Travelling with a technical camera

[SWCswede]

Wow. @SWCswede you might've saved some of us the trouble of responding if you had stated up front your disdain, distrust or avoidance of anything Chinese or affiliated with a company based in China - i.e., Hasselblad X series, Phocus, DJI... Best of luck to you. I'm out.

Well I certainly haven't ruled out the CFV 100C simply based on the fact that it is Chinese -- I have repeatedly mentioned it as a possible option in this thread. And I would be happy to buy a DJI drone if they simply sold me a drone instead of trying to spy on me AFTER I pay them a four-figure sum of money. But I find it important to see things for what they are, and that includes certain attitudes ("oh no someone is calling us out? Pretend to be really upset in order to distract attention from what they have pointed out!") that I have observed repeatedly while travelling.

 

[darr]

I appreciate the discussion on UI design and the challenge manufacturers face in balancing simplicity with broad usability. We all bring our own perspectives to the table, but I have to say, dismissing an entire group of people or their work based on nationality crosses a line. I respect different opinions on camera systems, but I also respect the individuals behind them, including my friends and colleagues. Photography is an art that transcends borders—perhaps our discussions should, too.

I understand concerns about data privacy, but the reality is that whenever we buy and use electronics—whether cameras, software, or any connected device—we’re sharing some level of information with the manufacturer, regardless of where they’re based. From firmware updates to user registrations, this isn’t unique to any one country. If data collection is the concern, it's worth applying the same scrutiny across all manufacturers, not just singling out one.

 

[SWCswede]

I understand concerns about data privacy, but the reality is that whenever we buy and use electronics—whether cameras, software, or any connected device—we’re sharing some level of information with the manufacturer, regardless of where they’re based. From firmware updates to user registrations, this isn’t unique to any one country.

This is not true. If I buy a Canon or Nikon or Fuji, I do not have to install any special software or mobile app in order to use it. You insert a memory card, shoot, and process the files in a 3rd party app (ACR or C1). Most of these cameras can have their firmware updated simply by downloading it off the manufacturer's website. I never registered any of my cameras but I still get warranty service if I present the purchase invoice.

DJI have specifically chosen to design their set-up workflow so that you cannot use their drones (even drones which come with a separate controller and do not require a mobile phone to use!) without first downloading the DJI app on your phone, granting it permissions to access your data, and providing your personal information.

Yes, Adobe and (in particular) Microsoft as well as other software manufacturers are also problematic in this respect. But even they usually respect data protection and privacy rules (such as the EU GDPR). The data collection I have seen from Chinese software manufacturers is consistently aggressive, far reaching, and unnecessary.

This is not a matter of ethnicity or cultural background -- it is a matter of political policy, where companies are expected to collect data on everyone with the aim of someday using that data to further the domestic and foreign policy objectives of the state.

And when you have a central instance dictating it be done, then it is fair to apply a broad brush consistent with the breadth of that diktat.

Similarly, the behaviours and attitudes of Chinese tourists originating from mainland China are shaped by elaborate mechanisms of opinion- and attitude-forming, mechanisms whose existence and effectiveness is openly acknowledged by all sides. This creates a homogeneity which is not seen in most other cultures.

In the past, this was used for the benefit of China: the country's incredible success is largely the product of Deng Xiaoping's magic formula of hard work and humility. Then Xi Jinping decided he knew better and replaced humility with arrogance. (The result is an economy which is stagnating so badly the Party recently had to reverse themselves and bring back the disgraced Jack Ma to try and save the situation.)

But in this environment, it makes sense for Hasselblad to design their UI so as to appeal to Chinese amateur photographers and the political imperative to demonstrate Chinese superiority, the way Arcteryx established itself as one of the "Three jewels of the Chinese middle class" after being bought by a Chinese company.

Anyway, we are getting rather off-topic.

 

[darr]

This will be my last response in this thread.

I think it’s important to distinguish between concerns about data privacy and broad generalizations that cross into something else. Data collection is a global issue—not unique to any one country or company. If privacy is the concern, then the discussion should be about transparency and regulation across the board, rather than singling out one group in a way that feels more like distrust based on origin than facts.

This forum is a jewel on the web—there’s no better place for medium format digital discussions. The wealth of knowledge shared here comes from people who are passionate about photography, not politics. It’s a place where insight is given freely, built on mutual respect. If you’re here to contribute and uplift the conversation, great. But if your energy is negative or dismissive of others based on nationality, then this isn’t the place for that. Respect for all members is the foundation of this community, and that’s something worth protecting.

 

[f6cvalkyrie]

Hi Rafael. Absolutely. It's an Ortlieb Atrack 35 Litre bag. The bag itself is basically a dry bag with a harness. There are four slim zippered pouches inside, and a couple mesh bags on the outsides for water bottles, but that's it. Whatever you carry goes in inserts. I'm using a Tenba insert for the F-Universalis, and for the lenses and cameras I have the insert from another pack (Wandrd Privke 21 Litre). Endless different inserts will fit.

In addition to being actually waterproof, it's quite comfortable to carry. The harness is very adjustable.

Thank you, Rob, I will check all that out !

 

[Niddiot]

Thank you, Rob, I will check all that out !

2nd vote for the Ortleib and the Tenba BYOB inserts. Excellent low profile bag. Another good bag for Tech cam is the larger Atlas Adventure pack.

 

[SWCswede]

2nd vote for the Ortleib and the Tenba BYOB inserts. Excellent low profile bag. Another good bag for Tech cam is the larger Atlas Adventure pack.

Question for you and @rdeloe -- how have you found the zipper on the Atrack to hold up in the long run? When I examined the Atracks, I was a little concerned that the zipper would lose its waterproofing after a few hundred (or thousand) open/close cycles.

 

[Niddiot]

Question for you and @rdeloe -- how have you found the zipper on the Atrack to hold up in the long run? When I examined the Atracks, I was a little concerned that the zipper would lose its waterproofing after a few hundred (or thousand) open/close cycles.

No problem here with zips. I did break off the chest strap on one side and although Ortleib sent a replacement I could not fit it for love nor money. They did say it was difficult !

 

[Doppler9000]

This is not a matter of ethnicity or cultural background -- it is a matter of political policy, where companies are expected to collect data on everyone with the aim of someday using that data to further the domestic and foreign policy objectives of the state.

And when you have a central instance dictating it be done, then it is fair to apply a broad brush consistent with the breadth of that diktat.

If you’re going to make blatantly racist statements, at least be honest about it.

Your first ‘Chinese’ reference on this thread was you inferring, somehow, that the UI of Hasselblad cameras was designed by Chinese teenagers. Are you now suggesting that this inference was based on your deep understanding of Chinese political aspirations? You’re just telling us how it is?

Similarly, the behaviours and attitudes of Chinese tourists originating from mainland China are shaped by elaborate mechanisms of opinion- and attitude-forming, mechanisms whose existence and effectiveness is openly acknowledged by all sides. This creates a homogeneity which is not seen in most other cultures.

But in this environment, it makes sense for Hasselblad to design their UI so as to appeal to Chinese amateur photographers and the political imperative to demonstrate Chinese superiority, the way Arcteryx established itself as one of the "Three jewels of the Chinese middle class" after being bought by a Chinese company.

Arcteryx is a Canadian company and has been a brand known for well-designed and well-made gear for decades. Shoe-horning it into your political theorem is ridiculous.

Suggesting that Hasselblad’s UI reflects careful Chinese state behavior-controlling policy is ludicrous.

You are a poster child for racist confirmation bias.

 

[SWCswede]

Your first ‘Chinese’ reference on this thread was you inferring, somehow, that the UI of Hasselblad cameras was designed by Chinese teenagers. Are you now suggesting that this inference was based on your deep understanding of Chinese political aspirations? You’re just telling us how it is?

If you read my original post on the Hasselblad UI, I said that I wanted to avoid being unfair to Fuji by only picking on their UI design, so I also pointed out some issues with Hasselblad. It should have been clear that my reference to Chinese teenagers was not entirely serious. If you want to understand the deeper background issues driving Chinese corporate decision-making, see my post above.

Arcteryx is a Canadian company and has been a brand known for well-designed and well-made gear for decades. Shoe-horning it into your political theorem is ridiculous.

Arcteryx is now owned by a Chinese company. The story of Arcteryx's transformation into a symbol of Chinese success has been well documented, and it's similar to what has happened with Hasselblad. I linked to a Chinese-language article on this topic in my post above. If you don't want to translate the Chinese, here's an English-language article.

Suggesting that Hasselblad’s UI reflects careful Chinese state behavior-controlling policy is ludicrous.

I understand that the chain of causality involved is not obvious to most Westerners. That's why I provided the necessary background behind this in my post above. But this thread is fundamentally about other topics, so if you need a more detailed explanation then I will leave it to you to do further research.

You are a poster child for racist confirmation bias.

Racism is fundamentally about refusing to see how things are, and instead drawing conclusions from internal biases and prejudices. What I am doing is precisely the opposite -- looking at how things are and then drawing conclusions from that. It is a good skill to have: the camera reproduces the world as it is, rather than how we want it to be. People who prefer to live in their own illusions are better off becoming painters.

 

[Geoff]

Ouch. It’s getting a bit hot here. Can we either back off this line of thought, or at least move it to its own thread?

 

[SWCswede]

Ouch. It’s getting a bit hot here. Can we either back off this line of thought, or at least move it to its own thread?

One open question is whether there is a fundamental (hardware- or firmware-level) difference in colour between the GFX and CFV 100C. So far we've heard that

• HNCS requires using Phocus to process RAW files in order to use Hasselblad's highest-quality profiles, and
• the GFX built-profiles are not necessarily to everyone's liking, while
• Adobe's attempts to copy the Fuji profiles leave a fair bit to be desired.

All of these issues can be resolved by making your own profiles using a Colorchecker or IT8 target. However, while both cameras use the same sensor chip, there is more to a camera than that. The hardware which processes the data from the chip, and the firmware running on that hardware may be different. In this case, colours (in particular the reachable colour gamut) may still differ after calibration.

This is admittedly a very niche point. The consensus seems to be that the GFX is a superb tool for commercial work. Comments about the CFV offering "better colour" than the GFX may simply be a product of the lacklustre Adobe profiles for the GFX.

 

[Doppler9000]

Arcteryx has Chinese ownership. Arcteryx is a popular brand in China, and is one of the “Three Treasures of the Middle Class”.

You concluded that Arcteryx is popular in China and a “Treasure of the Middle Class” because it has Chinese ownership, thus fitting the facts into your overarching thesis.

The problem is that other facts disprove your thesis.

One of the “Three Treasures of the Middle Class” is Lululemon. Lululemon is a publicly-trading Canadian company. Presumably you aren’t going to try to argue that it is Chinese owned.

Your thesis doesn’t even stand up to the facts that you presented in support of it.

Racism is fundamentally about refusing to see how things are, and instead drawing conclusions from internal biases and prejudices.

Indeed.

 

[Bill_Evans]

This forum is a jewel on the web—there’s no better place for medium format digital discussions. The wealth of knowledge shared here comes from people who are passionate about photography, not politics. It’s a place where insight is given freely, built on mutual respect. If you’re here to contribute and uplift the conversation, great. But if your energy is negative or dismissive of others based on nationality, then this isn’t the place for that. Respect for all members is the foundation of this community, and that’s something worth protecting.

I had a feeling that this thread was going to end up here. That said I’m super grateful for the thoughtful and informative replies from some of the long term members of this forum. I learned a thing or two. So thanks. And I couldn’t agree with Darlene more, this is one of the finest forums I’ve ever seen.

 

[hasselblad 503cw]

This is not true. If I buy a Canon or Nikon or Fuji, I do not have to install any special software or mobile app in order to use it. You insert a memory card, shoot, and process the files in a 3rd party app (ACR or C1). Most of these cameras can have their firmware updated simply by downloading it off the manufacturer's website. I never registered any of my cameras but I still get warranty service if I present the purchase invoice.

DJI have specifically chosen to design their set-up workflow so that you cannot use their drones (even drones which come with a separate controller and do not require a mobile phone to use!) without first downloading the DJI app on your phone, granting it permissions to access your data, and providing your personal information.

Yes, Adobe and (in particular) Microsoft as well as other software manufacturers are also problematic in this respect. But even they usually respect data protection and privacy rules (such as the EU GDPR). The data collection I have seen from Chinese software manufacturers is consistently aggressive, far reaching, and unnecessary.

This is not a matter of ethnicity or cultural background -- it is a matter of political policy, where companies are expected to collect data on everyone with the aim of someday using that data to further the domestic and foreign policy objectives of the state.

And when you have a central instance dictating it be done, then it is fair to apply a broad brush consistent with the breadth of that diktat.

Similarly, the behaviours and attitudes of Chinese tourists originating from mainland China are shaped by elaborate mechanisms of opinion- and attitude-forming, mechanisms whose existence and effectiveness is openly acknowledged by all sides. This creates a homogeneity which is not seen in most other cultures.

In the past, this was used for the benefit of China: the country's incredible success is largely the product of Deng Xiaoping's magic formula of hard work and humility. Then Xi Jinping decided he knew better and replaced humility with arrogance. (The result is an economy which is stagnating so badly the Party recently had to reverse themselves and bring back the disgraced Jack Ma to try and save the situation.)

But in this environment, it makes sense for Hasselblad to design their UI so as to appeal to Chinese amateur photographers and the political imperative to demonstrate Chinese superiority, the way Arcteryx established itself as one of the "Three jewels of the Chinese middle class" after being bought by a Chinese company.

Anyway, we are getting rather off-topic.

Make discriminatory remarks
Has reported.

People said:
The more ignorance the more prejudice
The more arrogance the more aggressive

 

[bags27]

If you read my original post on the Hasselblad UI, I said that I wanted to avoid being unfair to Fuji by only picking on their UI design, so I also pointed out some issues with Hasselblad. It should have been clear that my reference to Chinese teenagers was not entirely serious. If you want to understand the deeper background issues driving Chinese corporate decision-making, see my post above.

Arcteryx is now owned by a Chinese company. The story of Arcteryx's transformation into a symbol of Chinese success has been well documented, and it's similar to what has happened with Hasselblad. I linked to a Chinese-language article on this topic in my post above. If you don't want to translate the Chinese, here's an English-language article.
I understand that the chain of causality involved is not obvious to most Westerners. That's why I provided the necessary background behind this in my post above. But this thread is fundamentally about other topics, so if you need a more detailed explanation then I will leave it to you to do further research.

Racism is fundamentally about refusing to see how things are, and instead drawing conclusions from internal biases and prejudices. What I am doing is precisely the opposite -- looking at how things are and then drawing conclusions from that. It is a good skill to have: the camera reproduces the world as it is, rather than how we want it to be. People who prefer to live in their own illusions are better off becoming painters.

I'm a mod in an entirely different type of board, and you're going off the rails here, making it extremely difficult for others to participate and for the mods to keep open what has been a really informative discussion. If you want to remain active here, I suspect you're going to have to keep all your personal judgments that don't pertain specifically to photography out of it. We're not as stupid or naive as we might seem: we all have well-formed opinions about these issues but appreciate that this is not the place to express them.

 

[isteveb]

This isn't a political forum. The topic is "Traveling with a technical camera". It would be nice if it could stay on that track and leave the political and ethnic discourse at home or on other forums that discuss such things and have nothing to do with this one.

 

[SWCswede]

You concluded that Arcteryx is popular in China and a “Treasure of the Middle Class” because it has Chinese ownership, thus fitting the facts into your overarching thesis.

One of the “Three Treasures of the Middle Class” is Lululemon. Lululemon is a publicly-trading Canadian company. Presumably you aren’t going to try to argue that it is Chinese owned.

Arcteryx took off in China after it was acquired by a Chinese company, thus allowing Arcteryx to fit into one Party-given narrative. Lululemon is the exception that proves the rule: it became popular in China after and because the Party started the "Healthy China" initiative and Lululemon was able to fit itself into that agenda, something which Lululemon's CEO openly acknowledges. (see link)

But please -- you agreed with @Geoff 's post that it was time to move this discussion in a different direction, but still you could not help yourself from coming back and re-opening the topic. This is a thread about medium-format technical cameras and travel and digital backs and wide-angle lenses.

 

[Doppler9000]

Lululemon is the exception that proves the rule

Exceptions don’t prove rules, they disprove them.

Though it would seem that logic and fact aren’t so important to you.