Site Sponsors
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 151 to 200 of 279

Thread: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

  1. #151
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,676
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Hi Guy,

    Without repeating what has been expressed in the many excellent posts (and discussion here) and most certainly all you expressed, I would ahve to admit that your feelings about focus confirmation and how I too think it should be implemented, are near identical...as is out expectations that a rangefinder like the Leica M is mostly for spontanious hand held shooting. I so far am not a fan of accessories in the shoe on top of the camera and rarely of Live view on an LCD unless maybe I'm deliberately on a tripod with a DSLR.

    A simple red (or for Guy a "green") dot in the viewfinder to indicate maxium phase contrast of the part of the subject that one is focusing on, would be welcomed. Whetehr some sort of magnification fo the optical viewfinder needs to be implemented to achieve this, might be necessary. For me personally, a M rangefinder shoudl be versitile but not turned into a psedo DSLR. I respect though that everyones needs and desires are different.

    Dave (D&A)
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #152
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    FWIW, there was effectively no delay when shooting with live view on the Leica M. No mirror and a faster shutter mechanism made for very quick shooting. I fired off a 5 or 6 shot burst in continuous mode and the screen didn't even appear to have noticeable blackout.

    And, given the size of the M, I was able to get very accurate results hand holding, both with the EVF and the LCD. If you are used to the way a Nikon or Canon handles LV then, yes, I would be wary too of handheld shooting. As I wrote in my article, you have to try it to really see just how good a job Leica did on this camera.

    Ok, back to writing..... the sun is going to come up soon
    Well good news on live view by that still does not solve the issue with wanting the camera at your eye. It's still a 12 inches from your face and for many with reading glasses on not fun to work with. You can shoot a 100 frames per second but many of us do not like composing like that and your also losing stability with the cam extended from your body. Like I said live view is on every CMOS cam out there its nothing special unless you have time to use it. It is not a total solution just like external EVF is not. What I'm talking about is fluid in camera and fast. I would never for instance shoot a cam 12 inches away if not on a tripod. Many of us won't . The cam is part of your body as soon as you extend it than its really not part of you.

    I'll be honest here I would not be buying a M for live view. Is this not the journalist camera of our lifetime. HCB would roll over in his grave with the thought of shooting with live view and not with a M pressed against his face sweating all over the thing. Now that's a Leica M camera. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #153
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    My impression is that the new M is being slightly misunderstood. It is essentially and primarily a classic RF M body, with some added electronic "conveniences" like LV, peaking, focus magnification, video. These added conveniences should not distract from what the camera really is. These additions are a solution for R lens users, for M users who would like to add more versatility to the camera by enabling it to shoot some macro and telephoto longer than 135mm, and to be able to get very precise focusing for critical applications, probably tripod mounted work.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  4. #154
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    No Leica slightly got away from there optical finder to accomplish this. I totally get the extra features I shot the M8 Professional for two years and it certainly has its limits with macro and long lenses, I actually had to give it up because of these limitations. A M is a optical RF finder that is its roots, they simply took a route that went outside of the optical . Live view is a given forget that for a moment. My point is the EVF this was the simplistic solution. What they needed to do was put and keep there roots within the optical finder. They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself. Now I admit it may have been too soon in time for a really kick butt EVF on its own to use. Bottom line this is not finished yet, version two or M11 will probably nail it just right. It's a great start don't get me wrong. But what I am talking about was talked about and maybe it is something they just cannot do. The External EVF is the biggest complaint so far and with good reason . It's adds bulk to the camera and its a cheap solution. I think for myself it would be one of those accessories that may only get pulled out with a R lens and that's okay but the heart of a M given the M roots and purist it's all based within the optical. The added live view on LCD is the bonus.

    Anyway it's just some thoughts not meant to end the world. I just look at cams and come up with ideas that make sense to me as a long time shooter that maybe more efficient.

    Okay good night folks thanks for listening. Kind of fun to kick the can around
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #155
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    A lot of internet 'expert shooters' have lots of shots of rulers with fine gradations on them and get themselves into a tizzy because fast glass has front and back focus issues - focus peaking removes this major concern of so many internet geniuses and perfectionists - therefore I would imagine these people who cried loud and long would be very happy with the additions of EVF tech - something I have been using on Sony for about a year now and think is absolutely marvelous ! Cant wait to upgrade my M into the 21st century!

    Love the idea of being able to use R glass on an M now- a pity I sold pretty much every R lens ever made by Leica up to and including the 280/4.

    Having the ability to shoot moving images using Leica glass fantastic..

    I am very happy with where Leica is taking the M camera - if I want to use the optical range finder I can -if I drop the thing and put the rangefinder patch alignment out- I can use EVF to check focus before I go home and fix teh finicky thing - and if I want to look like a tourist- I can use the LCD panel - Leica truly are very thoughtful <thumbs up>
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #156
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,930
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I have the EVF for the M already ... Use it with the X2 ... And it's an excellent EVF. my experience using the EVF with the GXR is that I want it as soon as I hit the focal length of a normal lens to obtain critical focus and framing.

