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Phase one body and back suggestion for products/portraits

A

Allthink_

Member
Interesting to see some video that shows how all this P3 system with DB and lens and cable assembles together.
Which brand lenses are good to work with P3, CMV? are they still good for digital?

I'm watching some photographers who are teaching product photography for last 10 years, they never show use of any technical camera, except dslr, maybe modern Hasselblad/Phase one/Fuji, where it's very simple setup (body/lens/camera), why is that that they don't use them at all and get all the needed shots with MF/regular FF. Sometimes they do focus stacking, but on very few occasions, and if the plains of product go different directions (like glasses o 45 degrees to the front-different planes), then I assume P3 will not help either to get all if focus in one shot.
 
A

Allthink_

Member
So I can buy one of those Linhof 679cs , Arca M or Cambo and buy any back and lens for them or each required different lenses and backs?
 
R

RobbieAB

Member
Allthink_ said:
Hi
I'm just asking experts opinions on that matter, as I'm considering moving to MF body from my 45mp full frame.
So you don't suggest IQ50 , then how you thing IQ60 or fuji 100 will be better for products, as seem like it's same cost on used market. Do you have experience with P65? (I have old mamiya 645 afd and 5 full frame bodies).
So it's IQ60 or Fuji 100?
Will be glad for your opinion.
Click to expand...
What are you hoping to gain from moving to medium format?

While I have never used it, on paper a P65 is an interesting proposition, especially if you already have an old body and optics you are happy using with MF film, as it would offer a minimal cost option to try full frame MF digital.

My opinion is that on every objective technical metric, the Fuji 100s is going to blow any 10 year old Phase system out of the water. About the only thing I can see that the Phase would have is leaf shutters. That said, enjoyment of use is important, if subjective.

You say you already have 45MPixel FF cameras: what limitations are you encountering there to drive the MF experiment?

To be clear, I have no problem with a justification of “because I feel like it and can afford it”, that is how I justify my MF kit! It does make it hard to provide objective advice though, because it is ultimately a very subjective justification.

The other thing I would note is, if based in the EU, make sure your charging and power situations are fully in place and not reliant on availability of chargers or cables beyond next year: we don’t yet know how the USB-C direc will play out in practice. In theory it shouldn’t cause issues, but that relies on everyone being sensible.
 
P

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
1702418722645.png
The best copal lensboard style mount ever developed. They are still made.

All controls are easily accessible via levers and it makes copal lenses a joy to use.

You essentially get two CPL lenses and a P3 and done.

CPL mounting costs 1100+ EUR, naked board around 700 EUR ex Vat, ie 800ish. You need to then with a screwdriver mount all little rings and screws, only recommended for experienced users.

Once you mounted a lens it is just awesome to use in the studio. It is the rolls-royce way of controlling a copal lens on a bellows camera.

At the top left you have a large aperture lever and at the bottom a aperture open / close lever. There's also a speed lever.

Very convenient and fast and a godsend in the studio. You just need a 120 or 90mm and you are good for macro on the P3.

Up until 90mm you need a recessed board variant if I am correct. The backside of the lens is fully protected.
 
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B

Ben730

Active member
Allthink_ said:
Thank you Ben
I wish I could go for XT with 150 back and all Alpa lens lineup. Nothing else needed then... :)

I do have all tilt shifts for my architecture with Canon and Nikon, hence just thinking to add the DMF for my system. I do have an old Mamiya 645 but it doesn' take IQ, only up to P65 backs.

So you also think live view is problematic for products with IQ 60? checking critical focus etc...

(C1 support, not support but they don't even let small updates even in the first year. I bought in last december, i got till 16.2 v, and in november this year there was 16.3 update, and they refused to get it, even it's minor update and also 11 month passed, so I'm very angry on them. I bought the full version perpetual)
Currently I don't have Fuji nor Phase one or Hasselblad MF system, all of them are in consideration.
From one side, "cheap" fuji 100s with lenses is a good option, but cropped sensor, from another side, IQ60 with bigger sensor but low DR and bad ISO range, IQ50 good ISO but cropped sensor as well as old DF+ back. So pretty hard to choose, unless money is not object.
Click to expand...
I was talking about an IQ1 50 (50 MP, 44 x 33) not an IQ4 150. An IQ1 50 is still a very strong tool.
Checking focus, fine-tuning the light etc. is a big advantage with CMOS sensors.
If you want everything in focus, the cropped sensor is easier to handle and working in the UI is noticeably faster than with 53.4 x 40 sensors.

Concerning C1 I'm very happy. Software is almost more important than the camera.
If you compare, it's the cheapest part in photography, I don't bother with those costs.

For product shots I changed in 2006 from Sinar to Cambo Ultima and Cambo WRS + P1
because I didn't like the route of the Sinar digital backs, lens shutters and of course the pricing.

Unfortunately, light and lighting is not very present in this forum. But I would definitely focus on this.
This is where the wheat is separated from the chaff.
The digital back and its size is actually a minor matter.

Regards,
Ben
 
buildbot

buildbot

Well-known member
Ben730 said:
I was talking about an IQ1 50 (50 MP, 44 x 33) not an IQ4 150. An IQ1 50 is still a very strong tool.
Checking focus, fine-tuning the light etc. is a big advantage with CMOS sensors.
If you want everything in focus, the cropped sensor is easier to handle and working in the UI is noticeably faster than with 53.4 x 40 sensors.
Click to expand...
Why not a CFV 50c II? If you are set on the cmos crop sensor, it’s a much newer and more usable tool than an IQ150 back. The only downside would be getting the images into C1. IQ 50 series digital backs still cost more than a gfx 50s which uses the exact same sensor and comes with an evf and shutter too…
 
A

Allthink_

Member
Paul Spinnler said:
View attachment 208817
The best copal lensboard style mount ever developed. They are still made.

All controls are easily accessible via levers and it makes copal lenses a joy to use.

You essentially get two CPL lenses and a P3 and done.

CPL mounting costs 1100+ EUR, naked board around 700 EUR ex Vat, ie 800ish. You need to then with a screwdriver mount all little rings and screws, only recommended for experienced users.

Once you mounted a lens it is just awesome to use in the studio. It is the rolls-royce way of controlling a copal lens on a bellows camera.

At the top left you have a large aperture lever and at the bottom a aperture open / close lever. There's also a speed lever.

Very convenient and fast and a godsend in the studio. You just need a 120 or 90mm and you are good for macro on the P3.

Up until 90mm you need a recessed board variant if I am correct. The backside of the lens is fully protected.
Click to expand...
Thanks Paul
And how the back know that you want to shoot and lens shoots, is there some communication?
I wish there was a video explaining how to assemble all this together.
Also some exampled of the system and parts list on ebay that needed for that system.
 
A

Allthink_

Member
daz7 said:
you can shoot 60mm and 72mm on a standard plate with a P3 if you use a bag bellows, however it depends on the digiback mount used and depending if you use a camera frames only or a sliding adapter - when mounted on a frame directly, the range of lenses increases, when used with a sliding adapter you need to add about 20-25mm. Also, a lot depends on the shutter used - with copal mounted in the front of the frame, the recessed board is a good idea in most cases and I think that most, if not all Sinar CPL lenses come on recessed boards. Their e-shutter lenses and CMV lenses are mounted a little to the back and flush or almost flush with the lens plate.

With standard bellows the minimum focal lenght you can use is around 90mm (at least for still life scenes, when the bellow draws well exceeds 100mm due to a scale of the subject). I am not sure if you would be able to use a 90mm lens at infinity with standard bellows on a flat plate - most probably not - you may be missing a couple of milimeters even without any movements at all.
For all wides below 55mm you will definitely need recessed boards, unless you only need limited swings and tilts, in which case even a 45mm is doable.
If you use both recessed boards and bag bellows, then you can get down to 28mm at a stretch, with 35mm being quite acceptable.

My most used focal lengths on a P3 are 120 macro, 180 macro and 210mm, with 90, 100 and 72mm used sparingly. All (apart of the 180 macro which is prontor) in CMV mounts - never had an urge to to use e-shutters as I do not need short shutter speeds - I regulate the speed with lights and shoot almost always at 1/8s out of habit.
For personal work I use quite a lot of analog lenses, eg 120 SS HM, 180SS HM, etc as I love the super symmars aestethics and how they draw transitions from focus to blur. I have even built a motorised DIY adapter ona 4x5 frame to move the back in up to 12 positions in the rear plate plane and have a 3x4 inch area covered - that cures my nostalgia for a large format film, lol.
Technically, if I use it with my Exact multishot pumping 192mp from each of 12 position shots I could squeeze about 1.5 gigapixel out of that system but I have not figured yet the scenario for which that 72-shot monster would be needed.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for detailed answer
I understood some things, but not all. As i see thare are many options. I wish there was a video how to assemble all these into a working system and what parts/lens/boards/cables needed that can be bought on ebay.
It's pretty not trivial. Do you still get tethered live view with this and is it upside down?
 
A

Allthink_

Member
Ben730 said:
I was talking about an IQ1 50 (50 MP, 44 x 33) not an IQ4 150. An IQ1 50 is still a very strong tool.
Checking focus, fine-tuning the light etc. is a big advantage with CMOS sensors.
If you want everything in focus, the cropped sensor is easier to handle and working in the UI is noticeably faster than with 53.4 x 40 sensors.

Concerning C1 I'm very happy. Software is almost more important than the camera.
If you compare, it's the cheapest part in photography, I don't bother with those costs.

For product shots I changed in 2006 from Sinar to Cambo Ultima and Cambo WRS + P1
because I didn't like the route of the Sinar digital backs, lens shutters and of course the pricing.

Unfortunately, light and lighting is not very present in this forum. But I would definitely focus on this.
This is where the wheat is separated from the chaff.
The digital back and its size is actually a minor matter.

Regards,
Ben
Click to expand...
Ok, so you still suggest old IQ50 over (or as addition) to my current 45mp full frame over slow IQ60? The tethering live view will be easy and easier to work overall? Did I get you right?
Some people said me that fuji 50 is cheaper and better, but it's not modular, have low shutter speads and no leaf shutters unless used with specific adapter.
 
A

Alkibiades

Well-known member
Allthink_ said:
Thanks Paul
And how the back know that you want to shoot and lens shoots, is there some communication?
I wish there was a video explaining how to assemble all this together.
Also some exampled of the system and parts list on ebay that needed for that system.
Click to expand...
You need a simple x-cable, you fire the shutter and the x-cable makes the Shot, then you hear a short Signal with that the back confirm that the shot has be done.
 
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A

Allthink_

Member
Alkibiades said:
You need a simple x-cable, you fire the shutter and the x-cable makes the Shot, then you hear a short Signal with that the back confirm that the shot has be done.
Click to expand...
In case you have that
I want to see 2 images compared, if you have them to show and attach here.

1.

Image shot on 35mm full frame cameras and SAME image on MF of portrait, as many people claim there is a certain look for portraits. Please mention which sensor size/camera this portrait was shot with.

(I'm not talking about print yet, just the overall IQ, colors and look- hence this comparison is viable) . And if you have full res, then it's even better.

2.
Full res of same product shot, shot with full frame and DMF. Please mention the sensor suze/camera.

That will help me to decide if going to DMF is a good choice. You can assume that in near future I will print on billboards.
 
buildbot

buildbot

Well-known member
Allthink_ said:
In case you have that
I want to see 2 images compared, if you have them to show and attach here please.

1.

Image shot on 35mm full frame cameras and SAME image on MF of portrait, as many people claim there is a certain look for portraits. Please mention which sensor size/camera this portrait was shot with.

(I'm not talking about print yet, just the overall IQ, colors and look- hence this comparison is viable) . And if you have full res, then it's even better.

2.
Full res of same product shot, shot with full frame and DMF. Please mention the sensor suze/camera.

That will help me to decide if going to DMF is a good choice. You can assume that in near future I will print on billboards.
Click to expand...
Sure, I can do that test for you, 10K USD for materials + time sound fair? Or budget, 3K and I rent everything as a budget option.

:cautious:
 
D

daz7

Active member
$10K? that's el-cheapo. I can do a deLuxe version, delivered in a custom made box for just $16K. Alternatively, I will accept a brand new Rodie 138mm :)
 
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