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Thread: Schneider 43XL sharpness

  1. #1
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    Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Just received my P65+, Arca M-line 2 and Schneider 43XL. Only done a coulpe of getting to know the camera shots and noticed that if I nail the focus in the centre of the image the edge of the image looked to me as it shifts focus. So, for the first time in my photographic life I decided to do the brick wall test...... YAWN :sleep006: ...... sorry!

    Camera levelled with spirit level and each standard checked. Original image centre is sharp but the top roof section is not sharp but the wall behind this is sharp(er). In order to eliminate camera and digi back, I rotated the lens 90 degrees and shot again. Hay presto, centre sharp and top roof section sharp.

    Can someone help and explain what going on or a test to let me short out if I have a lens/camera/back or user problem.

    Hope everything becomes obvious when you see the attached.

    Thanks, Gareth
    Last edited by gazwas; 11th August 2011 at 23:52.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Looks like the focus is more on the basket plane than the wall
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  3. #3
    Jim2
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    hmm on the original, the bricks above the roof are sharper. When rotating the lens fixed the focus... wouldn't you think that the lens mount needs to be 'shimmed' somehow?

  4. #4
    Jim2
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    PS I'm curious as to how you are doing the focusing? Did you look through the ground glass to focus?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    PS I'm curious as to how you are doing the focusing? Did you look through the ground glass to focus?
    Yep, focused through the GG.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    One of the trade-offs for having such a large image circle is called field curvature, which makes the plane of focus look more like a bowl than a plane and sometimes it is not 100% symmetrical. It could be that this is what you are seeing.

    But I'd call Arca as they surely know more than I do about the M !
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  7. #7
    Jim2
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Yep, focused through the GG.
    You did one heck of a fine job! I'm impressed. Do you use a loupe / magnifier? What's the strength?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    One of the trade-offs for having such a large image circle is called field curvature, which makes the plane of focus look more like a bowl than a plane and sometimes it is not 100% symmetrical. It could be that this is what you are seeing.

    But I'd call Arca as they surely know more than I do about the M !
    Think you might be right Yair. I was pixel peeping and at normal print sizes you probably would not see this. Did some further testing tethered to a laptop and it looks more like user error than lens/camera problem. What looks initially sharp in the centre can be tweaked further to become frighteningly sharp with a tiny additional focus adjustment and everything pops into focus.

    When you look at the MTF's on Schneider's site the charts also seem to suggest a sharpness fall off at the edge and by tweaking the focus seems to find a sweet spot to correct some of the possible field curvature.

    Critical focus on the P65+ is very, very critical

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    You did one heck of a fine job! I'm impressed. Do you use a loupe / magnifier? What's the strength?
    Use a 4x loupe to focus which is fine for close ups but for wide angle photography its not powerful enough and am thinking of getting a Silvestri 8x lupe to help with wide shots.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    It looks like the camera is aimed slightly up.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Gareth,
    I've also been playing with my new 43xl (on an Alpa STC). I agree there is definitely a critical sweet spot. I see it every time I go through the shimming exercise on the Alpa w/ HPF rings. I can tell the difference between 12.9 and 13.7 feet. And that's on a 43mm. You should see how sensitive the 100HR is! I'm getting a Leica Disto...

    By the way, have you shifted much? Nasty color cast on mine w/ a P65+. Seems to fix pretty well with an LCC though. Example below at max shift on the STC which is 18mm.

    Dave

    Last edited by dchew; 16th April 2011 at 12:09. Reason: Added image

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    It looks like the camera is aimed slightly up.
    That's a possibility but I checked, then re-checked with a level on multiple surfaces for the test above. Also when rotating the lens 90 degrees it removed the issue. Although looking at how small a movement of the focus rail in needed to adjust focus, a degree or two off level might be contributing. Done some further tests and getting better results but I really need a higher powered loupe to critically focus on the GG..... 8x or 10x I'm thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Gareth,
    I've also been playing with my new 43xl (on an Alpa STC). I agree there is definitely a critical sweet spot. I see it every time I go through the shimming exercise on the Alpa w/ HPF rings. I can tell the difference between 12.9 and 13.7 feet. And that's on a 43mm. You should see how sensitive the 100HR is! I'm getting a Leica Disto...

    By the way, have you shifted much? Nasty color cast on mine w/ a P65+. Seems to fix pretty well with an LCC though.

    Dave
    Hi Dave, I don't have the luxury of using a Disto on an M-Line but I'm working hard on my focusing technique. I have done some shift tests and noted the colour shifts but I was expecting this so didn't really shock me. What did surprise me however was the amount of fall off on the P65+ with the 43XL with zero movements. Thought it would be better for some reason and no problem to correct in C1. When you take the GG off and see how close the rear element of the lens is its not surprising and a pretty amazing achievement by Schenider IMO.

    One thing about the 43XL and P65+ is when you nail the focus its astonishingly sharp. Never seen a wide lens as sharp before!

  12. #12
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    One thing about the 43XL and P65+ is when you nail the focus its astonishingly sharp. Never seen a wide lens as sharp before!
    Completely agree. I expected to sacrifice some sharpness for image circle, but I don't know how it could be much sharper. Seems just as sharp as my 100HR-S, but there may be some uncontrollable perception in that evaluation!

    Dave

  13. #13
    Jim2
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    By the way,what made you guys choose 43XL over 47XL ?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    By the way,what made you guys choose 43XL over 47XL ?
    the 43 is sharper in the angles, and is getting sharp one stop before the 47.

    i'm using a 35XL... i've start with a beautiful F line 69, and is was really difficult to deal with field curvature... when i've bought the RM3D, this problem disappear... from then, i can focus on framing... focusing on a ground glass can be a nightmare sometimes !

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Consensus seems to be that if you're buying new today that the 43 is the one to go for.

    The old 47XL APO-Digitar doesn't do so bad though - P40+ (err, ignore the dust bunnies & I should have LCC'd this too):
    http://www.grahamwelland.com/DVSaltCrystals/index.htm
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post

    i'm using a 35XL... i've start with a beautiful F line 69, and is was really difficult to deal with field curvature... when i've bought the RM3D, this problem disappear... from then, i can focus on framing... focusing on a ground glass can be a nightmare sometimes !
    Hi Archive, so you think this is what I'm seeing on the M-Line?

    Why woukd the RM3D not show this as I thought feild curvature is a lens issue not are camera one?

    I'm going to pruchase a stronger loupe and do some more testing next week as with a 4x you just can't be sure you've nailed the focus.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Field curvature is a characteristic of the lens - period. Not sure how the RM3D is supposed to change that
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    the RM3D doesn't change it, but using the focusing ring you have it calibrated for the good balance... between center and corner... that's it !

    i've test a lot of loupe, and find out that for me (i wear glasses with a small correction)... the more convenient one, was the big rodenstock !

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    the RM3D doesn't change it, but using the focusing ring you have it calibrated for the good balance... between center and corner... that's it !
    Aha. Well, yes that makes sense. Nice compromise solution actually to be able to auto dial in your mid-point correction for the lens/sensor pair to accomodate, albeit I guess giving up ultimate sharpness in the centre.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  20. #20
    smei_ch
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That's a possibility but I checked, then re-checked with a level on multiple surfaces for the test above. Also when rotating the lens 90 degrees it removed the issue. Although looking at how small a movement of the focus rail in needed to adjust focus, a degree or two off level might be contributing. ..........
    When rotating the lens changes the focus, then there must be some manufacturing problems/misalignments.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    By the way,what made you guys choose 43XL over 47XL ?
    The 43xl is the widest lens I have and I plan to keep it that way. I originally thought of getting a 35 and a 47 or 50, but then decided to cover both with one lens, the 43.

    And yes, rumor is that the 43xl is slightly better than the 47.

    Dave

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    The 43xl is the widest lens I have and I plan to keep it that way.
    Hee hee ... we'll see. If I had $10 for every time I've heard the same comment regarding equipment I'd be a rich man. (this comes from a man pulling together the war chest to pay for the IQ & Alpa/SK APO-Helvetar 28 additions himself - that I swore I don't need either!)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Come on Graham, let me keep lying to myself for a little while. LOL.

    I'm already planning to break my three lens limit: 43, 100, 150. I'm thinking of a 70 or 72 as well.

    Ah, the slippery slope...

    Dave

  24. #24
    Jim2
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    how about the 120? I am thinking of getting that one

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Thanks everyone for your replies. So it seems field curvature is the culprit and as adjustments after sharp centre focus is sometime needed on any camera. Good to know it's not my new equipment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    how about the 120? I am thinking of getting that one
    Jim, IMO I think the choice of lens is pretty much dependant on your field of photography. I have a 120 Schneider on order but it seem Schneider has none in stock and not sure when they will. Don't know why but mine has been on order with my UK dealer 8 weeks. I'm shooting mainly product and interiors and the 120mm is a really nice short telephoto for tabletop product shots but if I was a landscape photographer a 120mm IMO is not telephpto enough and would prefer something a little wider like a 90mm or a proper telephoto like the 150mm.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I have a 120 Schneider on order but it seem Schneider has none in stock and not sure when they will. Don't know why but mine has been on order with my UK dealer 8 weeks. I'm shooting mainly product and interiors and the 120mm is a really nice short telephoto for tabletop product shots
    did you consider that one...


    120/5.6 Apo Macro Sironar Digital

    Specifications
    Optical Construction - 8 elements in 6 groups
    Image Circle
    At 1:5 [1/5 Life Size] - 150mm @ f11 - covers 37x 49mm sensor
    [allows shift of up to 53mm vertically and 49mm horizontally on a 37x49mm sensor]
    At 1:1 [Life Size] - 150mm @ f11- covers 37x 49mm sensor
    [allows shift of up to 53mm vertically and 49mm horizontally on a 37x49mm sensor]
    At 2:1 [2x Life Size] - 150mm @ f11 - covers 37x 49mm sensor
    [allows shift of up to 53mm vertically and 49mm horizontally on a 36x48mm sensor]
    At 1:5 and beyond, the lens is useable in the aperture range f8 to f11 due to increasing diffraction effects
    Flange to focal distance at 1:1 [Life Size] - approx. 236mm
    Filter Size - 49mm
    Weight - 220g in Copal shutter

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    did you consider that one...


    120/5.6 Apo Macro Sironar Digital
    Hi Archive, I did consider the R and S Macro lenses but my dealer seem to think for my type of work not in the 1:4/1:5 range the standard lens would be better. The image circles are quoted at these magnifications and not sure when further away from the subject. Also the Macro's are optimised at f5.6 he thought.

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    I own both lenses :
    APO-MACRO SIRONAR 5,6/120 and the
    APO-MACRO SIRONAR DIGITAL 5,6/120

    I have used both lenses for many product shots but can not see any differences in image quality between the two .
    Used backs were CFV-16 and CFV-39 .

    In my opinion , the buy of the digital lens was a waste of money .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by smei_ch View Post
    When rotating the lens changes the focus, then there must be some manufacturing problems/misalignments.
    Or the action of removing and replacing the lens moved the front standard slightly. One of the issues with a bellows camera and wide lenses is keeping the front and back exactly parallel. Camera levels are rarely exact, and hand held levels are only as accurate as the user/place they are measuring.

    It's more likely the reason the person who has better luck with his pancake camera than his 6*9 bellows camera is the lens and back are closer to parallel than any field curvature change resulting from a new focus method.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I own both lenses :
    APO-MACRO SIRONAR 5,6/120 and the
    APO-MACRO SIRONAR DIGITAL 5,6/120

    I have used both lenses for many product shots but can not see any differences in image quality between the two .
    Used backs were CFV-16 and CFV-39 .

    In my opinion , the buy of the digital lens was a waste of money .
    Jurgen,
    The pixel pitch on your backs is not fine enough for you to see a difference.
    When you get yourself an 80Mp back (You know you will) I'm guessing you will notice the value of the digi lens.
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Jurgen,
    The pixel pitch on your backs is not fine enough for you to see a difference.
    When you get yourself an 80Mp back (You know you will) I'm guessing you will notice the value of the digi lens.
    Cheers,
    OK

    Now , as you mention the pixel pitch , you will probably be right . I did not think of that .
    The APO-MACRO-DIGITAL lens is still in my hands and I will not through it away , but wait for an 80MP back to arrive and then give it an other try .

    Thanks for the hint .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    There is one thing that one can use to judge lens resolution when using a lower density sensor when one lens may outresolve another.
    The lens with higher resolution will have greater depth of field on any sensor.

    Before you go and dismiss this you must first understand the theory behind the circle of confusion.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Shot the 43mm on the RM2d yesterday with the new IQ 180 back



    crop

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Guy,

    Interesting to see that the first shot looks like it would benefit from LCC correction - maybe it's just lighting/image scaling but the bottom right corner definitely seems to have a magenta tinge to it. I wonder if the 80mp backs exacerbate the LCC issues vs say a P65+ or other backs/sensors.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Graham I did not notice this until this morning or I would have went back and shot it. But i have seen this before in asphalt here in Phoenix that it can go purple but whats bugging me is it is in a weird spot that throws up a red flag. Going to see if we shot anything else i don't believe we did
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Guy, has your image above not got any LCC applied?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    No LCC applied at all. Straight out of the can did not want to do anything to it so you folks can get a idea. Looking at it besides that purple which is unknown at this time I think maybe a LCC could help it. Hard to say, I'm seeing magenta on the right upper sky. Do you see that as well.

    If you folks want the raw I can load that up with yousend it to myself and post the link
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    I'm seeing something down the middle of the frame but its hard to tell with all the mottled light through the trees.

    My copy of the 43XL has similar megenta colour shifts and was wondering how the new chip compaired to my P65. Did you shoot an LCC?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    No we totally spaced it we where in a hurry to get back to the training
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    I know Terry's was shipped to her and she should be getting her IQ 180 soon so maybe she can try this out again.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    My copy is just not usable without an LCC because of the magenta cast. It's only faint and easy to remove in C1 but it's there. I was quite surprised first time I shot with it as I was only expecting the casts with some movements applied.

    Nice sharp lens but I wonder how the Rodie 40HRW compares colour cast wise?

  42. #42
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Gareth are you using c1 version 6.2 by chance or 6.1
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    The latest version 6.2. You got some secret tips?

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    That was it. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    My copy is just not usable without an LCC because of the magenta cast. It's only faint and easy to remove in C1 but it's there. I was quite surprised first time I shot with it as I was only expecting the casts with some movements applied.

    Nice sharp lens but I wonder how the Rodie 40HRW compares colour cast wise?
    The HR-W, being a retrofocal lens is better in terms of colour cast and falloff but I would still perform some form of calibration if I shift it and wanted clean sky, snow etc.
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    My copy is just not usable without an LCC because of the magenta cast. It's only faint and easy to remove in C1 but it's there. I was quite surprised first time I shot with it as I was only expecting the casts with some movements applied.
    I have been shooting with a P65+ for about a year now and have found the software LCC correction in C1 up to the job with all but the most extreme shifts.
    When I got my Aptus 12, I did notice significantly deeper magenta cast than with the P65 at the same shift. I am expecting my IQ180 will be the same. I understand the latest version of C1 has addressed this with expanded LCC capability.
    I'll share my observations once I've run some tests (The IQ only arrived this morning)
    Siebel
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I'll share my observations once I've run some tests (The IQ only arrived this morning)
    Thanks, that would be an interesting comparison.

    A little update on on my sharpness, Arca M2 issues for those interested in this lens/camera combo.

    I still wasn't happy with the top to bottom sharpness from my lens so I decided to try with a different lens panel. I was using the 15mm recessed and it was a nightmare to adjust the aperture and cock the shutter without looking at the lens. My reason for the recessed panel was due to the symetrical design of the Schneider, the flange to focal distance of 49mm meant very little distance between lens and sensor for movements and my dealer recommended the 15mm panel.

    After owning the camera for a couple of weeks I did some measurments and I felt I would just get away using a flat panel so I ordered one. What an improvement. No sharpness problems any more and so much easier to use. And the bonus is there is plenty of space with the ultra wide bellows for plenty of movement. 20mm or more in any direction no problem. Not sure how using with a sliding back would effect things but without its fine. Don't know why the recessed caused these issues. Possibly I mounted the lens wrong or the panel was slightly out somewhere or most possibly user error but I'm getting along much better with the flat lens panel.

    Hope this helps someone interested in this combo because these simple things make all the difference and when I was buying the kit I couldn't find any info on the internet about thse types of trivial but inprotant things.

  48. #48
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    on the back of the copal shutter, sometimes there's a prohiminent little screw... really handy to eliminate rotation of the lens... but if there's no hole on the lensboard, then you need to remove it, otherwise it won't be // ...

    anyway, using arca stuff for years... i just hate 15mm recessed panel... but the 7mm is a good compromise... but it depends on lens also !

  49. #49
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    on the back of the copal shutter, sometimes there's a prohiminent little screw... really handy to eliminate rotation of the lens... but if there's no hole on the lensboard, then you need to remove it, otherwise it won't be // ...
    Very good point and that should be mentioned for people new to Schneider lenses. When mine arrived I didn't know if I could remove the tiny screw or not and was scared the lens would fall apart..... it didn't.

  50. #50
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    Re: Schneider 43XL sharpness

    Just another post for those interested in what the brochures and MTF charts can't tell you. Attached is an LCC shot ready for correction in Capture One just to illustrate to would be purchasers the colour casts and fall off associated with this lens. The images are with a full frame P65+ Dalsa chip at f11 in the zero position uncorrected and corrected in C1 LCC.

    Please excuse the dust.
    Last edited by gazwas; 11th August 2011 at 23:52.

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