Phase One XT 150mm HO-S SB Lens

[Ben730]

I have just seen the announcement of a new XT lens. I would be interested to know who makes the glass for it.
I'm sure the lens will be top quality. The front element seems to be quite large. At first glance, I'm missing a blue ring...

The New Phase One XT 150mm HO-S SB Lens - Capture Integration

Precision Detail. Distant Focus. The first Phase One XT Lens. Telephoto design for precision Landscape Photography needs. The Lens emphasizes the meticulous resolution necessary for the IQ4 150MP and beyond. The Short Barrel (SB) design requires the addition of the “XT Short Barrel Adapter” to...

www.captureintegration.com

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I had mentioned this release in the 2024 MF isn't dead thread; this is most likely produced in the same factory which produces the BR glass in Japan (Mamiya or Japanese suppliers) and they may have had input from SK on the optical formulation. They even produced an SK72 MK II with floating lens element which is basically an SK lens, but it is not branded as such and produced under licensing of the design by P1 for their CH division.

There are few notable aspects here:

1) The XT extender COULD explain why the 90 HR tilt hasn't yet been released; it would make sense for them to release a 90 HR with tilt and in SB with this extender
2) Definitely XT XL coming if they even build a SB extender ... that's a rather significant show of commitment to the photography segment!
3) This looks like the FIRST XT SB lens – as they speak in general about short barrel lenses ...
4) IQ5-200 IMHO also highly likely as why would you go and develop all of this if no IQ5 was on the horizon
5) Rodenstock has again raised lens pricing to offset input price inflation, I hear, which basically squeezes all intermediaries as you cannot pass on everything to customers in this environment; to make a profit you essentially need to vertically integrate as shown here
6) In a way the 150 is the answer to the 138 which is not payable and also you don't have electronic connectivity with it due to the way it is built which makes it impossible to have an electronic internal connection from the shutter to the connectors in the back;
7) The 138 is still an uber lens compared to the 150 as it seems the 150 stresses XT interconnectivity while the 138 has still a more extreme IC – I can shift 35mm left right on my Pano with it which is significantly more than 90mm IC; this said, a 150 with 90mm IC is still very cool, especially if they extend the connectors to make it fully integrated and compact
8) Being able to leverage synergies from their geospatial and CH segments demonstrates that P1 is a lot more resilient than some may think if one only looks at pace of innovation – it gives them the ability to develop something which can be leveraged across many business units – which is confidence inspiring at this stage

Besides the cool lens, this bodes very well for P1, the future of the platform, an XT XL, a next gen kick-ass IQ5 and potentially a significantly revised 90 HR tilt with SB.

Besides the 90, 150, I am not sure which other "SB" lens could be on the horizon, as the 32, 40, 50, 70 already exist now as tilt variants.

The 70 is an edge case, but I suppose you should be able to exploit the 90-100 IC of it even in the new tilt variant with an XT XL.

I guess good time to hold onto Phase Gear! The moment an IQ5 drops the IQ4 cash credit will most likely be the only way the IQ5 becomes semi affordable.

It seems they went back to the drawing board and are slowly fixing all design shortcomings which initially existed with Gen I XT system design: namely lack of tilt, lack of SB lenses, lack of large shift cam ... after five years ...

Does not make sense to sell the IQ4 now! Cool stuff is coming!

 

[jonas1212hk]

Don't know if this XT version short barrel adapter has same thickness as the Cambo SB lens rear spacer. If yes, we can buy SB version 138HR as the ultimate mid-range lens option and wait for XT XL for larger shift capability.

 

[buildbot]

The short barrel spacer being designed like a back throws me for a loop:

 

[Paul Spinnler]

They also write for 150 and beyond in terms of resolution.

Looks like the IQ5 is a given and selling P1 gear before an imminent huge tech upgrade cycle doesn't make sense IMHO.

They wouldn't engineer an electrical extender if they wouldn't have specific plans to further develop the IQ and XT platforms. In fact, in anything, this is a breakthrough of sorts for them to bring out the first truly native lens for their platform with their own "S nomenclature", meaning there could be other S or xtended S lenses down the line.

Who would've thought that P1 flexes its muscles and brings out native photography focused XT lenses in spite of a fully developed Rodie line of glass.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The short barrel spacer being designed like a back throws me for a loop:

View attachment 210893

A bit weird, but then again – this is a smart adapter costing more than 1k to allow for connectivity. Besides the 90 HR and maybe one day a longer tele, not sure what else this is useful for except if P1 releases a whole range of lenses ...

 

[f8orbust]

Reads to me like this is simply a lens developed for geospatial applications (hi-res mapping, aerial photogrammetry etc.) which they're easily able to promote as a 'landscape' lens at the same time, and so maybe nail a few sales in that market as a bonus (but only if you own an XT of course).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

But it goes to show that there's a likely scenario in which the goespatial business becomes the primary feeder of the new photo products ... which is still better than a P1 with no other income streams other than photo ...

Am I the only one who finds the sight of a lens without ANY marking a bit weird?

I've never seen a lens like that – a bit special to say the least.

 

[buildbot]

A bit weird, but then again – this is a smart adapter costing more than 1k to allow for connectivity. Besides the 90 HR and maybe one day a longer tele, not sure what else this is useful for except if P1 releases a whole range of lenses ...

I wonder if it would work as a macro tube for the XF with an IQ3 back, lol. Is it passthrough, which would work, or literally “smart” as you say with a microcontroller (which would allow exif and checking if your setup is correct!)

Am I the only one who finds the sight of a lens without ANY marking a bit weird?

I've never seen a lens like that – a bit special to say the least.

It’s a bit odd looking too! It actually reminds me of an aerial lens, like a hycon:


I’m pretty excited for the 150, if I ever do get an IQ4 back then that would 100% be on my list and would be perfect for the style of IR landscapes I take.

 

[4x5Australian]

This is an interesting development on a number of fronts.

My initial reactions are that:

(a) Phase One has recognized that many nature photographers using the XT camera want access to longer focal lengths.

(b) citing the optical design as a telephoto confirms that a well-made telephoto design can provide high resolution imaging and opens the pathway to reducing the physical length of longer lenses for the XT, in keeping with the XT's compact gestalt. Recently I was surprised at how good the imaging is on my IQ4 from my SK Apo-Tele-Xenar Compact 5.6/400mm, made in the early 2000s.

(c) Phase One is seeking to use unused manufacturing capacity at its (formerly Mamiya) lens plant and uncouple itself from its current dependance for XT lenses on Rodenstock.

The technical impediment to providing longer lenses for the XT has been that the XT cannot accept the Cambo WRS rear spacers (such as the 48mm rear spacer WRS-1048 used to mount the SB mounted RDK SW 90mm lens).

In response, Cambo introduced the WRS-1049 front spacer, which is very high quality and works well except that it slightly vignettes the image on large shifts. At least that's what I found when I mounted and briefly tested two other 90mm lenses (the SK Super-Angulon 90mm 6.8 and the RDK Grandagon-N 90mm 6.8) using the WRS-1049 on my WRS 1200. To avoid vignetting, the extension required by the lens must be on the rear.

We're not being told the depth of the XT Short Barrel Adapter, but the lack of a depth in the name suggests that this might be intended as the standard rear spacer for a range of longer lenses using newly developed telephoto designs.

Rod

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the biggest takeaway from this announcement is that P1 released its first self-branded XT lens for its photography product line. That's a big development vis-a-vis Rodenstock.

Rodenstock is also the supplier for P1's aerial products and, what I heard from industry sources, has been pushing multiple price increases over the last years, including already another one this year which they can do because they are a monopolist atm.

P1 uses Rodie glass in all of their rigs, so if Rodenstock raises prices they have nowhere to go ... except if they do their own stuff out of Japan now with potentially help from SK as in the case of the 72 MK II floating lens element repro lens that is also without third party brand designation.

This lens costs 12k. That's not cheap. If they use it in aerial rigs and cross-sell some to XT users ... that's surely then a profitable product.

 

[4x5Australian]

Of course, leaving aside longer focal lengths involving the Short Barrel Adapter, this introduction might signal the start of an entire Phase One lens line for the XT (and Cambo WRS) that includes revisions to the semi-symmetrical, low-distortion 10-element Mamiya N 4.5/43mm and 4.5/50mm lenses made (in the same manufacturing plant?) for the Mamiya 7/7II 6x7 format film cameras or, similarly, revisions to the SK Super-Digitar 5.6/28XL and SK Apo-Digitar 5.6/35XL and 5.6/43XL lenses via its involvement with Schneider.

Hope springs eternal.

Rod

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Oh ... that's an interesting train of thought ... indeed!

 

[Ben730]

As I mentioned at the beginning, a blue ring should be incorporated, I mean that seriously.

The front element is surprisingly large for a lens with an aperture of 5.6. It is not at all reminiscent of a Schneider Kreuznach design that I am familiar with.
Furthermore, I am once again struggling to understand the price. $13,000 (incl. spacer) for a 150 is not exactly cheap.
For that price, it should do wonders, especially since the old 150s on the market are already performing well.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

P1 has long stopped to cater to the standard market … nothing “makes sense” compared to the broader market.

If you want the best quality and cutting edge stuff they have a great product and then it’s for everyone else to decide whether they are in or out.

I think many people who buy the XC for example just don’t care so much about the price to performance aspect - they buy it because they like the tech, the form factor, want the “best” and are fine with paying the price.

P1 is great stuff, but pricing is quite distinct from the rest of the photo market. It always was kind of, but nowadays they are even more unapologetic about it.

I just hope they adhere to the trade in policy they had forever when the new IQ5 comes.

 

[4x5Australian]

I wonder whether this new Phase One 150mm f/5.6 telephoto lens is an evolution of the renowned Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 lens for the Mamiya 7 system, also a telephoto design.

Here is the cross-section of the Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 lens, from the Mamiya 7II brochure:


Mamiya's description of the lens stated:
The Mamiya 150mm f/4.5 is a moderate telephoto, using a unique design of six elements in five groups, along with low and ultra-low dispersion glass to create apochromatic performance matched to the entire group of Mamiya 7 lenses. Applications include portraiture, fashion, landscape and aerial photography.

What stands out to me in that cross-section is the use of four elements in the front group, rather than the traditional three, for a focal length of only 150mm. Particularly as the maximum aperture is a modest f/4.5 rather than, say, f/2.8. At that time, four elements up front were usually only employed in telephoto lenses of 300mm and longer, not 150mm. That group of four will contain perhaps two elements made from the low and ultra-low dispersion glass noted by Mamiya in its description.

At the time, I recall that someone who tested the Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 called it the sharpest lens in all of medium format.

The diagonal of the 56x70mm film frame is 89.6mm, so the image circle of this lens would satisfy the 90mm specified in the Phase One announcement.

Given that Mamiya was bought by Phase One, it's at least possible that Phase One has decided to revisit and rework one of the earlier Mamiya 7 lens designs. Despite the reduced maximum aperture, the number of elements may well be increased to boost the resolution further. It will be interesting to see if the optical cross-section of the new lens shows any resemblance to the earlier Mamiya lens.

Rod

 

[diggles]

We're not being told the depth of the XT Short Barrel Adapter, but the lack of a depth in the name suggests that this might be intended as the standard rear spacer for a range of longer lenses using newly developed telephoto designs.

The rear spacer for this new lens does make me believe that Phase is planning on developing more lenses as well. Very interesting. Hopefully, this new rear spacer is 48mm like the standard Cambo rear spacer and new lens designs will be compatible with the WRS system.

When I first saw the announcement I thought that an XT ii with larger movements is on the way. The 90mm image circle is curious though. Unless this number is very conservative, it is small for a long lens. 12mm of XY shift goes past the edge of a 90mm image circle.

How does the X Shutter work? Can you use it with any back in ES mode? Or does the shutter remain closed unless connected to the IQ4 back?

 

[Ray Harrison]

The rear spacer for this new lens does make me believe that Phase is planning on developing more lenses as well. Very interesting. Hopefully, this new rear spacer is 48mm like the standard Cambo rear spacer and new lens designs will be compatible with the WRS system.

When I first saw the announcement I thought that an XT ii with larger movements is on the way. The 90mm image circle is curious though. Unless this number is very conservative, it is small for a long lens. 12mm of XY shift goes past the edge of a 90mm image circle.

How does the X Shutter work? Can you use it with any back in ES mode? Or does the shutter remain closed unless connected to the IQ4 back?

Thankfully, at least currently, the X-shutter remains open at the last aperture used on the IQ4 and I can then use the lens on my IQ3A in ES mode.

 

[Ben730]

Thankfully, at least currently, the X-shutter remains open at the last aperture used on the IQ4 and I can then use the lens on my IQ3A in ES mode.

That's perfect, I used to have to take a Nikon with me to control the aperture of some Nikkor lenses with my IQ3100.
Now I'm also buying an IQ4, so I can adjust all X-Shutter apertures in the future and use them with my Q3100....LOL

 

[buildbot]

I wonder whether this new Phase One 150mm f/5.6 telephoto lens is an evolution of the renowned 1995 Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 lens for the Mamiya 7 system, also a telephoto design.

Here is the cross-section of the Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 lens, adapted from the Mamiya 7II instruction booklet:

View attachment 210915
Mamiya's description of the lens stated:
The Mamiya 150mm f/4.5 is a moderate telephoto, using a unique design of six elements in five groups, along with low and ultra-low dispersion glass to create apochromatic performance matched to the entire group of Mamiya 7 lenses. Applications include portraiture, fashion, landscape and aerial photography.

What stands out to me in that cross-section is the use of four elements in the front group, rather than the traditional three, given that the focal length is a relatively short 150mm. Particularly as the maximum aperture is a modest f/4.5 rather than, say, f/2.8. At that time, four elements up front were usually employed in telephoto lenses of 300mm and longer, not 150mm. That group of four will contain perhaps two elements made from the low and ultra-low dispersion glass noted by Mamiya in its description.

At the time, I recall that someone who tested the Mamiya N 150mm f/4.5 called it the sharpest lens in all of medium format.

Given that Mamiya was bought by Phase One, it's at least possible and perhaps likely that Phase One has decided to revisit and rework one of the earlier Mamiya 7 lens designs. Despite the reduced maximum aperture, the number of elements may well be increased to boost the resolution further. It will be interesting to see if the optical cross-section of the new lens shows any is resemblance to the earlier lens.

Rod

My bet is the lens is based on/stolen from something in their aerial line directly - they currently have 3(?!) different 150mm aerial lenses -

Phase One RSM 150mm AF f/5.6
Schneider-Kreuznach RS 150mm MK II f/5.6
Phase One 150mm Peregrine
The first two have the same number of elements/groups, so likely both are an SK design?

For the last one, the only reference I can find is the support page from phase one listing serial number prefixes - unless I am missing some information, maybe this is the new 150mm lens on the aerial side of things and they have yet to formally announce it?