Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 40 of 40

Thread: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I'm thinking about upgrading my Rodenstock 35mm f/4.5 Apo-Sironar digital to a Schneider 35mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. The Rodenstock is "ok" but does not really have the corner sharpness I'd like for my 33 megapixel 36x48mm Aptus 75 at f/11 shifted 10mm.

    It would be sad though to upgrade to Schneider 35XL just to find out that the corner performance is about the same. I know the Rodenstock Digaron-W 40mm is a safer bet, but it is a bit narrow FOV and more expensive. If the Schneider don't perform at f/11, I will have no choice though. (LCC is no problem with the Aptus 75 by the way, so I don't need retrofocus.)

    Ideally I'd like to have sharpness similar to my Schneider 47XL. Trying to interpret MTF charts it seems like it could be the case, but a couple of pixel peep corner crops would be nice to look at to know what to expect, especially when shifted a bit.

    Is there any 35XL user out there that could tell/show what to expect from this lens?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #2
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I'm thinking about upgrading my Rodenstock 35mm f/4.5 Apo-Sironar digital to a Schneider 35mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. The Rodenstock is "ok" but does not really have the corner sharpness I'd like for my 33 megapixel 36x48mm Aptus 75 at f/11 shifted 10mm.

    It would be sad though to upgrade to Schneider 35XL just to find out that the corner performance is about the same. I know the Rodenstock Digaron-W 40mm is a safer bet, but it is a bit narrow FOV and more expensive. If the Schneider don't perform at f/11, I will have no choice though. (LCC is no problem with the Aptus 75 by the way, so I don't need retrofocus.)

    Ideally I'd like to have sharpness similar to my Schneider 47XL. Trying to interpret MTF charts it seems like it could be the case, but a couple of pixel peep corner crops would be nice to look at to know what to expect, especially when shifted a bit.

    Is there any 35XL user out there that could tell/show what to expect from this lens?

    In testing the Rodenstock 35/4.5 APO Sironar, I was disappointed with the resolution away from the center, especially compared to its slightly longer sibling the 55mm/4.5 APO Sironar (which has shown itself to be outstanding, and a bargain). The 35mm Digitar is superior and is indeed similar to the performance of the 47mm in my experience, if not even a bit sharper.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    You might also consider the Rodenstock 35 HR-S, you have the older Rodenstock, I believe. the 35 HR is in the same family as the 28 and 23 and it's a very sharp lens. Corner to Corner. You will be limited to about 7mm to 8mm of shifting since Rodenstock puts a hard disk in all the S lenses to "show" you when you hit the edge of the image circle. Guy wrote extensively about this on his review of the 28mm Rodenstock and 28mm Schneider. The disk will put a hard dark edge to your shifted images and really makes it impossible to go much farther than 7mm. You can maybe get to 8.5 if you are working on a pano and will be cutting into the image.

    The Schneider is also a very good lens, and you should be able to get many users examples. If you would like I can send you a few raw files from a IQ160 with this lens showing the corners. I find it a hard to post a file large enough that will show you the details you need to see.

    On your back you also may like the fact that the Schneider's 90mm image circle without the hard disk may allow you to get a greater than 8mm stitch. On the IQ160 or P65 (same back), I find the limit is about 10mm with the Schneider 35mm. You can take if further (I have gone to 15mm) but the magenta cast is very strong, a very hard line from about 9mm to 15mm. I use the Schneider CF and some of the magenta cast is removed by using Capture One, but not all of it. If you have a solid blue sky, with no clouds then blending the center and 15mm shift will be a task. It can be done but the color correction is a lot of work. I also see a good bit of detail loss/smearing with my 35mm Schneider much past 10mm. I know others on this site get better results, so it may be a combination of my back and lens. I have sent my Schneider off for service due to a few others issues.

    The Rodenstock HR-S 35mm doesn't have a CF that I know of. Rodenstock makes one for the 28 and 23. I felt when I used the 35mm HR-S on a bright day with only blue sky, that it would have benefited from one.

    Hopefully you have a dealer that can let you rent either the Rodenstock HR-S 35mm or the Schneider.

    Again, if you would like some full size raws, just drop me an email and I can put them up in my drop box account later today.

    Paul

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    To illustrate, landscape orientation shifted up 10mm, 33 megapixel, lightly sharpened, extreme corner. f/11

    The 47XL which I think is ok:
    http://torger.dyndns.org/47xl-10mm-shift-corner.png

    Unfortunately I did not have as good Sironar digital 35mm example, but it is clearly a bit fuzzy at f/11 in this position, so fuzzy you can't really sharpen it easily.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Thanks for the informative replies!

    I sent you a message Paul, I sure would like to look at that example.

    I prefer a larger image circle than the Digaron-S, or else that would probably be on the top of the list. But if this Schneider 35XL performs well it will be a perfect match for my needs, and for a good price too. I don't require "the best", just "really good" :-)

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    291
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    15

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Be aware that the 35XL has quite a bit of curvature of the field, you would not want to use it a f5.6, but at f11 it's fine. Every bit as sharp as the 47XL if not better, like Steve says, this is also my experience.

    This may be useful for you as well, it helped me a lot when making a choice:

    Lens :: Capture Integration – Medium Format Digital Back Sales & Rental and Other Professional Photographic Equipment

    Cheers, -Peter
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Yes the 35 XL is a great lens in the corners when you get to F11 and on a leaf 75 should be no issues at all. I was just in Atlanta at the CI office and they did have the 35XL on hand. Check with Steve

    Oh do get the CF for it as well. Its worth having on this lens
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #8
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Just make sure you demo before committing. With the p65 and extreme shifts the corners of mine were not sharp enough to be usable.
    Ed Cooley Fine Art Photography
     
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I've been using my 35 XL for several years first with a P45+ now with a P65+. Most of the times when using this I'll add horizontal shifts and have had little to no problems or concerns with the corners. Then again I rarely go under f/8 and try for f/11.

    Do what Guy says and call Steve.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  10. #10
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Torger, reading your post I went out and did a test for you.

    I use the lowly 22mp Aptus II 5, but as I understand your back is similar to mine when it comes to corner performance in shifted images.

    I have had my 35 XL at Schneider in Germany for calibration and I have been very happy with the performance since then.

    This test is straight into a wooden fence in my garden. Both exposures and pp exactly the same. Iso 50 - f11 (since that was most interesting to you) and 1 second exposure. Distance is 2.1 metres.

    First image the Alpa Max and 35 XL completely zeroed.



    This is a 100% crop from the centre of the zeroed image above:



    Now, this is back shifted 11mm right and lens stationary.



    And finally a 100% crop from the far end of the shifted image above.



    In my view the 35 XL performs very well. If I scrutinize the far side I can see some degradation in detail, but in all honesty it is minor and looking at the whole image it holds up nicely.

    Hope this helps
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

  11. #11
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Another vote for getting the CF for this lens too. I use this on my IQ160 and it's probably my most used lens on the Alpa and every bit as sharp, if not sharper than my 47 XL APO Digitar.

    I typically stick to 10mm shift with the IQ although I was able to shoot 15mm with my P40+ although you do get into the serious color cast zone. That said, I didn't have the center filter when I shot with the P40+.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  12. #12
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    That sample looks pretty good, I would be interested in seeing a 15mm up and right shift to compare sharpness towards the end of the image circle.

    My thinking if the lens claims to have the IC it should be production quality sharpness to the full extent of that IC.

    I define production quality as the ability to recover softness at the edges with software sharpening so it is not visible in a 300dpi print.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Thanks all! Really informative test Dan, thanks.

    I'm an amateur based in northen Sweden and to keep costs down I buy lots of stuff second hand from here and there so I rarely have the ability to actually test in advance, and there are not many MF dealers in my part of the world anyway so the new stuff I get is often ordered from abroad. Second best is asking around and see what I should be expecting, and try get some samples. You're all very helpful.

  14. #14
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I divide my time between the south of Sweden and south of Spain, so if you ever head down south....you are more than welcome to try my stuff out first hand
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Denmark, Copenhagen
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Hi there, I use the 35 associated with the AFI7ii on WDS, perfect setup, very happy. Copenhagen is not far away from you, contact me if you pass by, I always keep few beers on the fridge for serious lens testing :-) Jean-Luc

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    As you can see from my older thread on this forum http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium...itar-35mm.html, I am not too happy with corner performance on the 35XL. It's not only the sharpness, but also a halo effect in contrasty areas that's kind of disturbing. This really kicks in on my lens when shifting up/down more than 15mm in portrait orientation.
    Schneider claimed that it was probably my sensor/camera combination (at this time, a 22mp Leaf Valeo 22wi and a Linhof Techno camera) so I tested again with a different back and camera, but with identical results.
    But I also have to say that, at 10mm shift, which is all that you can do with the Rodenstock Digaron 35 anyway, corner performance is still really good.

    geb

  17. #17
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Your corner performance is WAY better than mine was but I used a full frame sensor. Not sure the vale 22wi is full frame or not.

    Your assessment at 10mm shift and even larger if you are cropping to 6x17 agrees with mine - very usable.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Your corner performance is WAY better than mine was but I used a full frame sensor. Not sure the vale 22wi is full frame or not.

    Your assessment at 10mm shift and even larger if you are cropping to 6x17 agrees with mine - very usable.
    the 22wi has a 36x48mm sensor.

    geb

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    This test from capture integration is as far as I can understand as "good as it gets" with the schneider 35:

    http://www.captureintegration.com/wp...0_10mmrise.jpg

    Here with 39 megapixels shifted up 10mm at f/11. One can see at the peak of the roof (close to the edge) that the image quality starts to break up. From other examples I've seen it is clear to me that far from 90mm of the image circle is usable. My guess is that with a 33-39 megapixel back 48x36mm one will not want to shift more than ~10mm with this lens. That corresponds to 74mm image circle.

    This makes me wonder if perhaps it perhaps still is smarter to get a Rodenstock 35mm Digaron-S. If it is true what I have heard that the 70mm image circle is artificially enforced with a disk and the image sharpness is sharp all the way to the edge, possibly even sharper at 70mm than the Schneider is, then it could be a better option.

    Other advantages of the digaron-S is that no center filter or recessed board is needed and it is brighter on the ground glass and it is a little bit cheaper (due to no need of filter/recessed board).

    But I'm really afraid that the max 7mm shift in landscape and 6mm shift in portrait which 70mm IC is limited to will be kind of limiting for my shooting style... having 10mm good performance and a bit more in emergencies may be better...

    In landscape 7mm shift means horizon will split 70/30 (horizon at ~1/3 possible with level camera), and portrait 6mm means split will be 63/37, or 66/33 if I crop to 4:5 format which I often do for portraits. So it is tight as I see it but workable.

    this will be a really tough decision :-), still think that I lean towards the Schneider though, but *if* the Digaron-S is truly sharp to the very edge, then I may change my mind.
    Last edited by torger; 10th May 2012 at 05:29.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I don't know about landscape, but I feel very strongly that for almost anything architecture related, 7mm shift is not enough by far. As others have pointed out in this forum, it's very often the case that the shifted corners show sky and clouds or foliage anyway. I had my Digitar 35 in service twice last year, and could only get a Digaron 35 as a rental her in Vienna. This was quite painful, I missed out on many of the shots I could have routinely done with the Digitar. With my Linhof Techno and the Linhof Sliding back I often do 2-up stitches with the Digitar to simulate a 24mm lens, and I still have room to shift up around 5mm in spite of the extreme 18mm left-right shift of the sliding back.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    From other examples I've seen it is clear to me that far from 90mm of the image circle is usable. My guess is that with a 33-39 megapixel back 48x36mm one will not want to shift more than ~10mm with this lens. That corresponds to 74mm image circle.
    The Schneider does indeed had a 90mm IC but the problem with all of the symmetrical wide lens designs from Schneider is that they suffer quite large amounts on field curvature at the expense of having virtually no distortion. Imagine a point on a football (soccer ball) with this representing the centre of the lens. As you move further away from this point, like moving towards the edge of the camera frame the focus moves further from the central point on the ball/lens. This is why as you shift the edges start to look smudgy. Stopping down will help to f16/f22 but diffraction then can effect overall sharpness.

    I'm afraid you takes your pick...... symmetrical Schneider's with no distortion but field curvature or retro focus Rodenstock's with very little field curvature but moustache distortion and of course smaller IC.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    The 35mm focal length indeed seems difficult. The MTF charts of the Schneider show that it is quite good at f/11 up to 70-75mm IC, then there's a sharp slope towards the 90mm edge where the performance according to the MTF is not good at all, actually worse than my current Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital 35mm/4.5 (not to confuse with the Digaron-S).

    I do landscape so my requirements are not as tough as for the architecture photographer, but the Schneider is really scary. It seems likely that the Rodenstock Digaron-S 35/4 is sharper all the way up to its 70mm edge, and it also seems likely that I will not like the performance outside 75mm of the Schneider. If that is true, I'm in practice choosing between a very sharp lens with 70mm image circle and a sharp lens with a 75mm image circle with noticable but minor issues 65-75mm. Is those 5mm worth it? Hmm... decisions decisions...

    On the other hand I don't have as extreme quality requirements, probably the Schneider is ok for my use, but I guess I got used to the feeling of pixelpeeping and thinking "boy that's sharp all the way to the edge!" rather than "that will look ok on a print" (which it usually does).

    Does anyone know of any fullsize Digaron-S 35mm sample images by the way?

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    It is a very difficult choice between those two lenses and one I often contemplate. I keep watching the for sale forum for an Arca R mount 35XL but is seems users keep hold of these lenses so they can't be all that bad.

    I would love a lens in this focal length as anything wider is too much for my taste but have just continued to wait, hoping that Schneider will update the 35XL to a Super Digitar XL and address some of its issues.

    The RS 32HR-W is a possible alternative but for me its way too expensive, too much distortion and is the size of an elephant gun.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Found this old lula thread with an full resolution sample of the Digaron-S 35mm on an Aptus 75 from the time the lens was called Apo-Sironar HR.

    C645+D35/3.5 vs ALPA+Rodenstock 35/4 HR

    Unshifted it looks very sharp indeed. From estimates in the pictures provided in the excellent 28XL vs 28 Digaron-S review in this forum it seems like the usable image circle of that Digaron-S is actually 72mm, which would mean close to 9 mm shift in landscape and 7mm in portrait with the 48x36mm Aptus. It would be interesting with a test shot of the 35mm Digaron-S showing the image circle all the way past the edge.

  25. #25
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    After calibration I am very pleased with my SK 35XL. Results with rise of 10mm with sensor vertical is excellent. However, after that I do detect degradation for every mm.

    This example has a downfall of 8mm with sensor horizontal. Vertially no difference in sharpness if the lens was zeroed. Very useful.

    And, the lack of distortion is fab! I'm a happy camper

    Last edited by danlindberg; 11th May 2012 at 04:21. Reason: broken link
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Very nice image Dan, as always.

    10mm rise in landscape corresponds to 74mm image circle. From all the test shots I have looked at and all the discussions I've read it seems like a very realistic expectation from this lens is a 74mm IC shot at f/11, which should be shot on a back which don't have much lens cast issues. If really picky about pixelpeep sharpness one should probably not go past the 39 megapixel backs, at least when looking into corners. Zero distortion at infinity focus, small size and low weight are properties that can be considered a plus. Dark ground glass (tilting loupe probably useful), need of recessed board on some cameras and need of center filter are the disadvantages.

    If one needs the full 90mm IC for large shifts, wants to shoot at larger aperture than f/11, or have a back with color cast issues disappointment may occur :-).

    I will myself probably go back-and-forth for a while more before I make the purchase...

  27. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    FWIW, I never use a centre filter with my 35 XL -and I have the filter. I shoot with an old Aptus 22.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    A couple more thoughts on both. This is base on work on both a P45+ and IQ160

    With the Schneider, XL 35mm I found that the Center filter was a must have other wise the amount of noise in the frames was too harsh. The Center filter is about a 2.5 stop correction to the center of the image. If you shift the lens, then the CF to me is also a must have other wise the LCC correction is really not worth it. Just too much noise. I have taken the 35 XL to 5mm, 10mm and 15mm. At 5mm it's excellent at F11 with really no saturation fall off or smearing of details. At 10mm you start to see the famous Magenta band that this lens seems to generate at least on the IQ backs. You also see some detail smearing and loss of color saturation. The LCC when viewed on the camera LCD will also show a bit of the magenta color. At 15mm all bets are off. The last 5mm are pretty worthless as you have almost total lack of color/saturation and you see a very prominent magenta band on the far side of the image. The image detail here is not recoverable and the color depending on the subject may or may not be. When I viewed the LCC on a 15mm shift, I also noticed banding in the Magenta which surprised me a bit. Amazingly, Capture One will correct for this and give you a pretty clean LCC, but even after this the amount of detail smearing rules out using this amount of shift. I base these issues on the curvature of the lens.

    The 35mm Rodenstock, has a few other issues, which IMO make it even a worse consideration if you want to shift.

    The aforementioned disk is a big problem. This disk has been written about in Guy's review of the 28mm Rodenstock. Apparently it's there to let you know when you have hit the edge of the image circle. On a IQ160 back, you will hit this disk on a horizontal shift at 5mm. It's non recoverable. But you may have a even greater problem, the penumbra of the image circle. On the 28mm Rodenstock this will show as a lighter white band that follows the curve of the image circle. If you are shooting against a blue sky or any other solid subject the penumbra will create a visible mark on your shot and you can't correct for it, the LCC will not effect it either. This effectively makes your shift only worth 2mm or so. Due to the layout of the IQ160 sensor I believe you hit the penumbra faster on a shift than on a rise. When Guy tested his 28mm Rodenstock he was mainly testing rise and it doesn't seem to show up as fast. I have wondered if the 32HR has the same disk and penumbra issues. Since the 35mm Rodenstock and 28mm have the same image circle 70mm, it's very possible that you will have this same issue with the penumbra on it. At least on the 28mm these issues are really a compromise to a great optic as you can shift this lens to even 12mm and you will see no loss of detail to smearing or color/sat loss. However due to the penumbra marks and the disk you pretty much can't use most of the shifted image.

    The other concern on the 35mm Rodenstock is that it still will vignette on both a P45 and IQ160. Enough that I would still like to have a CF for it but as far as I know Rodenstock does not make a physical CF for this lens. Once again you have the issues of making the LCC do more work than it can handle and you will start to see noise build up. It's another amazing optic which to me is compromised for shifting.

    I don't think there really is affordable lens that works for shifting on the newer backs in the 35mm range. To me a 8mm shift for landscape is really not worth the effort as I would need at least 15mm to really get what I looking for and 20mm would be better. The 32HR may have been redesigned to remove the disk and penumbra issue but at over 10K with the CF (and it needs the CF) it's just out of my range.

    If you want to shift with 35mm, you really are going to need to consider the 35XL Schneider, if what you are shooting is more rise than shift you may be OK since you won't hit the penumbra as fast.

    Paul
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #29
    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    newport, RI
    Posts
    808
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    A couple more thoughts on both. This is base on work on both a P45+ and IQ160

    With the Schneider, XL 35mm I found that the Center filter was a must have other wise the amount of noise in the frames was too harsh. The Center filter is about a 2.5 stop correction to the center of the image. If you shift the lens, then the CF to me is also a must have other wise the LCC correction is really not worth it. Just too much noise. I have taken the 35 XL to 5mm, 10mm and 15mm. At 5mm it's excellent at F11 with really no saturation fall off or smearing of details. At 10mm you start to see the famous Magenta band that this lens seems to generate at least on the IQ backs. You also see some detail smearing and loss of color saturation. The LCC when viewed on the camera LCD will also show a bit of the magenta color. At 15mm all bets are off. The last 5mm are pretty worthless as you have almost total lack of color/saturation and you see a very prominent magenta band on the far side of the image. The image detail here is not recoverable and the color depending on the subject may or may not be. When I viewed the LCC on a 15mm shift, I also noticed banding in the Magenta which surprised me a bit. Amazingly, Capture One will correct for this and give you a pretty clean LCC, but even after this the amount of detail smearing rules out using this amount of shift. I base these issues on the curvature of the lens.

    The 35mm Rodenstock, has a few other issues, which IMO make it even a worse consideration if you want to shift.

    The aforementioned disk is a big problem. This disk has been written about in Guy's review of the 28mm Rodenstock. Apparently it's there to let you know when you have hit the edge of the image circle. On a IQ160 back, you will hit this disk on a horizontal shift at 5mm. It's non recoverable. But you may have a even greater problem, the penumbra of the image circle. On the 28mm Rodenstock this will show as a lighter white band that follows the curve of the image circle. If you are shooting against a blue sky or any other solid subject the penumbra will create a visible mark on your shot and you can't correct for it, the LCC will not effect it either. This effectively makes your shift only worth 2mm or so. Due to the layout of the IQ160 sensor I believe you hit the penumbra faster on a shift than on a rise. When Guy tested his 28mm Rodenstock he was mainly testing rise and it doesn't seem to show up as fast. I have wondered if the 32HR has the same disk and penumbra issues. Since the 35mm Rodenstock and 28mm have the same image circle 70mm, it's very possible that you will have this same issue with the penumbra on it. At least on the 28mm these issues are really a compromise to a great optic as you can shift this lens to even 12mm and you will see no loss of detail to smearing or color/sat loss. However due to the penumbra marks and the disk you pretty much can't use most of the shifted image.

    The other concern on the 35mm Rodenstock is that it still will vignette on both a P45 and IQ160. Enough that I would still like to have a CF for it but as far as I know Rodenstock does not make a physical CF for this lens. Once again you have the issues of making the LCC do more work than it can handle and you will start to see noise build up. It's another amazing optic which to me is compromised for shifting.

    I don't think there really is affordable lens that works for shifting on the newer backs in the 35mm range. To me a 8mm shift for landscape is really not worth the effort as I would need at least 15mm to really get what I looking for and 20mm would be better. The 32HR may have been redesigned to remove the disk and penumbra issue but at over 10K with the CF (and it needs the CF) it's just out of my range.

    If you want to shift with 35mm, you really are going to need to consider the 35XL Schneider, if what you are shooting is more rise than shift you may be OK since you won't hit the penumbra as fast.

    Paul
    Thank you for the above, I own the 32mm Rodenstock with the CF. In your opinion can I safely shift 10mm? What about rise and fall?
    Stanley

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Thanks Paul, really great feedback.

    We that use Aptus 75, Aptus 22 or other backs based on those sensors will have less of the magenta cast and noise issues. The banding I guess is this issue:
    Camera systems and image software
    that is also related to sensor type.

    At capture integration web there's a test image available for download showing the full image circle of the 35 XL on an IQ180 without center filter. The sight is not pretty. That image together with Schneider's own MTFs is mainly what has caused me to be a bit suspicious about this lens.
    Lens :: Capture Integration – Medium Format Digital Back Sales & Rental and Other Professional Photographic Equipment
    In the CI image the sharpness falloff seems even worse than it should too, but could be a problem with focus during shooting (it was not made for sharpness test afaik).

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Stanley:

    I really can't speak to the 32mm HR-W. I don't know if Rodenstock put the same disk in the lens as the HR 23,28, or 35. It's a newer design and has a larger image circle at 90mm I believe. For sure the larger circle will allow for a wider shift. I also don't know if the penumbra will be as big an issue. For me on the 28mm it's pretty much rules out all shift in the horizontal since I see it as soon as 3mm. I am look back to my early tests with the 35mm to see if I had it then also. I can get about 7mm of rise before it hits and leaves a mark on the file. Again, it's very image dependent as if you were shooting a subject that didn't have a solid background, you won't really see it but you will of course see the disk. With a blue sky it's very apparent and even with a partly cloudy sky you can still see the effect/mark of the edge of the penumbra. The format of the Phase backs, will cause you to hit the penumbra sooner on horizontal shift then vertical rise.

    There are other users on this forum with the 32 and hopefully they can answer that question.

  32. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Hi Torger,
    very old Thread, but what have you done? Do you sell the 35mm Digitar? You have a Techno and with my information you need a special lensboard for the techno with the Digitar 35mm. Do you bought this board? Thank you.

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I have the 35xl yes, with the special lens board. I bought it in that configuration. I'm pleased with its performance and I intend to keep it. It does through its short flange distance put stress on the sensor, color cast and crosstalk desaturation are issues to relate to. Doesn't work with all sensors.

    Concerning corner performance, with my 48x36mm sensor I prefer to shift no more than 10mm, and when I shift that amount and I need sharpness (ie have details in corners) I stop down to f/16. With smaller amounts of shift f/11 works fine all the way to the corners. I use it with a center-filter and I'd say it's a must-have. Before I got a dedicated filter I used the weaker 47XL center filter on it which work well too, a little vignetting but not too much. With the 35XL center-filter you have practically zero vignetting in the shot image (it vignettes on the ground glass when focusing of course due to angle of light).

    I find it to be much better than the Rodenstock Sironar-Digital 35mm I owned before.
    Last edited by torger; 17th February 2014 at 00:03.

  34. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    HI Torger,
    thank you for your fast reply.
    Could you say something about tilt with the 35mm Digitar and your sensor? I 've seen with the recessed lensboard there are extensions to the shutter lever and focus lever too. do you think you could do this selfmade to change a 35mm XL to that board? because i have a 35mm on an other lensboard.. :-).
    mueller

  35. #35
    Member weinlamm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    229
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    I think the problem for 'changing yourselfs' should be to get the lensboard. You can't buy one from Cambo or Alpa - in both cases you have to sent the lens to them.
    __________________
    Christian
    P.S.: If your wife knows everything... it's mostly not good for your gear.

  36. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Hi Christian,
    It is no problem to buy the lens board from Linhof. They sell it. This is not possible with cambo.. But with the Digitar 35 because of the deeper lens board it is different.
    But Linhof sell the lens board without the lens too.
    Mueller

  37. #37
    Member weinlamm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    229
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Ok. If you have a Linhof - perhaps you should try it. If it won't work you could still sent it to Linhof later.
    __________________
    Christian
    P.S.: If your wife knows everything... it's mostly not good for your gear.

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Quote Originally Posted by mueller123 View Post
    HI Torger,
    thank you for your fast reply.
    Could you say something about tilt with the 35mm Digitar and your sensor? I 've seen with the recessed lensboard there are extensions to the shutter lever and focus lever too. do you think you could do this selfmade to change a 35mm XL to that board? because i have a 35mm on an other lensboard.. :-).
    mueller
    I use a Linhof Techno. I bought mine already mounted on the recessed lens board. Linhof have different recessed boards, a 6mm recessed and a 12mm recessed. If I remember correctly the 35mm Apo-Sironar Digital was on a 6mm recessed board and the Digitar 35XL is on the 12mm recessed. The 6mm would be too little for it.

    There's no problem with tilting, sure the recessed board puts the lens a bit off-center but it's no problem for this wide angle. The tilt angles are usually very small for this short focal length, like 1.5 degrees or so. As said in another thread tilt is quite rarely used as hyperfocal/infinity often works just as well due to the short focal length, but I do use it from time-to-time (in open scenes with downwards shift or low tripod).

    The lens is very dark in the corners of the ground glass, while Linhof's new bright ground glass makes a big difference and I rarely need to use a dark cloth, it's still very hard to look into corners and check sharpness there while adjusting tilt. So tilting I generally do from tables with this one, and it does work very well too. Table settings work better for wider angles as you generally don't need to hit as exact as with longer lenses and larger tilts (and for longer lenses you can look into corners with the loupe more easily).

    Changing lens board by yourself should be no problem. I've only changed on flat lensboards before though, I guess it's a bit more tricky to get the levers there when attaching to a recessed lens board, but I don't think it should be a problem. If you don't have a lens wrench a vernier caliper works fine.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  39. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    Hi Torger,
    if i am right, you dont use the newest version of the Linhof Techno. Do you have some problems with the recessed board of the Digitar 35mm and his rapid connection and the techno with its flash shoe? With my other lensboard there is a problem of a collision of the wire trigger and the flash hot shoe..
    thank you.
    Mueller

  40. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35 XL corner performance

    HI Guys,
    for the info. There is a angled "plug" for the wire trigger. So you dont need the rapid adapter for your wire trigger. The rapid adapter is not compatible with older technos because of the hot shoe.
    I have the copal shutter, the angled wire plug, the lens... Now i need the recessed board.

    Is it possible to use a deeper recessed board? like 16mm?

    Mueller

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •