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Irwin Puts Says Farewell to Leica?

Shashin

Well-known member
LOL! I'm sorry, Will, but the Leica M has not been the preferred camera type for the VAST majority of photographers since the middle 1960s. Sure, there's a niche market for 35mm, interchangeable lens, rangefinder cameras that still exists today ... but there's still a niche market for Daguerreotypes and one could hardly not call that an obsolete technology despite that fact.

All in good fun, sir. :D

G

I am, in all good fun, have to call you out in your reasoning. You seem to be confusing popularity with obsolescence. The vast majority of people do not use statistics, but that does not make it obsolete. :toocool:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I am, in all good fun, have to call you out in your reasoning. You seem to be confusing popularity with obsolescence. The vast majority of people do not use statistics, but that does not make it obsolete. :toocool:

That's even funnier. I'm a Mathematician by training, with a speciality in Statistics. And statistics are amongst the most widely used mathematics in the world today. :D

The Leica M was obsoleted in the 1960s for all the reasons I articulated a dozen or so message posts back. The fact that it still survives and is quite popular amongst a niche market of users despite that obsolesence is quite nice, but that does not in any way make it anything other than obsolete. Many obsolete things remain perfectly viable objects of desire to some.

G
 

pegelli

Well-known member
I'm with Will here (still in good humour ;) )

If you use Godfrey's "first" definition of obsolescence:
Godfrey said:
Obsolescence is the state of being which occurs when an object, service, or practice is no longer wanted even though it may still be in good working order.
(some bolding is mine)

I think there's still many people who "want" a rangefinder camera. They're still being produced, sold new and 2nd hand as well as used by people who buy them and that would not happen if people didn't "want" them anymore. So while they might be obsolete for some people (who don't "want" them anymore) they're in my mind not obsolete in general.
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
My 2p,

Obsolescence requires a use case as well. Horses are not obsolete, but horses as transportation from New York to Boston are. The Leica M is not now used in many situations where it once was. Counterexamples exist, but photojournalism has moved on.

By most measures, the only non-obsolescent cameras are found in phones.

As for statistics, it *is* used, or more correctly, abused by a large and diverse population, but that is still quite small as populations go. And for every 100 people who quote a p-value, only a few understand the hypotheses required for it to have relevance.

Matt
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
For practical purposes, I prefer to look at it as mind over matter.

If I don't mind, it doesn't matter!:)

I am perfectly happy with a fly rod in hand at break of day, when a video would show the stream and someone else catching fish. It is the experience for me that matters and it is up to me to produce the results and enjoy them.

So, I guess nothing is really obsolete for me. :ROTFL:

Back to the OP....

https://photo.imx.nl/blog/

I did look up the Erwin Puts blog (not Irwin Puts blog). I have heard of his books for years but had no use for such technical literature. I still have no idea what his day job is/was. Nor do I have a stake in his decision to say farewell to Leica. I do find it odd because there is no switching to another brand... maybe he should have said farewell to contemporary and future photographic gear. I presume it was a parting shot at something he didn't like, but he offered no alternative.

Nothing wrong with sticking with what one loves most.:thumbs:
 

pegelli

Well-known member
My 2p,

Obsolescence requires a use case as well. Horses are not obsolete, but horses as transportation from New York to Boston are. The Leica M is not now used in many situations where it once was. Counterexamples exist, but photojournalism has moved on.

By most measures, the only non-obsolescent cameras are found in phones.

As for statistics, it *is* used, or more correctly, abused by a large and diverse population, but that is still quite small as populations go. And for every 100 people who quote a p-value, only a few understand the hypotheses required for it to have relevance.

Matt
Good points Matt. The rangefinder camera might be obsolete for photojournalism (even though exceptions probably exist) but there's plenty other use cases for which is not obsolete and used a whole lot more than Daguerreotypes ;)
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Erwin Puts has always been conswervative and a bit pesimistic. He wrote the article "Death of Photography" back in... 2003? Unfortunately, that article isn't any longer available online. I tend to agree with many of his views, and I absolutely think that most people are not questioning "technological progress" often enough. Humanity seems very satisfied with everything becoming easier and more accessible. But I'm an oddball. I remember scratching my head as a child when a friend of the family had bought a TV with remote control (connected to the TV with a long cable). There was nothing wrong with his legs, and I knew for a fact that all TVs had buttons for all functions on the front panel.

Nowadays, my children's generation is being relieved from the exhausting button pushing. They have a device in their house with the same name as my ex-wife, fixing anything from TV programs to lights and heating.

"Strange" cameras like the M Series are becoming rare. I think Mr. Puts is at least partly right. In the future, we will all eat the same porridge and take photos with the same Sony camera.
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Erwin Puts has always been conswervative and a bit pesimistic. He wrote the article "Death of Photography" back in... 2003? Unfortunately, that article isn't any longer available online. I tend to agree with many of his views, and I absolutely think that most people are not questioning "technological progress" often enough. Humanity seems very satisfied with everything becoming easier and more accessible. But I'm an oddball. I remember scratching my head as a child when a friend of the family had bought a TV with remote control (connected to the TV with a long cable). There was nothing wrong with his legs, and I knew for a fact that all TVs had buttons for all functions on the front panel.

Nowadays, my children's generation is being relieved from the exhausting button pushing. They have a device in their house with the same name as my ex-wife, fixing anything from TV programs to lights and heating.

"Strange" cameras like the M Series are becoming rare. I think Mr. Puts is at least partly right. In the future, we will all eat the same porridge and take photos with the same Sony camera.

Totally agree, Jorgen.

Farewell to my old television, though and only buy old televisions? No, there is no real alternative.

I, too, prefer the older M cameras and lenses. But to say farewell to Leica seems like shooting oneself in the foot. But then, that remote control would come in handy, I suppose.:ROTFL:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Erwin Puts has always been conswervative and a bit pesimistic. He wrote the article "Death of Photography" back in... 2003? Unfortunately, that article isn't any longer available online. I tend to agree with many of his views, and I absolutely think that most people are not questioning "technological progress" often enough. Humanity seems very satisfied with everything becoming easier and more accessible. But I'm an oddball. I remember scratching my head as a child when a friend of the family had bought a TV with remote control (connected to the TV with a long cable). There was nothing wrong with his legs, and I knew for a fact that all TVs had buttons for all functions on the front panel.

Nowadays, my children's generation is being relieved from the exhausting button pushing. They have a device in their house with the same name as my ex-wife, fixing anything from TV programs to lights and heating.

"Strange" cameras like the M Series are becoming rare. I think Mr. Puts is at least partly right. In the future, we will all eat the same porridge and take photos with the same Sony camera.

Perhaps. If we want to...
I doubt somehow that we all want to. :D

Remember, there's no 'master overlord' telling you what to spend your money on. You vote by choosing what you want to spend your money on. And by not buying stuff when what you have is perfectly satisfactory. That sends the clearest message to the companies that produce stuff ... they have to come up with stuff that you want to buy.

If all the good cameras I like stopped being produced today, well, I have enough good cameras I like to last me for the rest of my life. Both film and digital. My Olympus E-1, first sold in October 2003, is still perfectly happy to make excellent photos for me anytime I want to use it. My 1968 Minox C I pulled out of the closet after not touching it for 11 years, put a battery in, and is working perfectly. So is my 1982 Minox EC... and my 1939 Berning Robot II! So I think most of the later cameras will continue to work just fine until far beyond when I no longer have the ability to pick them up. :)

G
 

drofnad

Member
... nothing wrong with his legs,

Similarly I'm appalled that there are major technological firms working on how to deliver by drones things bought by clicks on-line --so much is the urgency of this! (While millions struggle in uprooted-from-home conditions, refugees.)

Perhaps. If we want to...
I doubt somehow that we all want to. :D

Remember, there's no 'master overlord' telling you what to spend your money on. You vote by choosing what you want to spend your money on. A

Not entirely so, alas : you might be out-voted, and what you'd like won't be anymore available. (Like the correct use of "reticent" : how is it that so many these recent times seem to have fogotten that "reluctant" is a word and means ... what they want in mis-using "reticent" --"he's reticent to tell us ..." being the paradigm gaff. :mad: Enough of these *votes* by usage, and Webster's will suck it into the definition, and ... .)

-d.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Similarly I'm appalled that there are major technological firms working on how to deliver by drones things bought by clicks on-line --so much is the urgency of this! (While millions struggle in uprooted-from-home conditions, refugees.)



Not entirely so, alas : you might be out-voted, and what you'd like won't be anymore available. (Like the correct use of "reticent" : how is it that so many these recent times seem to have fogotten that "reluctant" is a word and means ... what they want in mis-using "reticent" --"he's reticent to tell us ..." being the paradigm gaff. :mad: Enough of these *votes* by usage, and Webster's will suck it into the definition, and ... .)

-d.

Yes, we're getting :OT:, but as a firm descriptivist, I must respond:



My bugbear is "utilize". It is almost never used correctly. Use and utilize have very different meanings!

:grin:

Matt
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Since this is about a camera design of a bygone era; let me paraphrase from a bygone era too:

The Leica sage: ‘ Where shall I go? What shall I do ? ‘; tearfully.

The Bedouin: ‘ Franky, my dear, I don’t give a damn ‘; gleefully.
And rides his camel towards the sunset and Ayesha’s waiting arms.

The End.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Unfortunately in our commercialised world products sometimes disappear not because nobody wanted to buy them and sometimes not even because they weren't profitable, but because they weren't profitable enough.

Leica has so far been a safe haven for obscure, outdated products, and there are others, but will it last? Is it even a problem? In my view, it makes os poorer sometimes.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Literally or figuratively?
Literally. You use a washing machine to wash clothes. You utilize a washing machine as ammunition for a trebuchet. "Utilize" implies a nonstandard usage. I suppose the usage can change over time. Early on, digital cameras were utilized as film scanners. Now they are used for that purpose.

My younger daughter (who just turned 18, so I am officially done parenting!) was visiting RIT. The speaker utilized "utilize" roughly three times per sentence (figuratively). "The way we utilize technology company buy-in facilitates student utilization of leading edge technology to... blah blah" I literally wanted to figuratively strangle him. That's when I looked it up.

(And I do like the "Misuse of literally drives me figuratively insane" T-Shirts. Along with "Let's eat Grandma. Punctuation is important.")
 

dj may

Well-known member
You're nuts or your nuts?:LOL:

Literally. You use a washing machine to wash clothes. You utilize a washing machine as ammunition for a trebuchet. "Utilize" implies a nonstandard usage. I suppose the usage can change over time. Early on, digital cameras were utilized as film scanners. Now they are used for that purpose.

My younger daughter (who just turned 18, so I am officially done parenting!) was visiting RIT. The speaker utilized "utilize" roughly three times per sentence (figuratively). "The way we utilize technology company buy-in facilitates student utilization of leading edge technology to... blah blah" I literally wanted to figuratively strangle him. That's when I looked it up.

(And I do like the "Misuse of literally drives me figuratively insane" T-Shirts. Along with "Let's eat Grandma. Punctuation is important.")
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Literally. You use a washing machine to wash clothes. You utilize a washing machine as ammunition for a trebuchet. "Utilize" implies a nonstandard usage. I suppose the usage can change over time. Early on, digital cameras were utilized as film scanners. Now they are used for that purpose.

My younger daughter (who just turned 18, so I am officially done parenting!) was visiting RIT. The speaker utilized "utilize" roughly three times per sentence (figuratively). "The way we utilize technology company buy-in facilitates student utilization of leading edge technology to... blah blah" I literally wanted to figuratively strangle him. That's when I looked it up.

(And I do like the "Misuse of literally drives me figuratively insane" T-Shirts. Along with "Let's eat Grandma. Punctuation is important.")

I am not surprised by the language at RIT--I went there. Still, it is not unique.

I am not sure I am winning the battle for the serial comma. But I was given patience by my parents, the Pope and mother Teresa.

Dictionaries are fundamentally flawed devices, they assume you know how to find the word you don't know how to spell in the first place. I am still looking for newmatic (or is that knewmatick? Prehaps Gnumatyc?). Naturally, spell checkers help:

I have a spelling checker
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
Mistakes I cannot sea

I've run this poem threw it
I'm shore your please to no
Its letter perfect in it's weigh
My checker tolled me sew

Close spellings are bothersome too. In a government report by the DOI, apparently the word public really does need the L. Unless their statutory authority has been somehow expanded...
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
It seems fitting that a discussion of Erwin Puts has transitioned into one about grammar. They seem to be in the same wheelhouse.
By the way, that old English is getting hilariously close to Icelandic. I have a feeling if we keep going, I could get back into the conversation again.

As far as I recall, Erwin Puts has always had it out for digital...I am surprised it took him this long to say goodbye. I am not sure there is anywhere else to go, however, except back in time. Other than a handful of view camera makers, I am not sure anyone is making film cameras anymore, are they? I say this as someone who loves film and still shoots medium and large format on a very regular basis.
 
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Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Other than a handful of view camera makers, I am not sure anyone is making film cameras anymore, are they?

The only one I can think of is Nikon with the F6. They even make some of the AiS lenses still. Many are still hoping for an F7 with the latest AF technology and compatibility with the newest lenses.

Then of course there's Leica. They still make the MP, and the M-A is a relatively recent addition. It's unfortunate that they discontinued the M7, but I suppose it was impossible to compete with the large number of second hand M6 bodies out there, a camera that essentially offers the same kind of functionality.

The Hasselblad H6D can take film backs, can't it? The backs are not in production anymore though, at least not as far as I know.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Lurking somewhere in this conversation is a larger issue, that of how to undertake revamping traditions. It’s a tricky business, to be sure, and evermore so in a world with significant, high paced, and constant technological change

Leica has, as have others, to make changes, while at the same time, tried to stay true to their core values. The problem becomes more difficult as there is a lack of clear consensus on what those core values are.

Looking back over Leica’s efforts over the past say 10-20 years, one can readily see a number of mis-steps or approaches that didn’t work out. But one can also see some that did, surprisingly so - each of us will have our own list. I suspect the M9-M10 dwould be on most, and not the M8. I’d pick the MM and even today’s CL as special examples.

What is admirable about Leica is that they are still trying - having both misses and successes. One has to give them points for a willingness to try, to explore, and for engaging the issue of what makes them special if we step back, the list of approaches tried is rather long, and quite interesting. It includes fashion, boutiques, quality manufacture, T and S models, among others.

Puts’ departure clearly signals some sort of internal struggle going on, probably related to future business models, focus and direction; it’s likely that core manufacturing (Puts’ favored approach) is under revision. Maybe it’s necessary to change, maybe it’s a mistake (remember Hasselblad?). We’ll see over time.

But I for one am heartened by those in the company who have good design values, and a willingness to make a product with some core values I share -which include a focus on ease of use, refinement, build quality, and lens excellence. They are cameras made for thoughtful shooters. Let’s hope they continue to have success and remain in the game. The world needs smaller companies charting out a different path.
 
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