Cheapest route to get a IQ150 system?

[Paul Spinnler]

Ok, so here we are again. Phase One secured first dibs on the new Sony sensor and charge outrageous prices for it. Still, would be cool to have that camera.

When trading in a 80MPX back, they still want an enormous amount of money.

What is the cheapest route to the system? What is the max discount one can get? Which dealers in which countries offer the best prices? Flying in to Hong Kong to get that camera for 30k instead of 50k, etc.? Singapore, Dubai, where does one get the best deals?

Would be good if we can make the pricing a bit transparent. I find it sad that Phase One still clings to the ultra high end pricing strategy. Bet they would sell tons more for say 20k.

So I hear pricing in the region of 35k with 80MPX trade in. What is the price one gets for an IQ3 100? How will pricing evolve once Hassy strikes back with their implementation once the exclusivity period ends?

Highly appreciate some tips!

Many thanks
Paul

 

[B L]

I am looking out for people to hate and offload their (now Shi**y) X1D and GFX, so I can pick either. It will do for me.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Honestly, would be good to get some transparency going. And boycott the high prices. That'll cripple their cashflow. They already have issues on that front with all the R&D, bank debt, and FTE increases.

Phase one had like 500m DKK in revenues last year, which is like 80m USD. Assuming 20k avg. net revenues after rebates, thats like only 4000 kits sold. Given that it is not only backs and kits, but also lenses it may be 3000 kits only. Dont forget they employ 300 people. They will feel every single decision of not buying. Maybe they will then come to their senses and change the distribution strategy.

So ... assuming 20-30% dealer margin, I am sure there are some dealers willing to give away something, especially if you are coming in internationally.

Lets share some price indications publicly. Also their not really nice to customers: they try to squeeze the lemon as much as they can by monitoring EBAY resale pricing and dynamically adjusting trade in values to be slightly better or around that mark to hinder arbitrage.

The matter of the fact is that Phase One products are an exceedingly value destructive investment. You pay 45k in Y1, by Y3 your stuff is only worth 20k and then it drops to 5k in another 3 years. Like 6-7k depreciation p.a.! Or you throw 500 USD out of the window each month.

Best
P.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Point is they think they can sustain this absurd pricing strategy because it has worked the last 3-4 years since they received a private equity investment. Their top-line grew from 350m DKK to 500m DKK; this leads them to think they are successful. Without knowing details, I suppose they grew mainly because of aerial and repro, ie new segments and directed marketing. But once you have these segments covered, growth stalls.

2017 has been a year of 0% growth and they are not making a lot of money due to high salaries, R&D. So 10% customers falling away will hurt them for real. I suppose a lot of their enthusiast clientele lurks around here, so that will be felt if people stop buying after realising they actually have the power and not the other way around.

I think the best strategy is to boycott them until prices go down. They need to feel the pain like Hassy did before they were sold multiple times and now landed in the hands of a Shenzhen based drone maker.

BOYCOTT PHASE ONE PRICES, WE THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER!

GET A QUOTE FROM YOUR LOCAL DEALER AND THEN TELL THEM AS A REACTION TO THE RIDICULOUS PRICES TO GO DOWN TO SANE LEVELS OR ELSE YOUR CASH GOES TO FUJI ET AL. THIS MESSAGE HAS TO BE HAMMERED HOME UNTIL P1 HQ FEELS IT AND MANAGEMENT GETS SLAMMED IN THE NEXT BOARD MEETING WHY SALES DONT GROW BY THEIR PE INVESTORS.

 

[tcdeveau]

Do you mean an IQ4 150 system or an IQ150 system?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Re: Cheapest route to get a IQ4 150 system?

I mean the new system. Unfortunately I cannot change the thread title.

Depending on your back they want like 30-50k from you. I think this is way too much and am surprised that they can sustain their pricing strategy. I was out of the MF game after I got burned on my first investment (bought an Aptus II 80 like a few weeks before the IQ1 80 was announced and am pissed since at the value hit).

