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Thread: First real review of the DPQ2

  1. #251
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by adsf View Post
    If its really because of the lack of brightness contrast, that the top layer cannot see, there is no cure (if its strictly one color per layer)
    Absent a solution, it is surely the end of the Quattro technology in serious photography. So I hope there is a solution.

    Think about it. The whole rationale of Foveon, the reason for its appeal, is greater accuracy and a lack of colour aliasing artefacts. This was achieved by stacking RGB layers, each with the same number of pixels. It worked superbly in the Merill series. I have thousands of shots to prove it.

    The Quattro design, by contrast, is a compromise, introduced for cost and processing reasons. If the new design replaces Bayer sensor problems with a new set of issues, then the appeal is lost. Worse, if the new problems are unpredictable, then there is no way to plan for them.

    Perhaps I am being melodramatic. Maybe there is a solution. But as a fan of the Merrill, and a potential fan of the Quattro, its a depressing situation.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Again, while not an ideal situation---I'd point out that this is early days for the sensor and software combination. Having said that, it's always good form to contact Sigma/Foveon with examples of problems, and give them the feedback directly. And there's nothing in the book that says Sigma can't go with a next gen sensor that's the same design as the 'traditional' X3 sensor (like the Merrill).

    Jim

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    So we are the Beta testers for Sigma?

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    I would say definitely yes. Beta testers. How in Heavens name did the sensor/FW or what else pass QA in Sigma?
    It is truly a sad story even it can be fixed.
    My wish is the Merrill Foveon sensor were given to a real camera manufacturer and sure much more would come out of it.

    Beware Canon working at full power launching their Foveon sensor based camera.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    G43:

    Hah. Canon has been rumored to be working at this for the last 10 years. Nada. All the major players had an opportunity to buy Foveon (or use the sensors)... none did so other than Sigma. Sigma's the only company that's had the willingness to invest and put the effort into it.

    You can certainly complain all you want about being beta testers---it just tells me that you're late coming into the Sigma camera family (I started with an SD10). But in reality, lots of cameras get released with bugs in firmware or hardware (or software) that get sorted out later. Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Ricoh, Leica---they've all done this to some extent.

    Do I wish they did hardware/software rollouts better? Sure... But this is not atypical for a smaller outfit that is resource constrained... And in the US, you can test one out for yourself without buying.

    Jim
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  6. #256
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Yeah... I've heard Canon blabber a great deal about their Foveon. Blabbering of course doesn't help much neither we know anything on how it performs. But surely not good enough yet, otherwise I should say we've seen it in the market. Companies like Canon probably have some headache seeing Sony spitting one brilliant sensor out after the other.

    I am very late entering the Sigma camera world, but not their lens world of which Sigmas ART series rivals.
    I owned Canon 5D and 6D the later years. Flawless cameras as from the beginning with only minor bugs. Neither my EM1 had serious bugs, but got a few useful additional features added.
    The only flawed camera I owned the later years was a Fuji X100. That sucked in the beginning due to lack of focus track in general. It was fixed after the third FW update.

    I just think it is unusual a camera misses to record colors and even textures in the red channel.
    I am really not complaining but rather expressing my disappointment. I had the DP2Q order and paid and while waiting I started to see what I do not like to see. Order cancelled and money returned

    Being a DP123M owner now (haven't arrived yet) will not lead to disappointments in any way. The strengths and weaknesses has been described so thoroughly on the internet.

  7. #257
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    .......Being a DP123M owner now (haven't arrived yet) will not lead to disappointments in any way....
    We make a bet?
    At least you will be surprised here and there.
    But all in all a wise decision to get the Merrills,

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Looks like the Quattro may have a fatal flaw, as reported (in English) on the Sigma rumours website The Quattro and the "Beer Garden" Issue
    This makes a lot of sense. Yellow uses red and green - mainly the two layers the Quattro has in 1/4th the resolution of a traditional X3 design.

    That said, Sigma can improve the algorithms to try to improve on this, but it is certainly one of the tradeoffs of the Quattro design.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    We make a bet?
    At least you will be surprised here and there.
    But all in all a wise decision to get the Merrills,
    Hehe.. yes let's have a small bet I am not sure I should encounter any worse problem than already described by the many owners.
    The Merrills are not a replacement of my present camera system that's insane responsive. Merrills are for fine art photography and landscapes basically.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2


  11. #261
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Zoom in on the water in the sunset shot and you can see purple blotchiness affecting the water. This is the biggest issue I now have with the Quattro and it also affects Merrill cameras.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Has anyone seen anything anywhere that indicates and documents a consistent and distinct advantage to the Quattro over the Merrill? I have not seen it.

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    The image of the cat has magenta color bleeding on the fur @ ISO400.
    Green tomato and garden flower leaves look artificial. And no one sees the difference in a way DPQ renders clouds compared to DPMs?
    BTW, nice images, I'm not sure IR staff used a tripod for 1/60s shots...

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Is it only me who sees the haze or shall we call it fine dust layer over the files? It is like a mated coating separates the viewer from the scene.
    I don't see this phenomenon with DPM images that I think shows ultra transparency.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Diglloyd and Ming Thein published a conversation on gear today.

    Here's what they meant about the DPQ.

    You may see the whole conversation here: Discussions: MT x Lloyd Chambers on the Pentax 645Z and Nikon D810

    ________________________________________

    Lloyd:
    That DP2 Quattro… disappointed. Smearing. Ends the Merrill line. Maybe it’s software though (faint hope).
    Ming Thein:
    I was told from an inside source that new SW and DPP are coming in the next week that should fix it.
    Lloyd:
    I have not been successful in processing even one image on my Mac Pro with SPP 6. Every edit window pops up off screen.
    Ming Thein:
    Played with one last couple of days – my printmaster here works with Sigma for various things – I was surprised by how slow it was and how noisy it was, too. Not much improvement over the Merrills that I can see, other than blue color accuracy.
    Lloyd:
    I have some nice martian rocks for you.
    Ming Thein:
    Now I’ve lost you.
    Lloyd:
    SPP 6 leaves developer hooks in… sleep system… hang with password dialog to debug… shoddy work.
    Ming Thein:
    Is it just me, or do you feel like the first round of consumers are increasingly becoming beta testers these days?
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  16. #266
    Member octagone's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2


  17. #267
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Diglloyd and Ming Thein published a conversation on gear today.

    Here's what they meant about the DPQ.

    You may see the whole conversation here: Discussions: MT x Lloyd Chambers on the Pentax 645Z and Nikon D810

    ________________________________________

    Lloyd:
    That DP2 Quattro disappointed. Smearing. Ends the Merrill line. Maybe its software though (faint hope).
    Ming Thein:
    I was told from an inside source that new SW and DPP are coming in the next week that should fix it.
    Lloyd:
    I have not been successful in processing even one image on my Mac Pro with SPP 6. Every edit window pops up off screen.
    Ming Thein:
    Played with one last couple of days my printmaster here works with Sigma for various things I was surprised by how slow it was and how noisy it was, too. Not much improvement over the Merrills that I can see, other than blue color accuracy.
    Lloyd:
    I have some nice martian rocks for you.
    Ming Thein:
    Now Ive lost you.
    Lloyd:
    SPP 6 leaves developer hooks in sleep system hang with password dialog to debug shoddy work.
    Ming Thein:
    Is it just me, or do you feel like the first round of consumers are increasingly becoming beta testers these days?
    Ye, exactly my first thought. He said it in a more diplomatic way than me
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by octagone View Post
    Well..yes. Hilarious resolution, admitted, though I miss the 3-D pop.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzoduomo View Post
    Has anyone seen anything anywhere that indicates and documents a consistent and distinct advantage to the Quattro over the Merrill? I have not seen it.
    Anyone? Buehler.....? Buehler....??
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Is it only me who sees the haze or shall we call it fine dust layer over the files? It is like a mated coating separates the viewer from the scene.
    I don't see this phenomenon with DPM images that I think shows ultra transparency.
    I sort of see it in some of the color shots. Basically it's "one step towards AA Bayer."

    - Ricardo

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    I don't see any haze. I do see a different treatment of shadow areas which, left uncorrected, might look like haze. In Photoshop I apply a highlights and shadows correction of around 12-15, and auto levels if necessary (find dark and light tones) and I have a "normal" contrast range at the end. As for advantages, the Quattro has a resolution advantage that is noticeable to me and no greenish tinge to images. If as suggested the next iteration of SPP changes anything, will probably have to begin experimenting again....
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Thanks Quentin

    I'll download the SPP 6 and try to develop a Quattro RAW file, then see what I can do in PS.
    Where do you set the global contrast? In SPP or in PS by using curves? Using curves in PS normally alters the color balance, at least for Beyer sensor files, which then has to be corrected in a Hue and Color saturation layer. I don't know how this sensor reacts to those corrections in PS?

  23. #273
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I don't see any haze. I do see a different treatment of shadow areas which, left uncorrected, might look like haze. In Photoshop I apply a highlights and shadows correction of around 12-15, and auto levels if necessary (find dark and light tones) and I have a "normal" contrast range at the end. As for advantages, the Quattro has a resolution advantage that is noticeable to me and no greenish tinge to images. If as suggested the next iteration of SPP changes anything, will probably have to begin experimenting again....
    Well to me what I meant at least is that there's a bit of softness with the whole thing. That doesn't make it bad per se- but it makes it one step away from Foveon.

    Something has to give with 1/4th the resolution in two layers, however good the end result still looks like.

    For the record, I think at the lowest ISO the color images have better color than the Merrill, but somehow lose some of the "3d ness" of it. But I would be the first to agree that it seems Merrill shots from SPP come out what seems to be over sharpened.

    - Ricardo

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzoduomo View Post
    Has anyone seen anything anywhere that indicates and documents a consistent and distinct advantage to the Quattro over the Merrill? I have not seen it.
    mezzoduomo, You don't trust your eyes any more?
    There's an advantage in the image processing speed, battery life, and live-view quality. IQ wise, I don't see it. I'm not resolution hungry.
    Intricate, delicate details that my eyes don't notice during the shoot, are at my disposal at 100% magnification. This is what made me get DP M. You rediscover the image you've captured either on a screen or a print. DP Q doesn't do it for me.
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    As a quick example

    first horse image, as developed by SPP 6.04



    Same horse head image re-developed in SPP, reduced exposure and highlights slightly in SPP6.04, in Photoshop, Image > Adjust > Shadow / Highlights, Amount +12, then Levels, Find light and Dark Colours. Auto; and minor curves tweak.




    This is not intended to be a definitive example - its just a 10 minute quick demo - , but it is one possible starting point. More and better can be done, according to taste and desired end result.

    It's my wife's beautiful Spanish horse, by the way, eating our hedge
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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  26. #276
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    If the horse is to illustrate "Foveones" honestly I am not seeing it. It doesn't look bad and being resized down there's quite a few AAless cameras that can do a result like that.

    Someone else posted a DP3M shot... and the colors with the detail just jump. But also I think the Quattro overall has better color.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2


  28. #278
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Test Sigma dp2 Quattro - Zdj

    For the pixel peeper. The photographer should though overhaul his technique a bit.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    mezzoduomo, You don't trust your eyes any more?
    There's an advantage in the image processing speed, battery life, and live-view quality. IQ wise, I don't see it. I'm not resolution hungry.
    Intricate, delicate details that my eyes don't notice during the shoot, are at my disposal at 100% magnification. This is what made me get DP M. You rediscover the image you've captured either on a screen or a print. DP Q doesn't do it for me.
    I agree, I bought all 3 and now I am thinking about buying one more DP2M, just in case (perhaps the Merrills end as cult, and think about it ....if I lost one of them............

    I think I can print as huge as with a Nikon D800/E/810.

    And I do not think - for the time being - you can make a Foveon-sensor faster in handling or better iso-performance as the Bayer-sensors, it will take years, and years, so I am OK with that.

