Sinaron HR 60mm f4 on Cambo Actus with GFX

[vvince]

Hello,

I am hesitating to buy a second hand Sinaron HR 60mm f4 mounted on Copal shutter (which as far as I understand should be the same lens as the Rodenstock Digaron-S 60mm f4) to put on my Cambo Actus with a Fuji GFX50R mounted.
Has anyone tried this combination, will I be able to focus at infinity and have some shift/raise movements?
The Cambo Lens compatibility chart says yes, but it can not be trusted.
According to this chart the Rodenstock Apo Sironar 55mm F4.5 should work for example, but in effect it does not : infinity focus is not achieved...
Which is why I am asking.

Otherwise, how is the lens qualitatively?
I would be using the lens for architecture, but as well for portraits. How are the unsharp areas in the background and foreground?
I already have the Actar 60mm f4, but this lens only starts to perform well at f8, and the unsharp areas can be ugly.
I hope the Sinaron could replace it and work better.
Thanks for any info relative to thi lens

Vvince

 

[rdeloe]

I could use it on my VX23D -- easily. I've yet to see a lens that works on my VX23D but won't work on a Cambo Actus. Image circle is 70mm -- not huge, but that should give you 9mm in landscape (and that's assuming there's nothing usable beyond 70mm, which isn't necessarily the case).

My Apo-Componon 60/4 has an official image circle of 60mm, but I get an excellent 8mm of shift. Image quality wide open is already excellent. I don't know about shift image quality wide open because I'd never use it that way.

 

[Alkibiades]

Hello,

I am hesitating to buy a second hand Sinaron HR 60mm f4 mounted on Copal shutter (which as far as I understand should be the same lens as the Rodenstock Digaron-S 60mm f4) to put on my Cambo Actus with a Fuji GFX50R mounted.
Has anyone tried this combination, will I be able to focus at infinity and have some shift/raise movements?
The Cambo Lens compatibility chart says yes, but it can not be trusted.
According to this chart the Rodenstock Apo Sironar 55mm F4.5 should work for example, but in effect it does not : infinity focus is not achieved...
Which is why I am asking.

Otherwise, how is the lens qualitatively?
I would be using the lens for architecture, but as well for portraits. How are the unsharp areas in the background and foreground?
I already have the Actar 60mm f4, but this lens only starts to perform well at f8, and the unsharp areas can be ugly.
I hope the Sinaron could replace it and work better.
Thanks for any info relative to thi lens

Vvince

As all Digaron-S lenses ( Sinaron HR/ Apo Sironar digital HR) is the 60 mm a high end lens with very good sharpness even wide open.
At 4 the lens is very sharp in the center, the corners are usable but at 5,6-8 the corners become perfect sharp.
For architecture shots 8-11 will be the standart aperture.
On the Sony 50 MP sensor build in Fuji, Phase one , Hasselblad movements till 15 mm are possible and the corner performance is outstanding- these are real HR lenses, the sharpness degredation till extrem edges is much lower than at classic Rodenstock/Schneider lensdesign.
60 and 100 HR are highly underrated lenses.
I use 100 HR a lot on my Linhof techno/ phase 250 combo and this combination is great.
For big sensors where I need more movements possibilities I use Digaron WS 90 mm on cambo Wrs that is the lens to beat and both combinations give me near identical results.
I think 60 HR will make you very happy, when you get it for nice price simply go for it.

 

[vvince]

Thanks a lot Rob and Alkibiades.
I was full of hope after reading your posts, unfortunately it will most probably not fit with the GFX. The seller has an Actus with a X1D-50C and digital back. No problem with back, as expected, but he has very limited movements with the X1D-50C since the rear barrel of the lens comes in contact with the rear element of the Actus when shifting.
Since the sensor of the GFX sits quite deeper inside the body than for the X1D-50C, it will most probably not be usable (meaning focus at infinity) even with no movement.
The old flange focal distance problem again...

Cheers
Vvince

 

[rdeloe]

That's interesting Vince. Something doesn't sound right.

I double-checked the figures I had in my spreadsheet against the Rodenstock information for the Digaron-S 60/4. The flange distance of the lens is 64.3mm. From flange to end of the rear barrel is 24mm. On my VX23D, the rear of the lens will be 4.1mm from my camera mounting board, which means there would be no mechanical restrictions on shifting. To give you a sense for the design of my camera, the GFX attaches to a custom mount ring that adds 7mm, and the board is 2.5mm thick.

Here's how the math works on my outfit:

64.3mm (lens flange distance)
- 24mm (flange to lens rear)
- 2.5mm (my lens board thickness)
- 7mm (my camera mount)
-26.7mm (GFX flange distance)
----------
4.1mm (air space between rear of lens and the inside face of my camera board when the lens is focused at infinity)

On your Actus, what's the distance in mm between the GFX mount and the closest part of the camera mount inside that the rear of the lens could contact? It would have to be 13.6mm for the rear of that lens to interfere with the Actus.

 

[vjbelle]

Rob.... the Actus GFX adapter has a depth of 9.8mm from the face of the GFX camera to the mount point of the bellows. There is a very small additional increase of metal from the bellows magnetic mount (is recessed on the front of the adapter) which may be about 1.5mm +/-. I have no way to measure this so am guesstimating. I don't have any info on the HR 60 otherwise I could be of more help. It's the flange to lens end that may be the limiting factor.

Victor B.

 

[vvince]

Thanks for checking the numbers Rob.
I do not have a tool for precisely measuring, but my estimate is about 11-12mm, which is Victor's estimate as well.
So according to the math, it should work...
But I do believe the owner (seller) of the lens when he says that it is the rear element of the lens contacting the camera mount which limits the movements, so I am not going to take a risk with this lens.
The lens is actually a Sinaron lens which has been remounted in a copal shutter. It could be that the dimension are different compared to that of an original Digaron? Also (although I do not think it plays a role) the aperture labels of the copal 0 shutter start at 5.6 and not 4 as it should, meaning that when the lens is fully open (f4) the shutter indicates 5.6, and so on.
An other difference might be that the camera mount for the X1D is thicker? Althouhg this would be strange...

Cheers
Vvince

 

[Alkibiades]

Thanks for checking the numbers Rob.
I do not have a tool for precisely measuring, but my estimate is about 11-12mm, which is Victor's estimate as well.
So according to the math, it should work...
But I do believe the owner (seller) of the lens when he says that it is the rear element of the lens contacting the camera mount which limits the movements, so I am not going to take a risk with this lens.
The lens is actually a Sinaron lens which has been remounted in a copal shutter. It could be that the dimension are different compared to that of an original Digaron? Also (although I do not think it plays a role) the aperture labels of the copal 0 shutter start at 5.6 and not 4 as it should, meaning that when the lens is fully open (f4) the shutter indicates 5.6, and so on.
An other difference might be that the camera mount for the X1D is thicker? Althouhg this would be strange...

Cheers
Vvince

this seems to be a self made changing of the shutter that could be not the best idea.
when the lens perform well- than its OK. When not it would be the best solution to send it to rodenstock for calibration. thay have usually the right aperture scale also.
when you want to use the scale that is on the shutter you should check if the aperture scale starts at the right point. from that you simply count down the aperture but the start point is important.

 

[rdeloe]

Thanks for checking the numbers Rob.
I do not have a tool for precisely measuring, but my estimate is about 11-12mm, which is Victor's estimate as well.
So according to the math, it should work...
But I do believe the owner (seller) of the lens when he says that it is the rear element of the lens contacting the camera mount which limits the movements, so I am not going to take a risk with this lens.
The lens is actually a Sinaron lens which has been remounted in a copal shutter. It could be that the dimension are different compared to that of an original Digaron? Also (although I do not think it plays a role) the aperture labels of the copal 0 shutter start at 5.6 and not 4 as it should, meaning that when the lens is fully open (f4) the shutter indicates 5.6, and so on.
An other difference might be that the camera mount for the X1D is thicker? Althouhg this would be strange...

Cheers
Vvince

I totally understand your concern Vince. It's a lot of money. Now that you've indicated it's been remounted by someone, I too would be very hesitant.

I would not rule out a properly mounted version of the lens working. Steve's measurement of 9.8mm tells me it should work with a GFX if you had one properly mounted.

The fact that the lens you looked at is not working properly with an X1D 50C is especially strange because that system has a flange distance of 18.3mm. Using Steve's 9.8mm figure, that should put the rear of the lens 12.5mm from the Actus. Something weird is definitely going on.

Good luck finding something that satisfies you.

 

[vvince]

Thanks to all for your knowledgeable comments.
The lens was 1100 euros, which I guess would have been a good price if it had been properly working.
So, I will have to stick with the Actar, or maybe find a Schneider Componon HM 60mm which Rob likes so much.

cheers
Vvince

 

[rdeloe]

Thanks to all for your knowledgeable comments.
The lens was 1100 euros, which I guess would have been a good price if it had been properly working.
So, I will have to stick with the Actar, or maybe find a Schneider Componon HM 60mm which Rob likes so much.

cheers
Vvince

If you go want to go the Apo Componon HM 60/4 route, keep in mind you have three choices (all the same glass as far as I know): enlarger mount, Makro-Iris mount (like mine) or Apo-Digitar variant in Copal 0 or in the Schneider iris mount with Copal 0 thread. Also, remember that the image circle is not huge, so it's not reasonable to expect more than 8mm of shift on a GFX.