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Example for a future MF Design

Stefan Steib

Active member
@ Shashin

HCam has done a camera that holds wideangle oneshot worldrecord (digitally) for production cameras (probably there are military cams who can do even more, but you will have a hard time buying them) , that´s not so bad for a first start. We also have a first level control for all functions which is significantly easier than anything else I know. And yes I am thinking about how our future versions shall look like. This is the question I have asked in my first posting. Thank you for your application.

A future HCam also needs funding, you are welcome to make proposals on how to raise these. HCam is a factor 100 smaller than Phase or Blad, nevertheless we have made an independent MF camera.

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
 

Shashin

Well-known member
@ Shashin

HCam has done a camera that holds wideangle oneshot worldrecord (digitally) for production cameras (probably there are military cams who can do even more, but you will have a hard time buying them) , that´s not so bad for a first start. We also have a first level control for all functions which is significantly easier than anything else I know. And yes I am thinking about how our future versions shall look like. This is the question I have asked in my first posting. Thank you for your application.

A future HCam also needs funding, you are welcome to make proposals on how to raise these. HCam is a factor 100 smaller than Phase or Blad, nevertheless we have made an independent MF camera.

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
Stefan, I certainly am not taking away from your success and accomplishment with the Hcam. But likewise, you seem to suggest coming out with the latest and greatest thing is easily achieved. The photographic equipment market is a tough field. Being "large" does not make it easier, it just makes losing more money easier. Hollywood has a formula for making blockbusters; they are wrong more often than they are right.
 

torger

Active member
HCam is a tech camera. The user expectations of a tech camera is much different than from those that want a SLR type of camera for hand-held portraits etc. It seems to me that Shashin is asking for that rather than a tech camera.

Hand-holdability of a tech camera is meaningless, it will always be on a tripod. What I'd like to see in the tech camera future is better portability, better handling in hard / cold weather (lots of exposed metal means cold fingers), large flat surfaces catching wind etc, and live view or if we get no CMOS better development of ground glass (better fresnels, provide electronic loupe etc), and fast efficient review from the digital back, on the back and optionally on a high res tablet.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Hand-holdability of a tech camera is meaningless...
Not to me or two other members of GetDPI I know that handhold tech cameras--and you can do a search about threads on handles for tech cameras. Except for monorail cameras, I don't know of a camera type that can't be handheld. But that is not my only dislike, the side buttons look like a pain to see in the field. Even on tripod mounting, I want a secure camera to hold onto for mounting and transportation--I would be afraid to drop this thing.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Stefan,

why don't you start a kickstarter campaign. That way you could test the waters for a novel mf cam concept and get initial funding for your next HCam.

Of course you need the create something at a killer price point. Or why don't you sit together with the Blackmagic guys. I think they're a cool bunch of video enthusiasts/entrepreneurs and I'm sure you would find an economical way of splitting up revenue and cost with them. Also Kodaks sensor business has been sold to an investor who surely is open to selling legacy sensors to someone like you wanting to create the Blackmagic cinema camera version of the MF world.

Let's say you get the 39MPX or 50 MPX sensor from them as well as the Monochrome version and maybe the p45+ sensor from Dalsa.

Integrate that with the same screen and UI of Blackmagics camera, your universal mount concept at the front and an SSD slot for storage. This all for 6-10k USD.

I would sign up in a heartbeat for that camera. When designing it, pleaase create a mixture of Hasselblad and Blackcinema camera, i.e. add a grip at least.

A dream would be a camera that can mount Leica S lenses, Phase one SK, Hassy and CaNikon lenses.

Just dreaming aloud.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Shashin

I know how difficult this business is, we are working with our customers every day and I try to solve their problems in our solutions.

What I ask for is no less than a vision and enthusiasm. This is what I feel for Photography and I think an engineer approach is not enough. The last larger company that made it to the top with this spirit is Apple. I also see this spirit in this Black Magic camera. It always takes a bit madness to launch a product that many do not understand nor want. This was true for cars, photo + filmcameras, television, computers......... the list is endless.

The traditionalists are legion. Of course it´s their right to think like this.
But there will always be crazy people like me who want to do better.

And I will NOT STOP. I clearly see the future of professional photography and I also believe there IS a possible future. But not if people sit back and say - wait - this will go away, we will always work like this, we don´t need to change anything. 3/4 of the professional Photo industry already has disappeared. You think this was out of the blue ?

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Just do it!

:)

The beauty about todays world is that actually one person can pull that off. If you think about it for a second, Phase one didn't do anything else than create an intelligent hull to an already existing scientific sensor design and marketed it to photographers with a nice margin. I mean their camera body is based on the the mamiya legacy and the only thing they did is create a nice workflow and user interface for these sensors. (ok one can say that's a big thing)

I mean from what I remember Dalsa is primarily focused on military, industrial and scientific applications? Sensor design is the hard part, I guess, creating a cc-milled hull with a gpu and cpu in it to save the sensor data onto a compact flash shouldn't be rocket science on the other hand?


It also shouldn't be too hard sourcing the same sensors and creating a cheaper interface sold over the internet ... at least I imagine it shouldnt be too hard? You could work with some talented students from the TU München in creating a cheaper digital back. I'm sure you'll be able to assemble a group of 4-5 engineering students. All the Phase One components should be available on the open market, including gpus etc. Nvidias Tegra surely is able to process 50MPX files to zoom in and out, the touchscreen etc. should be quite cheap.

Seitz did the same thing with their 160 MPX cam. They got the scan sensor from Kodak, outsourced the UI/IO software programming to a third party company and designed the cnc body of the camera. And they are by no means a huge company. Only problem is their pricing - way too high.

I hope you pull it off. Those digital backs are way overpriced for what they are ... Dream would be if you managed to create a modular design such as for example the RED cinema camera. The lens mount, the controls, the screen everything should be exchangeable so that even the sensor could be exchanged at your factory for say 5k. IF in 2013 a 80 MPX sensor is available as a legacy sensor on the open market, you could offer your customers upgrades at a fair price, say 5-6k etc ...

:)
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Paul

as I said - I collect informations first. then I will finalize what I want to do and the chance to see a result is comparably big, believe me..... :) I do not want to make another Phase, Leaf or Blad back. I want a solution that is a) much less in pricing b) taking into account a modern sensor and camera design and c)allowing modularity and upgradability.

This alone already marks most of how this camera needs to look like from a todays technical knowhow. Black Magic has taken what Red has done, looked into the software and pricing approach of japanese makers and added a simplified design to cut costs.

So you are right, this is possible. Lets see who will be first. I know that the"other" makers are of course working on similar solutions. There are a lot of smart people in these companies and the fact that they cannot do things as they may want to do them, is not a proof they could not do it if they need to do it......:)

Regards
Stefan
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
No no no no no!

NO!

Please do NOT build the sensor into the camera. Keep it totally modular.

I'll even give you the name for the thing:

BYOLAS.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
BYOLAS ????

Please explain !

:)
Bring Your Own Lens And Sensor :)

Also, don't bother with a viewfinder display on the camera itself. Take the FireWire or USB3 output from a sensor and turn it into a wireless connection. Use a phone/tablet/laptop/PC as the viewfinder and control all functions from there.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Gerald

I give you a hint: as long as there is no large CMOS existing (at least a full 4,5x6 or larger) this (Back and separate camera) will not happen anymore. It´s logically ruled out by the necessary tolerances to achive sharp images with larger resolutions.

So........


:) Stefan
 

simonstucki

New member
Gerald

I give you a hint: as long as there is no large CMOS existing (at least a full 4,5x6 or larger) this (Back and separate camera) will not happen anymore. It´s logically ruled out by the necessary tolerances to achive sharp images with larger resolutions.

So........


:) Stefan
Hi Stefan, interesting idea, I really hope too someone will finally make a large sensor mirrorless camera (modular would be perfect).

about the separate back story: what about interchangeable lens mounts (on red cameras for example) seems to work. and of course lens mounts itself if that works, why should it be impossible to make a separate back? and of course if there is no mirrorbox a camera with an interchangeable mount is nothing more than a "digital back".

simon
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Simon

you are right - the Lens mount is still a weakness in this. But it already would help greatly if at least the Back-Body connection would be eliminated.
The consequence for even better resolution will be as shown in the N808 Nokia with the 5 aspherical elements Zeiss lens which is mounted fixed.

Regards
Stefan
 

torger

Active member
Is tolerance really that great problem? There are lots of industrial and medical machines that need very high precision and they can be manufactured.

Also, when you have live view with manual focus directly on the sensor much of the tolerance problem disappears. One does not want any accidental tilt/swing though, which still could happen.

My guess is that the largest tolerance challenge today is inside the lenses, that the lens elements are mounted at exactly the right position.

I'd like to see someone make the perfect digital view camera. I believe that tech cameras should have plenty movements. Ansel Adams used lots of movements for his compositions, so why shouldn't I? Linhof Techno is not a bad shot, but there are things to improve.
 
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