    I would have been so happy if they just had made a real eyefinder, I miss that, mostly shooting DSLRs. I have tryed to buy 2 substitutes/optional, but it is not the same as a real eye-finder, no dioptri in the optional, and the other solution, HoodLoupe can work, but...it got no use, it is too "wobly" and add to much to the size), ....and I would have bought it at once, even this was the only change.

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  31. #281
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    The new Quattro firmware and SPP are now available.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Good

  33. #283
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Is anyone with a Quattro noticing any difference at all in image quality with the new firmware and software ? Still the same?

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    I received my Quattro trial camera this morning. I had only a short time to use the camera today. All the negative and positive comments in the review from TCS ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ktvDUyTyU )rung true. That aside, I have been comparing the files to those from a 645D using the older 55mm A lens, which has approximately the same field of view as the 30mm on the Sigma. I have done this without any previous knowledge of Sigma software. I now understand your enthusiasm expressed for the output from this system; it competes quite favorably with the 645D. The sharpness is remarkable and the colors match those of the 645D very well and those of the actual scene. I photographed my garden and so could compare the Pentax and Sigma images to the view out my window at the same time. Admittedly, I have taken only a few shots and don't know what I'm doing with Sigma software, but I'm really impressed. Based on your comments, I may have to try a Merrill.

    Tom
    Last edited by tsjanik; 7th August 2014 at 05:57.

  35. #285
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    I received my Quattro trial camera this morning. I had only a short time to use the camera today. All the negative comments in the review rung true. That aside, I have been comparing the files to those from a 645D using the older 55mm A lens, which has approximately the same field of view as the 30mm on the Sigma. I have done this without any previous knowledge of Sigma software. I now understand your enthusiasm expressed for the output from this system; it competes quite favorably with the 645D. The sharpness is remarkable and the colors match those of the 645D very well and those of the actual scene. I photographed my garden and so could compare the Pentax and Sigma images to the view out my window at the same time. Admittedly, I have taken only a few shots and don't know what I'm doing with Sigma software, but I'm really impressed. Based on your comments, I may have to try a Merrill.

    Tom
    Hi Tom,
    Now you see what's been keeping me away from the MF forum these days. I would suggest you rent/try a Merrill before you decide to buy a DPQ. I rented all three DP Merrills from LensRental and slowly acquired them all. I also recently sprang for a SD1 Merrill for studio work and could not be happier. I still love my MF lenses and ALPA Max, but I find myself using the Sigma Merrill cameras more and more. Unfortunately, Sigma's software has been a mess from the get go, so I import the X3F files as TIFF files into Lightroom and post-process from there.

    Welcome to the Foveon experience and I am sure glad your here!

    Kind regards,
    Darr
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    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    ... and the colors match those of the 645D very well ....Based on your comments, I may have to try a Merrill.

    Tom
    But be careful: With a Merrill this point is a little bit different.

  37. #287
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Note that he new Quattro firmware and SPP 6.05 are now both available for download.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Hi Tom,
    Now you see what's been keeping me away from the MF forum these days. I would suggest you rent/try a Merrill before you decide to buy a DPQ. I rented all three DP Merrills from LensRental and slowly acquired them all. I also recently sprang for a SD1 Merrill for studio work and could not be happier. I still love my MF lenses and ALPA Max, but I find myself using the Sigma Merrill cameras more and more. Unfortunately, Sigma's software has been a mess from the get go, so I import the X3F files as TIFF files into Lightroom and post-process from there.

    Welcome to the Foveon experience and I am sure glad your here!

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    Darr-

    In this regard, I decided to try out a Fuji X-e1 after all the good things I'd heard about them.

    So far the image quality doesn't even touch the Merrill.

    Actually, I've found it disappointing and will likely return it.

    Guess you get spoiled using a Merrill.

  39. #289
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Note that he new Quattro firmware and SPP 6.05 are now both available for download.
    You missed my heads up to you at post # 281.

    Guess you don't look back at posts.

    You might want to try that.


  40. #290
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    The DP2 Quattro is now in stock at Sigma USA.
    Carl
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    You missed my heads up to you at post # 281.

    Guess you don't look back at posts.

    You might want to try that.

    How is it then Ute?

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quattro owners and potential buyers, look or don't look behind DigLloyds paywall. You do not want to read what he concluded comparing M with Q. Newer read anything like it on his site.

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    ...You do not want to read what he concluded comparing M with Q....
    I`m not a member of this site, but curious, so can you give a short conclusio please.
    IMO the m shows much more detail, and this you cannot get from postproduction, you can improve micro contrast etc, but details are here or not.

  44. #294
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote

    ....The dp2 Quattro lacks all the positive attributes of the DP2 Merrill and acquires many of the negative aspects of a Bayer matrix camera all with awful overall color.

    ....at this writing your author has no choice but to reject it as being not ready for the market. No serious photographer could accept the miserable results for the dp2 Quattro seen here along with the ridiculous burden imposed by Sigma Photo Pro in obtaining those poor results.

    When the detail and color smearing and overall color rendition issues, molasses-slow software, awkward bulky new ergonomics, and highly restricted focus points are added in, the dp2 Quattro is not a camera your author would have any intent to acquire......

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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Thanks,
    interpolation is interpolation,

    I hope
    sigma will go back to "merrillish" chipdesigns in the future, and
    the prices for the Merrills will not increase

  46. #296
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    Darr-

    In this regard, I decided to try out a Fuji X-e1 after all the good things I'd heard about them.

    So far the image quality doesn't even touch the Merrill.

    Actually, I've found it disappointing and will likely return it.

    Guess you get spoiled using a Merrill.

    Michael,
    I rented an X-T1 after using the Merrills for a few months and walked away disappointed. I did however like its EVF, ergonomics and button setup, but the files could not compare to the X3F file quality IMO. I think we have been spoiled by the Merrills.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

  47. #297
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Guys

    The XT-1 is a camera who need a far more long learning curve than any DP camera.

    That said, there is no camera yet, at around 1k, who deliver that pixel sharpness (quattro included).

    Now, the XT-1 is one of the most serious APS-C camera out there. For me, it is the most serious because, what is more important in any photography is homogeneity and color fidelity.

    The XT-1 have it at almost all ISO settings (ISO less) and , at a sharpness level, can deliver some outstanding details. I have no time yet to show you example because I'm exhausted by my work but I can prove you that the XT-1 can be close to merril under some precise events.

    So, spoiled by the Merrill yes... but not that much, after all
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  48. #298
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Well thank goodness I did not waste my money to read such utter tosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Quote

    ....The dp2 Quattro lacks all the positive attributes of the DP2 Merrill and acquires many of the negative aspects of a Bayer matrix camera all with awful overall color.

    ....at this writing your author has no choice but to reject it as being not ready for the market. No serious photographer could accept the miserable results for the dp2 Quattro seen here along with the ridiculous burden imposed by Sigma Photo Pro in obtaining those poor results.

    When the detail and color smearing and overall color rendition issues, molasses-slow software, awkward bulky new ergonomics, and highly restricted focus points are added in, the dp2 Quattro is not a camera your author would have any intent to acquire......
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, leading individual, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #299
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Guys

    The XT-1 is a camera who need a far more long learning curve than any DP camera.

    That said, there is no camera yet, at around 1k, who deliver that pixel sharpness (quattro included).

    Now, the XT-1 is one of the most serious APS-C camera out there. For me, it is the most serious because, what is more important in any photography is homogeneity and color fidelity.

    The XT-1 have it at almost all ISO settings (ISO less) and , at a sharpness level, can deliver some outstanding details. I have no time yet to show you example because I'm exhausted by my work but I can prove you that the XT-1 can be close to merril under some precise events.

    So, spoiled by the Merrill yes... but not that much, after all
    Nice little camera. Very versatile.

    In my case, I am not satisfied w the image quality.

    So I guess I am spoiled. Permanently.


  50. #300
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: First real review of the DPQ2

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    How is it then Ute?
    No idea.

    I was just letting Quentin and others know that it was available.

    Quentin would be the one to ask.

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