Why are we stuck with miserable camera control software?

[cunim]

Rant on
I use Capture 1 with an IQ back. C1 will do all sorts of image editing (which I don't need), but it has only rudimentary control of the hardware. Why? A lot of work has gone into developing the piffle while the basics are ignored. We already have Lightroom and Photoshop for image editing. In contrast, I have no other options for camera control. I understand that MF cameras constitute a small market but the same principle applies to every digital camera out there. If you are tethered, you should never have to touch the camera.

For example, let's say I want to configure an acquisition mode that combines image averaging with stacking. That's a simple function - acquire X images, average them, store the result and move to the next step. I should be able to set that up on the computer monitor, push a button and have a coffee.. Instead, I have to set up just one mode on the back, enable acquisition on the PC, and then return to the back when I need to change a stacking parameter or when I am done.. This is all a royal PITA if I am tethered and sitting at the computer. I'm too old to enjoy jumping up and down every time I need to get into the deeper functions of the back - or the XF for that matter.

Years ago I owned a company that made image analysis systems. We used all sorts of hardware (eg nitrogen cooled cameras, microscopes with cameras and motor controlled XYZ stages) but our customers barely knew they had hardware. To them, the PC was doing all the work and they could exercise every function of the hardware from the PC. In contrast, the limited functionality of C1 is laughable .... and irritating. I have the impression that most photographers tolerate this because they don't know how much easier it can be to work with seamless hardware integration. It doesn't have to be this way. Although I have never tried it, I believe P1's industrial systems are less compromised. I want P1 to take responsibility for controlling their prosumer hardware as well. Create a stripped package that just does acquisition. I will dump C1 in an instant, if I can get that.

Rant off.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

There's not enough money for C1 to deploy programming capacity to cater to the niche digi back crowd. Market has shifted. Backs are not a necessity anymore for the photographic high-end. If you have 10 programmers you let them optimize code for Sony, Canon, Nikon and the main user personas in the market: wedding photographers, hobbyists, landscape photographers.

That's why you will see AI sky replacement before any fancy camera control macros for digi backs.

If you owned C1 you'd also aim to capture market share from Lightroom rather than to make a few nerds on a forum happy, I would assume.

It has to do with simple RoI considerations.

Last figure I heard was that Hassy is selling 500ish backs per year. That's nothing compared to the millions of Sony/Canon/Nikon photographers. That's the reality.

We are the 0.01% percent ...

 

[cunim]

Paul, I have to disagree with much of what you say. The market realities are that hardware control is very effective in establishing a protected share, and we are not just talking about MF backs. We are discussing all tethered cameras and, potentially, motorized stepping and scanning stages. The difficulty is that hardware interfacing has fewer short term benefits than the oooh shiny stuff. Marketers always want visible features because that is what customers know they want and ask for. Most customers don't know that what they really want is to use their equipment better and more easily - because they have never been able to do that.

At the technical level, AI sky is much, much more difficult than hardware control. The hard part of hardware is establishing a collaborative relationship with the equipment suppliers so that they keep you updated on their low level libraries and new products. The smart hardware suppliers realize that this relationship will help to sell their products in the long term. The smart developers know that these intercorporate relationships are valuable in adding equity to the software owner. Been there, done that.

Never mind. It just seems to me that the C1 guys are flailing around without really knowing where they are going. Meanwhile, we put up with the suboptimal product that we have and that's a shame.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Paul, I have to disagree with much of what you say. The market realities are that hardware control is very effective in establishing a protected share, and we are not just talking about MF backs. We are discussing all tethered cameras and, potentially, motorized stepping and scanning stages. The difficulty is that hardware interfacing has fewer short term benefits than the oooh shiny stuff. Marketers always want visible features because that is what customers know they want and ask for. Most customers don't know that what they really want is to use their equipment better and more easily - because they have never been able to do that.

At the technical level, AI sky is much, much more difficult than hardware control. The hard part of hardware is establishing a collaborative relationship with the equipment suppliers so that they keep you updated on their low-level libraries and new products. The smart hardware suppliers realize that this relationship will help to sell their products in the long term. The smart developers know that these intercorporate relationships are valuable in adding equity to the software owner. Been there, done that.

Never mind. It just seems to me that the C1 guys are flailing around without really knowing where they are going. Meanwhile, we put up with the suboptimal product that we have and that's a shame.

You can disagree, but the team lead of C1 mobile himself wrote me via DM after commenting on the release on Instagram and we got into a discussion on why P1 backs aren't supported. Basically, he said, they are re-building the app from scratch for the Ipad platform and all bigger programming modules such as ICC profile implementation, camera control, tethering, basic adjustments, etc. have a certain priority to them as feature implementations. The guiding principle is which features are most sought after by the biggest population, ie the very commong Lightroom user.

As you know, the app can already be subscribed for 5USD per month to partially fund further development, despite the quasi beta nature of the product and they are now building it out with the programming capacities they have one step at a time.

He said that the P1 backs have a lower hardware-level, ie more sophisticated protocol that requires a lot more programming than other manufacturers' protocols. Apparently it was also only the latest iPad OS release which gave them required hardware access to pull it off, ie the OS based compatibility only came during the development of C1 mobile and wasn't clear from the start. That's why it took so long – they released it today – it was not very high up on the priority list and OS limitations for USB-C access where only lifted recently. In terms of features first come Sony, Canon, Nikon compatibility things, and only at the very end P1 backs related features.

The camera control module on iPad is still being programmed – he said it will come at one point –, but it will be similar to the one on the desktop version. Ie a nice interface to select shutter speed, ISO, camera mode, etc. Clearly, implementing more complex automation would come much later, if at all, given the desktop version doesn't even have it.

The reality is that there's full well a feature roadmap in place focused on the Lightroom user base and with 99% certainty easy, consumer oriented image editing tools are high up on the roadmap whereas support for "motorized stepping and scanning stages" will come in a very distant if "never future" to C1 mobile ... what you are suggesting IS more of a niche feature request based on your own experience and not reflective of what most people would mention from a photo editing software, dare I say.

Unfortunately, it seems people like automatic object recognition / removal / improvement things ... ie sort all images with one click, retouch with one click, etc. and not forcibly advanced hardware tethering automation / integration stuff.

 

[MGrayson]

Disclaimer: I'm taking no sides in this debate. I make decisions based on what works. However, this question reminds me of a routine by a comic whose name can probably still not be uttered. (I am paraphrasing from memory...)

I'm on a flight. The WiFi on the plane stops working and the guy across the aisle says "This is bullshit!" And I think "Dude, you are sitting in a chair. IN THE SKY, and it is FLYING."

 

[buildbot]

The reality is that there's full well a feature roadmap in place focused on the Lightroom user base and with 99% certainty easy, consumer oriented image editing tools are high up on the roadmap whereas support for "motorized stepping and scanning stages" will come in a very distant if "never future" to C1 mobile ... what you are suggesting IS more of a niche feature request based on your own experience and not reflective of what most people would mention from a photo editing software, dare I say.

I 100% agree with this, but in my own opinion, this is a loosing battle with Adobe. Capture One mobile is nowhere close to being a usable replacement for Lightroom, the cloud syncing feature is laughably bad. Lightroom meanwhile, has 30K of my photos on tap whenever I want, searchable with AI for people, places, and things, and supports literally everything but my IQ3 Achro (annoying). I don't know why as a Lightroom user you would switch over unless you specifically love the Capture One "look" which may be different in the mobile app anyway.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I 100% agree with this, but in my own opinion, this is a losing battle with Adobe. Capture One mobile is nowhere close to being a usable replacement for Lightroom, the cloud syncing feature is laughably bad. Lightroom meanwhile, has 30K of my photos on tap whenever I want, searchable with AI for people, places, and things, and supports literally everything but my IQ3 Achro (annoying). I don't know why as a Lightroom user you would switch over unless you specifically love the Capture One "look" which may be different in the mobile app anyway.

C1 mobile is just a team within C1 and they need to battle the behemoth that is Adobe - it is an unequal fight from a resource perspective, but still, C1 has a different look and feel that some pros prefer and especially when C1 was still available with a perpetual license model it gained a bit of traction.

Wonder how they fare now with the subscription model they are effectively forcing on people. You can still buy perpetual, but they disincentivize it massively with some planned obsolescence bogus whereby you won't get any feature updates beyond what you got when you bought your license, etc.

I personally prefer C1 - it has a few cool features like the export module and especially tethering for P1 backs with x shutter control. But it lacks in other areas, especially handling of LUTs.

 

[MGrayson]

C1 mobile is just a team within C1 and they need to battle the behemoth that is Adobe - it is an unequal fight from a resource perspective, but still, C1 has a different look and feel that some pros prefer and especially when C1 was still available with a perpetual license model it gained a bit of traction.

Wonder how they fare now with the subscription model they are effectively forcing on people. You can still buy perpetual, but they disincentivize it massively with some planned obsolescence bogus whereby you won't get any feature updates beyond what you got when you bought your license, etc.

I personally prefer C1 - it has a few cool features like the export module and especially tethering for P1 backs with x shutter control. But it lacks in other areas, especially handling of LUTs.

I always liked C1 color, didn’t mind the workflow, and found their DAM and printing laughable (I had to write shell scripts to delete the billion cache folders). But I always upgraded my license.

Now, I’ve dropped C1 like a stone. I’m forced into Adobe’s model for community reasons. I’m damned if I’m going to do it again voluntarily.

 

[buildbot]

C1 mobile is just a team within C1 and they need to battle the behemoth that is Adobe - it is an unequal fight from a resource perspective, but still, C1 has a different look and feel that some pros prefer and especially when C1 was still available with a perpetual license model it gained a bit of traction.

Wonder how they fare now with the subscription model they are effectively forcing on people. You can still buy perpetual, but they disincentivize it massively with some planned obsolescence bogus whereby you won't get any feature updates beyond what you got when you bought your license, etc.

I personally prefer C1 - it has a few cool features like the export module and especially tethering for P1 backs with x shutter control. But it lacks in other areas, especially handling of LUTs.

I too prefer C1 - but for all the reason you listed I am worried about the iOS app and their general direction.
If they are redoing the entire app from scratch, is the processing the same?
Can the small team offer competitive features to Adobe worth 60USD per year?
Do they have any clue how to actually offer a cloud product?

 

[bab]

So you want the camera to do the work for you what a novel idea! I have asked Hasselblad for 10 years to give integrated step focusing for the H system now they offer a crude work a round for the X system. I expect the task you requested will become a standard in the future.
PS most Danes who live in the exclusive city area spend all their money on a apartment, boat and a plane.

 

[cunim]

What an interesting discussion. As someone who has used C1 and Phocus for tethered photography, I like the plane analogy, except I feel more like I’m on a flying pig.

All I’m saying is that it can be much better than it is and, for the corporate types with some imagination, the rewards are there. Or everyone can keep doing the same miserable products (an IPAD C1? Really?). Aaargh.

Again, never mind. It is what it is. Maybe one of those Danes will give me a ride in his plane to cheer me up. Tak.

 

[alistairsimmons]

I'm on a flight. The WiFi on the plane stops working and the guy across the aisle says "This is bullshit!" And I think "Dude, you are sitting in a chair. UP IN THE SKY. and it is FLYING."

George Carlin!

 

[alistairsimmons]

Marketers always want visible features because that is what customers know they want and ask for. Most customers don't know that what they really want is to use their equipment better and more easily - because they have never been able to do that.

+1 for this sentiment.

 

[MGrayson]

George Carlin!

Quite possible - it sounds like him. I thought it was Louis CK, but my memory is not what it used to be. I think...

 

[Geoff]

Ah the old dilemma - how do you compete when your market share (and research funds) are diminishing, in a fight against changing world, and a behemoth? Everyone has a notion of where to place limited resources - seems like a battle between 1) ease of use or 2) specialty features to maintain identity and uniqueness. Both approaches have merit. We can carp all we want, but they have more data to work with, and one hopes are making the right decisions to maintain their future viability...

Personal preference - C1 has a simpler, almost industrial interface and application , and is much easier to use (IMHO) than LR. It just falls to hand. A few too many iPad-oriented shifts in the latest versions, but its tolerable. Still falls to hand readily.

Presently use C1 for higher end work, separate sessions for each shoot, no DAM. Use LR for more casual imagery, and management. Luckily educational discount for Adobe Suite is not expensive. I only hope C1 doesn't go away - still having to deal (sadly) with several huge Aperture databases that need a new home....