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Thread: M or A7r

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    M or A7r

    I have a Sony A7r on preorder with Amazon and is wondering how many people are going to try to switch from a Leica M to a Sony A7/r? I did not like the M 240 as much as the M9 but eventually got used to it and feel comfortable. I like the RF in the M more than the M9. The ability to use EVF is great as it opens endless possibilities with different type of lenses. So with the Sony, the only thing I will be missing is the RF, the simplicity of a Leica M body and possibly the nice shutter sound. However, Sony does have a much better EVF, seems to have great sensor and produce awesome IQ. It also has the option of AF. I wonder if I will get used to the menu of the Sony. But at a fraction of the cost, I decided to dump the M body first, switch over the Sony and when the M body finally dropped in price, maybe go back to it. Anyone else switching?

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    Re: M or A7r

    I am not sure of many of your reasoning. If M body drops in price in the future, so will the A7R but much more dramatically. One of the reasons general public is disgusted with the Leica name is not the Hermes or white elephant versions but this non chalent "fraction of a cost" talk. The A7R is a lot of money for a lot of people.

    It is quite likely most of the M lenses will not be stellar (at least not for the price) on the A7R as well. As a result, their prices are going to go down dramatically. Check ebay.de to get an idea of where the prices are heading.

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    Re: M or A7r

    I have no desire to switch. They are very different beasts.

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    Re: M or A7r

    I decided to take a chance. Sold my M9 and ordered A7R. I know it won't be as enjoyable to use as my M9, but I expect the sensor performance to make the swap worthwhile to me. I also expect that my two M mount lenses (35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/1.5 Nokton) will perform well on the A7R sensor. If the Sony is unsatisfying, I expect that I'll be able to find another used M9 to buy. Or perhaps the new M.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Buy one of my M's. I have ordered an a7r.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Ordered an A7r but keeping my lovely chrome M9-P.
    For some reason the M left me cold right from the beginning.
    Perhaps the next M iteration kindles a spark again ...

    For now I'm very exited about the A7r

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: M or A7r

    Well, I ordered an M over a year ago. I could now get it any time I want.
    However, I cooled considerably due to its many QA problems.
    So I am keeping my M9 for good. I seem to be buying but never selling.
    Of course, I give photo gear to my kids once I haven't used it in awhile.
    I really like my D800E and its 36 MP FF sensor.
    I ordered the A7R primarily for my Leica R lenses.
    However, I wouldn't be disappointed if some of my M lenses including the WATE worked well on the A7R.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: M or A7r

    glad I never upgraded to the M. but I think you are making a hasty decision. You won't know how your Leica lenses do on the A7r. I doubt they will be as good as the native sony lenses. I might get the A7r as a color back up to my Monochrom, but never instead of it.

    Just buy it and try both, and write a review for us. You'll be able to sell either one with minimum loss in the first few weeks anyway

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, I ordered an M over a year ago. I could now get it any time I want.
    However, I cooled considerably due to its many QA problems.
    So I am keeping my M9 for good. I seem to be buying but never selling.
    Of course, I give photo gear to my kids once I haven't used it in awhile.
    I really like my D800E and its 36 MP FF sensor.
    I ordered the A7R primarily for my Leica R lenses.
    However, I wouldn't be disappointed if some of my M lenses including the WATE worked well on the A7R.
    hmm... 800E and M9? your kids are LUCKY
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    Re: M or A7r

    I think it is far to early to say whether it will be the A7 or A7R that will work best with the normal WA Leica RF lenses that most people use.

    Yes there are reports that the WATE works well on the A7R, but that isn't a 'normal' lens. And in the very few tests done with normal wide's, like the 35or 28mm Summicron, the results aren't spectacular, but equally nobody knows if it's the photographer that isn't 'spectacular'.

    I'm not in a chase for megapixels, just something to replace my M9 for colour work (my MM is still my baby). But I definitely am not guessing at this stage, I want to see a trusted tester show me what happens with both the A7 and A7R with the lenses I use. My sense at the moment is that the A7R may be disappointing, but the game isn't over by a long way.

    Steve

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    Re: M or A7r

    The M is a very solid camera of superb build. The number of quality complaints threads we had in the forums after introduction were a fraction of the ones we had over the M8 and M9 and are at the same level or less than the complaints threads after introduction we see in the Canon, Nikon, Sony forums.
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    Re: M or A7r

    In my case I have not much interest in the A7.
    I have used a Nex7 for some time and some other mirror less EVF cameras and I just prefer the rangefinder/optical viewfinder.(by the way thats also the reason why I barely use the vf2 on my Leica M)
    As sonn as one focuses manual mid range focal lengths the rangefinder is the best system for me because you can see the whole frame and still you can focus at the same time.
    The next thing is that I like the user interface of the M (or M9) a lot.
    And the third thing is that I have all those beautiful lenses where I know they work well on the M.
    If one prefers EVF the Sony is maybe an interesting option, and of course price would also be an argument for the Sony. (this could already look different if you look how cameras and lenses hold their value).
    If I were you I would go to a store and handle both for 2 hours and see which user interface and viewfinder concept you prefer.
    M9 vs M…you could also just sell the M and get a used M9.
    Personally I feel the same about M9 vs M but I think I will get used to the M and find out how to treat images in post. I like the speed, high ISO, shutter of the new M.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    The M is a very solid camera of superb build. The number of quality complaints threads we had in the forums after introduction were a fraction of the ones we had over the M8 and M9 and are at the same level or less than the complaints threads after introduction we see in the Canon, Nikon, Sony forums.
    There could be a few reasons:

    1. The M isn't available (see K-H's post).

    2. FWIW, my A7R is going to come with a 30 day money back guarantee and a free 3 year service package. It is a pretty sweet for me.

    Having said that, if I could afford and sustain a M system with a set of atrociously priced modern M lenses, I would not think about A7/7R. It is the shutter that would make the decision for me.

    Also, like K-H, I do not sell stuff easily. For a M user that is simply not tenable.

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    Re: M or A7r

    If my experience with an NEX-7 is any indication (and it probably isn't) of how Leica glass will perform on the A7r the 50's & 75's will be excellent. My Zeiss 21 (F mount) was the only WA I could depend on and the crop frame sensor most likely had something to do with it.
    I would imagine either Lloyd Chambers or Reid Reviews will be first to have Leica M lenses tests on the A7r online. Both men are very thorough.
    Last edited by JohnBrew; 9th November 2013 at 05:52.

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    Re: M or A7r

    I am not interested at all in the A7 but very much so in the 36 MP of the A7R.
    A couple months ago my oldest son was visiting with the 12 MP Nikon D3 he now has.
    That used to be my favorite "Pro" level DSLR camera with excellent high ISO performance.
    It handles beautifully and shoots up to 10, even 11 frames per second.
    We used the new Nikkor 80-400 lens on the D3 and D800E to take photos of hummingbirds.
    That was indeed a revelation in terms of the level of detail a 36 MP sensor offers!

    A few days ago I shot some WA images with the D800E + 14-24/2.8 and 17-35/2.8 lens.
    I also shot the same scene with the 18 MP M9 + WATE 16-18-21/4.
    The WATE seems to be the somewhat better lens, especially in the extreme corners.
    However, after processing the raw images with CS6 and Nik the greater level of detail of the 36 MP sensor is quite attractive.
    So, provided the WATE performs well on the A7R, I finally could get 36 MP images with it.

    As stated before, the main reason for me to get the A7R are my Leica R lenses.
    So far I have been only shooting them on NEXs and OM-Ds, E-M5 and E-M1.
    I am really looking forward to find out how they perform on a FF camera.
    Of course, one could leitax them and shoot on the D800E.
    But that would create complications when using the R lenses with extenders.
    I don't want to do that. With the A7R they can be used with simple adapters.
    Originally I wanted to get an M240 for use with the R lenses as well.
    However, the M240 doesn't seem to have left the beta testing stage yet.
    Its EVF performance is also less than ideal.
    So, I will give the A7R the preference for now.

    Having gone with my M9 through lots of trouble before a Panasonic Gold card turned it into a useable camera I am really not interested to become again an involuntary beta tester for Leica with an M240.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: M or A7r

    I'm not sure where this megapixel and technology race will end. It is tiresome for me as a consumer to try and keep up with the race. With the D800e and M sensors I already have a set of tools that far surpass anything I've every owned before or even dreamed of owning 5-10 years back - near medium format in smaller bodies and in something like the M it's miraculous if one stops to think about it. I think I will stop and breathe for a while and just enjoy photography and not worry about where the world is hurtling towards.

    Yes, the A7R is miraculous too in its own way, but the only reason to have an M is for the rangefinder experience. Mirror-less is a wave that's going to continue. I for one, love my M and am keeping it. For me in a sea of change it's a relative anchor. If you bought an M9 early and used it then ~4k to trade it in is not bad at all. Having said all that, I may get another small body as a backup and autofocus solution, not to use my M lenses with necessarily.
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    Re: M or A7r

    After thinking about this a while, I don't see the A7 or A7r so much as a vehicle to use my M-mount lenses with as a good platform for my Nikkor and Leica R lenses. I feel m-mount lenses work best on sensors/cameras designed specifically for them.

    Only reason I haven't ordered one yet is that I just recently got the Olympus E-M1 and am enjoying it too much to have time for another camera just yet. Give it half a year (and selling off a few thousand dollars of other gear) and I'll likely add one to my kit. :-)

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    Re: M or A7r

    M9. I'm sorry, what was the question again?
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    Re: M or A7r

    For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

    I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

    I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

    More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

    Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

    Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

    Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

    While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

    If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

    I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

    I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

    More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

    Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

    Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

    Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

    While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

    If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
    Pretty sad post indeed.

    Lou, If an A7 or A7R monochrome is available, would you give up your MM?
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    Re: M or A7r

    If photography is a hobby, it is for pleasure.
    Sony A7 (R) is not a rangefinder, therefore, they are different cameras although the A7R may produce more than enough for image quality. The same as the Nikon D800E.
    I will certainly keep my M and have ordered the A7R.
    I've never had the camera I've enjoyed using as the "M" and my Tech Cams.

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    Re: M or A7r

    They're different products for sure but I don't think the differences in being able to get a great shot are as night and day as some suggest. Yes using a rangefinder is different but ultimately I think it's human nature to adapt to different situation (i.e. the learning curve.) As to which is "best" well that's a personal decision that no one can really make for you.

    For me I still prefer the M9 to the M240 by a really large margin (in reality the M240 is technically more advanced) but the main benefit of the M240 for me was the possibility to adapt selected R lenses for my limited telephoto work while also allowing me to get rid of my SLR completely. For that duty, the A7/r seems like an infinitely better option as there will be native telephoto lenses and also the ability to adapt M/R lenses (or just about any lens for that matter) is a huge convenience for me. It's less expensive than an M240 and I like what I see from the handful of decent shots on the internet more than some of the stuff I've seen out of the M240 early on. Again these are from JPEG's so who knows how good the shots could be. Now I believe the A7 will be less taxing on lenses than the A7r based on resolution alone but for the ability to print really large (or crop heavily) the A7r is the one I prefer.

    All that being said - there's no way I'm giving up my M9-P but I will make room for the A7r (and possibly an A7 as well) in my camera bag. If you HAVE to have a rangefinder then there's only one team playing that game but if you can adapt to EVF, a tiltable screen, AF, and want to hand pick choice lenses based on character from multiple systems then mirror less is worth a try.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Pretty sad post indeed.

    Lou, If an A7 or A7R monochrome is available, would you give up your MM?
    Hello Vivek

    Probably not at first. They probably would not even have to bring out a monochrome A7r or a7 since conversions are so easy today and with SEFEX Pro even my RX-1 images convert beautifully and most cannot tell the image was not shot with the MM. I feel that after working many days with only the MM has often made my color work better as I seem to see colors better than ever.
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    Re: M or A7r

    It's hard for me to imagine any dedicated M shooter feeling content with the Sony as a replacement system. Regardless of specs, it's just a different experience. I tried it, yet still hang out here in the Leica forum, wistful for my M9.

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    Re: M or A7r

    The new Sony offerings in practical use don't seem substantially different than Fuji and their X series.
    Yes Sony is full frame and higher resolution, but the lens lineup is so-so.
    Looking at how slowly Sony grew the NEX lens line historically, who knows when they will have the lens offering you may want.

    Fuji at least offers a camera with a window finder when you want it, has a fantastic lens lineup of fast primes, and has shown a commitment, I think, to the kind of photographers that like Leicas.

    At the moment, this may be yet another strand of spaghetti on the wall for Sony.. we'll see if it sticks. In style, substance, form factor and lens offering.. Fuji has done a great job. How these Sonys perform remains to be seen.

    I say this as someone who has sold off my Fuji stuff, reluctantly, as I now have an M240.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by sjg284 View Post
    The new Sony offerings in practical use don't seem substantially different than Fuji and their X series.
    Yes Sony is full frame and higher resolution, but the lens lineup is so-so.
    Looking at how slowly Sony grew the NEX lens line historically, who knows when they will have the lens offering you may want.

    Fuji at least offers a camera with a window finder when you want it, has a fantastic lens lineup of fast primes, and has shown a commitment, I think, to the kind of photographers that like Leicas.

    At the moment, this may be yet another strand of spaghetti on the wall for Sony.. we'll see if it sticks. In style, substance, form factor and lens offering.. Fuji has done a great job. How these Sonys perform remains to be seen.

    I say this as someone who has sold off my Fuji stuff, reluctantly, as I now have an M240.
    I agree wholeheartedly about your statement about Sony and their "apprehension" to ever build out a complete system before moving to a new "fascination." I think the majority of people interested in the A7/r aren't looking solely for a new system. It seems the majority of the enthusiasts on various forums are looking at it as a "35m FF digital back" to compliment their primary FF systems. I'm sure most are looking closely at the native lenses as well to "cherry pick" the best ones but it seems that logic is to mostly be to fill in the gaps of the main system or for AF benefits.

    Perhaps there will be a nice collection of native FE lenses in time as 15 were announced on the roadmap (not including the manual Zeiss lenses announced afterwards or the Rokinon ones.) Time will tell but it's an exciting product at least for those wanting a "35mm FF digital back."
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

    I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

    I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

    More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

    Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

    Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

    Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

    While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

    For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

    If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
    in which way you feel the new M is Controlling the situation and not you (compared to the M9)? I use the new M exact the same way like the M9. I admit that I prefer the M9 color in some way.

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    Re: M or A7r

    I loved digital Ms since my first M8... With all "lemonade" it came with. I enjoyed as much then, as I enjoy my new M and my M9 now. Using optical RF is different than anything else. Period. M lenses are 100% match for M bodies. Keeping both M9 and M for a long run. Planning getting more of M lenses (it takes time due to substantial cost as we all know...).
    Sony? They are coming to the party! No doubt. They will take over eventually... Just as they did with professional video/broadcasting gear. I love my PMW-F3, and use it with great pleasure. But new Sony (highly "disposable") digital cameras don't offer (to me) anything new that I would have to trade my Nikon and Leica for Sony. Sorry...
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by sisoje View Post
    M lenses are 100% match for M bodies.
    Not all, as we also know.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not all, as we also know.
    I am not after (few) of those. All my M lenses are great on my M9 and M. It is not a flashy or overly priced set. Just a ideal (for me) kit to use with Leica digital RF. as a full time photographer, I am not in to the "hobby" of changing my gear with every new "summer and winter collection" or after shooting brick walls. I try to have balance between the budget and how profitable (usable) purchase will be AND the "enjoyment factor"...

    To illustrate, here is my RF kit:

    VC15
    ZM21
    Leica 35/2.0 asph.
    Leica 2.8/2.8 pre asph.
    Leica 50/1.4 pre asph.
    Leica 75/2.5 Summarit

    Planning to:

    Leica 90/2.8 Elmarit
    Leica Tri-Elmar 16/18/21

    I really have no need for any new mirrorless gadget on the market (or soon to be). I enjoy optical RF on my digital Leicas, and if the job requires different kind of tool, I go for my D800 (being that stills or video).

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    in which way you feel the new M is Controlling the situation and not you (compared to the M9)? I use the new M exact the same way like the M9. I admit that I prefer the M9 color in some way.
    My shooting flow with R lenses is interrupted by either the switch off/switch on steps necessary to keep it running without lockup or when lockup occurs due to overheating while using the EVF. This reported all over the internet even with M owners who do not use R lenses.

    Furthermore, my shooting flow with WA M lenses where I want framing confirmation by using the EVF is also interrupted due to either lockup or not having the camera on (while using the off/on manual method) when that great shot develops. Never had with the M9 nor with the Monochrom now.

    So due to its limitations while using the EVF the M is controlling the situation due to poor electronics or whatever causes it to be unobtrusive to the user where you just shoot and not worry about the camera or camera malfunctions.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Not a chance I would trade the new M for the Sony A7R . The new M is about continuing the benefits of RF viewing and focusing not at all about becoming a new all purpose mirrorless solution . It does everything better than the M9 except for the CCD verse CMOS look ....the gap is closing but its still not there yet .

    I have seen thousands of files taken with Leica R lenses on a D800E and I would call the differences between those files and the new M with Leica M lenses ..too close to call. I do think the new M has slightly better color depth but a skilled post processor could make them look identical .

    My second choice is the Nikon DSLR where I use the converted R lenses on two D800E bodies and my long Nikkor telephotos on a D4 .

    No doubt the 36MP sensor in a small multipurpose body is attractive ...but there was nothing else that I liked about the A7R ....handling,viewing,focusing ...not close to the Nikon DSLR . Its a nice build quality and appears to be a good solution for many photographers ...it just isn t a great fit for me.
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    Re: M or A7r

    By sheer chance, the Sony rep was at the store today when I stopped in to buy "yet-another-G**D**-bag" ... It was with great distaste and annoyance that I realized the E-M1 fitted with the battery grip and ZD 11-22 or Summilux-R 50 lenses simply doesn't fit in any of the bags I currently owned. I hate buying bags. So much promise, so little actual value. Most are crap. The guys at the store understand, and helped. I came away with the ThinkTankPhoto Citywalker 10, which looks like it won't piss me off too much or too soon, and I've now got a way to carry the E-M1 to go shooting with it and more than just a minimal setup.

    But I digress. And sorry if I use the E-M1 as a basis of comparison ...

    The Sony guy was there with the A7 (and I think the A7r but I didn't bother to hunt that one up after I played with the A7). It's small, it's light. The viewfinder is good (not quite as good as the E-M1, but quite good). The controls are, um, a bit simplistic and clumsy compared to the E-M1. The menus are Sony stuff, which is quite different from Oly stuff. With a 35mm lens on it, it handles ok. The A7 build feels good, not quite the superb tank like feel of the E-M1 but good enough ... I understand the A7r feels better and is more robustly built. The shutter is pretty loud (not quite an Nikon FM2 but close), the responsiveness is good if not up to the Oly standard. The body worked all right with the slightly larger zoom lens on it but I'd want a grip with it for larger, heavier lenses. No image stabilization in the body .. you get used to having that quickly and it is missed when gone.

    Of course, I didn't have a Leica-R to Sony E mount adapter to try out my Summilux-R 50 on it, but my feeling is that one of these bodies with a Novoflex adapter would make a good replacement for a Leica R body, keeping the original format. I'd want the grip for anything longer than the 90mm for sure.

    I'm happy with what I bought. Maybe in the future I'll nip an A7r body for the R lenses. Maybe.

    G

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    Re: M or A7r

    OPS I meant to indicate that the D800E example was relevant because ..it too uses a Sony 36Mp sensor . Of course the in camera process would be different ..but a Leica R lens on a D800E gives preview of what you might expect using the same lens on a A7r . Image quality is excellent as I suspect will be the case with the A7R .

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly about your statement about Sony and their "apprehension" to ever build out a complete system before moving to a new "fascination." ….
    Just like Leica with their vanity S launch ?

    ……………….. Chris

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    OPS I meant to indicate that the D800E example was relevant because ..it too uses a Sony 36Mp sensor . Of course the in camera process would be different ..but a Leica R lens on a D800E gives preview of what you might expect using the same lens on a A7r . Image quality is excellent as I suspect will be the case with the A7R .
    According to the Sony guy at the store today, the A7r sensor and D800E sensor are completely different sensor families. No idea whether he was just blowing wind.

    G

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    Re: M or A7r

    I've been reading all the threads on the A7/r, right now I am more interested as to who keeps their Sony rather than who orders one.
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    Re: M or A7r

    M or A7R? What is to compare? For me, I can shoot the best glass in the world, simple non-cluttered style of shooting and produce the best images of any 35mm camera-system. What me worry? Nah, you guys chase rainbows (or purple corners), I'm content right here with what I got. Let Sony try and leap-frog Leica image quality and I hope they do, more to look forward to on the new M.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    Just like Leica with their vanity S launch ?

    ……………….. Chris
    Nah more like when Leica dropped the R system and created the S. I'd be pissed if I were strictly an R user on some level but the A7/r seems like a better R solution than the M240 is for people that didn't already own a M.

    Sorta off topic but the S is a great move for Leica as MF is sort of an open market for the taking in the future provided they introduce more variety in bodies. The lenses are top notch and most don't choose MF for street or candids. Hell I'd buy one if I had a spare $50k burning a hole in my pocket...
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    ….Sorta off topic but the S is a great move for Leica as MF is sort of an open market for the taking ….. Hell I'd buy one if I had a spare $50k burning a hole in my pocket...
    Well, you think so, but I've always thought it regrettable that Leica split it's resources and put its best designer on the S project rather than develop a modernised M platform [for marketing as an alternative to the 'traditional' M line]. Had they done so, maybe this thread would have supplied different answers, and those of us not sworn in as Leica advocates might be thinking not of the Sony A7r, but of a viable, available, Leica alternative.

    However, we are where we are, so I for one am looking closely at the A7r, with a view to keeping my M fit lenses, and dumping my Leica. I'm running out of years, and Leica is too slow to change for me, and too damned expensive. And time will tell whether the S line is a dead-end or not, and a strategy which Leica later regrets. When that time comes I suspect I'll be long gone from Leica.

    …………… Chris
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    Re: M or A7r

    I bought the Sony RX-1r while I was waiting for the new M. Having finally got the M and having used it for a month or so, I am not even considering the Sony A7 now - even though image quality (judging by the RX-1r) will probably be comparable or higher than the M (and very likely better than the M at higher ISOs), I am just no so keen on the ergonomics of these small cameras, the little buttons, menus, electronic finders. I am in fact selling the RX-1r right now and plan to be happily using the M (and the S2) for quite some time.

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    Re: M or A7r

    The only problem with the A7r, IMO, is the durability of the shutter. A M240 (I hope) have a far better shutter, long-life mechanic.

    The A7r is a wonderful camera for sure. I just hope it is a solid camera. Using the A7r with R glass ... will be awesome for sure. (I do not speak about video with R glass too).

    So for the price, the ease of use and the photographic possibility, the A7r is a far better choice than the M240.

    I would not underestimate the new Emount lenses such as the 35mmf2.8 and the 55f1.8... They are superb lenses. The future will probably bring some new awesome glass like a 85 f1.4 or something in this range.

    So, fingers crossed about the durability of the A7r curtain. Because of his ease of use, ppl might shoot a lot more with the A7r than a M, this is why I worry.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    Well, you think so, but I've always thought it regrettable that Leica split it's resources and put its best designer on the S project rather than develop a modernised M platform [for marketing as an alternative to the 'traditional' M line]. Had they done so, maybe this thread would have supplied different answers, and those of us not sworn in as Leica advocates might be thinking not of the Sony A7r, but of a viable, available, Leica alternative.

    However, we are where we are, so I for one am looking closely at the A7r, with a view to keeping my M fit lenses, and dumping my Leica. I'm running out of years, and Leica is too slow to change for me, and too damned expensive. And time will tell whether the S line is a dead-end or not, and a strategy which Leica later regrets. When that time comes I suspect I'll be long gone from Leica.

    …………… Chris
    I had my reservations about the S and the need for it when they had a line of people wanting to natively place their R lenses on a Leica made dSLR but again that's a crowded market they will never be more than a niche in. Look at the M. It's their popular 35mm camera and it still has niche status. The MF market is "owned" by Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf and Hasselblad but I can easily see Leica cutting into that in time.
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    Re: M or A7r

    The S line is pro only due to its pricing and many, many pros tell me that for equal entry money for the S (round $30-35k with one good lens) they would rather have anything else. In the back of their minds they suspect that Leica might abandon the S like they did the R and they would be stuck with a dead and very expensive series.

    Also 37.5MP is not much for $25k body when 800e's and now a7r's are now knocking on the door for less than the cost of the S extended warranty. I used one for an afternoon in a studio and frankly my 5D3 hits focus easier and faster than the S.

    I find it interesting that we all say we buy Leica because of the glass, but pros seem to get fantastic results without using Leica glass.

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    Re: M or A7r

    The output from the S is 16bit. It makes a huge difference in the image quality. Like Tre, I would not hesitate to buy the S system if I win a lottery.

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    Re: M or A7r

    The market is flooding with junk at alarming pace! It's also good to note that all the wannab HCBs choose oter brands. Seems that the silly leica "magicalness" is fading.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    The market is flooding with junk at alarming pace! It's also good to note that all the wannab HCBs choose oter brands. Seems that the silly leica "magicalness" is fading.
    Do you know which camera HCB liked in his last days? It was not a Leica.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    The market is flooding with junk at alarming pace! It's also good to note that all the wannab HCBs choose oter brands. Seems that the silly leica "magicalness" is fading.
    Yeah but junk would imply that the camera was incapable of taking a good picture. I think there are very few "junk" cameras these days but some are clearly tools that could possibly enhance the picture taking ability.
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    Re: M or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The output from the S is 16bit. It makes a huge difference in the image quality. Like Tre, I would not hesitate to buy the S system if I win a lottery.
    Ok, but for landscape an SWC +P45+, 39MP CCD costs maybe half the price of an S body alone. I have been side by side with S2 cameras using the venerable APO 120 while shooting 7 focus stacked images with me using the M+APO50 and many told me my single shot looked better than the S2 shots.

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    Re: M or A7r

    Vivek,

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The output from the S is 16bit. It makes a huge difference in the image quality.
    I thought this was disproved long ago? Digital Backs also record files in 16-bit, but my understanding is that at least one, and offtimes two of the bits are redundant.

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