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Thread: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

  1. #1
    Shirish1467
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    P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Hi,

    I'm a New Delhi (India) based photographer. My work mostly involves food & beverage, still life, and liquid photography. I'm occasionally required to photograph people, but only rarely. Almost all of my commercial work is done in controlled/artificial lighting situations.

    I've been a Mamiya 6X7 user since almost as long back as I can remember -RB, RZ, and recently on an impulse I picked up the RZ Pro IID. I've been using rented Phase One backs for the past 4-5 years - mostly the P45 (non-plus) on a Mamiya RZ67 with my favourite 110mm f2.8 lens and ISOs ranging from 50 to 200.

    I've finally decided to take the plunge and purchase a Digital Back. After weighing the pros and cons and keeping my preferences in mind, here's the thing:

    1) I would like to stick with my Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID camera system. I prefer this system to any 645 system which I've tried.
    2) I love the size of the P65+ sensor, but not only is it way beyond my budget, it's also way beyond my Megapixel requirements.
    3) The P45+ is perfect for me in terms of Megapixels and sensor size.
    4) I liked the P40+ as well, but am wondering if it's sensor is going to be too small for my camera system.

    I'm oscillating between the P45+ and P40+, which leads me to my main questions:

    1) Is there a significant difference in the crop factor of the P45+ and P40+ when used with the RZ system?
    2) Is there actually a difference in image quality? I would have thought that since the P45+ sensor has larger pixels it would produce better images.
    3) Is the Leaf Aptus II 7 an option I should also consider?
    3) Are cameras like the D3X, 5D Mark II, 1D Mark III comparable to (22 Megapixel) digital backs in terms of image quality?

    The Phase One team at Photokina were very helpful, but didn't have a Pro IID available, and I didn't have the foresight to carry mine with me to do all the necessary tests. The only Phase One distributor in India is based in Mumbai, so it's difficult to actually go through the whole 'try and buy' procedure. This is a big purchase for me, and I want to make sure that my final decision is based on thorough research and a complete knowledge of what I'm getting into, rather than impulsively pick up what I think is a better option, only to find I've made the 'wrong' choice.

    Thanks for your time. I'm sorry if this is an extremely long question, but I felt I should give a little background so that it makes it easier for you to understand where I'm coming from.

    Shirish

  2. #2
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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirish1467 View Post
    Hi,

    I'm a New Delhi (India) based photographer. My work mostly involves food & beverage, still life, and liquid photography. I'm occasionally required to photograph people, but only rarely. Almost all of my commercial work is done in controlled/artificial lighting situations.

    I've been a Mamiya 6X7 user since almost as long back as I can remember -RB, RZ, and recently on an impulse I picked up the RZ Pro IID. I've been using rented Phase One backs for the past 4-5 years - mostly the P45 (non-plus) on a Mamiya RZ67 with my favourite 110mm f2.8 lens and ISOs ranging from 50 to 200.

    I've finally decided to take the plunge and purchase a Digital Back. After weighing the pros and cons and keeping my preferences in mind, here's the thing:

    1) I would like to stick with my Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID camera system. I prefer this system to any 645 system which I've tried.
    2) I love the size of the P65+ sensor, but not only is it way beyond my budget, it's also way beyond my Megapixel requirements.
    3) The P45+ is perfect for me in terms of Megapixels and sensor size.
    4) I liked the P40+ as well, but am wondering if it's sensor is going to be too small for my camera system.

    I'm oscillating between the P45+ and P40+, which leads me to my main questions:

    1) Is there a significant difference in the crop factor of the P45+ and P40+ when used with the RZ system?
    2) Is there actually a difference in image quality? I would have thought that since the P45+ sensor has larger pixels it would produce better images.
    3) Is the Leaf Aptus II 7 an option I should also consider?
    3) Are cameras like the D3X, 5D Mark II, 1D Mark III comparable to (22 Megapixel) digital backs in terms of image quality?

    The Phase One team at Photokina were very helpful, but didn't have a Pro IID available, and I didn't have the foresight to carry mine with me to do all the necessary tests. The only Phase One distributor in India is based in Mumbai, so it's difficult to actually go through the whole 'try and buy' procedure. This is a big purchase for me, and I want to make sure that my final decision is based on thorough research and a complete knowledge of what I'm getting into, rather than impulsively pick up what I think is a better option, only to find I've made the 'wrong' choice.

    Thanks for your time. I'm sorry if this is an extremely long question, but I felt I should give a little background so that it makes it easier for you to understand where I'm coming from.

    Shirish
    Shirish,

    Keeping with budget considerations, I'd seriously look at the Leaf Aptus 7 ... or the Mamiya back now made specifically for the RZ ProD which I believe is exactly the same as the Aptus 7-II.

    I used the Aptus 7 back on a Mamiya RZ and can honestly say is was a perfect match for the RZ optics. I believe all of the 40 meg options have a 1.3X crop factor on a 645 where the P45 and Aptus 7 are 1.1X ... so the larger sensor is preferable for the even larger coverage of the RZ.

    I no longer use an Aptus back on the RZ ... I moved to a Hasselblad CF/39 Multi-Shot which I bought as a refurb from Hasseblad for $15K and added a 1 year warranty extension for a few hundred more. I also could not afford a 60 meg back or anywhere near a 80 meg ... so the 39 multi-shot was the next best thing so I could get super high quality captures for certain work that involved fabrics and fine details without Moire' issues, while still being able to use the back in single shot when Multi-Shot wasn't needed, or for shooting people or moving subjects.

    -Marc

    BTW, the image quality of a 22 meg back will out perform a D3X or anything else currently found in the 35 mm digital world ... but I would NOT chose a 22 for the type of work you describe due to possible issues with Moiré.

  3. #3
    Shirish1467
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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Shirish,

    Keeping with budget considerations, I'd seriously look at the Leaf Aptus 7 ... or the Mamiya back now made specifically for the RZ ProD which I believe is exactly the same as the Aptus 7-II.

    I used the Aptus 7 back on a Mamiya RZ and can honestly say is was a perfect match for the RZ optics. I believe all of the 40 meg options have a 1.3X crop factor on a 645 where the P45 and Aptus 7 are 1.1X ... so the larger sensor is preferable for the even larger coverage of the RZ.

    I no longer use an Aptus back on the RZ ... I moved to a Hasselblad CF/39 Multi-Shot which I bought as a refurb from Hasseblad for $15K and added a 1 year warranty extension for a few hundred more. I also could not afford a 60 meg back or anywhere near a 80 meg ... so the 39 multi-shot was the next best thing so I could get super high quality captures for certain work that involved fabrics and fine details without Moire' issues, while still being able to use the back in single shot when Multi-Shot wasn't needed, or for shooting people or moving subjects.

    -Marc

    BTW, the image quality of a 22 meg back will out perform a D3X or anything else currently found in the 35 mm digital world ... but I would NOT chose a 22 for the type of work you describe due to possible issues with Moiré.
    Marc

    Thanks for the response.

    I mostly use the RZ-P45 system, although I've used the RZ-Aptus-II 7 combination on a few occasions. I definitely prefer the Leaf LCD over the Phase One display, although apart from that there really is no discernable difference between the two.

    How does the Hasselblad compare?

    Shirish

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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirish1467 View Post
    Marc

    Thanks for the response.

    I mostly use the RZ-P45 system, although I've used the RZ-Aptus-II 7 combination on a few occasions. I definitely prefer the Leaf LCD over the Phase One display, although apart from that there really is no discernable difference between the two.

    How does the Hasselblad compare?

    Shirish
    Well, Shirish ... there is a difference between the sensor response that many people have commented on in the past. The P45 and similar 39 meg Hasselblad backs use a Kodak sensor, where the Aptus-7 backs use a Dalsa made sensor. Some have observed that the Dalsa sensors produce slightly nicer skin tones and other subtly different characteristics. The newer P40+ and P65+ backs now use Dalsa sensors ... as does the Hasselblad H4D/60 (which has been slow market).

    Jack Flesher, one of the Owner/Moderators here, previously used a P45+ with Kodak sensor, and now uses a P65+ with a Dalsa sensor ... so perhaps he'll jump in and provide his opinion concerning the differences in character that he sees. You may not have seen the differences with the type of work you do compared to other photographers that do different work and see a difference ... in which case it is less relevant to you.

    RE: Hasselblad ... in your case for use on the RZD I'd stick with what you know ... P45 or Aptus7-II ... great value for the money IMO. As mentioned previously, I'd also seriously look to the Mamiya version of the Aptus7-II since it is matched to the RZD you already have. Not sure if the Leaf Aptus with Mamiya mount functions without sync cables to the back ... but for sure the Mamiya RZ33 version doesn't need sync cables on the RZD.

    Read this:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/1006/10...mamiyarz33.asp

    Where it me, I get the above in a New York heart beat.

    The only Hasselblad Back I'd even recommend is the CF Muti-Shot like I currently use. In the 33 to 39 meg sized sensors like the P45, Leaf 7, and Hassey 39 meg backs ... Multi-Shot does make a considerable difference for still life work. One would need to get the latest 60 meg single shot back to come close, or the new 80 meg back to surpass it.

    The other attribute I like with the CF/MS is that it does not have a fixed mount like the Phase One or Leaf backs. It uses an iAdapter system so the back can be used on multiple brands of medium format cameras. For example I use my CF39/MS on an RZ and a Hasselblad H2F ... and could use a H1, H2, Contax 645 or Mamiya 645 if I wished. The iAdapters are user swappable and takes just a few minutes. In the case of the H2F camera, I have access to a nice range of lenses to use with Hassey's Title Shift unit.

    The only other backs that offer use on multiple MF/SLR cameras are the Sinar Backs.

    Hope this helps a little.

    -Marc

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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Jack Flesher, one of the Owner/Moderators here, previously used a P45+ with Kodak sensor, and now uses a P65+ with a Dalsa sensor ... so perhaps he'll jump in and provide his opinion concerning the differences in character that he sees.
    There definitely is a difference in the way the sensors render, though it is subtle and difficult to describe; like wine aficionados discussing the subtleties between two excellent Bordeaux's. Yet if you ask anybody who has shot extensively with both, all will see it. The best way I can word it, is the Dalsa tends to show smoother tonal and color transitions, and give more real-looking saturation differentials. I've heard other folks claim the Dalsa is more "film like" in the way it renders, and I would not disagree...



    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  6. #6
    Shirish1467
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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Marc

    Thank you for the inputs and the link. I am taking a close look at the P45+ and the Leaf Aptus II-7 (which is essentially the same as the Mamiya RZ33) before making my final decision. Leaning to the P45+ at the moment.

    To be honest, the difference in quality of the Kodak and Dalsa sensors is too minute for me to tell. However, there seems to be a noticeable improvement in the quality of the P45+ over the P45 (non Plus).

    Hasselblad is not an option I'm considering. Was just wondering what your experience has been.

    Thanks for bringing Jack in to this discussion as well.

    Shirish

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, Shirish ... there is a difference between the sensor response that many people have commented on in the past. The P45 and similar 39 meg Hasselblad backs use a Kodak sensor, where the Aptus-7 backs use a Dalsa made sensor. Some have observed that the Dalsa sensors produce slightly nicer skin tones and other subtly different characteristics. The newer P40+ and P65+ backs now use Dalsa sensors ... as does the Hasselblad H4D/60 (which has been slow market).

    Jack Flesher, one of the Owner/Moderators here, previously used a P45+ with Kodak sensor, and now uses a P65+ with a Dalsa sensor ... so perhaps he'll jump in and provide his opinion concerning the differences in character that he sees. You may not have seen the differences with the type of work you do compared to other photographers that do different work and see a difference ... in which case it is less relevant to you.

    RE: Hasselblad ... in your case for use on the RZD I'd stick with what you know ... P45 or Aptus7-II ... great value for the money IMO. As mentioned previously, I'd also seriously look to the Mamiya version of the Aptus7-II since it is matched to the RZD you already have. Not sure if the Leaf Aptus with Mamiya mount functions without sync cables to the back ... but for sure the Mamiya RZ33 version doesn't need sync cables on the RZD.

    Read this:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/1006/10...mamiyarz33.asp

    Where it me, I get the above in a New York heart beat.

    The only Hasselblad Back I'd even recommend is the CF Muti-Shot like I currently use. In the 33 to 39 meg sized sensors like the P45, Leaf 7, and Hassey 39 meg backs ... Multi-Shot does make a considerable difference for still life work. One would need to get the latest 60 meg single shot back to come close, or the new 80 meg back to surpass it.

    The other attribute I like with the CF/MS is that it does not have a fixed mount like the Phase One or Leaf backs. It uses an iAdapter system so the back can be used on multiple brands of medium format cameras. For example I use my CF39/MS on an RZ and a Hasselblad H2F ... and could use a H1, H2, Contax 645 or Mamiya 645 if I wished. The iAdapters are user swappable and takes just a few minutes. In the case of the H2F camera, I have access to a nice range of lenses to use with Hassey's Title Shift unit.

    The only other backs that offer use on multiple MF/SLR cameras are the Sinar Backs.

    Hope this helps a little.

    -Marc

  7. #7
    Shirish1467
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    Re: P45+ or P40+ for Mamiya RZ Pro IID

    Jack

    Thank you for the inputs. As you say, the difference between Kodak and Dalsa is too subtle to tell. I think my final decision is going to be based on the P45+ sensor size being closer to the RZ 67 format.

    Shirish

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    There definitely is a difference in the way the sensors render, though it is subtle and difficult to describe; like wine aficionados discussing the subtleties between two excellent Bordeaux's. Yet if you ask anybody who has shot extensively with both, all will see it. The best way I can word it, is the Dalsa tends to show smoother tonal and color transitions, and give more real-looking saturation differentials. I've heard other folks claim the Dalsa is more "film like" in the way it renders, and I would not disagree...



    Cheers,

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