X1D 4116 first impressions

[D&A]

I agree. Shooting in continuous mode is just not something I have a need to use with a camera like the X1D. (I have a Sony A7RII and have never shot in continuous mode.) I suppose it all depends on where you are coming from. If you are expecting the X1D to have the same functionality as a Canon or Nikon DSLR or a Sony A7RII, forget it. I expect that the Fuji GFX will come much closer. That seems to be what Fuji is aiming for. An XT-2 on steroids.
The length of the blackout with the X1D is likely something that can be improved in the firmware.

I don't expect any medium format camera with OVF or EVF to ever come close to shooting in continuous or track like a Canon, Nikon or other 35mm DSLR's, nor should one expect them to. That's understandable and a given. The need though to be able to keep one's eye on the subject while shooting in continuous even with a medium format digital and adjust framing accordingly may be the need of some, depending on application. Again it's not a deficiency of a/this camera...it's simply what one might need or require. That's why even in the given genre of medium format digitals, each camera and system is going to have a feature set with advantages and disadvantages for different types of shooting. Knowing what these advantages and disadvantages are helps one make an informed decision.

Dave (D&A)

 

[KeithL]

I don't expect any medium format camera with OVF or EVF to ever come close to shooting in continuous or track like a Canon, Nikon or other 35mm DSLR's, nor should one expect them to. That's understandable and a given. The need though to be able to keep one's eye on the subject while shooting in continuous even with a medium format digital and adjust framing accordingly may be the need of some, depending on application. Again it's not a deficiency of a/this camera...it's simply what one might need or require. That's why even in the given genre of medium format digitals, each camera and system is going to have a feature set with advantages and disadvantages for different types of shooting. Knowing what these advantages and disadvantages are helps one make an informed decision.

Dave (D&A)

^
This.

 

[jdphoto]

One update from my original list. The firmware shipping with the camera is the latest Demo firmware. AF points work, AWB works, most everything else. Most glaring missing item is being able to custom configure the buttons. So AFD does focus, but the camera focuses again when you press the shutter. So no back button focus, even in AFS, yet. Backbutton focus won't really be complete until AFC is added.

I've also just been snapping a lot of nothing shots around the house to continue testing shutter lag. I still don't think its an issue. The second image of the same general scene actually seems to have slightly less lag. But it is fully acceptable as is (IMHO) and I expect it will get better as Hasse updates the firmware

I'm curious if you try the Elinchrom flash with the EL Skyport HS and adjust the ODS on the skyport, if your trigger delay improves? (At least with a strobe anyway).The black version X1D is one of the nicest looking cameras ever!

 

[jdphoto]

I agree. Shooting in continuous mode is just not something I have a need to use with a camera like the X1D. (I have a Sony A7RII and have never shot in continuous mode.) I suppose it all depends on where you are coming from. If you are expecting the X1D to have the same functionality as a Canon or Nikon DSLR or a Sony A7RII, forget it. I expect that the Fuji GFX will come much closer. That seems to be what Fuji is aiming for. An XT-2 on steroids.
The length of the blackout with the X1D is likely something that can be improved in the firmware.

It would be nice if the X1D improves it's continuous mode, especially for studio users where models often get very spontaneous. If this is strictly a landscape camera then that will limit it's user base compared to a Leica SL or Fuji GFX

 

[hcubell]

I don't expect any medium format camera with OVF or EVF to ever come close to shooting in continuous or track like a Canon, Nikon or other 35mm DSLR's, nor should one expect them to. That's understandable and a given. The need though to be able to keep one's eye on the subject while shooting in continuous even with a medium format digital and adjust framing accordingly may be the need of some, depending on application. Again it's not a deficiency of a/this camera...it's simply what one might need or require. That's why even in the given genre of medium format digitals, each camera and system is going to have a feature set with advantages and disadvantages for different types of shooting. Knowing what these advantages and disadvantages are helps one make an informed decision.

Dave (D&A)

Unless a continuous mode is really really fast, I guess I don't see what it offers as I would think you lose control over the timing of the shutter relative to when you want the exposure made. I do get the issue with the blackout delay. I can see how that would be problematic.

 

[Godfrey]

At least with the M240, you have the OVF to circumvent this issue unless of course you are using long focal length telephoto framed on your subject. I too was curious about the SL in this regard and how it compares to the X1D.

The Leica SL images at least every other frame at 11fps, depending upon the shutter speed, as far as I can tell. At lower frame rates, it images each frame. X1D max frame rate is essentially the same as the SL's minimum sequential frame rate. The SL 'blackout' is no longer than that for a pro-grade DSLR at any time; it's highly optimized for EVF speed, moreso than any other electronic TTL camera I've used with the possible exception of the Olympus E-M1 (haven't used the E-M1 II).

Since I almost never shoot in continuous capture mode, this is nearly entirely academic to me.

G

 

[KeithL]

Unless a continuous mode is really really fast, I guess I don't see what it offers as I would think you lose control over the timing of the shutter relative to when you want the exposure made. I do get the issue with the blackout delay. I can see how that would be problematic.

If the camera used has shutter lag then you've already lost control over the timing of the shutter. Continuous can hedge the bets and is more stable than repeatedly pressing the shutter release.

 

[hcubell]

If the camera used has shutter lag then you've already lost control over the timing of the shutter. Continuous can hedge the bets and is more stable than repeatedly pressing the shutter release.

I don't think there is "shutter lag". There is "EVF lag" in the form a blackout after the first shot before the EVF returns, but that is totally different to me. If the exposure is made close to instantaneously with the pressing of the shutter, then I don't think there is shutter lag. I agree that EVF lag is not good, but I can live with that.

 

[KeithL]

I don't think there is "shutter lag". There is "EVF lag" in the form a blackout after the first shot before the EVF returns, but that is totally different to me. If the exposure is made close to instantaneously with the pressing of the shutter, then I don't think there is shutter lag. I agree that EVF lag is not good, but I can live with that.

Is there indeed shutter lag, because different folk seem to be coming to different conclusions, whereas most are reporting EVF lag.

I already have a camera that exhibits EVF lag and would rather not have another. Hopefully in the case of the X1D it can be fixed with a FW update.

 

[hcubell]

Is there indeed shutter lag, because different folk seem to be coming to different conclusions, whereas most are reporting EVF lag.

I already have a camera that exhibits EVF lag and would rather not have another. Hopefully in the case of the X1D it can be fixed with a FW update.

From an earlier post of mine:
"I read in Kevin Raber's review of the X1D that the X1D had "shutter lag." After the X1D I ordered arrived last week, I did some shooting with it and really did not detect what I would describe as obvious shuttler lag. I think there is likely a perception of shutter lag because the leaf shutter makes three distinct clicks after the shutter is depressed. However, the first click is quite instantaneous, the second click follows quickly after the first click, and the third is quite delayed. While I am not sure exactly what is happening, I did a Slo Mo Video of a stop watch with my iPhone with a Nikon SB-700 flash mounted on the X1D and, as best as I can tell, there is a delay of about 10 one hundredths of a second or 100 milliseconds between the shutter being depressed and the exposure. This a relatively crude test, but it is the best I could do. By way of comparison, a Canon 1DX has a delay of 43 milliseconds, a Leica M9 has a delay of 80 milliseconds, and the Hassy H has a delay of 160 milliseconds. So, while I am not sure quite yet, the issue of shutter lag on the X1D may turn out to be a Red Herring. At least for my use cases, it is a total nonissue."

 

[D&A]

Unless a continuous mode is really really fast, I guess I don't see what it offers as I would think you lose control over the timing of the shutter relative to when you want the exposure made. I do get the issue with the blackout delay. I can see how that would be problematic.

In some applications, a burst of the shutter in continuous mode as opposed to single shutter firing, in the hopes of capturing a few keys shots while the subject is moving (even if slowly) while changing their orientation may be necessary. It some of my own personal applications because of the need for file size, a medium format camera was advantageous and have used this format (with OVF) in such a manner successfully. If the viewfinder was blacked out, it wouldn't be possible as I'd have no idea how to frame the subjects as they moved. As pointed out by Keith, a single shot alternative by repeatedly pressing the shutter button wouldn't work with or at the very least be a distinct disadvantage in such cases. As aptly pointed out to me by another forum member, there is always the possibility that this blackout might be addressed in future firmware updates and I think it would be very much welcomed.

Again this is only one aspect of a camera and everyone has different priorities for certain features. In many other respects, the X1D has a lot of advantages, even compared to other MFD camera. I am very impressed with so many aspects of the X1D and released lenses so far from what I've seen and heard.

Again we all have our own expectations of performance and operational characteristics when we choose a camera. There is no right or wrong, just preferences.

Dave (D&A)

 

[KeithL]

I've posted the following question on LuLa in the hopes we can get further clarification from Kevin and or others.

