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Thread: .3FR to .3FR

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    .3FR to .3FR

    With the risk of making a fool out of myself....

    If I have a raw file, .3FR from my X1D - can I tweak it to my liking and save it as a .3FR file again?

    Many years ago I have a weak memory that with the Credo 60 I could tweak the file in C1 and then save it to a .EIP file! Am I right that it only saved the raw file with my tweaks, visible, but it still remained in the RAW format? I cannot remember for sure.

    Is there an equivalent for the Hasselblad file?
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    It’s a generally bad idea to make any change to the structure or content of a raw file; software designed to look at the raw file may produce an error or odd behavior on raw files that have been modified from their out-of-camera native raw format.

    So the traditional long-term friendly methods of keeping track of adjustments made to a raw file are to either use a sidecar (eg the XML that ACR creates), or a centralized database (eg the catalog that LR creates). Both of those have significant disadvantages. The sidecar has to be forever-more kept alongside and named-the-same-as the raw file. The centralized database is vulnerable to corruption or other loss causing widespread loss. Neither method is very modular or portable, which is a problem in workflows involving more than one computer (e.g. laptop in the field + desktop at home), or project workflows in which projects are coming in and out of your work pipeline.

    P1 offers both of those workflows: C1 Sessions (without EIP) use the sidecar method, C1 Catalogs use the centralized database method. But P1 also offers a third method: EIP.

    Capture One, for any raw file it supports, can PACK the original-and-unmodified raw file inside an EIP container, alongside the settings/adjustment file and any other required files (eg LCC or custom ICC profile etc). This maintains complete portability/modularity and is not vulnerable to a single corruption having a widespread effect. And it doesn’t change the raw file itself in any way. C1 can always unpack the raw file from an EIP in case you need it (eg to open in another raw software that doesn’t understand EIPs). C1 can also automatically pack raws as EIPs upon import or upon capture, so using EIP needn't require any additional user steps/clicks/time.

    For those technically inclined, EIP is a backronym ostensibly standing for Enhanced Image Package, but is derived from the fact it’s a renamed ZIP file. The zip format is a very well established archival format (created 1989; still very widely used), so should you ever need to (eg 50 years from now when C1 is no more, and you interact with raw files via neural implant) you can rename the extension from EIP to ZIP and use any zip software (including any current OS) to unpack the original raw file without using C1 (of course as long as long as you have easy access to C1 it’s faster and easier to use C1 to unpack the EIP).

    We cover these topics very deeply in our Capture One Training as they have a widespread impact on practical daily workflow.

    I'm not aware of a similar feature in Hasselblad's Phocus software, but as you know DT chooses to specialize in Phase One digital and so we are not experts on Phocus.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 13th August 2019 at 06:10.
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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Thanks Doug for detailed answer!!

    "PACK the original-and-unmodified raw file inside an EIP container, alongside the settings/adjustment file"

    This is exactly what I tried to ask! Just to clarify, I only wanted the receiver to see my vision of the image and not to deceive the quality of the unmodified file.

    Wish I could do that with a Hasselblad raw!
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    Thanks Doug for detailed answer!!

    "PACK the original-and-unmodified raw file inside an EIP container, alongside the settings/adjustment file"

    This is exactly what I tried to ask! Just to clarify, I only wanted the receiver to see my vision of the image and not to deceive the quality of the unmodified file.

    Wish I could do that with a Hasselblad raw!
    Indeed. That's one of the primary benefits of EIP. You can share with a 3rd party and they will see your raw file, exactly as you left it, but maintain the option to modify the adjustments as they need.

    For example a retoucher receiving an EIP will see the image with your adjustments/styling and any retouch notes (C1 has an "annotation feature" which allows you to mark up the image), but will be able to, for example, decrease the contrast and reduce the sharpening in a way that is relevant to their retouching workflow.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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  5. #5
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Brilliant feature!
    Alpa 12 Plus TC | Schneider 90N | Schneider 120N | Hasselblad X1D | XCD 21 | XCD 45 | XCD 90 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    With the risk of making a fool out of myself....

    If I have a raw file, .3FR from my X1D - can I tweak it to my liking and save it as a .3FR file again?

    Many years ago I have a weak memory that with the Credo 60 I could tweak the file in C1 and then save it to a .EIP file! Am I right that it only saved the raw file with my tweaks, visible, but it still remained in the RAW format? I cannot remember for sure.

    Is there an equivalent for the Hasselblad file?
    AFAIK, the only way to do it is to convert your .3FR files into DNG format. Tweaks in Lightroom can be stored inside DNG with appropriate catalog setting. You can copy that file to other Lightrooms catalogs (of same or higher version), and all edits are preserved.

    The disadvantage of such a method is that every small change in the image will result in a changed 100Mb file and must, therefore, be whole backed up (instead of only the XMP file).
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    Member mristuccia's Avatar
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    Thanks Doug for detailed answer!!

    "PACK the original-and-unmodified raw file inside an EIP container, alongside the settings/adjustment file"

    This is exactly what I tried to ask! Just to clarify, I only wanted the receiver to see my vision of the image and not to deceive the quality of the unmodified file.

    Wish I could do that with a Hasselblad raw!
    If you and your receiver use the Hasselblad Phocus software, then the workflow is as follows (at least for my CFV-50c RAW files):

    1. Import the .3FR files into Phocus. They will turn into .FFF files which are still fully featured RAW files, editable by Phocus (and LR as well). If you tether, then you'll get directly the .FFF files without even passing through the intermediate .3FRs.
    2. Open an .FFF RAW file in Phocus and edit it to your taste.
    3. Close Phocus or move to another image. Phocus will store the latest development settings directly into the edited .FFF RAW file.
    4. Send the .FFF file to your receiver. By opening it in Phocus all your custom edits will still be there. So in this case it is even simpler than having an EIP or any sidecar accompanying the RAW file. The RAW data and the development settings are stored into the same file.


    If you use LR, just put the .3FR (or .FFF) file together with its sidecar into a zip file and send them to your receiver.
    Last edited by mristuccia; 15th August 2019 at 13:22.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    If you and your receiver use the Hasselblad Phocus software, then the workflow is as follows (at least for my CFV-50c RAW files):

    1. Import the .3FR files into Phocus. They will turn into .FFF files which are still fully featured RAW files, editable by Phocus (and LR as well). If you tether, then you'll get directly the .FFF files without even passing through the intermediate .3FRs.
    2. Open an .FFF RAW file in Phocus and edit it to your taste.
    3. Close Phocus or move to another image. Phocus will store the latest development settings directly into the edited .FFF RAW file.
    4. Send the .FFF file to your receiver. By opening it in Phocus all your custom edits will still be there. So in this case it is even simpler than having an EIP or any sidecar accompanying the RAW file. The RAW data and the development settings are stored into the same file.



    If you use LR, just put the .3FR (or .FFF) file together with its sidecar into a zip file and send them to your receiver.
    Thank you very much Marco

    I tried it right now and works exactly as you write, GREAT! In Focus it opens up with modifications visible but still in RAW mode. (Interestingly it reverts to original raw without modifications if opened in Camera Raw in PS.)
    Alpa 12 Plus TC | Schneider 90N | Schneider 120N | Hasselblad X1D | XCD 21 | XCD 45 | XCD 90 | www.danlindberg.com

  9. #9
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
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    Re: .3FR to .3FR

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    Thank you very much Marco

    I tried it right now and works exactly as you write, GREAT! In Focus it opens up with modifications visible but still in RAW mode. (Interestingly it reverts to original raw without modifications if opened in Camera Raw in PS.)
    You're welcome Dan!
    Phocus and LR/Camera Raw use different ways to store the development info: LR uses its catalog and/or the sidecar .XMP file, Camera Raw only uses the sidecar, Phocus stores its settings in the metadata area of the .FFF file itself.
    So LR and Camera Raw cannot read the development info stored by Phocus and viceversa. If you want to work your developed file further in PS you should either export a TIFF file from Phocus or develop the 3FR file directly in Camera Raw and then move on to PS.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by mristuccia; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:44.
    Marco Ristuccia
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