    My take is that normally I shoot with 21-50 mm lenses and the RF is wonderful, just what i want, but the EVF will make using my fast 85, 90, 105, 135 and 200 mm lenses on the M a pleasure.
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #157
    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Milano, Italy
    Posts
    784
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have the EVF for the M already ... Use it with the X2 ... And it's an excellent EVF. my experience using the EVF with the GXR is that I want it as soon as I hit the focal length of a normal lens to obtain critical focus and framing.

    My take is that normally I shoot with 21-50 mm lenses and the RF is wonderful, just what i want, but the EVF will make using my fast 85, 90, 105, 135 and 200 mm lenses on the M a pleasure.
    I heard is the same EVF2 used by Olympus, anybody can confirm?

  8. #158
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,930
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    I heard is the same EVF2 used by Olympus, anybody can confirm?
    Yes, it's the Olympus VF-2. That's the one I bought. The Leica model differs only slightly in the casing design, the electronics are identical. They're made by Epson.

    G

  9. #159
    Member Arjuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself.
    I think that what you want is an optical viewfinder, that you can quickly switch to an EVF/live view mode to check focus, with minimal (optical) disruption? I can only think of a few ways to implement this:

    1. The Fuji X100. The switch between optical and EVF works more or less well, but only because you have a single focal length lens, so you can match the EVF to the optical viewfinder's magnification, and view from the fixed lens.

    2. An optical zooming viewfinder, in order to make the optical view match the size of the EVF. The Contax G is the only example of this that I know, and it isn't very much like an M. It would change the rangefinder experience completely. This is really trying to make it behave like an SLR.

    3. Scale the EVF to fit the frame lines. Probably possible, and would minimize the optical disruption, but probably not much of a focussing aid, e.g. how much would you be able to see in an EVF/live view image that fits in the 90 mm frame lines?

  10. #160
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    The point is, the Leica M is exactly an M9 with an upgraded 24 mp sensor that has better performance concerning high iso noise and better corner performance with wides, and a much faster processor. It does not have to be anything else, if you don't push that button that is. And you don't have to push that button.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  11. #161
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    A M is a optical RF finder that is its roots, they simply took a route that went outside of the optical . Live view is a given forget that for a moment. My point is the EVF this was the simplistic solution. What they needed to do was put and keep there roots within the optical finder.
    Surely that's what they've done?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself. Now I admit it may have been too soon in time for a really kick butt EVF on its own to use.
    If you put the EVF into the camera body itself (whether hybrid or separate), there is no of improving this as EVFs improve (which they are doing, at a startling rate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But what I am talking about was talked about and maybe it is something they just cannot do. The External EVF is the biggest complaint so far and with good reason . It's adds bulk to the camera and its a cheap solution.
    People have been sticking accessory viewfinders on M cameras since the early 1950s - why is it suddenly not okay? Especially considering that, in this case it has some very obvious advantages over an optical finder:
    1. you don't need to change it for different focal lengths
    2. it allows tilting for critical focusing on a tripod for instance for macro
    3. you can focus and compose with it at the same time (always an issue with optical finders)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think for myself it would be one of those accessories that may only get pulled out with a R lens and that's okay but the heart of a M given the M roots and purist it's all based within the optical. The added live view on LCD is the bonus.
    Well, I kind of agree with you here - so you'll only use it for macro and telephoto - at least, I guess that's all I'll use it for. After all, the real point of the M is the rangefinder, and it's there to use (just as it always was).

    As far as the focus confirmation point - I'd say two things:
    1. I find these confusing when there are many points in the frame which are in focus.
    2. isn't that what the rangefinder patch is for anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line this is not finished yet, version two or M11 will probably nail it just right. It's a great start don't get me wrong.
    What camera is ever finished? I do agree that a perfectly integrated hybrid viewfinder would be a wonderful thing, but certainly NOT at the expense of the mechanical rangefinder patch, and the framelines (which is what an M is about, abandon these and call it an N or a Z and that's fine). But I wonder whether the technology is there yet to commit it to an M without making unacceptable compromises to those who want to operate the camera in a traditional way.

    all the best
    Last edited by jonoslack; 20th September 2012 at 03:43. Reason: typo

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #162
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    The point is, the Leica M is exactly an M9 with an upgraded 24 mp sensor that has better performance concerning high iso noise and better corner performance with wides, and a much faster processor. It does not have to be anything else, if you don't push that button that is. And you don't have to push that button.
    Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
    all the best

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  13. #163
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    After eye surgery to remove a thick yellow nasty cataract, and a Toric lens to correct astigmatism my eyes are back to my youthful M glory days. Actual surgery took 12 minutes and was totally painless. Two weeks afterwards can nail OVF rangefinder focus on a black cat at midnight in a coal mine, wham!

    Viva La Leica!