I've read various hand on experiences with the X1D almost all of which report EVF lag but very few reporting shutter lag. I wonder if there could be confusion between the two and if Kevin or anyone else with hands on experience could add further clarification?

We shall see.

 

[hcubell]

In some applications, a burst of the shutter in continuous mode as opposed to single shutter firing, in the hopes of capturing a few keys shots while the subject is moving (even if slowly) while changing their orientation may be necessary. It some of my own personal applications because of the need for file size, a medium format camera was advantageous and have used this format (with OVF) in such a manner successfully. If the viewfinder was blacked out, it wouldn't be possible as I'd have no idea how to frame the subjects as they moved. As pointed out by Keith, a single shot alternative by repeatedly pressing the shutter button wouldn't work with or at the very least be a distinct disadvantage in such cases. As aptly pointed out to me by another forum member, there is always the possibility that this blackout might be addressed in future firmware updates and I think it would be very much welcomed.

Again this is only one aspect of a camera and everyone has different priorities for certain features. In many other respects, the X1D has a lot of advantages, even compared to other MFD camera. I am very impressed with so many aspects of the X1D and released lenses so far from what I've seen and heard.

Again we all have our own expectations of performance and operational characteristics when we choose a camera. There is no right or wrong, just preferences.

Dave (D&A)

Dave, I understand completely. Your comments are very thoughtful and constructive.

 

[mkerouac]

I've posted the following question on LuLa in the hopes we can get further clarification from Kevin and or others.

I've read various hand on experiences with the X1D almost all of which report EVF lag but very few reporting shutter lag. I wonder if there could be confusion between the two and if Kevin or anyone else with hands on experience could add further clarification?

We shall see.

I think the observation by owners needs to be described as both a shutter lag and EVF blackout. I used the X1D in a studio situation yesterday with strobes. The strobes do not fire on the initial press of the shutter button. The EVF does black out on the initial, then a slight pause and then the flash. So in my view, there is a shutter lag or the strobe would fire instantly. There is also a relatively lengthy EVF blackout that exceeds the shutter lag. Its hard to say how annoying the shutter lag would be if the EVF blackout were shorter. I think the length of the blackout gives the impression that the shutter lag is longer than it is. For example, if you take two quick shots in a row of the exact same scene, the EVF refreshes faster and the perception is that the shutter lag was less. So in short, I think shutter lag is there, but it's only really obvious with flash. Flash seems to fire on 2nd of the 3 clicks, but hard to be sure if thats reality or just a lag in my hearing. I'm more than willing to live with it, under the assumption that HB will improve it over time.

 

[hcubell]

I think the observation by owners needs to be described as both a shutter lag and EVF blackout. I used the X1D in a studio situation yesterday with strobes. The strobes do not fire on the initial press of the shutter button. The EVF does black out on the initial, then a slight pause and then the flash. So in my view, there is a shutter lag or the strobe would fire instantly. There is also a relatively lengthy EVF blackout that exceeds the shutter lag. Its hard to say how annoying the shutter lag would be if the EVF blackout were shorter. I think the length of the blackout gives the impression that the shutter lag is longer than it is. For example, if you take two quick shots in a row of the exact same scene, the EVF refreshes faster and the perception is that the shutter lag was less. So in short, I think shutter lag is there, but it's only really obvious with flash. Flash seems to fire on 2nd of the 3 clicks, but hard to be sure if thats reality or just a lag in my hearing. I'm more than willing to live with it, under the assumption that HB will improve it over time.

Anyone have any idea from a technical standpoint why there would be a blackout of the EVF after the shutter is depressed? Is it a firmware issue, an issue with the speed of the processor, or an issue with the specs of the EVF used in the X1D?

 

[cly]

Isn't this the problem that the shutter has to close first, ending live view and thus producing a blackout, before the shot can be taken?

Chris

 

[tashley]

Isn't this the problem that the shutter has to close first, ending live view and thus producing a blackout, before the shot can be taken?

Chris

That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.

 

[peterv]

Exactly what Tim said. It's a lot of (confusing) clicks. I can understand that some may expect exposure to be on the first click and think the camera is slow because of the next two, three clicks. There's the leaf shutter system for ya.

Still, it's such a beautiful camera, I'm tempted by her looks, size and weight. The lenses I'm still not sure about, being used to Leica S glass.

 

[hcubell]

That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.

Is it possible for me to post a Slo Mo iPhone video here?

 

[hcubell]

That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.

I assume the same would be true with a focal plane shutter, right, but there are no reports that the Fuji GFX has EVF blackout or shutter lag for that matter.