Cheapest route to get a IQ150 system?

[Pemihan]

Folks, keep the discussion friendly. One of you is getting snarky and has had to have their post edited, so consider yourself warned that if you keep hammering in that direction, you will get a time out.

Yeah, I don't know where all this hate is coming from. As we say in Denmark "Den der har grisen bestemmer prisen" which loosely translated means "The one who has the pig set the price". Sorry it doesn't quite rhyme in English.

If you don't like it don't buy it! Simple as that, no need for anger!

 

[kdphotography]

Cheapest route to get into the IQ4 150 MFDB system is simple----wait a year or two and pick up a certified pre-owned system.

With the advent of the IQ series (in general), image quality really has not be the issue for me. It's about the platform and usability. *Wow* is all I have to say. I'm still impressed with my IQ3 100MP MFDB---the same flagship MFDB that has now been relegated to "entry-level." :loco: I'm happy where I'm at (though still pining for a Phase answer for a mirror-less travel option).

Anyone upgrading to the IQ4 is always free to visit :thumbup:

ken

 

[mjr]

I've always thought that the real value in any piece of photographic equipment is the images it allows me to capture, that's where the money is! Considering any piece of photographic gear as being worth anything after it has been done with is madness to me, especially for a business. If I can't afford something I really need, then I have to do better at getting clients who I can charge for the purchase, I don't blame P1 for producing a product I can't afford, it's my fault! As with pretty much any item ever, there's a law of diminishing returns, but if you value what it provides then you'll find a way, either get the work to support it, be independently wealthy or set it as a target to work towards, simple really.

I love the fact this 150 exists, as the basis for a business acquisition I could make it work over 3 years but I don't need it so I won't, but it's fantastic that it's out there, now hopefully I can find a IQ180 solely for studio portraits, that would be something I'd enjoy.

Mat

 

[hcubell]

Point is they think they can sustain this absurd pricing strategy because it has worked the last 3-4 years since they received a private equity investment. Their top-line grew from 350m DKK to 500m DKK; this leads them to think they are successful. Without knowing details, I suppose they grew mainly because of aerial and repro, ie new segments and directed marketing. But once you have these segments covered, growth stalls.

2017 has been a year of 0% growth and they are not making a lot of money due to high salaries, R&D. So 10% customers falling away will hurt them for real. I suppose a lot of their enthusiast clientele lurks around here, so that will be felt if people stop buying after realising they actually have the power and not the other way around.

I think the best strategy is to boycott them until prices go down. They need to feel the pain like Hassy did before they were sold multiple times and now landed in the hands of a Shenzhen based drone maker.

BOYCOTT PHASE ONE PRICES, WE THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER!

GET A QUOTE FROM YOUR LOCAL DEALER AND THEN TELL THEM AS A REACTION TO THE RIDICULOUS PRICES TO GO DOWN TO SANE LEVELS OR ELSE YOUR CASH GOES TO FUJI ET AL. THIS MESSAGE HAS TO BE HAMMERED HOME UNTIL P1 HQ FEELS IT AND MANAGEMENT GETS SLAMMED IN THE NEXT BOARD MEETING WHY SALES DONT GROW BY THEIR PE INVESTORS.

A boycott won't work, because most of the likely non-institutional buyers at this point (not all) are wealthy enthusiasts who don't actually NEED a 150mp back and the price of the upgrade is not that important to them. A $20k discount just doesn't move the needle for them. They would buy the new back no matter what. OTOH, a professional who uses camera equipment in his/her business evaluates this very differently. Listening to professionals here and elsewhere, it is clear that there are precious few that can justify it on a cost/benefit basis.
Personally, I am not at all angry about the pricing of Phase equipment. If someone can afford it and wants it for a hobby, fine. People blow much more money on golf and yachts. I could afford an IQ4 150, but I am not sure I could afford the upkeep for a full time Sherpa to carry it for me, because there is NO WAY I am carrying around an XF with those lenses.

 

[Abstraction]

Now for a comment on the thread

Facts:

1) Sensors are going to continue to get more dense; and likely with a major "upgrade" about every 18 months.
2) Internal processing enhancements will advance at a similar rate, and hence output speeds will remain at the very least, stable.
3) Prices for the new stuff will be higher.
4) Many won't be able to afford -- or justify -- the expense.
5) Some have the luxury of money being no object.
6) Some in group 4 will always be jealous of those in group 5; and they show this by expressing non-need and furthermore disdain for the new product.
7) Others in group 4 really do not need the newest best to make their art.
8) It has always been this way.
9) GREAT images are made by the artist not the gear; great art is still being made on film and great images are still being made with 22MP DB's and great images are being made with cell phones too. Again, the equipment does not make the image, the photographer does...

Hence, if you want and can afford this new bad boy, I say GOOD ON YOU! Go get it, and share your art -- I personally can't wait to see it! Will we see a difference in online images? Yup -- especially when all the 100% crops are shown :lol: But that said, I still want to see art from your 22MP back if that's what you use. Or film if that's what you use. Cell phones, not so much, unless it's really good :ROTFL:

My .02 only -- carry on

PS: And for the record, if I could justify the funds I'd really like to have an IQ3 60 or 80, probably on a tech cam with three lenses. But alas, it's out of my practicality zone. And probably always will be...

I'd like to address #6: To say that those who are unable to afford or unwilling to justify the expense will always be jealous of those who can and do is sidestepping the issue. A camera is a tool, not a luxury item and if it's treated like a luxury item, it stops being a tool. So, let's take the affordability out of the equation for a moment. I can afford any of the 50mp offerings out there from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and HB. All 5 deliver the same 50mp (more or less), but the Fuji and HB are a few thousand more compared to the others. When you spend that extra few thousand, what exactly are you getting for that money? It's not a question of affordability, it's the question of value. There can be a discussion, disagreement and arguments about what constitutes value, whether the extra few grand are worth it and so on. However, those arguments and discussions have NOTHING to do with affordability.

Getting back on track with the IQ4, putting affordability aside, it's a question of value. What will the IQ4 do that the upcoming 100mp Fuji and HB won't? The extra 50mp only constitute about a 25% increase in resolution. Does that provide enough of a value to be worth 5x the price of the 100mp offerings? When the market wasn't mature yet and most manufacturers offered 6mp cameras and P1 was offering 22 or 25, that was a major wow factor! You can actually make a fairly large print with a 22mp image. However, now that the 35mm size sensor cameras are safely within the 6x7 film category in terms of resolution and the 33x44 sensors are making strides into the 4x5 film category, the differences aren't that great anymore and the utility of the extra resolution isn't that great anymore to justify that expense in any way, shape or form. And THAT'S what the discussion is about (or at least should be) and simply dismissing it by stating that a group that can't afford P1 back is jealous of the group that can doesn't contribute much and does a disservice.

Whereas value is subjective, utility is not and that's reflected by the fact that fewer and fewer people see the utility and subsequently the value of the P1 offerings.

 

[Shashin]

I'd like to address #6: To say that those who are unable to afford or unwilling to justify the expense will always be jealous of those who can and do is sidestepping the issue. A camera is a tool, not a luxury item and if it's treated like a luxury item, it stops being a tool.

For most, the camera is simply a luxury item. Only for working photographers is the camera not a luxury item. Then the benefit/cost ratio of the P1 camera comes into play.

If you are not a customer for this product, either because you cannot afford it or don't want to buy it, then this conversation is rather moot. The argument that there are other products is obvious and beside the point. Price is only one factor in any decision. And those that talk in terms of retail cost often confuse price with value.

 

[Jamgolf]

A few years ago I started this thread which lead to some spirited and informative discussion. Interesting to see how things have transpired since then.

Personally I think probably 100 megapixels, and definitely, 150 megapixels, is the point where image quality matches and/or surpasses the 8"x10" film. So, beyond this point, advancements in pixel count are meaningless (to me) and take the back seat to other significant advancements as far as I am concerned.

 

[Shashin]

A few years ago I started this thread which lead to some spirited and informative discussion. Interesting to see how things have transpired since then.

Personally I think probably 100 megapixels, and definitely, 150 megapixels, is the point where image quality matches and/or surpasses the 8"x10" film. So, beyond this point, advancements in pixel count are meaningless (to me) and take the back seat to other significant advancements as far as I am concerned.

Somewhere between 24MP and 50MP is where I am happy. Once I get into that range, I can easily make high-quality images on 42" larger format printers. Pixels beyond that just fill up hard drives. Still, anyone that springs for one of these cameras, I will be happy to enjoy your images.

 

[MrSmith]

I have never printed bigger than a section of A3, as that’s the size of my portfolio book that I sometimes use in face to face with clients.
‘Print’ means something totally different to me than a lot of posters on here, it means CMYK, conversions, moire, dot gain etc etc.
Even if my business could afford a whole new phase outfit it doesn’t bring anything to the party that a mix of cambo/Schneider/rodenstock/Sony doesn’t already. And this is from somebody who didn’t even own a 35mm camera and shot jobs almost exclusively on 5x4 and 10x8 in the past.
As a professional still life photographer I should be a customer of P1 but am no longer apart from using their software. I don’t have an issue with this or the people that buy their products, I’m certainly not jealous just slightly bemused at what they now offer which seems more irrelevant with each release. I do wonder if this narrowing of market sector will sustain them when I see HB expanding theirs.

If I shot huge fine art canvases I might think otherwise.

 

[Don Libby]

Almost never fails; shortly after Phase introduces a new product folks come out of the woodwork proclaiming their distain for (pick one or more) the price, the weight, the company itself, the lack of (again pick one), video, sound, etc. Too much, not enough yada yada yada.Face it, there’s 2-groups of folks who will buy this. The people with too much money or sense that will pick it up use it for a year then sell (great way to save money by the way). The other end is the professional who will use their older system as a trade then write off the rest as a business expense. I’ve done that with every back I brought to include the IQ1-100. I traded an IQ180 then wrote the difference off as a 179 expense the first year. If you have the money and don’t mind spending it do so. If you are a professional and you want/need a better tool for your profession speak to your tax account. Everything depreciates; drive a car off the lot and loose money. Suck it up and stop whining. If you truly want “it” you’ll do what it takes; if you don’t want “it” you have no dog in the fight.

 

[Abstraction]

Suck it up and stop whining. If you truly want “it” you’ll do what it takes; if you don’t want “it” you have no dog in the fight.

Well, before you know whether you want "it" or not, you have to figure out what that "it" brings to the table and whether it's worth even wanting.

 

[tcdeveau]

Almost never fails; shortly after Phase introduces a new product folks come out of the woodwork proclaiming their distain for (pick one or more) the price, the weight, the company itself, the lack of (again pick one), video, sound, etc. Too much, not enough yada yada yada.

This pattern is becoming pretty standard for just about any camera launch these days sadly, not just Phase. I'm growing tired of it.

 

[Pradeep]

This topic has been done to death ever since P1 came out with their second generation backs - 'why are they so expensive' and 'why is the path to upgrade even more so', as the value of the original purchase drops precipitously within a year or two. No other camera depreciates this rapidly. I know how it feels, for I've been there.

Most professionals who buy this are at the very high end - that is the only place it makes business sense. Most amateurs who buy this ARE able to spend this kind of money on something they are passionate about, but like me, may not realize what they are really getting.

In the end it boils down to what a company feels their products are worth and if people are willing to pay them what they want, there is nothing wrong with this at all IMHO. Is a night's stay at a Singita resort in Africa really worth $2000 per person sharing? After all, how much better can the food be, or how much softer the bed be? The wildlife does not care what you paid, they are either there or not there for you to photograph. Just as they do not care how much your camera cost you.

Having said that, I do believe P1 could really do better in terms of profits if they were to indeed lower the price by 50% or more. In 2018, there really is not much sense in having exclusive access to the system through dealerships which then cost the company 20-30% to maintain. To the end user, the dealership offers little else apart from a way to purchase the items. Any learning is for an extra fee, which is ridiculous when you pay that much. One of the things nobody talks about is the fact that nobody really talks about the P1 systems outside of these select forums. There are very few independent reviews and comparisons. It seems to live on a completely different plane of existence, truly a dark place - no wonder we call it Dante's Inferno here

A cousin of mine who owns a highly successful iron foundry that supplies material all over the world once told me the secret of his success. He said he prices his products slightly lower than he could - so the buyer can see he is getting something as good or better than the competition, but at a price that is much more attractive. Thus while he makes less money per piece, overall he comes out way ahead because of the sheer volume of his sales.

There is no way P1 can continue to ask for 5X the price of the competition and survive for very long. I run a business too and it just does not make any sense at all. Sooner or later the buyers are going to realize this is too much of a premium to pay. We all love new technology and 'better' cameras, indeed we lust after them. It would be a shame if this wonderful company were to go bust simply because they priced themselves out of the market.

Just my thoughts.

 

[hcubell]

Sooner or later the buyers are going to realize this is too much of a premium to pay.

Yes, gradually it is already happening. There are a few of the usual suspects still on the merry go round who will jump in without even bothering to do side by side tests, but it is clear to me that this time things are different.

 

[JeRuFo]

Yes, gradually it is already happening. There are a few of the usual suspects still on the merry go round who will jump in without even bothering to do side by side tests, but it is clear to me that this time things are different.

The same was said when the IQ3 100 was introduced and the step up from 80 megapixels seemed too small, there were gasps when the prices were announced and yet everyone still had to have the new toy. Nothing really changed for Phase One. As long as they keep introducing the new sensors way before Hasselblad they have the marketplace almost to themselves.

 

[BANKER1]

At the beginning of my journey in MFD, I knew the cost was drastically more than it should have been. Way back then, Kevin Raber and I had a discussion about that very thing. It seemed to me that the manufacturers had to charge huge prices to cover their costs involved in selling a relative small volume of cameras. I could not understand why they would not want to see tremendously larger sales volume which would result in lower prices for them. But, as Hasselblad painfully discovered, ramping up manufacturing facilities and staff for the X1D involved time and customer dissatisfaction with the delays. Through that experience they may have also realized that more volume might be a good thing when it comes to their flagship cameras. Time will tell. Another thing time will tell is how many sales of their flagship cameras have been forfeited to the X1D. If, through their X1D experience, Hasselblad decides to lower the prices for their H line and see volume of sales compensate for their costs, Phase may be forced to meet prices to be able to survive.

 

[kdphotography]

A little levity may be in order.

The real reason why I am still single. And thank God for Phase One's trade-in programs. :thumbup: I'm pretty happy where I'm at for now though.

View attachment 135980

 

[hcubell]

The same was said when the IQ3 100 was introduced and the step up from 80 megapixels seemed too small, there were gasps when the prices were announced and yet everyone still had to have the new toy. Nothing really changed for Phase One. As long as they keep introducing the new sensors way before Hasselblad they have the marketplace almost to themselves.

Not a comparable situation. The IQ3 100 was a CMOS back, and th first time the resolution leader from Phase was a cmos back. The IQ180 was a CCD back. The differences between the two backs was not primarily about more megapixels. I fully understand the desire to “upgrade” from an IQ 180 to an IQ 3 100. the IQ 180 is wonderful in a studio or shooting outdoors in low contrast light or with controlled artificial lighting. But shooting landscape in contrasts light, the CMOS backs are a whole other experience.
Watch what happens if Hasselblad comes out with an H7 with a 150 mp back for $25k.

 

[vjbelle]

Howard..... you beat me to it. You are dead right in that the 3100 was ground breaking. I remember when I bought my 180 and thought too that it was ground breaking. It had live view - if you could use it. I skipped IQ2 and IQ3 as I saw no value. During that time I purchased a Leaf 50 CMOS and I was hooked. My 180 was rarely used and consequently when the 3100 came along I jumped on. It didn't cost much out of pocket as I had two backs to trade in. But this time around I just don't know. 100mp works well for me for my printing needs and the second generation GFX is a done deal in my mind. I have two major trips coming up - China and Vietnam in the fall and Japan in the spring. That's where I intend to dedicate disposable income.

Victor

 

[JeRuFo]

Not a comparable situation. The IQ3 100 was a CMOS back, and th first time the resolution leader from Phase was a cmos back. The IQ180 was a CCD back. The differences between the two backs was not primarily about more megapixels. I fully understand the desire to “upgrade” from an IQ 180 to an IQ 3 100. the IQ 180 is wonderful in a studio or shooting outdoors in low contrast light or with controlled artificial lighting. But shooting landscape in contrasts light, the CMOS backs are a whole other experience.
Watch what happens if Hasselblad comes out with an H7 with a 150 mp back for $25k.

You are right, I agree, but I remember reading it at the time anyway. The situation is slightly different, but there will still be plenty of people that want the latest toy now and don't want to wait a year and a half for an H7.