    -Marc
    Hey - HOOORAAAY; I'm so pleased to hear it Marc - excellent news.
    all the very best

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #164
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I was not thinking of changing the Rf patch or anything different than what you see today. More like you hit that preview button it activates a projected image in the optical finder of what the sensor sees, ala live view inside but with the added focus points lit up of what is sharp by contrast. It's actually seeing what live view or EVF is seeing. In this case the external EVF would not be needed. When you put a R lens on it would activate the live view image inside if possible. The preview focus button is the activation of live view image in the optical finder. I'm not asking to take away what is in the optical finder. Just take the live image and project it in the path of the optical with a press of a button

  15. #165
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
    all the best
    Excellent points regarding the EVF versus external OVF. I'm so glad that I will be able to use my ZM 18 and 25 "normally".
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  16. #166
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Just think about it.. one can use tilt shift lenses on a M camera.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  17. #167
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
    all the best
    Agreed.

    IMO, this is exactly where I had hoped the M would go. 24 meg is about the limit I'd prefer to maintain the whole hand-held spontaneous gestalt of traditional rangefinder photography without do-dads like Image Stabilization.

    In a way, what Guy says is true ... an evolution of the M9 in terms of pure rangefinder photography ... which ain't all bad for those with a M9/M9P ... their camera wasn't invalidated and made super obsolete over-night.

    I will probably get the EVF, even though I may not use it much ... but it is a real candidate for use with my 21/1.4ASPH in low light, since it requires a clip-on anyway ... and the EVF also indicates "what you see is what you get" in truly challenging lighting situations (like flare, or getting a specific light balance in contrasty situations).

    Presumably, if Leica wants to keep some sense of longevity for their M, they will allow firmware updates to accommodate at least the next generation of EVF.

    I like the new naming convention if they keep it up. It will help add to the sense of longevity, at least psychologically. I drive a Volvo CX90 that is almost 8 years old and looks like one made 3 years ago. I've never felt out-dated in this vehicle because it has what I want in it and hasn't become dated looking. Even the new one looks similar, just smaller.

    -Marc
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  18. #168
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was not thinking of changing the Rf patch or anything different than what you see today. More like you hit that preview button it activates a projected image in the optical finder of what the sensor sees, ala live view inside but with the added focus points lit up of what is sharp by contrast. It's actually seeing what live view or EVF is seeing. In this case the external EVF would not be needed. When you put a R lens on it would activate the live view image inside if possible. The preview focus button is the activation of live view image in the optical finder. I'm not asking to take away what is in the optical finder. Just take the live image and project it in the path of the optical with a press of a button
    Hi Guy - I do understand what you're saying, but I think you underestimate the complications of it.

    1 it really does (of course) require a full hybrid EVF to achieve it.

    2 More than that (much more): it would need a cross reference to the actual field of view of the EVF, the lens, and the optical viewfinder, together with a complete parrallax correction mechanism to ensure that there is a proper match between them.

    I think it could only ever work with coded M lenses (where it would only be a luxury) - and even then I would have thought that an accurate correlation at all distances would be almost impossible to achieve.

    Worth mentioning that this is just me thinking off the top of my head.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  19. #169
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    No I know it's not a easy thing to do . Actually it's a idea that dates back to the M8 when I sat down with Stephan and we drew it out on a napkin. Good old days but anyway I think the technology is still not there yet to pull it off with quality projection and such. I'm not a engineer as we know but ideas like this are good as they lead into other things as well. The M was never perfect when it came to frame lines and viewing, we all can agree on that. This is certainly a heck of a lot better for sure. Lets face it we needed optical finders for wides that could not be seen inside. So not so far off than that. Now maybe by the time of release they can work on or something unique may pop up to even improve the EVF that they are talking about using. So lets not say we are happy yet but let's push the envelop here with Leica and let them know we want better so start working on it. We always have to keep asking for better solutions and keep folks thinking. Lets face it this came from who was it Epson, Olympus stock. Not a Leica designed item. Maybe it will change on release who knows. But you know me I hate settling and there is no perfect cam out there. Nikon is nice but no way in hell is it perfect. Nor is anything in MF which still after all these announcements A no one went CMOS B no one introduced a new back C no one improved there back. All we really got was camera tweaks which are great for Hassy, Phase, Leica but certainly light at that. Leica overall won 2012 Photokinia, Nikon D800 broke the barriers. Obviously more but a lot was left on the engineering floor as well.

    Have a nasty toothache and can't sleep. LOL I need improvement too. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  20. #170
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    We always have to keep asking for better solutions and keep folks thinking. Lets face it this came from who was it Epson, Olympus stock. Not a Leica designed item. Maybe it will change on release who knows.
    Hopefully there is also scope for a new and improved EVF in the future.

    I do quite agree with you - these things need talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But you know me I hate settling and there is no perfect cam out there. Nikon is nice but no way in hell is it perfect. Nor is anything in MF which still after all these announcements A no one went CMOS B no one introduced a new back C no one improved there back. All we really got was camera tweaks which are great for Hassy, Phase, Leica but certainly light at that. Leica overall won 2012 Photokinia, Nikon D800 broke the barriers. Obviously more but a lot was left on the engineering floor as well.
    I also think that Leica won Photokina, and who would have predicted that 5 years ago - it'll be interesting to see how images from the M will stack up against the extra MP on the D800 - personally I can't wait!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Have a nasty toothache and can't sleep. LOL I need improvement too. ROTFLMAO
    Hard luck - hope it get's better soon. I'm back at work for the first day in 3 weeks . . . boo!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  21. #171
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I'm with you on 90% of that but IS has one hidden benefit: with longer lenses it makes 10x zoom view EVF focussing much easier because of the removal of jiggling...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Agreed.

