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Thread: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

  1. #151
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I use my MF backs on an Alpa or an Artec. I use an S2 like an SLR. At the moment I have an as new D3 sitting in its box with a bunch of equally boring Nikon lenses in their boxes. Happy to have the hassle of a tech camera to make tech camera shots.

    @3k for a new body that provides the utility of this new generation camera is not a big deal in the scheme of things- maybe less than half the cost of one S2 lens so I might cough up for one.

    People that use MF backs tend to understand what 35mm cameras are good for and what MF backs are good for.

    The idea of one camera to do all things - exists only in the mind of people who dont really do much shooting as far as variety goes.

    One thing that has become apparent over the years is that it is very easy to collect stuff - especially new fangled gee wizz stuff from 35mm land - these days pretty much any camera one purchases is very capable of making nice snaps. If you want something a bit better than a nice happy snap - well you need to put up with the hassle of MF etc.

    one aside- if anyone thinks that a 35 megapixels on a 35mm sensor is going to be an easy camera to handhold and get decent results- you may be disappointed.

    Pete
    Last edited by PeterA; 26th February 2012 at 17:02. Reason: spelling

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Seriously folks you are missing a key point.
    For those of us who do not have a regular exercise routine, shooting MF is the closest we get.
    How can some lightweight D800 compare to a DF, a 75-150 and an IQ180? I might have to cut my gin consumption if I give that up.

    NEVER I say! (well maybe never)
    -bob
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Seriously folks you are missing a key point.
    For those of us who do not have a regular exercise routine, shooting MF is the closest we get.
    How can some lightweight D800 compare to a DF, a 75-150 and an IQ180? I might have to cut my gin consumption if I give that up.

    NEVER I say! (well maybe never)
    -bob
    And we haven't even started to discuss tripods. Tripods are cool.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  4. #154
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Well... I started the thread because I read about a clearly competent professional photographer who has used the D800 and and is mighty impressed by it and has made his own judgement about it in relation to MF.
    Maybe 'cuz I'm getting old, maybe 'cuz of the BS program last month by a Canon Explorer of Light, I'm no longer impressed by celebrity endorsements. I've learned to trust my own eyes.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    And we haven't even started to discuss tripods. Tripods are cool.
    Hee Hee - my weapon of choice is the 5561SGT with cube. Combine that with the DF/IQ160/75-150, 28D, 35D, 55LS & 300 APO kit I wear on a belt along with grads and you'll get quite the workout. Mine's surgeon recommended so I'm ok with that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    How can some lightweight D800 compare to a DF, a 75-150 and an IQ180? I might have to cut my gin consumption if I give that up.

    NEVER I say! (well maybe never)
    -bob
    Btw Bob, you should try 2xD3s, 14-24, 24-70, 70-200VR & 200-400VR in a kuboto bag and trying valiantly to convince the Lufthansa gate agent that the bag is light and only weighs 20lb. That was a groaner that even a couple of D800s wouldn't have changed!

    No gin? Now we're talking heresy!!!! Noooooooo ....
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  6. #156
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Statistically insignificant. This amounts to an on-line focus group, and if you've ever observed focus groups, you'd know that what people say and what they do are two totally different matters.

    Without a research moderator to control the interactive dynamics, it's even less than statistically insignificant.
    Marc,

    I've edited my post and put a smiley face in so readers will understand the jest. The other part i'm sticking with

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Perhaps a poll should be taken to gauge how many MFD owners will add a D800 or potential MFD owners who will now purchase a D800 instead.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I would you rather poll the micro brews members enjoy the most. At least we might get some good information out of it.
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    This not-so-potential MFD owner will skip the D800 and spend the money on a Fuji GX680, some lenses and piles of b&w film of assorted speeds, grains and brands. Then, if there's any money left (as if there were any to start with ), he'll go to Tawan Dang at Pra Ram III with some friends and have a beer or five.

    :: TAWANDANG MICROBREWERY ::

    Both questions answered?

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    ......snip......
    When do we as a business say I can get near that quality with a Nikon/Canon and is more economical to invest my money there?

    The niche for MFD may have just got a bit smaller and that is bad news IMO!
    That's the real potential impact of high-res 35mm cameras.

    The MFD market is tiny. If they were animals they would be on the endangered list and close to the top.

    What studio would look beyond the bottom line? which is not "is a D800 (or Canon whatever) as good as a MFD" the bottom line is "Is a D800 good enough".

    Now people use analogies like high end cars or computer servers to illustrate why nothing can possibly affect the survival of the MFD survival, none of these analogies take into account how much more fragile the MFD model is and how much higher it is on the endangered list.

    I dont think anyone would want the MFD to dissapear but they have to get cheaper and more realistic, they have to compete. The upward creep in prices by MFD companies is as harmful as the 35mm erosion.

    An example of 'competing' would be when Phase released their new IQ backs...the price should have the same as the backs they currently offered not 10 or 15 grand more (e.g. IQ40 should have replaced P40)... Now the MFD suppliers would laugh at that idea but there you go- one step higher on the endangered list for you...
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    That's the real potential impact of high-res 35mm cameras.

    The MFD market is tiny. If they were animals they would be on the endangered list and close to the top.

    What studio would look beyond the bottom line? which is not "is a D800 (or Canon whatever) as good as a MFD" the bottom line is "Is a D800 good enough".

    Now people use analogies like high end cars or computer servers to illustrate why nothing can possibly affect the survival of the MFD survival, none of these analogies take into account how much more fragile the MFD model is and how much higher it is on the endangered list.

    I dont think anyone would want the MFD to dissapear but they have to get cheaper and more realistic, they have to compete. The upward creep in prices by MFD companies is as harmful as the 35mm erosion.

    An example of 'competing' would be when Phase released their new IQ backs...the price should have the same as the backs they currently offered not 10 or 15 grand more (e.g. IQ40 should have replaced P40)... Now the MFD suppliers would laugh at that idea but there you go- one step higher on the endangered list for you...
    Sorry but your "if they were animals" analogy is ridiculous. Low numbers does not equal endangered. It's not like the MFD companies used to produce millions of backs a year and now they're down to a few hundred.

    Should MFD backs be cheaper? Sure. Preferably free so I can afford to get one.
    It's simply pointless to talk about what the price 'should' be if you don't know the numbers behind it. I'm sure they could lower the price a bit but how much? Cetainly not enough to get into mid-range Canon and Nikon territory.
    And if they lowered the price of e.g. a $36k back to $30k, would that really attract 20%+ additional business? (Which actually still wouldn't make up for the loss as this doesn't factor in the additional manufactoring costs)

    I'm sure all the MFD makers are constantly looking at changes in the market and trying to adapt. If they find that they can make more money by lowering their prices, I'm sure that's exactly what they'll do.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    That's the real potential impact of high-res 35mm cameras.

    The MFD market is tiny. If they were animals they would be on the endangered list and close to the top.

    What studio would look beyond the bottom line? which is not "is a D800 (or Canon whatever) as good as a MFD" the bottom line is "Is a D800 good enough".

    Now people use analogies like high end cars or computer servers to illustrate why nothing can possibly affect the survival of the MFD survival, none of these analogies take into account how much more fragile the MFD model is and how much higher it is on the endangered list.

    I dont think anyone would want the MFD to dissapear but they have to get cheaper and more realistic, they have to compete. The upward creep in prices by MFD companies is as harmful as the 35mm erosion.

    An example of 'competing' would be when Phase released their new IQ backs...the price should have the same as the backs they currently offered not 10 or 15 grand more (e.g. IQ40 should have replaced P40)... Now the MFD suppliers would laugh at that idea but there you go- one step higher on the endangered list for you...
    This indeed will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I actually wouldn't argue against your theory ... yet I also wonder if this doesn't actually free the MFD makers from catering to the lower end of the high resolution market? What is not very well understood by non-MFD users is how addictive really high res capture can be. I use a 60 meg system that no 35mm DSLR can compete with, yet is versatile enough that it can also be used for more regular work ... and every lens is a Leaf Shutter for 1/800th flash sync that no 35mm DSLR has. Not important to most, but extremely important to many who make money with their gear, and thus have money to buy the best. 60 meg is great, but what I really want is the same camera with 200 meg Multi-shot capability ... and actually have applications for that.

    Interesting factoid related to all this ... many of the major photo studios in my area have gone belly up in the last 5 or 6 years. Yet some are thriving ... one in particular is absolutely booming with 9 different photo stations running 12 to 15 hours a day non-stop. I had dinner with the owner and asked him what the secret was ... his simple answer was to beat all the "good enough" studios. He invested in Dedolite lighting and so much Profoto gear that he became a Profoto rental outlet, and armed all work stations with Hasselblad MFD systems or backs on T/S cameras, even though for some applications 35mm DSLRs may be "good-enough." The result of this studio's meticulous approach to unquestioned quality has been far less retouching expenses for his clients which they in-turn view as high value and worth paying him more for. It has also drawn in new international accounts and he is now expanding. Now he'll need more cameras ... and they won't be 35mm DSLRs of any flavor even if they go to 50+ meg ... he knows the difference.

    -Marc

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    41 MP, Zeiss optics, 350 Euro and it makes calls too. I wonder if anyone will give up the D800?

    Nokia announces 808 PureView: Belle OS, 4-inch display, 41-megapixel camera(!) -- we go hands-on (video) -- Engadget

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    41 MP, Zeiss optics, 350 Euro and it makes calls too. I wonder if anyone will give up the D800?

    Nokia announces 808 PureView: Belle OS, 4-inch display, 41-megapixel camera(!) -- we go hands-on (video) -- Engadget
    super, and no more of those pesky lenses to buy.
    -bob

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Seriously, it is all about the whole kit.
    I do have both d800 and d800e on order so when I give them a spin then we will see.
    what I am hoping for is that it will be a useful carry-around medium weight camera suitable for travel with a 2-3 lens kit.
    What I am afraid of is that either I won't like the files or that the lenses are not up to the task.

    patience patience....

    BUT I will make a prediction, that despite how I feel about the D800 and its potential use in-studio or travel, I will still find the tech camera plus rode and sk lenses plus IQ180 to be a totally satisfying and preferred landscape shooting kit. Those lenses are a complete joy to work with.
    -bob

    I once witnessed a shooter with D3 and tripod, shooting a lighthouse in full auto machine-gun mode. I wonder what the heck he was going to do with all of those files.

    A question for all of those thermodynamics nerds out there: Does a storage card full of images have more or less entropy than a blank one?
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Bob Wrote--->>>"A question for all of those thermodynamics nerds out there: Does a storage card full of images have more or less entropy than a blank one?"<<<

    What it does is allow them to exclaim to those tourists and other photographers passing by (and shooting with their cell phones and tech cameras) that he just obtained 2,157 images of that lighthouse and ask "What say you?" When people respond with "Wow, you did that"....this in turn provides the secondary incentive (energy) for him to run out quickly and purchase more and larger capacity cards in order to fill them up too...LOL!

    Hey, now you see why out of all my science requirements, I did miserably in physics!

    For me what is interesting in all this, is there was a recent 35mm DSLR released that surprised people with its higher than expected resolution and I too got caught up with some of the hype. I personally was severely disappointed with the look of the files, once I had a chance to intensly work with the images from that camera, utilizing the best possible optics and careful technique. Will the D800/D800e turn out the same? Impossible to say until it's in all our hands and we can thus make a reasonable and rational assessment.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 27th February 2012 at 05:48.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Entropy is related (somehow) to the number of bits needed to specify the total information. A blank card can be described with very few bits. The problem, though, is that I can never remember the sign. Let's see...if entropy is supposed to increase with disorder, then a blank card must have low entropy. Now 2000 identical pictures of a lighthouse has very little more information than one picture, so it's not a LOT higher entropy.

    --Matt (Mathematician, not Physicist, so salt, grain, large )

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Nokia just announced the N808 with a 41MP sensor...Nikon must be shi*ing itself....
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    super, and no more of those pesky lenses to buy.
    -bob
    Buy two and you can replace any 80MP MFD dinosaur as well

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    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Nokia just announced the N808 with a 41MP sensor...Nikon must be shi*ing itself....
    Hands On With the 41-Megapixel Nokia PureView 808 | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

    Looks like the smartphones push the dslr, the dslr pushes the mfd.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Nokia just announced the N808 with a 41MP sensor...Nikon must be shi*ing itself....


    I bet you that Nikon are not so arrogant that they dont watch trends, so silly as it may sound they wont want camera phones eroding any of their coolpix market , which of course digicams will just as 35mm will erode market share of MFD.

    And there you have it in a nutshell. The bottom feeders keep taking bites out of those above them. Only problem is if your the top feeders as the only thing you can take a bite out of is each other.

    Nice observation Yair

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    [QUOTE=Bob;393683]Seriously, it is all about the whole kit.
    I do have both d800 and d800e on order so when I give them a spin then we will see.
    what I am hoping for is that it will be a useful carry-around medium weight camera suitable for travel with a 2-3 lens kit.


    -bob


    Exactly, a decent kit for the 80% of time when you don't need a MFD. or when shoots require a sports, fast action - type scenario. Plus, you won't cringe when you ding it, like I know I would with the S2. These new 35mm DSLR's from Nikon, Canon, etc. are perfect for overlapping formats and situations, much like a zoom lens would for focal lengths. When the new thread " Fun with D800 images" shows up on this site, then we can argue again

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    A question for all of those thermodynamics nerds out there: Does a storage card full of images have more or less entropy than a blank one?
    In thermodynamic terms, it has slightly less entropy while you're doing the shooting, but writing uses little enough energy that the temperature will quickly fade to ambient.

    I suspect in this case you're more interested in Shannon's definition of entropy than the one from thermodynamics though. By this definition, a storage card full of images would have more entropy than a blank one.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Horses for courses - I'm looking forward to getting back in to 35mm DSLR territory so that I can shoot night images of star fields and trails and for general smaller travel system use. The Nikon D series cameras do a great job with these kinds of images. All of my experiments with MFDBs have sucked badly with star shooting for night shots. (I'm sure that if I had an equatorial mount and stacked images it would be fabulous but ... ).

    For everything else I still like the look of medium format.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Entropy is related (somehow) to the number of bits needed to specify the total information. A blank card can be described with very few bits. The problem, though, is that I can never remember the sign. Let's see...if entropy is supposed to increase with disorder, then a blank card must have low entropy. Now 2000 identical pictures of a lighthouse has very little more information than one picture, so it's not a LOT higher entropy.

    --Matt (Mathematician, not Physicist, so salt, grain, large )
    Maybe we should try Ontology then ..... gives a bit more freedom in interpretation .....

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I once witnessed a shooter with D3 and tripod, shooting a lighthouse in full auto machine-gun mode. I wonder what the heck he was going to do with all of those files.
    oh, oh, oh, I know, I know (holds up hand at the back of the class) ... he was having to exposure bracket for HDR because his camera blew out the highlights or blocked out the shadows on every frame. Now the fun part is matching up those images with a moving sea (been there, done that, not going back!)

    DR baby, that's where we should be spending the R&D money for what really makes a difference in real world shooting. I'd take a 16mp camera with 15 stops of DR any day over 36mp with todays 35mm DSLR DR. (and I don't care what DXO claim)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    oh, oh, oh, I know, I know (holds up hand at the back of the class) ... he was having to exposure bracket for HDR because his camera blew out the highlights or blocked out the shadows on every frame. Now the fun part is matching up those images with a moving sea (been there, done that, not going back!)

    DR baby, that's where we should be spending the R&D money for what really makes a difference in real world shooting. I'd take a 16mp camera with 15 stops of DR any day over 36mp with todays 35mm DSLR DR. (and I don't care what DXO claim)
    LOL, and I do not believe what DxO claims.
    -bob

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    LOL, and I do not believe what DxO claims.
    -bob
    I'm sure there are great reasons not to but, though I wasn't mad on the files from my briefly owned d7000 (mainly because most of the glass i had wasn't up to it I suspect) it was pretty hard to find a scene that gave flashing reds and blues...

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    My challenge with the 35mm DR isn't so much that it'll totally blow out highlights/shadows so much as it'll just do it on one or other channel.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  30. #180
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I believe what DxO says to the extent that I think they do their best to give an accurate report of what they've measured.

    I don't, however, believe that most of what they measure has much relevance to photography. Worse, I think the little that may be relevant is measured (and/or presented) in a way that makes that relevance difficult to understand and the data difficult to use.

    That means (at best) most of the data probably only means anything in a relative sense, not an absolute one. When they say camera A has 12.2 stops of dynamic range and camera B has 12.7 stops, that probably means camera B has a little more dynamic range than camera A -- but not much more than that.

    Even that, however, may be somewhat suspect -- nothing I've seen about their test procedures gives a solid assurance that their controls are tight enough to make a half-stop difference statistically significant. That's not to say it's necessarily meaningless, only that we don't know enough to be sure that it means anything (and even then, the relevance problem means we probably don't know what it means in terms of real pictures).

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I just wonder what the reputation of DXO would be around here if there were only MF backs infront of their measurements.....
    and maybe it helps to read what they write about their methodology.

    DxOMark - Pushed ISO: Let's make it clear

    As long as the camera makers do not state this more precisely I would say: thanks for the good work and may somebody be wiser and do better....

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I do not really care for DXO tests at all and also stopped really believing Dpreview.

    I only belief what I see myself when I test a cameras and lenses. Anything else can just be a bit of steering, but the final judgement I have to make up for my own needs and senses and feel.

    I have been so often mislead by all those dance tests

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    The problem I have with DXOs tests is probably the fact that they use words like dynamic range in a completely misleading context (maybe to sound more scientific? I don't know). I would describe dynamic range as a ratio of contrast, while the DXO site puts this in relation to ISO sensitivity which imho has nothing to do with it. Why should a sensor with amplified signals be unable to capture the exact same contrast ratio than with unamplified signals (e.g. at base ISO)? And I'm not talking about A/D conversion, though it has an effect on contrast but that's another story. Then again, who am I to question their credibility...

    The experiance I've made is CCDs in any DB have 12 f stops DR. Period. Even though Phase claims the P40+, P65+ and IQ series to have 12,5 f-stops but I doubt that. Why? Half a stop is not really measurable (especially when you already have an incredible range of 12 stops...). The IQ180s sensor is the exact same as in Leafs Aptus II 12 and Leaf doesn't claim that it's got 12,5 stops... The sensors in 35mm cameras appear to have about 7 f-stops DR. What's interesting is the fact that 35mm cameras that utilize a CCD sensor also only got 7 stops DR (for example Nikon D200/D80). At least that's how I experianced it..

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    A Minority meant those that actually will use or need ALL of the features, vast lens and accessories systems or multiple light CLS techniques of a 35mm DSLR. ...
    But that is not the point, is it? The point is not those (given, very few) users who need ALL the features, the point is what this announcement will do for these users (a lot, actually) who need SOME of the features that 35mm offers and DMF doesn't, and that now can found these features together with a high-res sensor competitive (though not comparable) with DMF. I am quite sure many will be pondering wether the advantage in IQ that DMF offers will be enough to offset the other features that they need and that DMF doesn't provide, and I think some/a few/many will act accordingly.
    So, I am pretty sure this new round of 35mm bodies will cost DMF quite a bit of users. You think it won't, fine... at the end, we live in very good times, there is great gear for everyone
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    super, and no more of those pesky lenses to buy.
    -bob
    LOL, but ultimately less fun then. Nokia Samples :

    http://cdn.conversations.nokia.com.s...2/Archive2.zip

    Tom

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I once witnessed a shooter with D3 and tripod, shooting a lighthouse in full auto machine-gun mode. I wonder what the heck he was going to do with all of those files.
    In-camera dupes for all the stock agencies he works for...some habits die hard.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post

    I am quite sure many will be pondering wether the advantage in IQ that DMF offers will be enough to offset the other features that they need and that DMF doesn't provide, and I think some/a few/many will act accordingly.

    So, I am pretty sure this new round of 35mm bodies will cost DMF quite a bit of users. You think it won't, fine... at the end, we live in very good times, there is great gear for everyone
    I'm sure that the biggest impact will be on those who were considering the change to DMF as a step in terms of resolution support and colour fidelity or look. I would expect that a significant number of those folks have probably already reassessed whether they want to step up a format or go with the comfort of their existing 35mm DSLR platform. These new cameras, and whatever Sony & Canon will no doubt follow along with, most likely would encourage DSLR users to stay with 35mm. What I do know is that Nikon dealers are having a pre-order bonanza for the D800/E.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Okay all the MF folks give up you Nikon D800 camera's are going to kick our butts royally . Its a given, we just simply give up. Now all you MF folks lets start calling our dealers and see what kind of real deals we can get. Lets just give in, its a hell of a lot easier and heck we may get bargain pricing to unload these crappy 60 and 80 mpx camera. Phase and Hassy Im sure would just love to help us out.

    I may have to change the title to Nikon / Canon Wars episode 2000367891 A
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Yup, anyone with a crappy SK 110 LS or 150 LS that wants to offload their junk can give me an email and I'll take it off your hands in a week or so. That'll help you with that dirty feeling of needing to get rid of your over-hyped medium format stuff.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay all the MF folks give up you Nikon D800 camera's are going to kick our butts royally . Its a given, we just simply give up. Now all you MF folks lets start calling our dealers and see what kind of real deals we can get. Lets just give in, its a hell of a lot easier and heck we may get bargain pricing to unload these crappy 60 and 80 mpx camera. Phase and Hassy Im sure would just love to help us out.

    I may have to change the title to Nikon / Canon Wars episode 2000367891 A

    However - it's you MF folks who seem to be ordering the D800 (you,jack,bob,tim,graham,vieri just off the tip of my mind). Us sad old 35mm crew are holding back to see what's what.

    Personally, I don't think I want to swap 18mp with Leica lenses or 24 with Zeiss for 36 with Nikon lenses, at least, not without having a very good look.
    Sounds to me like more processing for equivalent results. . . . and if I really want that resolution then I'd be much better either to get into MF or an S2, or wait for the Sony equivalent with focus peaking and use it with my nice Leica R lenses You're all

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  41. #191
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Forget the D800 - the new threat to MF is Nokia's upcoming 41 Mpx camera phone presented today. Yikes.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    However - it's you MF folks who seem to be ordering the D800 (you,jack,bob,tim,graham,vieri just off the tip of my mind). Us sad old 35mm crew are holding back to see what's what.
    Jono,

    The point is, once you've paid up for MF gear, everything else seems like a screaming bargain. Add a Nikon kit? Can do that for the cost of a 28 Rodie!

    --Matt

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Horses for courses - I'm looking forward to getting back in to 35mm DSLR territory so that I can shoot night images of star fields and trails and for general smaller travel system use. The Nikon D series cameras do a great job with these kinds of images. All of my experiments with MFDBs have sucked badly with star shooting for night shots. (I'm sure that if I had an equatorial mount and stacked images it would be fabulous but ... ).

    For everything else I still like the look of medium format.
    Graham, you seem to be backing the wrong horse. When you come to Maine, I will show you what a real camera can do.

    Pentax 645D and 35mm.

  44. #194
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Jono,

    The point is, once you've paid up for MF gear, everything else seems like a screaming bargain. Add a Nikon kit? Can do that for the cost of a 28 Rodie!

    --Matt
    You are sooo right: I got told today that with a CF and Analyse Technical I might get a few mm shift out of my sk35 so might not need the HR 32 I was planning on spending nearly $10,000 on. If that turns out to be true, I've got a 'free' bagful of good glass for my D800e... Though of course, if Canon comes out with something exciting this week, all bets are off. Again.

  45. #195
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by jcoffin View Post
    I believe what DxO says to the extent that I think they do their best to give an accurate report of what they've measured.

    I don't, however, believe that most of what they measure has much relevance to photography. Worse, I think the little that may be relevant is measured (and/or presented) in a way that makes that relevance difficult to understand and the data difficult to use.

    That means (at best) most of the data probably only means anything in a relative sense, not an absolute one. When they say camera A has 12.2 stops of dynamic range and camera B has 12.7 stops, that probably means camera B has a little more dynamic range than camera A -- but not much more than that.

    Even that, however, may be somewhat suspect -- nothing I've seen about their test procedures gives a solid assurance that their controls are tight enough to make a half-stop difference statistically significant. That's not to say it's necessarily meaningless, only that we don't know enough to be sure that it means anything (and even then, the relevance problem means we probably don't know what it means in terms of real pictures).
    If you only use the summary information from the DxO tests ..you are missing some real insights . When you get down to the next level of detail and compare cameras using the full charts..there is plenty to be gained .

    For example when you follow the signal to noise chart using the Leica M9 you can see the drop right around 1250 that most of the m9 users well know . If you plot another camera against something you know (in my case the M9) I know exactly what to expect . Example the fuji x100 has an insignificant advantage up to about the 1250 ..but then noise increases only slowly at 1600 and 3200 . Its a gradual fall off unlike the M9 which falls off a cliff. So I know “don’t expect miracles in high ISO but you can get another EV or maybe 2...with careful technique. “

    Now go over to the color saturation as another example ..what exactly does that mean. On the detail graph ....go to the right side ...the curser will move the line across the image showing the impact at different levels . So it gives you a example of what a number means . It also bands the chart with an acceptable range . Take your camera and use your file at different ISO s . Works for me . I can see exactly what I see in my M9 file after 640 I am giving up color ..ok for some subjects but I sure want to avoid it if I can. It also shows that at 160 I get a bump in color saturation not seen at 320 ...but using the right side of the chart I can also see this difference would be pretty hard to see that in a group of images . I would come to this conclusion surely by testing my own equipment ..but what should I expect from the new Sony..point being “compared to what” .

    Now when I compare cameras to something I use frequently ...I know what to expect . Just as the charts show a D3s produces some pretty great ISO performance with a gradual fall off in the high ISO progression (like most CMOS sensors). I can also see that a D3X DR is superb at ISO100 but as you increase the ISO its essentially the same as the D3S . I think if you look at the graphs you would see the D3X is has a low ISO bias ..don t expect great stuff at ISO400 .

    Point being the detailed information is there to use and my experience is that its darn accurate as a benchmark . I think they lose people by presenting the final results into a meaningless ranking . But don t throw out some excellent analytical work based on the front page ..there is plenty to learn by digging in.

  46. #196
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Jono,

    The point is, once you've paid up for MF gear, everything else seems like a screaming bargain. Add a Nikon kit? Can do that for the cost of a 28 Rodie!

    --Matt
    HI Matt
    Although I understand what you mean . . . with my 10 modern Leica M lenses and 4 classic R lenses the D800 looks like a bargain to me as well!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    You are sooo right: I got told today that with a CF and Analyse Technical I might get a few mm shift out of my sk35 so might not need the HR 32 I was planning on spending nearly $10,000 on. If that turns out to be true, I've got a 'free' bagful of good glass for my D800e... Though of course, if Canon comes out with something exciting this week, all bets are off. Again.
    These kind of remarks don't make me feel like rushing to MF . . if you bought that lens for that amount I wonder how much it would cost per image over the time you have it?

    I'm just slightly amused by the rush to buy a D800 by exactly those people who seem to be saying that it's not going to be any good!

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    These kind of remarks don't make me feel like rushing to MF . . if you bought that lens for that amount I wonder how much it would cost per image over the time you have it?
    I suppose that's why Noctilux owners use theirs so much - lowers the cost per image.

    --Matt

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I suppose that's why Noctilux owners use theirs so much - lowers the cost per image.

    --Matt
    I got one of them . . . I use it a lot - I'd guess I'm down to about £2 an image by now .. must use it more

    . . . . I don't want to think how much my 24 'lux is costing though

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  49. #199
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Forget the D800 - the new threat to MF is Nokia's upcoming 41 Mpx camera phone presented today. Yikes.
    Forget about the phone, think about the technology implemented with other, larger sensors. It opens up a bag full of possibilities.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Forget about the phone, think about the technology implemented with other, larger sensors. It opens up a bag full of possibilities.
    How many pixels does that translate to on a FF sensor?
    We need a mathematician

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