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Thread: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

  1. #51
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Of course you are right Sergei but nobody can do that with a water pistol, so am trying to figure out the technical constraints of the technology before signing up for a body building program
    The photographer's state of body and mind do make a difference, and on long days with 4kg cameras strength would make a difference, but consciously relaxing mentally while bracing yourself physically can make a big difference.

  2. #52
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Ok then what is the slowest ss you hand hold your 28+ MP MFDB & 80mm focal length lens with acceptable results (along the lines specified in my previous post) on a good day?

    If you could post a 100 % crop with no sharpening from relevant part of a sample image that would be even more useful.

  3. #53
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Hello, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I have a Pentax 645D and I have not found it anymore difficult to hand hold than other cameras. I previously used medium-format film cameras--6x6 and 6x12. I can use the camera with a 55mm lens at 1/60 or 1/125 with very consistent results. Because I like to hold my cameras in very dark conditions (tripods are not my thing), I test and practice with my gear. I have 1:3 or 1:2 chance of getting a sharp image at an 1/8 of a second with that lens as well. That surprised me as I usually don't like cameras with mirrors.

    As pointed out, this is my mileage, yours my vary. But hand holding medium-format digital cameras is not a Herculean task.

    One other point. A 100% crop is not an ideal target simply because it does not represent a real viewing condition. An image is either going to be printed or displayed online. 100% does not accurately represent sharpness regardless of the final image size.

  4. #54
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Ok, I'm convinced: forget about 1:3 or 1:2 - according to Shashin this can be done at ss 1/8 second that correct me if I calculate wrong is about 7 times less than focal length. Looks like time to sign up for that Zen Body-building course.

    Sure 100% crop is not an ideal target for MFDB images that are going to be presented online as 5x7 72 dpi jpgs. However if this is how you present your work why shoot with MFDB?

    If the image is printed quite large for example at 1 meters x 2 meters or larger at 300 dpi then what the sharpness of a "little" (compared to full-res scan of 4x5 neg) MFDB file looks like at 100% is relevant; at least I have found printing at this size exposes everything both good and bad that can be extracted from the original digital file. Hence my original question.
    Last edited by lowep; 13th May 2011 at 11:41.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    The thing about shooting handheld is that the results are also heavily dependent upon the focal length being used and to a certain degree on the subject too. Personally since I shoot primarily landscapes I find shooting MF handheld for those types of images a waste of time & opportunity. For other types of subject such as portraiture I'm certain that you'd find the results much more acceptable. I can shoot much slower with a RF than I can with a MF DSLR. I can shoot comparable speeds with a MF DSLR as I can with a 35mm DSLR, although I do very much appreciate the advantages of image stabilization with the smaller format!!

    There really isn't a single definitive answer here other than 'recommendations'. You can improve your handheld technique to get very acceptable results at even low shutter speeds but don't expect 100% keepers with critical sharpness. If you want that use a stable tripod, mirror lock up, cable release or a camera system without mirrors etc.

    Ultimately you need to try it yourself and see how well YOU can handhold and under what circumstances.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  6. #56
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Followed your suggestion and tried this myself today with eMotion75 + Contax 645 + 80mm lens:

    shutter speed 125 = not good enough for big prints
    shutter speed 250 = 50/50
    shutter speed 500 = good enough for big prints

    Not surprisingly when I reduced the image size of the 32MP files in photoshop by 50% (ie roughly 16MP camera image size simulation mode?) everything looked better ie images shot at shutter speed 250 looked "good enough" and the ones shot at 125 looked more like 50/50 -- though this does not take into consideration the design advantages of a DSLR system compared to a MFDB such as less weight.

    So am thinking about sticking with trying to handhold this beast - maybe with a monopod - though when I tried the same "test" as above with the camera on my tripod with just one leg of the tripod extended (ie what NASA would call "monopod simulation mode") the results were worse than plain hand held don't ask me why? - probably because Manfrotto never designed my tripod to act as a monopod?


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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    The thing about shooting handheld is that the results are also heavily dependent upon the focal length being used and to a certain degree on the subject too. Personally since I shoot primarily landscapes I find shooting MF handheld for those types of images a waste of time & opportunity. For other types of subject such as portraiture I'm certain that you'd find the results much more acceptable. I can shoot much slower with a RF than I can with a MF DSLR. I can shoot comparable speeds with a MF DSLR as I can with a 35mm DSLR, although I do very much appreciate the advantages of image stabilization with the smaller format!!

    There really isn't a single definitive answer here other than 'recommendations'. You can improve your handheld technique to get very acceptable results at even low shutter speeds but don't expect 100% keepers with critical sharpness. If you want that use a stable tripod, mirror lock up, cable release or a camera system without mirrors etc.

    Ultimately you need to try it yourself and see how well YOU can handhold and under what circumstances.
    I really can't add much to what Graham already expressed. There is no one specific rule in regards to exactly what shutter speeds and what kinds of support may or may not be necessary when shooting say MFD for example. It not only varies by equipment but differences between an individual's capabilities and also their requirements in regards to output.

    Where some may find observing results by looking at actual pxiels (100% crops) not truly realistic or representing the kind of output they require, some find it absolutely maditory (and required)...especially for output to large format prints. I am in the latter camp.

    Keep in mind that there will be times when the opportunity to photograph something might be a "one time occasion only", so extracting the best possible image quailty with your equipment on hand may be important, even though the immediate use of the image may be for web viewing. One never knows when the desire to print that image fairly large may be something that's wanted, down the road.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 14th May 2011 at 13:01.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    "Keep in mind that there will be times when the opportunity to photograph something might be a "one time occasion only", so extracting the best possible image quailty with your equipment on hand may be important"

    option 1) risk shooting MFDB hand held?

    option 2) don't move off the tripod and lose the shot that way?

    option 3) secure the shot with a DSLR that is easier to hand hold but cannot provide comparable IQ

    option 4) Zen body building course

    option 5) hire Zen body builder to take the shot for you

  9. #59
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    "Keep in mind that there will be times when the opportunity to photograph something might be a "one time occasion only", so extracting the best possible image quailty with your equipment on hand may be important"

    option 1) risk shooting MFDB hand held?

    option 2) don't move off the tripod and lose the shot that way?

    option 3) secure the shot with a DSLR that is easier to hand hold but cannot provide comparable IQ

    option 4) Zen body building course

    option 5) hire Zen body builder to take the shot for you
    Zen body builder can "lift up" and hold steady the equipment, but may not have technical expertise to aquire the best shot. Instead:

    option 6) Take along (ie: all expenses paid) a well qualified Getdpi member with their associated photo equipment to work out the details and "get the shot", while you relax nearby with a cold drink, acting in the role of art director.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 14th May 2011 at 15:50.

  10. #60
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    zen body building + technical expertise + associated photo equipment, is that all it takes?

  11. #61
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Surgeons and water drinkers, how about photographers?
    well i had uber odd shake today, when came home after morning shoot and before evening shoot. Checked all images from morning - handheld LF - where i didnt good up focus - things were good.

    Sat down before evening shoot, set up lights, and just calmed down , while model was making her way to the spot, which is ended up being quite nice 35 minutes meditation.

    Got quite nice handheld results with 180mm , shooting at 1/30 on RZ on my Aptus54s (22mp). And 270mm at 1/50 on LF (just developed 6x9s , couldnot be bothered with 4x5 right now, plus they were shot with tripod).

    PS : i do need to get new ballhead. That marumi head starts to crap out on me. Or just find way to tighten bloody thing

  12. #62
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    zen body building + technical expertise + associated photo equipment, is that all it takes?
    ...no - you also need to be and artist!

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