    IMO, this is exactly where I had hoped the M would go. 24 meg is about the limit I'd prefer to maintain the whole hand-held spontaneous gestalt of traditional rangefinder photography without do-dads like Image Stabilization.

    In a way, what Guy says is true ... an evolution of the M9 in terms of pure rangefinder photography ... which ain't all bad for those with a M9/M9P ... their camera wasn't invalidated and made super obsolete over-night.

    I will probably get the EVF, even though I may not use it much ... but it is a real candidate for use with my 21/1.4ASPH in low light, since it requires a clip-on anyway ... and the EVF also indicates "what you see is what you get" in truly challenging lighting situations (like flare, or getting a specific light balance in contrasty situations).

    Presumably, if Leica wants to keep some sense of longevity for their M, they will allow firmware updates to accommodate at least the next generation of EVF.

    I like the new naming convention if they keep it up. It will help add to the sense of longevity, at least psychologically. I drive a Volvo CX90 that is almost 8 years old and looks like one made 3 years ago. I've never felt out-dated in this vehicle because it has what I want in it and hasn't become dated looking. Even the new one looks similar, just smaller.

    -Marc
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #172
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    What a contrast ....last month it was the MONO ...all about getting back to the basics . A pure RF experience ..only black and white . A few small fast lenses in a small bag . Jump on the train and travel along thru Siberia . Critically sharp large enlargements . " We need smaller lenses ..not the Coke bottles " . Exhibits by the Magnum photographers in Paris .

    Capabilities that extend your potential (higher ISO to shoot available light) and even a crazy expensive world class new summicron . Dedication and appreciation of both the art and craft .....Leica Mono at the Leica Akademie . New exhibits at the Leica galleries world wide ..closer ties to the iconic photographers .

    Now ..fast forward to the new M ... CCD to CMOS ...and its all about using your R glass on a M body ? Really you want to use an enormous Leica R zoom on your M in stopped down mode (thats the marketing photo) . A slide on EVF designed for Olympus 4/3 gear (that costs more than the whole Olympus version including the camera ).

    Movies ..wow ..I can get an $7K body thats half as good as a 5D2 .

    Best one I heard was using LV to focus a Zeiss 15/2.8 ...so lets see I use the EVF to focus using focus peaking . Yes you can sure do that but serious what the heck are you photographing where this would be a common occurrence?

    The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).

    Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .

  23. #173
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    The R is in stop down mode. A crap , really. Been there done that have the gold T-shirt with Canon bodies no less.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  24. #174
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Seriously, Leica should have made another M version without the LV and video buttons and without the EVF port. It should be called M-P (as for purists) and sold for 10K as was previously rumored. You can always hack the firmware to get LV though
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  25. #175
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What a contrast ....last month it was the MONO ...all about getting back to the basics . A pure RF experience ..only black and white . A few small fast lenses in a small bag . Jump on the train and travel along thru Siberia . Critically sharp large enlargements . " We need smaller lenses ..not the Coke bottles " . Exhibits by the Magnum photographers in Paris .

    Capabilities that extend your potential (higher ISO to shoot available light) and even a crazy expensive world class new summicron . Dedication and appreciation of both the art and craft .....Leica Mono at the Leica Akademie . New exhibits at the Leica galleries world wide ..closer ties to the iconic photographers .

    Now ..fast forward to the new M ... CCD to CMOS ...and its all about using your R glass on a M body ? Really you want to use an enormous Leica R zoom on your M in stopped down mode (thats the marketing photo) . A slide on EVF designed for Olympus 4/3 gear (that costs more than the whole Olympus version including the camera ).

    Movies ..wow ..I can get an $7K body thats half as good as a 5D2 .

    Best one I heard was using LV to focus a Zeiss 15/2.8 ...so lets see I use the EVF to focus using focus peaking . Yes you can sure do that but serious what the heck are you photographing where this would be a common occurrence?

    The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).

    Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .

    Roger did someone steal your ID and post this?

    I'm kidding but I tend to agree. Just because its there it becomes a marketing tool. Make sure it's a useful tool.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  26. #176
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Hi Roger
    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).
    I think it's about all of these things - there aren't any samples yet, because they aren't ready yet (is this unreasonable?). If you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on the EVF, then don't - buy an Olympus one (I'm guessing it'll work, just as it does on the X2).

    Focus peaking will certainly allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass and improve close focusing . . . and focusing in low light . . in addition you get:

    1. much faster processing
    2. weather sealing
    3. better LCD for review
    4. Better high ISO
    5. higher pixel count

    . . . isn't this what everyone was asking for?

    If you don't want the other stuff - well then, don't use it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .
    Well . . . I occasionally like to do telephoto and macro - it seems to me that this allows me to do it with one, full frame, body - what's the grouch? Personally I prefer precise manual focusing on an EVF to an optical viewfinder anyway.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #177
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    This could be a winner depending on the evf view.
    Once I get my hands on one that should tell the tale pretty quickly.
    -bob

  28. #178
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Think we need to wait and see how the EVF implementation on the new M is working in real life.