So now I checked prices and they are higher than ever before. Like 50k+ without trade in. This is just ridiculous. But they only sell like 3000 backs I suppose and have 300 employees. They will feel each back not sold to a customer who says no.

Or maybe a group buy. 10 people on the forum offer 250k to P1 for 10 IQ4 150 kits. Point is that this is a legacy distribution model in a world with good choices and diminishing returns of incremental pixels.And I am convinced if each and everyone on this forum just skips P1 for a year prices will go down.

Who is so stupid to pay 40k for a camera thats worth 20k in 3y?

Fair market value of a cool product like this should be 20k USD max. Thats still a LOT of money and I think their top line would explode. They are just captive of their investors and the debt they have; its always risky to change a machine while it is running and when you are financially constraint. If they dont listen they must feel!

BUT WE HAVE THE POWER. CALL DEALERS, TELL THEM TO GO TO XXXX WITH THAT OFFER AND SKIP P1 FOR A YEAR OR TWO.

 

[Abstraction]

I don't see P1 being able to sustain this much longer. They're being pushed further and further into the niche market. They got pushed out of the 30mp market once the DSLRs got there, now they got pushed out of the 33x44 market by Fuji, Hasselblad and Pentax. They're about to get pushed out of the 100mp market. So, the only thing they're doing is clinging to the 645 150mp market, which is VERY small.

Something will have to give: Either they will have to change their model, products and pricing or they will go out of business. I'm guessing it's going to be the latter. The equity firm is gonna cash in as much as they can and out they'll go. It's entirely feasible that IQ4 will be the last iteration of the digital back.

So, no worries, P1 is going to self destruct even without a boycott. Even the die hard fans are questioning the model and the pricing, something I didn't see even as recently as 2 years ago. I'm also going to guess that Hasselblad will abandon the H system. The writing's on the wall.

 

[Shashin]

Wait for the release of the IQ5 300...

 

[Phase V]

**** not constructive ***

 

[DBF]

A Rolex Watch keeps a Value.
I bought my first in 1986.
In 2016 I bought a new one and sold the one from 1986. I got my Money, that I paid for it, back.

What do You get back for used Photo-Equipment after lets say 10 years? Near to nothing.

When I wanted to buy a H5D60, I told to the Man in the Shop, that I want a Discount of 50%. It took two Hours for him to give is o.k. on Tel. and after one Week it was there. He ordered it from Sweden - I opened the Parcel myself - of course a new Camera was in it.

I know, that this Money is lost for me, but I have a Camera that gives Pictures, that I really like.

I saw the Sample-Pictures of the 4-150 - I must be a Fool to give any Euro for that.

 

[Phase V]

A Rolex Watch keeps a Value.
I bought my first in 1986.
In 2016 I bought a new one and sold the one from 1986. I got my Money, that I paid for it, back.

What do You get back for used Photo-Equipment after lets say 10 years? Near to nothing.

When I wanted to buy a H5D60, I told to the Man in the Shop, that I want a Discount of 50%. It took two Hours for him to give is o.k. on Tel. and after one Week it was there. He ordered it from Sweden - I opened the Parcel myself - of course a new Camera was in it.

I know, that this Money is lost for me, but I have a Camera that gives Pictures, that I really like.

I saw the Sample-Pictures of the 4-150 - I must be a Fool to give any Euro for that.

Do you earn money for wearing a Rolex?
Don´t think so unless you are a celebrity who is being payed for doing it.
I think everybody who is buying this stuff is aware
that it will be obsolete 5 years ahead.
If not - welcome in the real world.

 

[DBF]

No not earning money - I paid 4.000 Deutsche Mark in 1986 and sold it for 2.000 Euro in 2016 - and that is nearly the same.

 

[Abstraction]

The digital camera technology has matured, so you no longer get the same type of performance improvement relative to other cameras as you used to. 150mp is only about 25% greater resolution than a 100mp, which is about to be introduced by Fuji and Blad for about 1/5 of the price. That means that the party for P1 is almost over since the mature market will not tolerate such a premium for such a marginal improvement.

Will SOMEONE buy it? Sure, but that pool is shrinking and unless P1 can pull a rabbit out of their hat, I don't see how they will be able to survive even the next 5 years.

 

[DBF]

Where is the Impovement?
The Picture-Quality of P1 - 350 seemed quite ok to me.
After taking Pictures with P1 - 3100 I did not know should I laugh or should I cry.
Seeing the Sample-Photos from 4-150 I will not make one Footstep out of my House for trying it - it is ridiculous for me.
I have taken nearly the same Photo from Copenhagen with my H5D60 - what a Difference - hahaha....

 

[Vivek]

Lottery.

 

[JeRuFo]

Obviously Phase One is aware it is more and more a niche market they are operating in, that's also why the prices are what they are. If you have a need and use for it the investment is big but not ridiculous. If you compare the investments the average contractor or farmer has to do, photographers mainly have to do small risk investments. Once your business is at an IQ4 level you should be very well aware what your investments can be.

 

[MrSmith]

Do you earn money for wearing a Rolex?
Don´t think so unless you are a celebrity who is being payed for doing it.

if i could buy a GMT master-II pepsi new today i could flip it for an instant £5k profit tomorrow. if i had purchased a Kermit/Hulk submariner 5-10 years ago i would have made more than inflation, if i had purchased a Rolex Daytona at the same time i would have made a few £k. even a standard stainless submariner will not cost you anything as inflation takes care of the servicing (which is now every 5-10 years).

a bit of astute purchasing would have paid for an IQ150

 

[Jack]

Folks, keep the discussion friendly. One of you is getting snarky and has had to have their post edited, so consider yourself warned that if you keep hammering in that direction, you will get a time out.

 

[Jack]

Now for a comment on the thread

Facts:

1) Sensors are going to continue to get more dense; and likely with a major "upgrade" about every 18 months.
2) Internal processing enhancements will advance at a similar rate, and hence output speeds will remain at the very least, stable.
3) Prices for the new stuff will be higher.
4) Many won't be able to afford -- or justify -- the expense.
5) Some have the luxury of money being no object.
6) Some in group 4 will always be jealous of those in group 5; and they show this by expressing non-need and furthermore disdain for the new product.
7) Others in group 4 really do not need the newest best to make their art.
8) It has always been this way.
9) GREAT images are made by the artist not the gear; great art is still being made on film and great images are still being made with 22MP DB's and great images are being made with cell phones too. Again, the equipment does not make the image, the photographer does...

Hence, if you want and can afford this new bad boy, I say GOOD ON YOU! Go get it, and share your art -- I personally can't wait to see it! Will we see a difference in online images? Yup -- especially when all the 100% crops are shown :lol: But that said, I still want to see art from your 22MP back if that's what you use. Or film if that's what you use. Cell phones, not so much, unless it's really good :ROTFL:

My .02 only -- carry on

PS: And for the record, if I could justify the funds I'd really like to have an IQ3 60 or 80, probably on a tech cam with three lenses. But alas, it's out of my practicality zone. And probably always will be...

 

[Jamgolf]

... And boycott the high prices. That'll cripple their cashflow.

BOYCOTT PHASE ONE PRICES, WE THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER!

BUT WE HAVE THE POWER. CALL DEALERS, TELL THEM TO GO TO XXXX WITH THAT OFFER AND SKIP P1 FOR A YEAR OR TWO.

Since we do have the power, perhaps we can also boycott Ferrari and bring them to their senses
I hear you that prices are too high, but so are the prices of so many other things in life.
Just because something is not in my budget does not mean I should tell dealers and go to XXXX.

You pay 45k in Y1, by Y3 your stuff is only worth 20k and then it drops to 5k in another 3 years. Like 6-7k depreciation p.a.! Or you throw 500 USD out of the window each month.

With electronic devices that depreciation is simply a fact of life. Desktop computers, laptops, flat screen televisions, video/graphics cards, etc. Its not unique to Phase One. All electronic devices go through steep depreciation because technology is always evolving. On the other hand, the 10 year old plasma TV or 10 year old digital back still performs, as it did the day it was purchased.

Perhaps the real issue is our inability to curb our lust for shinnier things