Phase one body and back suggestion for products/portraits

[Paul Spinnler]

P3 is amazing for Macro; they are also cheap nowadays.

 

[MGrayson]

CCD backs are usable if you're willing to iterate. Exposures are cheap. Shoot - view - adjust - repeat until happy.

 

[Allthink_]

no ccd back have a usefull live view, you could use a sliding back with good glass to check the focus and the composition- but if you want to use a technical camera.
this would be a real differance in product shots. When you want to use your camera outside, with available light, so ccd is also not the right back.
All depends on your way of working and what you are looking for. I use all tree back/cameras: CCD 80MP back, Fuji gfx100S and IQ250. I even use sometimes an old 39 MP h3D system, it have also a special look. They all have different advatages, maybe start with fuji- is cheap- and then try something else when it is nt yours.
XF-DF: you can use both backs on both cameras, I still use a DF, it is not special, but XF dont give me so muchmore than I would spend so much money.
2,8/110 mm LS schneideris a great and sharp lens for portrait, for strong bokeh 2,8/150 mm. I use them, white ring, at aperture 4-5,6 really good. thay have diffenet,more pleasing look, better bokeh than Fuji, but fuji 1,7-80 mm is in technical way a much modern and better lens, that can be used even wide open with crazy sharpness, but it is very clean, maybe too perfect.

Thank you very much, interesting things
Why I can't use IQ 60 outside with available light?
Let's say for portraits I have my full frames. If for product shots, which options you suggest? Lens and back combinations.
I also shoot architecture/interior design but for that I have all tils shifts and full frames cameras.
Never had fuji 50/100, neither IQ camera or Hasselblad one.

 

[Allthink_]

Second daz7's suggestion, a view camera is definitely a better platform for products, in addition to p3, monolith is another great workhorse.

Portrait wise, if you solely intend to shoot in studio, then I think you may get away with older DF+ body, since you can manual focus, pre focus or shoot enough depth of field. If you do wish to have the ability to work on location, then XF would be a better option, as AF would be more in line with modern cameras.

Combining optical viewfinder and tethering, I'd imagine you can fine tune the composition and focus frame by frame until you are happy, that's where view camera comes in handy, allowing you to adjust various movements independently.

If I can get products with DF+ body and shooting static objects and XF is not critical, which back you suggest for products.

I never had P3 nor I don't know how to use them, it's interesting. I'm just supposing I have to pair P3/P2 with some back (Phase one/Hasselblad back) and go for old Sinar or Nikon lenses with rectangular shape for mounting, am I right? Seems like a very interesting system but cumbersome. Can I buy Hasselblad lenses or Schneider Krueznach LS lenses for P3? Have to watch some movies on Youtube on how to use this. And then, yes, I understand it can give some benefits for using tilt/shift/swings that I won't have with regular cameras, but how often it's really used in product photography?

 

[Allthink_]

Second daz7's suggestion, a view camera is definitely a better platform for products, in addition to p3, monolith is another great workhorse.

Portrait wise, if you solely intend to shoot in studio, then I think you may get away with older DF+ body, since you can manual focus, pre focus or shoot enough depth of field. If you do wish to have the ability to work on location, then XF would be a better option, as AF would be more in line with modern cameras.

Combining optical viewfinder and tethering, I'd imagine you can fine tune the composition and focus frame by frame until you are happy, that's where view camera comes in handy, allowing you to adjust various movements independently.

Do you use P3 or some other technical camera? if yes, what combination of body/camera/lenses?
I understand it can give some benefits for using tilt/shift/swings that I won't have with regular cameras, but how often it's really used in product photography?

 

[Allthink_]

For products / studio use, you are not restricted to light bodies or good LCD preview quality - you can use any camera size you like and the backs with poor live view or no LCD screen, too as you will shoot tethered all the time.
For portraits you will need something portable with good autofocus and reliable live view to make your decisions quicker.
Hence, probably you should get two cameras - one for portraits and one for products.
I shoot products and I could not be happier than I am with my Sinar P3 (or P2 as there are very little differences function-wise) and the multishot Sinarback Exact - that combo gives you unlimited creative possiblities in respect of tilt, swing or shift and the resolution you need.
I would not swap that 10 years old back and camera for anything else if shooting products. I wish Sinar were still in business - you can call me their fanboy.
I have tried a couple of times to shoot portraits with it, too (in a single shot mode, obviously) but it was not an easy and nice thing, so after a couple of times I have switched to Phase One/Mamiya rental bodies (AFd, DF and XF) and it was a bit better, but I would be much happier with the phase back for that, too.
Anyway, bear in mind that I shoot portraits too rarely to advise, really.

What lenses you use with P3?
I understand it can give some benefits for using tilt/shift/swings that I won't have with regular cameras, but how often it's really used in product photography?
and then, how to combine with them modern backs from Phase One/Hasselblad?
What lenses I can use with them?
I assume I need to use some shutter cable for that? Seems like cumbersome system to use.

 

[Allthink_]

From these options I posted initially, are some of them good for products photography as opposed to my 45mp full frame camera?

 

[anyone]

I may suggest the Linhof 679cs for product shots indoors. The 60mp back is nice if you do not need long exposures or live view. My personal opinion shooting both the GFX100s and the P65+: If you want a modern shooting experience with live view, the camera performing well in almost all situations, go for Fuji. If you are okay with a slow workflow and limitations (focusing without live view, mainly base Iso), then the 60mp CCD will reward you with nice colors and subtle sharpness transitions.

 

[RobbieAB]

I am curious as to what would make you choose an IQ 50 with a DF+ over a Fuji 100, which strikes me as the better camera in almost every possible way.

I can at least see reasons why an IQ60 with an XF would be a better choice (larger sensor, different sensor tech, etc).

 

[Allthink_]

I may suggest the Linhof 679cs for product shots indoors. The 60mp back is nice if you do not need long exposures or live view. My personal opinion shooting both the GFX100s and the P65+: If you want a modern shooting experience with live view, the camera performing well in almost all situations, go for Fuji. If you are okay with a slow workflow and limitations (focusing without live view, mainly base Iso), then the 60mp CCD will reward you with nice colors and subtle sharpness transitions.

Thank you
So you prefer IQ60 and not IQ50, right?
What back and lenses you suggest for Linhof 679cs ?
In case I will use tethering to focus on subject, will IQ 60 be a better option than my 45mp full frame?
Do you think P65(not plus) is still a good sensor for products? I can match it with my old Mamiya 645AFD.
On other side, IQ60 is almost same price as used fuji 100s, but without all the tilt/shift/swing in case you think it's important. What's your opinion?

 

[Allthink_]

I am curious as to what would make you choose an IQ 50 with a DF+ over a Fuji 100, which strikes me as the better camera in almost every possible way.

I can at least see reasons why an IQ60 with an XF would be a better choice (larger sensor, different sensor tech, etc).

Hi
I'm just asking experts opinions on that matter, as I'm considering moving to MF body from my 45mp full frame.
So you don't suggest IQ50 , then how you thing IQ60 or fuji 100 will be better for products, as seem like it's same cost on used market. Do you have experience with P65? (I have old mamiya 645 afd and 5 full frame bodies).
So it's IQ60 or Fuji 100?
Will be glad for your opinion.

 

[guphotography]

Thank you very much, interesting things
Why I can't use IQ 60 outside with available light?
Let's say for portraits I have my full frames. If for product shots, which options you suggest? Lens and back combinations.
I also shoot architecture/interior design but for that I have all tils shifts and full frames cameras.
Never had fuji 50/100, neither IQ camera or Hasselblad one.

Of course you can shoot IQ60 outdoorrs, I do all the time but you are more limited to the usable ISO therefore limited to what light condition you can work under when outdoors and how comfortable you are with high iso and sensor+.

I have no problem with iso 1600+ in sensor plus mode if I were to photograph my children playing, I would use light if I were to work for a client, that's the only difference.

Each genre calls for specialist set up, depending how far down the road you are willing to go, my bread and butter is architectural work, followed by portraits, so I can't comment that much on still life set up, there are quite a few experts on the forum who can help with that.

There are two approaches to architecture nowadays, with movements in the lens, tilt/shift; or up a notch, technical camera, where movements are in the body, each has its own merits. There are also certain view cameras that would allow you to work both in studio for still life work, and on location for architecture/interiors.

Once you decide on the back, the rest can fall into places relatively quickly.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Sinar P3 is the ultimate Macro camera and in my understanding the only in-production fully yaw-free bellows camera system which on top is geared in all dimensions.

Essentially the Rolls-Royce of Macro.

You can buy them new for 8k, seviced ex factory for 5k or used on eBay for 2-3k with some residual risk that it might need a factory tour.

I've been looking at it recently as full yaw-free movements is kind of amazing.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The CPL mount is also genius. You can access all Copal elements with incredible ease.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

They still produce all the Sinar stuff. A new CPL mount is 1100 EUR+ incl. mounting, the parts alone c.700 ex VAT (if you have the screwdriver!).

Sinar was ahead of its time engineering-wise, but that was also their demise. Too much focus on the technical possibilities, I suppose.

 

[daz7]

yeah, also their decision to close the M (modular) system (which was pure genius) for their backs only was not a good idea. Sinar M is absolutely unique, it is like converting your view camera to XF by simply adding a focusing module and battery.
If they produced it as an open standard with adapters for hassie and phase that would be probably the best system ever made.