    Personally I am happy about how this is solved in the M meanwhile. Was always proposing a built in hybrid finder, but meanwhile I think the 2 separate solutions make even more sense as each one can be optimized for its own strengths.

    I am looking forward to improve my speed with the M using the EVF with FP for very fast lenses and for the longer lenses as well, especially the 1.4/75 (one of my best lenses), the 2/90 APO and of course the 4/135 APO.

    Plus I might get the one or other R zoom lens and then be able to travel with a pretty small kit covering from 16 (WATE) to maybe 200 (4/80-200).

    This was never possible before with a RF and now it is, which is absolutely great news!

    PLUS - great they have chosen to "limit" the resolution to 24MP. Which is more than enough even for very demanding work. Else you need more take MFD or try around with the D800E which in combination with great glass (like Zeiss ZF) can deliver nicely (and very fast as well).

  29. #179
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,676
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Guy - I do understand what you're saying, but I think you underestimate the complications of it.

    1 it really does (of course) require a full hybrid EVF to achieve it.

    2 More than that (much more): it would need a cross reference to the actual field of view of the EVF, the lens, and the optical viewfinder, together with a complete parrallax correction mechanism to ensure that there is a proper match between them.

    I think it could only ever work with coded M lenses (where it would only be a luxury) - and even then I would have thought that an accurate correlation at all distances would be almost impossible to achieve.

    Worth mentioning that this is just me thinking off the top of my head.

    all the best
    After reading all of Guy's post (in this thread) we are of the same mind. I realize a start has to be made somewheres and excellent implementation of the EVF with the new M sounds like an excellent start. Yet for myself, the the whole raison d'Ítre of shooting with a Leica rangefinder camera is the viewfinder that's inside the camera and that one's eye never has to leave it, especially for those that do shoot for the decisive moment. Thats why I believe most had a love-hate relationship with external finders, especially that focusing then composing (as with ultra wide angles) became a 2 step process). At least with the EVF, one can do both, although its not quite the same as "simply and only" using the optical finder inside the camera.

    Pressing a button to activate some sort of electronic overlay inside the M optical viewfinder I realize may be overly expensive, complicated and the tech is not there for a smooth and cost effective solution at this time but Guy I believe is on the right track...that well down the road, I do hope they explore this possibility. I believe if it can be done in a way that when this electronic overlay (or hybrid arrangement) is switched "off", the optical viewfinder is the same as we've grown to love and simply with a push of a button, a hybrid type viewfinder is then activated. It's basically turned "on" for wide or long lenses or when a focusing aid (such as focus peaking) is desired. One never has to move their eye from the traditional rangefinder.

    I believe if this ultimately can be done in future iterations of the new M (a unified optical and electronic viewfinder), then many will look back on the current external implimenation and realize a unified viewfinder is a considerable step forward to the benefit and long standing relevancy to traditional rangefinder shooting.....simply with the advancement of no longer needing any types of external finders for wide or long glass and as an added bonus, an addtional type of focusing aid is available inside the optical/hybrid finder if desired. All this would be available inside the cameras own viewfinder!

    Jono, in your previous kind response (posting) to my question regarding the need for coded lenses (or menu input) with the extrenal EVF...I guess what I was thinking of was along the lines of this hypothetical intergrated viewfinder and indeed if such a hybrid viewfinder could be implemented, coding or menu input of each lens as you said, would then be required.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 20th September 2012 at 07:11.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #180
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    This could be a winner depending on the evf view.
    Once I get my hands on one that should tell the tale pretty quickly.
    -bob
    Here Bob looks pretty generic.

    Hands-on with the Leica M: A Numberless Top-of-the-Line Digital Rangefinder
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #181
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Well said Dave.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #182
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Dave,

    I do agree that I also would prefer ONE hybrid finder, if it is really perfect for both (optical & electronic image viewing and distance measurement), but as you said, this perfect technology (implementation) seems not to be there yet. And this is the reason I prefer the dual solution we see today.

    Peter
    Life is an ever changing journey
    http://photography.tomsu.eu/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_...tography/sets/
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  33. #183
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ....

    1. much faster processing
    2. weather sealing
    3. better LCD for review
    4. Better high ISO
    5. higher pixel count

    . . . isn't this what everyone was asking for?

    If you don't want the other stuff - well then, don't use it!

    ....
    I agree and finally put my name on the list. The onyl reason to put ifoff the list was if I will see any considrable disadvantage of the cmos-sensor or if I will run out of money until then.

  34. #184
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    I will eagerly await to hear any "disadvantages of a CMOS sensor".

  35. #185
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Roger

    I think it's about all of these things - there aren't any samples yet, because they aren't ready yet (is this unreasonable?). If you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on the EVF, then don't - buy an Olympus one (I'm guessing it'll work, just as it does on the X2).

    Focus peaking will certainly allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass and improve close focusing . . . and focusing in low light . . in addition you get:

    1. much faster processing
    2. weather sealing
    3. better LCD for review
    4. Better high ISO
    5. higher pixel count

    . . . isn't this what everyone was asking for?

    If you don't want the other stuff - well then, don't use it!



    Well . . . I occasionally like to do telephoto and macro - it seems to me that this allows me to do it with one, full frame, body - what's the grouch? Personally I prefer precise manual focusing on an EVF to an optical viewfinder anyway.

    all the best
    Jono

    OK Leica has a major major event ...Photokina 2012 ..the big one ..new M . And the most critical attributes of the new product aren t ready ? Nothing on the performance of the new sensor ..because its pre production ? Was this a big surprise to anyone . Incredible . World Press available ..massive coverage and we talk about EVF (thats no better than the sub $1000 M4/3 cameras use ..oh yes its the same one ). How about that new rubber hand grip ?

    The move from CCD to CMOS is THE story ..so where are the samples to evaluate ?

    Here are my key points :

    1. CCD to CMOS is the story and it will be months before we can even decide if its desirable to "upgrade " because the development team missed the deadline.

    2. Updating the M from 2006 technology is great ....I am excited about the new screen ,the new battery , the faster,larger buffer , the ability to use larger cards and probably a few I missed . These make the camera much more usable .

    3. LV is an highly desirable new capability because it allows for critical focus off the sensor . A given on any current CMOS body . EVF and focus peaking useful capabilities . Credit given but Jeez thats not the story of the new M .

    4. The new "R" solution . Please . Has anyone pointed out what a lack of an auto diaphragm means in real shooting . I focus at f1.4 and then I stop down to f5.6 to expose by turning the aperture on the lens .

    I can t really think of another consumer product where the essence of the value proposition can be so fully distorted by talking about the features of the add ons . Its always been about the small superb form,the wonderful lenses , the CRF experience and the beautiful IQ .

    They did a beautiful job with the Mono introduction but on the new M ... we have no basis other than our blind devotion (speaking of me) to the brand .

    So when I see long discussions about the new "R" ..and not any on the transition from CCD to CMOS ...then I add a few facts and a point of view . Nothing more than that .

    Roger

    Just to be clear ..the problem is we don t know anything about the change from CCD to CMOS and the other discussions are a little too much hype .

  36. #186
    Senior Member Hosermage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,034
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Roger, I agree. Nothing else matter if CMOS isn't at least on par with CCD IQ. But as you say, since there are nothing to examine at this time, we'll have to trust that Leica knows that, and what we can talk about is all the other stuff, with "if the IQ is good" echo in the back of our minds.

    Edit: btw, I hope Leica takes the time to get it really right before they release any samples since I'm not in a hurry to part with my M9
    David Young
    My journey into Leica: LeicaLux.com

  37. #187
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post



    4. The new "R" solution . Please . Has anyone pointed out what a lack of an auto diaphragm means in real shooting . I focus at f1.4 and then I stop down to f5.6 to expose by turning the aperture on the lens .
    That is absolutely inaccurate. You focus at working aperture, and both peaking and magnified view will allow you to focus very precisely, even compensating for any focus shift that many large aperture lenses suffer from.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  38. #188
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    That is absolutely inaccurate. You focus at working aperture, and both peaking and magnified view will allow you to focus very precisely, even compensating for any focus shift that many large aperture lenses suffer from.
    This could eventuelly succeed with camera on a tripod and slow work, not for quick photography or moving subjects.
    Do you need an M and R lenses to photography as with a view camera ?
    I am sure this new M will work, like a swiss knife.

  39. #189
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Roger et altera!

    I do not doubt a minute that today's CMOS - especially the one from the new M will be superior to the M8 and M9 CCDs. Simply because CCD reached the end of further refinement, whereas CMOS matured over the past 6 years. So much that I doubt any CCD can hold up against CMOS solutions from Sony and Leica at least.

    WRT other changes, these needed to come and be implemented, otherwise no matter if CCD or CMOS they would not have sold too much new Ms in the future. Life View is a must today and opens big new applications to the M - and I am NOT talking about video at all.

    I have high confidence that Leica have done and are doing their homework. They gained all this digital expertise over the past many years and meanwhile they start playing the instrument pretty well - finally we see Maestro in another camera as the S and more will follow (think X-series). Which proves where they have come so far.

    But if you like and prefer so, stay with the old CCD solutions or get the M-E which is still the "old" M9 and you will be happy. No one really forces anyone to use such a revolutionary design as the new M

  40. #190
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    But how are they refining the CMOS? There is some speculation that ISO is being improved over color accuracy which is not actually an improvement but a compromise. Certainly the money is there to invest in CMOS. But Pentax have shown the CCD can be equal to a point with CMOS. There is still room for CCDs to grow.

    BTW, I don't think there are any special qualities to a CCD over a CMOS--both pixels are color blind and if they use the same Bayer array, then the color output is identical. Where CMOS is making great strides is in noise and the ability to control individual photosites as well as including other features on a chip like phase detection.

  41. #191
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,930
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ...
    Personally I am happy about how this is solved in the M meanwhile. Was always proposing a built in hybrid finder, but meanwhile I think the 2 separate solutions make even more sense as each one can be optimized for its own strengths. ...
    +1

    I already know exactly how I'll use this camera. And have all the lenses I want for it. I just need the M body and a spare battery, and I'm set.

    21, 25, 28, 35, 40, 50 ... rangefinder
    50 macro, fast 85, 105 macro, 200 macro, 400 macro ... EVF
    90/4, 135/4.5 ... rangefinder or EVF

    A compendium body. The lenses above are an amalgam of Leica, Minolta, Voigtlander, and Nikkor RF and SLR lenses. My favorites from all the years, and a couple of new favorites. :-)

  42. #192
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bangkok
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Biglou View Post
    This could eventuelly succeed with camera on a tripod and slow work, not for quick photography or moving subjects.
    Do you need an M and R lenses to photography as with a view camera ?
    I am sure this new M will work, like a swiss knife.

    I can assure you my Ricoh GXR M mount has never seen a tripod in her life. I shoot all the time at working aperture, handheld, and about 60-40 ratio of focus peaking to magnified view.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  43. #193
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Biglou View Post
    This could eventuelly succeed with camera on a tripod and slow work, not for quick photography or moving subjects.
    Do you need an M and R lenses to photography as with a view camera ?
    I am sure this new M will work, like a swiss knife.
    The techniques are different and the usability will vary based on the type of subject that the photography is after . The lure of a SLR (from the beginning ) was the ability to really see the subject ..the brightness and contrast of the viewfinder was a major consideration .

    The debate between the RF users and the SLR was always about who could SEE better . The SLR showed exactly what you would get even to the point of viewing DOF . The RF often gave a broader perspective ..outside the frame ...and could be superior in developing complex compositions . In both cases it was an absolute requirement to have excellent eyesight (corrected OK ).

    Add in AF ...works and doesn t work . I shoot a D4 with Nikon G primes ...thats it a totally different league for accuracy of AF and still when I use a wide angle I check the focus on the screen to be sure the sensor point wasn t misplaced .

    Now lets try any EVF in this class ( I understand the newer A99 might have the accuracy ) . Using a 135APO and 50 1.4 asph on a NEX 7 ..i tested to about 500 captures in all types of light . The slower the lens and the more I stopped down the grainer the screen looked . So I shot primarily wide open from a fishing pier near and far . Focus peaking on a Nex 7 was not nearly precise enough for the 135apo ..it would peak and I could miss the subject entirely at about 200FT . Zooming in did really help but I would have to practice a lot more do this on every shot . The 50 1.4asph was so much better ..the screen was cleaner ,the focus peaking very accurate at 1.4 and it was fast . But I had no visual confirmation that I had the subject precisely ..just the shimmering of the area in focus . It was great in dim light for sure .

    I am not saying that FP isn t valuable and certainly a compliment to the RF....just that it is not a fair statement to call the M ..the NEW R solution . If you are happy focusing and VIEWING at F5.6 you are correct you can definitely make that work .

  44. #194
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Roger et altera!

    I do not doubt a minute that today's CMOS - especially the one from the new M will be superior to the M8 and M9 CCDs. Simply because CCD reached the end of further refinement, whereas CMOS matured over the past 6 years. So much that I doubt any CCD can hold up against CMOS solutions from Sony and Leica at least.

    WRT other changes, these needed to come and be implemented, otherwise no matter if CCD or CMOS they would not have sold too much new Ms in the future. Life View is a must today and opens big new applications to the M - and I am NOT talking about video at all.

    I have high confidence that Leica have done and are doing their homework. They gained all this digital expertise over the past many years and meanwhile they start playing the instrument pretty well - finally we see Maestro in another camera as the S and more will follow (think X-series). Which proves where they have come so far.

    But if you like and prefer so, stay with the old CCD solutions or get the M-E which is still the "old" M9 and you will be happy. No one really forces anyone to use such a revolutionary design as the new M
    The M CMOS IQ and imaging characteristics remains to be seen, and I believe we should be open-minded and a little patient about it to start, since it takes time to learn the shooting techniques and post work.

    I do not agree that CCD has reach the end of the line in terms of IQ improvements yet ... Dalsa has recently announced a large CCD with improved photographic imaging characteristics.

    Keep in mind, I'm not talking about extremes here, CMOS has proven to be more effective for high ISOs, but in general I still see nothing from any current CMOS camera that supports the notion that CMOS has pulled ahead of CCDs for image characteristics ... the creative aspect of look and feel.

    That said, I'm sure the M CMOS will deliver a unique look in concert with the lenses ... from there on, it is simply a subjective call not an absolute.

    -Marc

  45. #195
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The techniques are different and the usability will vary based on the type of subject that the photography is after . The lure of a SLR (from the beginning ) was the ability to really see the subject ..the brightness and contrast of the viewfinder was a major consideration .

    The debate between the RF users and the SLR was always about who could SEE better . The SLR showed exactly what you would get even to the point of viewing DOF . The RF often gave a broader perspective ..outside the frame ...and could be superior in developing complex compositions . In both cases it was an absolute requirement to have excellent eyesight (corrected OK ).

    Add in AF ...works and doesn t work . I shoot a D4 with Nikon G primes ...thats it a totally different league for accuracy of AF and still when I use a wide angle I check the focus on the screen to be sure the sensor point wasn t misplaced .

    Now lets try any EVF in this class ( I understand the newer A99 might have the accuracy ) . Using a 135APO and 50 1.4 asph on a NEX 7 ..i tested to about 500 captures in all types of light . The slower the lens and the more I stopped down the grainer the screen looked . So I shot primarily wide open from a fishing pier near and far . Focus peaking on a Nex 7 was not nearly precise enough for the 135apo ..it would peak and I could miss the subject entirely at about 200FT . Zooming in did really help but I would have to practice a lot more do this on every shot . The 50 1.4asph was so much better ..the screen was cleaner ,the focus peaking very accurate at 1.4 and it was fast . But I had no visual confirmation that I had the subject precisely ..just the shimmering of the area in focus . It was great in dim light for sure .

    I am not saying that FP isn t valuable and certainly a compliment to the RF....just that it is not a fair statement to call the M ..the NEW R solution . If you are happy focusing and VIEWING at F5.6 you are correct you can definitely make that work .
    I do not find the difference between SLRs and Rangefinders to be solely as you describe Roger.

    The overwhelming aspect of a rangefinder for me is that it forces concentration on the content ... what the photo is about, not what it looks like.
    Which leans toward a certain type of photography and away from others. To that end, you see no effect of wide angles, or long lenses, no DOF, only the subject matter to be dealt with using emotionally based anticipatory timing honed with practice looking, seeing and feeling. Less distractions from directly connecting with the subject. Others are sure to disagree, and I say shoot with what you feel comfortable with and I'll do the same.

    So, except for a few rare instances I feel zero need for an EVF, or Live View when shooting an M ... nice that you can for those occasional times, but I wouldn't have cared less if they had not been there.

    -Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #196
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I will eagerly await to hear any "disadvantages of a CMOS sensor".
    Maybe not a disadvantage but so far I have not owned any cmos-camera (including 5d/d3x/A900 for example) where I liked the IQ as much as that of the ccd-cameras I have owned/own (digital Sinar MF-back, S2, M8, M9,MM)
    Is the IQ better? I cant say-but I know I prefer it.

  47. #197
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    " I am not saying that FP isn t valuable and certainly a compliment to the RF....just that it is not a fair statement to call the M ..the NEW R solution . If you are happy focusing and VIEWING at F5.6 you are correct you can definitely make that work . "

    Your experience validates what i was anticipating, possible use but not as convenient and universal as some would think.

  48. #198
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Maybe not a disadvantage but so far I have not owned any cmos-camera (including 5d/d3x/A900 for example) where I liked the IQ as much as that of the ccd-cameras I have owned/own (digital Sinar MF-back, S2, M8, M9,MM)
    Is the IQ better? I cant say-but I know I prefer it.
    If you look at a system as a whole thing, you have not used Leica lenses on the CMOS sensors (NEX-7 is APS-C, discount it) and other system lenses on the CCD sensored cams. So,...

  49. #199
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter FL/Atlanta GA
    Posts
    2,279
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Roger et altera!

    I do not doubt a minute that today's CMOS - especially the one from the new M will be superior to the M8 and M9 CCDs. Simply because CCD reached the end of further refinement, whereas CMOS matured over the past 6 years. So much that I doubt any CCD can hold up against CMOS solutions from Sony and Leica at least.

    WRT other changes, these needed to come and be implemented, otherwise no matter if CCD or CMOS they would not have sold too much new Ms in the future. Life View is a must today and opens big new applications to the M - and I am NOT talking about video at all.

    I have high confidence that Leica have done and are doing their homework. They gained all this digital expertise over the past many years and meanwhile they start playing the instrument pretty well - finally we see Maestro in another camera as the S and more will follow (think X-series). Which proves where they have come so far.

    But if you like and prefer so, stay with the old CCD solutions or get the M-E which is still the "old" M9 and you will be happy. No one really forces anyone to use such a revolutionary design as the new M
    Thomas

    This was not my point ..CCD or CMOS . The existing CCD set the standard for FF image quality when the M9 was introduced. NOt so much that the resolution was better but that it produced a color fidelity and tone separtion ..when matched with the M lens ..set the std for most die hard M users .

    Time marches on and the NEW is presented as the best M ever with a new CMOS sensor that allows all the latest gadgets . Is the new sensor better ..no one knows because they weren t ready for Photokina . Do we have any examples where a similar size CMOS is better than the same size CCD?

    Do you know of any existing 25mp cmos sensor thats better than the M9 ?

    Leica now gets digital ..really ? How long did it take to get the S2 color right after the spat with Phase ? 6months ? Now I have a new sensor supplier ...with what kind of track record? E.g. This isnt Dalsa .

    I am not discounting the desirable capabiities of evf,lv,video ...mirrorless focus peaking etc.. But unlike the Mono where everthing was professionally compared...the New M is an unknown .

    Just trying to keep this as a balanced persective .

  50. #200
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

    "Just trying to keep this as a balanced perspective."

    Good luck with that.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •