M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

[D&A]

I have the feeling that for "absolute" IQ I would rather use MF (in my case S2), and that for using the M9 I am pretty happy with the IQ I can get from a 50 Summilux or Summarit. And for that amount of money I rather like to have the "special effects" of the Noctilux.

But ....maybe I will change my mind after having seen the first images with this lens. And I have to say I do like that Leica is brave enough to present a lens like this.

LOL! I just read what you wrote after writing my lengthy post above. You stated exactly what I feel many M users feel about shooting their M camera vs. other systems they have , whether Nikon, the S2 or Medium format. Namely when it comes down to absolute sharpness and resolution above everything else, thats fine for those other systems (and rightfull so for most)...but when it comes down to why they shoot a Leica M, for some, it's more than absolute resolution & sharpness...but charater too in the way their lenses "draw" an image. Your expressing spending for a Noct before wanting the new 50mm AA is just an example...or if you wanted a techinically perfect images, you would use your S2. Interesting!

I agree, the Leica lenses you mentioned still have character, even though they are of modern design....but I also see a trend with many recent Leica M lens releases....and that is technical perfection above all else. The 75mm cron, the new 50mm Cron APO (although we still have to see what images from it are like), the new 21mm f3.4 and most notably the new 35mm Lux asph FLE are just a few examples. The current 50mm Lux asph although having maybe less character than the pre asph, does have a signature than many identfy with. It's just a recent trend in my opinion and I've heard it said by others. Again its all very subjective...no right or wrong and it depends on one's intended use.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Paratom]

LOL! I just read what you wrote after writing my lengthy post above. You stated exactly what I feel many M users feel about shooting their M camera vs. other systems they have , whether Nikon, the S2 or Medium format. Namely when it comes down to absolute sharpness and resolution above everything else, thats fine for those other systems (and rightfull so for most)...but when it comes down to why they shoot a Leica M, for some, it's more than absolute resolution & sharpness...but charater too in the way their lenses "draw" an image. Your expressing spending for a Noct before wanting the new 50mm AA is just an example...or if you wanted a techinically perfect images, you would use your S2. Interesting!

I agree, the Leica lenses you mentioned still have character, even though they are of modern design....but I also see a trend with many recent Leica M lens releases....and that is technical perfection above all else. The 75mm cron, the new 50mm Cron APO (although we still have to see what images from it are like), the new 21mm f3.4 and most notably the new 35mm Lux asph FLE are just a few examples. The current 50mm Lux asph although having maybe less character than the pre asph, does have a signature than many identfy with. It's just a recent trend in my opinion and I've heard it said by others. Again its all very subjective...no right or wrong and it depends on one's intended use.

Dave (D&A)

Dave,
I think we agree in maby points but differ in one - I believe high resolution doesnt necessarly mean less character.

 

[D&A]

Dave,
I think we agree in maby points but differ in one - I believe high resolution doesnt necessarly mean less character.

You are correct! High resolution does not mean less character. Maybe I should have said, it often appears technically perfect lenses often lack some or many of the characteristics that are often desirable in shooting certain subjects. Often some older or less technically perfectly designed lenses with a certain degree of optical flaws, aberations etc., seem to have a optical signature or fingerprint, which adds character to an image and enhances it's look or presentation in the eyes of many.

I think it's actually possible to achieve a number of these goals in a single design...one that is of high resolution, superb sharpness across the frame, yet is specifically designed to have a readily identfiable character, one that many will find attractive for certain types of imagery...whether it be B&W, street or reportage photgraphy or some others. If it wasn't for the last generation 35mm Lux asph (pre FLE) exhibiting focus shift along with maybe a bit too much field curvature (yielding to slightly soft edges)...some might say a lens like this had many of those desirable traits...or maybe the current 50mm Lux asph, which may lean on the side of technical perfection but neverless some feel still draws a lovely image. I'd put the currrent 28mm Crom in much the same catagory as the current 50mm Lux asph.

It may not be a surprise that some have traded in their 35mm Lux asph FLE for the current VC 35mm f1.2...simply to get back some of the character and nice bokeh along with its indentifiable fingerprint, that some felt was lost with the technically superior and near perfect 35mm Lux asph FLE.

Dave (D&A)

 

[jlm]

Reminds me of the Stieglitz school of photography departing from the portrait school back in, what, 1902?

 

[jonoslack]

With regards to the M system, character (or the way a lens "draws") is a big plus for some. A higher resolution M10 may indeed require lenses like the new 50mm APO to take advantage of its new sensor, yet many cannot get away from the fact that the M body is simply used as a vehicle to choose their canvas brush (the lens) to paint their picture. Many have felt recent Leica lens releases have been "near" technically perfect but that perfection has come with a price...namely loss of character. I've heard it from many. Even the amazing 35mm Lux asph FLE has its distractors, due to the sometimes less than pleasing bokeh thats can be provoked in some situations when shooting with that lens.

hi there
I can't tell you how much I disagree. The Mandler lenses are lovely, but there are a lot of truths around which need to be examined. I give you two examples

1. The 35 cron IV is the bokeh king
Just like the new FLE it sometimes gets it badly wrong
2. The 75 'cron APO is too clinical
Spend an hour with one and you'll appreciate it's organic and delicate character.

I've spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying differente eras of lenses, and I've come to the conclusion that the modern lenses have a consistency and character that cannot be matched. Of course this is my opinion, and I fully appreciate that some may prefer the older lenses. But there's no need to qualify this preference by accusing the modern lenses of lacking character.

I've spent an hour with the new summicron, and I've seen a bunch of images (by better photographers than me ) printed to 6ft. it's gorgeous. Not because it's sharp, but because it's gorgeous! I've been kidnapping grannies all over Norfolk to sell so that I can buy one!

The new lenses are probably more technically perfect. But this doesn't necessarily imply a loss of character.

(or you could assume that, having spent so much on modern lenses "he would say that wouldn't he":ROTFL:

 

[jonoslack]

Wow. Sometimes I forget how lucky we are on GetDPI to have more-often-than-not civilized conversations with differences-in-tastes taken into consideration and appreciation for when someone puts information out into the community.

Reading through the immature, unappreciative, dismissive banter on Range Finder Forum nearly made me sick to my stomach.

GetDPI may have ties to "Dante's Inferno". But RFF is truly a descent into hell.

Hi there Doug
You're so right. It's lovely here, and I so much appreciate the responses I've had. It definitely feels like home. (thank you again everbody)
Of course, if you put yourself out there you have to be prepared for a slappin'. I've been there before, and I understand the deal. Doesn't make it more comfortable though. Of course, I realise my own limitations, but it's nicer to keep it to oneself.
I console myself with private critiques of the detracter's images which I share with the boss one example was:
"cliched,shallow and sexist images of women which don't even have the courage to be raunchy"

So another big thank you to everyone here for being fantastic and civilised!

 

[Hosermage]

Say Jono... so when you take a vacation this summer... can I tag along? :angel:

 

[fotografz]

hi there
I can't tell you how much I disagree. The Mandler lenses are lovely, but there are a lot of truths around which need to be examined. I give you two examples

1. The 35 cron IV is the bokeh king
Just like the new FLE it sometimes gets it badly wrong
2. The 75 'cron APO is too clinical
Spend an hour with one and you'll appreciate it's organic and delicate character.

I've spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying differente eras of lenses, and I've come to the conclusion that the modern lenses have a consistency and character that cannot be matched. Of course this is my opinion, and I fully appreciate that some may prefer the older lenses. But there's no need to qualify this preference by accusing the modern lenses of lacking character.

I've spent an hour with the new summicron, and I've seen a bunch of images (by better photographers than me ) printed to 6ft. it's gorgeous. Not because it's sharp, but because it's gorgeous! I've been kidnapping grannies all over Norfolk to sell so that I can buy one!

The new lenses are probably more technically perfect. But this doesn't necessarily imply a loss of character.

(or you could assume that, having spent so much on modern lenses "he would say that wouldn't he":ROTFL:

I'd tend to agree. The 50 LUX ASPH is a perfect example of a modern lens with lots of character, but not at the expense of other attributes. All my M lenses are modern fast ASPHs save one ... the 90/2.8, which I love for portrait type work and the way it renders.

I also think the type and quality of light plays a huge role in what is often subscribed as "lens character" ... not to mention the hugh variance in opinions regarding what constitutes good "bokeh."

At least there is something out there for most everyone's tastes.

-Marc

 

[jonoslack]

I'd tend to agree. The 50 LUX ASPH is a perfect example of a modern lens with lots of character, but not at the expense of other attributes. All my M lenses are modern fast ASPHs save one ... the 90/2.8, which I love for portrait type work and the way it renders.

I also think the type and quality of light plays a huge role in what is often subscribed as "lens character" ... not to mention the hugh variance in opinions regarding what constitutes good "bokeh."

At least there is something out there for most everyone's tastes.

-Marc

Hi Marc
The 90 f2.8 is the only non ASPH lense I have. I love it. The fan painter shots on the website were all taken with it.
As for Bokeh. Stir lighting, personal preference, subject matter and focal length into the mix, and it's hard to get to any real truth.
All the best

 

[Vivek]

Well, I don't think the lens was built for this particular camera/sensor only. I've read so much that I don't remember where all the information comes from anymore... but someone did said that this lens is paired with this camera because of the new resolution the sensor is capable and it'll really show off in the image. If it's inception was really from 16 years ago, I would guess that APO was an added bonus of the design, and perhaps useful when M10 is released in later months.

edit: doh, it was from the video... "This lens will of course only reach peak performance in conjunction with the M9 Monochrome because it has the resolution, and the entire imaging chain is so lossless, that it's only then that the performance of the lens comes across."

Even if everything is contradictory, it makes perfect sense doesn't it?

 

[iiiNelson]

hi there
I can't tell you how much I disagree. The Mandler lenses are lovely, but there are a lot of truths around which need to be examined. I give you two examples

1. The 35 cron IV is the bokeh king
Just like the new FLE it sometimes gets it badly wrong
2. The 75 'cron APO is too clinical
Spend an hour with one and you'll appreciate it's organic and delicate character.

I've spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying differente eras of lenses, and I've come to the conclusion that the modern lenses have a consistency and character that cannot be matched. Of course this is my opinion, and I fully appreciate that some may prefer the older lenses. But there's no need to qualify this preference by accusing the modern lenses of lacking character.

I've spent an hour with the new summicron, and I've seen a bunch of images (by better photographers than me ) printed to 6ft. it's gorgeous. Not because it's sharp, but because it's gorgeous! I've been kidnapping grannies all over Norfolk to sell so that I can buy one!

The new lenses are probably more technically perfect. But this doesn't necessarily imply a loss of character.

(or you could assume that, having spent so much on modern lenses "he would say that wouldn't he":ROTFL:

I generally agree that the new lenses are all technically better and still maintain character - it's just a different character than some of the classic cult favorites. I think the sticker shock of the new 50 APO-ASPH Cron shocked most people considering that the current 75 and 90 are also APO Summicron that go for half the price. Begs the question for some as to why this one costs so much more than the other APO-Summicrons.

I understand the argument is apples to oranges and I'm sure they will develop a future lens shortage with this lens as well. I'd like to have one possibly but it would have to wait until after other pending purchases.

 

[Brian S]

Just looked at three Summicrons: The Infrared Focus Index for the original Summicron is within the F2 Depth of Field marks. The Collapsible Summicron-M and original Rigid Summicron do not have an IR Index, I assume it might be even better than the 1952 (below SN 1M) lens that has it.

so Summicrons did not have very far to go to be APO.

The original Summicron might be the perfect match for an M9M. Slightly Yellowed. Looks great on B&W film. Mine has been to Focalpoint.

 

[Vivek]

Just looked at three Summicrons: The Infrared Focus Index for the original Summicron is within the F2 Depth of Field marks. The Collapsible Summicron-M and original Rigid Summicron do not have an IR Index, I assume it might be even better than the 1952 (below SN 1M) lens that has it.

so Summicrons did not have very far to go to be APO.

The original Summicron might be the perfect match for an M9M. Slightly Yellowed. Looks great on B&W film. Mine has been to Focalpoint.

Brian, A wealth of information as always.

Sorry to be redundant- the same question I asked David.

Why an APO for a monochrome camera?

 

[jlm]

isn't the idea of the apo to bring a full(er) spectrum of wavelengths into focus at the same focus setting? and therefore it doesn't matter if the sensor is color blind

 

[Vivek]

isn't the idea of the apo to bring a full(er) spectrum of wavelengths into focus at the same focus setting? and therefore it doesn't matter if the sensor is color blind

That is what I would think but apparently that is not the Leica way? Obviously they know something that I need to be educated on. I will keep an eye on vimeo.

 

[GrahamWelland]

isn't the idea of the apo to bring a full(er) spectrum of wavelengths into focus at the same focus setting? and therefore it doesn't matter if the sensor is color blind

That's EXACTLY what it does, so yes I agree with you John.

 

[D&A]

I'd tend to agree. The 50 LUX ASPH is a perfect example of a modern lens with lots of character, but not at the expense of other attributes. All my M lenses are modern fast ASPHs save one ... the 90/2.8, which I love for portrait type work and the way it renders.

I also think the type and quality of light plays a huge role in what is often subscribed as "lens character" ... not to mention the hugh variance in opinions regarding what constitutes good "bokeh."

At least there is something out there for most everyone's tastes.

-Marc

Wow, I had posted a lengthy response for both you and Jono a few minutes ago, but somehow when I came back to this thread..it simply disappeared.

In any case I agree with you Marc...the 50mm Lux asph is a modern lens that has both character and near flawless optical characteristics. Additionally like yourself and jono, I too love the 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M...it produces some incredably lovely images.

It was with certain lenses that were released most recently that I (and some others) felt were becoming too technically perfect compared to having a readily identifying signature. I partially agree with this in some cases and not in others. I'm on the fence regarding the 75mm Cron..but maybe thats after using the 75mm Lux and realizing that the latter has an overabundence amount of character yet when shot even a stop down from max. aperture, can hold it begins to hold its own with some of the best out there. It's this dual character than some miss with lenses that are near perfect from the get-go.

Again subjectivitiy plays a prominant role.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Brian S]

Why an APO for a monochrome camera?

As stated above, Chromatic Aberration softens the image as it spreads-out light of different wavelength. Correcting Chromatic Aberration (CA) optically is more critical for monochrome images as the color information is lost and post-processing cannot be used to minimize the problems.The 5cm F2 Summar is highly corrected for CA, designed at a time when color photography was uncommon.

The lower-contrast lenses that are highly corrected, such as the Summar, Summitar, Summarit, and early Summicrons should be interesting on this camera. Highly color-corrected for fine detail, low-contrast to compress the intensity range of the scene being recorded.

On a humorous note: I have a lens that was $40,000 to fabricate- 30 years ago. It was corrected so that all of the bundles of light that entered the lens would stike the image plane in phase, all traveled through the lens in the same amount of time. It was used in an optical computer.

 

[Trastevere]

Not wanting to interfere with this excellent discussion I am reluctant to ask the following question about a very minor aspect of the MM: will it have the sapphire screen of the M9-P?

 

[jlm]

Leica (and hasselblad) distinguish a few of their lenses, but not all, as apochromats. The 75mm cron and the 250 apo (blad) come to mind. all their lenses are corrected for chromatic aberration as well. anyone comment on the difference?