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A little help from my friends please.

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Marc,

I don't have much to add except some comments on Kodak v Dalsa rendering. First, I'd say the difference is small, and will probably go unnoticed by the majority of your clients in a print. However, I am equally certain it won't go unnoticed by you...

To my eye, the color is smoother, and offers visibly better distinction of hues in the green palette, and to a small extent this carries into the the blues. What becomes noteworthy here is then the B&W conversions -- where there is then more and/or smoother tonal gradations within a given area (better "inter-tonality" ?) rendered by the Dalsa. For whatever reason, it is also easier for me to maintain better visible separation in stronger highlight areas with my Dalsa back.

I have read where other folks claim the Dalsa is more film-like. I understand why they say that, but hesitate to use that analogy myself. I will say the Dalsa file appears more "organic" and natural looking than the Kodak, which appears more digital. Of course I have no idea if these traits hold in the Hassy line, but I suspect they would.

My honest answer to you is there any way you can visit a dealer that has all of these options available, and spend a day or so creating files, then a week or so analyzing the performance for your needs? A 2-back solution sounds nice, but my experience is you'll either never have the back mounted you want to be using, so a time suck deciding and mounting whichever. Or you will ALWAYS migrate to one of them over the other, favoring some aspect or aspects, so the other is a wasted expenditure.

If the 60 had multi-shot and pixel binning, you'd be set...

Offered IMO only...

PS: Here is one image from my P65+ that I think conveys my green and highlight comments. This is a single capture, shot toward a full Sun, which is not in the image directly but is reflecting off the water. As such, the undersides of the cars are in deep shadows as can be seen. The grass is new, so contains varying hues of green and yellow. Not the greatest image, and much has been lost in the sRGB jpeg conversion, but perhaps you can see in it what I'm trying to explain above. I believe this same image captured by my P45+ would have rendered more consistent bluer greens, and not held the varying highlights in the specular reflections off the river mud as well:

 

carstenw

Active member
Summary:

1) H4D/60.
Pros: 1x crop, resolution, simple system.
Cons: 1 egg in your basket, risky chip, slower/lower ISO than H4D-40.

2) H3D-II/50 + 80/2.8, H4D/40
Pros: ISO, speed, backup system.
Cons: Not much difference between 40 and 50MP, expense.


3) CF-39 MS on H2F, H4D/40
Pros: ISO, speed, studio resolution, alternative cameras.
Cons: Not a true backup, pricing/upgrade structure.

From these three options, I don't really see one which is head-and-shoulders above the others. Each has advantages and disadvantages. There are some other potential constellations though:

4) H4D-40
Pros: ISO, speed, single body/back system, money to put into something else.
Cons: no backup, no super-high-res solution.

5) H4D-40, H3DII-39/50 MS
Pros: ISO, speed, resolution, backup system.
Cons: price.

I would say get the best trade-in deal on the H3DII-39 towards the H4D-40, and use that for a while. Keep a rental phone number in your pocket in case. Keep an eye on your studio resolution needs, and if you really need more than 40MP, find the best deal you can on an H3DII-39/50 MS.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Pretty interesting at least for me is it all came down to the 40. Guess i did okay myself.

I think until the 60 is out and the data on specs is real than I would not buy on spec. Hell we all have been burned on spec on something or other in MF, 35mm and RF

Even though the 40 just is hitting the streets from me at least i have more faith in it right now. I guess owning a 40 helps
 

Dustbak

Member
Lets summarize;

You want the 40. That is more or less set in stone since you would like to use the better high ISO & the better AF.

You want a MS back for studio work. I use multishot very often, though I find the 16MP, 22MP & the 39MP are pretty similar in IQ (the resolution is basically the only difference). The Ixpress multishot backs I would exclude since they do not have the CA correction from DAC. This would definitely limit you to the CF22MS, 39MS or the H4D50MS.

I have a CFII39MS & a CF39. The difference in the screens is negligible, they both suck. OTOH, when you have them for multishot usage you do not use the screen!

If I were in your position I would get the cheapest deal that would ensure me I got the 40 + a MS back no matter which MS back as long as you have DAC (22MS, 39MS or the 50MS).

I lust for the H4D50MS. If I can get a great deal for it I will certainly go for it but I don't need it. The 39MS is more than adequate.

Or...

get the H4D50MS but realize you lose over a stop on the ISO side.

I totally understand your dilemma. As you know I am pretty much in the same boat with the only difference being that I already own a MS back. I could not do without that. It has earned itself back several times within the first year I had it. YMMV.

I know what will happen if I would go for the H4D50MS. I would feel forced to get a second comparable (or the same) back as a backup. If you recognize this sentiment don't kid yourself than you know it will turn out twice as expensive.
 

arashm

Member
side note
I just want to put this out there so there is no confusion.
All I know is it's taken Hassy a bit more to integrate the Dalsa chip.
While I'm one of those people who likes to test drive before I buy, I don't want to cast any un-certinaty on the final product, it may turn up to be brilliant, as proven by Phase in the P65+
thanks
am
 

fotografz

Well-known member
side note
I just want to put this out there so there is no confusion.
All I know is it's taken Hassy a bit more to integrate the Dalsa chip.
While I'm one of those people who likes to test drive before I buy, I don't want to cast any un-certinaty on the final product, it may turn up to be brilliant, as proven by Phase in the P65+
thanks
am
My experience is that Hassey releases few mistakes to customers, preferring being late to market.

The one exception to this was the ill fated H2D/22 that shot DNG files straight from the camera ... which was infested with hidden bugs. Hassey promptly replaced my camera with a new one that shot 3F RAW, and added a free 3 year Hot Swap warranty for the inconvenience.

That was years ago, and everything since has been bulletproof. So I have less concerns about the 60. Let them get it perfect, I can wait.:angel:

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks to all for their considered opinions and truly great input. :thumbs:

As it stands, I am leaning toward sticking with the original plan ... trade the H3D-II/39 for a H4D/60.

In the end it is the least expensive option, even when I include a 3 year Flexcare Enhanced Warranty which somewhat mitigates the need for a true back-up. Plus, it represents the largest leap in resolution and sensor size to distance my MFD kit from anything the DSLR makers may deliver in future... like the rumored Sony 35 meg Alpha.

Jack's input in particular was valuable in terms of the performance of the 60 meg Dalsa sensor he is already working with. Everything he demonstrates are IQ attributes that I value ... especially when shooting people. My previous Leaf Aptus 75s had those image attributes, so I know what he is referencing.

A 50 Multi-Shot may well produce higher IQ in static shooting conditions, however H Multi-Shots are a bit less suited to more spontaneous work due to the MS module increasing the length of the back a tad past the finder, and it adds a bit of weight to an already heavy camera. I shoot a lot of hand-held or Mono-Pod stuff (which will be an interesting challenge when I up the resolution this much).

I am waiting for my accountant's tax results ... maybe Uncle Sam will fund a H4D/40 also :thumbup: ... or ... I could be keeping the H3D-II/39 and feel lucky to have it :salute:

Thanks again!

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Marc, I won't get into the technical advantages/disadvantages of the various options... you know them better than I. I will say that I think you've made a wise choice in going with one back vs. two. Been there... done that, and to some extent am still doing it with the multiple platforms I have with the Hy6. I found/find myself choosing which back/platform to use for all the wrong reasons, e.g. boy, I haven't shot with the Hasselblad in a while... if I'm not going to use it, why have it. So I switch to the Hassy when the Hy6 would have been the better choice. There's also something to be said for going with your first choice. We all second guess ourselves, whether before or after the purchase, and going with the top of the line-up helps avoid that (at least for me). I do like the advice about selling your existing kit while it's still got warranty remaining. Of course you'd need to get more for it then what they'll give you on the trade-in. I can't help but feel that these trade-in deals "overstate" the value of our existing gear and that if you were an all cash buyer you might be able to negotiate a heck of a good discount.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, I won't get into the technical advantages/disadvantages of the various options... you know them better than I. I will say that I think you've made a wise choice in going with one back vs. two. Been there... done that, and to some extent am still doing it with the multiple platforms I have with the Hy6. I found/find myself choosing which back/platform to use for all the wrong reasons, e.g. boy, I haven't shot with the Hasselblad in a while... if I'm not going to use it, why have it. So I switch to the Hassy when the Hy6 would have been the better choice. There's also something to be said for going with your first choice. We all second guess ourselves, whether before or after the purchase, and going with the top of the line-up helps avoid that (at least for me). I do like the advice about selling your existing kit while it's still got warranty remaining. Of course you'd need to get more for it then what they'll give you on the trade-in. I can't help but feel that these trade-in deals "overstate" the value of our existing gear and that if you were an all cash buyer you might be able to negotiate a heck of a good discount.
Actually David, that's exactly what I did right away. I asked what the flat out purchase price was with the intent of selling my existing rig myself. Not even close. Even with discounts on the straight purchase, the trade deal is better. I suspect they did this back in November to estimate actual interest and production numbers for this new model ... and they are looking to get as many previous backs off the streets as possible.

This may not be true a year from now ... or even this fall at show time. But by then my rig would be less attractive.

The shame of it is that this kit is so low use, has worked perfectly, and has 4 months left on the coverage ... but it fetches the same trade value as a non-Mark-II unit with 100,000 shots on it. :wtf:

Oh well ....

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Marc same with me and the Phase the trade in deals are just better to do. They also want to keep you in there system too. So for them it makes sense and for us it does as well.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Just to confuse the issue, you could always find someone with a Phase back who is hell bent on Hassey.
Trade +- some bucks. Both benefit on trade
IF you wanted to switch to Phase that is.

I actually did some years ago. Unlike warranty, trades are uaually 'who owns now"

Just mentioning since the chance is likely high of finding a swap, so the Phase option shouldn't be locked out.

OR I hear the new Contax 645 III will take ANY MF trade......:ROTFL:
 
D

DougDolde

Guest
The big question is Will It Satisfy You (no matter what the choice) and if so for How Long ?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Actually Doug, that is really the net question, isn't it? And I think I know Marc pretty well, at least when it comes to camera gear --- basically all I have to do is look in the mirror :ROTFL:

I am taking bets: Marc will end with a Hassy 60 within 90 days of them being readily available. I'll even go 1 for 2 that he grabs the first one he's offered!
 
D

DougDolde

Guest
This is kind of like going to a bunch of alcoholics and asking what the best drink is.
 

carstenw

Active member
Maitre d': Et maintenant, would monsieur care for an aperitif, or would he prefer to order straightaway? Today, we have for appetizers - excuse me - uh, moules marinières, pâte de foie gras, beluga caviar, eggs Benedictine, tarte de poireaux - that's leek tart - frogs legs amandine or oeufs de caille Richard Shepherd - C'est à dire, little quails' eggs on a bed of pureed mushrooms. It's very delicate, very succulent.

Mr. Creosote: I'll have the lot.
 
Here is some food for thought..

Shot this last night on the rooftop bar of our hotel, following our partner conference that day.

H4D40
ISO800
1/3 second
f6.7

(So really not much light around)

Hand Held by balancing on a glass partition!
Zero noise reduction
Shadow Fill and Clarity applied.

Quality-wise. You can be the judge. ;)

Ill upload a TIF file soon on a separate thread.

D

EDIT - Forgot to attach JPEG :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

fotografz

Well-known member
Here is some food for thought..

Shot this last night on the rooftop bar of our hotel, following our partner conference that day.

H4D40
ISO800
1/3 second
f6.7

(So really not much light around)

Hand Held by balancing on a glass partition!
Zero noise reduction
Shadow Fill and Clarity applied.

Quality-wise. You can be the judge. ;)

Ill upload a TIF file soon on a separate thread.

D

EDIT - Forgot to attach JPEG :rolleyes:
Hey David, if you get a spare minute could you Drop Box a 3FR RAW file of that 40 shot to me?

[email protected]

While the 60 decision stands firm now, the 40 is not out of the running here ... depending on what my tax refund may be. I don't have a conflict in terms of distinguishing applications between a 40 and a 60. The 60 would live in the studio for the most part, while the 40 would be the go-to camera for more spontaneous work ... just like the 39 and 31 were previously.

-Marc
 
Hey David, if you get a spare minute could you Drop Box a 3FR RAW file of that 40 shot to me?

[email protected]

While the 60 decision stands firm now, the 40 is not out of the running here ... depending on what my tax refund may be. I don't have a conflict in terms of distinguishing applications between a 40 and a 60. The 60 would live in the studio for the most part, while the 40 would be the go-to camera for more spontaneous work ... just like the 39 and 31 were previously.

-Marc
Sure Marc. I am just about to head to the airport so it might be in 20 hrs time. ;)

Hopefully the TIF will be available later today though.

D
 
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