 

[Alkibiades]

Thank you very much, interesting things
Why I can't use IQ 60 outside with available light?
Let's say for portraits I have my full frames. If for product shots, which options you suggest? Lens and back combinations.
I also shoot architecture/interior design but for that I have all tils shifts and full frames cameras.
Never had fuji 50/100, neither IQ camera or Hasselblad one.

if you use CCD back and you want the best performance so you must use the back on the lowest iso, this mean 50 or 25 asa, depends on what back. The phase one body needs 1/125 speed to be sharp for portraits, so there are not much situation outside where you will get the perfect strong light for this. mostly you will want to use the special light of the surrounding, at different day times.So it is problematic with CCD kamera. With a Csmos back the image quality is still at 1600 iso impressive, sometimes even 3200 are really good. This is a huge difference. If you use flash this is a different story. You can use a CCD back with high iso but you must know how the quality will be, and this is simply not comparable. Also the lack of modern live view could be a big point. For product it is a very big advantage to see the sharpness exactly, espessially when you use tilt/swift. Phase one live view on Csmos back are very good when not the beston the market, I never see anything better.
Aslo the Schneider T/S lens for phase one is very good and can give you similar feeling as a work on a technical camera: Apo Digitar 120 mm aspheric. now you get this lens very cheap on ebay, in Copal mount this lens is extramly rare and expensive.
Sinar P3 was the king in big studios, indeed this camera will give you max movements, as no other camera system. Linhof m679 is very nice also, even smaller, but limited in movements and lenses- no really long lenses can be used. Arca M-line is great also, but expesive, also you need to update the standart to tilf-swift, what was very expensive ( or you get one with the orbix update).
But such camera like P3 make sence when you really concentrated on high end product photography.
If you make it only sometimes so Fuji with canon latest T/S lenses: 50, 90, 135 mm will be maybe the better option.
I find Phase one files better than Fuji ( not only me) but this is not for everybody. You must find out if you like fuji color.

 

[Allthink_]

Of course you can shoot IQ60 outdoorrs, I do all the time but you are more limited to the usable ISO therefore limited to what light condition you can work under when outdoors and how comfortable you are with high iso and sensor+.

I have no problem with iso 1600+ in sensor plus mode if I were to photograph my children playing, I would use light if I were to work for a client, that's the only difference.

Each genre calls for specialist set up, depending how far down the road you are willing to go, my bread and butter is architectural work, followed by portraits, so I can't comment that much on still life set up, there are quite a few experts on the forum who can help with that.

There are two approaches to architecture nowadays, with movements in the lens, tilt/shift; or up a notch, technical camera, where movements are in the body, each has its own merits. There are also certain view cameras that would allow you to work both in studio for still life work, and on location for architecture/interiors.

Once you decide on the back, the rest can fall into places relatively quickly.

Can you mention some models of view cameras that would allow to work both in studio for still life work, and on location for architecture/interiors ? Which brand of lenses and back they require? Let's say that most if for products.

 

[Allthink_]

you can use a Sinar P3 with any back you want with any copal/compur/prontor lens - if you use the multishot backs from Sinar then you can still use copal lenses (in a single shot mode) but there is no better match than sinar's own CMV lenses (magnetic shutter)
For products I use 90% of time the 120mm Rodenstock's macro lens.
Btw, the Phase one's 60mp sensor is the same sensor as used in the Sinar 86H (great back, too) and in the Exact back but Sinar tweaked them to add a multishot option and up to 192mp from the latter.
Considering that you would do portrait shots in a controlled lighting setup, I'd say phase one's 60mp CCD back would be a nice pick, teamed with XF for portraits and P3 for products.

About tilt/shifts in product shots - well, I use them extensively - never counted it, but my guess would be that I use it for more than 75% of the shots as I hate focus stacking, so if something can be done in one or two shots, I prefer it from making 20 shots.
Also, the ability to draw a transition area from focus to out of focus exactly where you want is something priceless.
I cannot imagine taking product shots with no tilt/swings. That would be a serious limitation.

And finally, about the old systmes being cumbersome - that's true - you need a couple of cables, the system is slow, feels dated, etc. But once set up, you do not actually care about one more cable hanging there, you do not mind spending 3 more minutes fiddling with the camera, or 5 more minutes shooting the still life scene.
The other view cameras (eg Linhof mentioned earlier, Arca M or Cambo) are not bad, either and you can use all of them with any back you want, including the newest backs if you decide to upgrade.

If you are accustomed to shooting with small cameras then it will require some time and learning to start using a view camera and medium format backs - in that case Fuji 100mp instead of the separate back may not be a bad option - you will have something familiar to start with and get the benefits of larger sensor. Cameras are just tools, just like different brushes or canvases for painters really and which one you choose is down to personal preference.
Some painters prefer watercolors, some oils, some will argue that painting on a paper is cat's pyjamas. You have to try and see what works for you.

So I can buy IQ60 or P65 or any other back and later buy P3/P2 (there are 4*5 but many other versions, which one?) for products in order to have all the movements? Can you write example of what I need besides P3, which cables (for lens/for body) and what brand of lenses? You mentioned SInar lenses, I see them selling used, is it only Sinar brand or other brands? Are there any electronic contacts between lens, camera, body in case of P3? Excuse me for so much questions, i just never seen it in action how it all works and attaches together. My maximum is Mamiya 645AFD, but that's simple principle.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Get CPL lenses as they are without electronics and therefore useable on other systems too should you one time migrate away from P3.