise.
 

jerome_m

Member
Hassey has the HTS, something that can also be used on the S apparent WITH autofocus. Imagine using that with the 100c and live view. A great stopgap for a tech camera, all be it with some quality and movement compromise.
The HTS includes a x1.5 converter, so the 100mm becomes a 150mm. I don't see how useful movements could be with what is a small tele.

Of course, the HTS is very nice:
  • with the 24 and 28 mm for perspective control (e.g. interior architecture)
  • and with the 50 and 80mm for product photography (the 50 with its macro adapter being particularly good)
 

satybhat

Member
The HTS includes a x1.5 converter, so the 100mm becomes a 150mm. I don't see how useful movements could be with what is a small tele.

Of course, the HTS is very nice:
  • with the 24 and 28 mm for perspective control (e.g. interior architecture)
  • and with the 50 and 80mm for product photography (the 50 with its macro adapter being particularly good)
Again, no examples of using the HTS on the internet.
That 50 macro adapter situation is exactly what I would benefit from with my work.
Before the MF game, I used the 24 PCE and 45 PCE on a Nikon D700 with good use.
Hasselblad could manage SOME marketing for these things... Some youtube videos, some website videos, something?
Jeez, even my small medical clinic gets more marketing attention than this !!
Again, thank for the opinions, everyone.
 

modator

Member
This is a simple shot example of what the 100mm and HTS 1,5 can do, is a test the focus is by eye without any particular precision, the focus area is tilted by 11º* so only a band marked by the grey scale is relatively on focus.
The shot is made F3,4 (full open) it's soft , the distance between the subject is the closest possible (around 1,2 m), sometime I use this combination, anyway if the tilt or shift is not needed using the HTS like a teleconverter is performing a little worser than using TC1,7 (but you will get a 170mm) that's a little worse than an HC 150n...




Best regards, Domenico.


Again, no examples of using the HTS on the internet.
That 50 macro adapter situation is exactly what I would benefit from with my work.
Before the MF game, I used the 24 PCE and 45 PCE on a Nikon D700 with good use.
Hasselblad could manage SOME marketing for these things... Some youtube videos, some website videos, something?
Jeez, even my small medical clinic gets more marketing attention than this !!
Again, thank for the opinions, everyone.
 
Thank you everyone for chiming in.
My planned projects for the next 3 years are all Fine art landscape: I shoot less wides and more mid-tele intimate scapes. (scapes auto-corrected to scares, and my son giggled beside me).
:D:D
The 645z and stacks upon stacks of money. The mid-tele's are still performing well, by those I mean the 120 Macro and 150/2.8. If THOSE aren't good enough, the Hasselblad V options surely will be. The 28-45 is best in class for a wide angle zoom, and the 55 & 90mm lenses are extremely well regarded. See the recent thread comparing the Z to a Phase back and how surprised everyone was at how well the Z performed. The Z is the only camera in this discussion that was seemingly designed with landscapes in mind. It's thoroughly a field camera. You can pixel peep or compare all you want but when it comes down to it, the Z is more than capable of stunning large prints, and it's sensor is still basically state of the art. Pentax is pretty obviously going to make a 100mp full frame body in the next year or so, and with it will come a few new lenses too. They're currently developing their middle and telephoto zooms (according to the roadmap), and if the 28-45 is any indication, this is something they know how to do very well. You will lose tech support, but film could be a suitable replacement, they still make Velvia 50 after all. The Phase and Hassy cam's really sing in the studio or a tethered and strobed environment. Outside of that, I think the advantages narrow significantly.
 

MrSmith

Member
some serious CA/fringing with that HTS image.
i have retouched a fair few images shot with the HTS and that gave me a good insight as to what it could do. i immediately dismissed it as a serious option for what i shoot. i’m sure some people get on with it but i felt it brought down good lenses to merely mediocre.
 
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