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Thread: Shutter Shake and Macro

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    Shutter Shake and Macro

    I received my A7R yesterday and have been learning the camera. There is one issue that I was wondering if others might have observed.

    I am using a metabones adapter and I attached my Nikkor 200mm Macro lens.
    I have the lens mounted to an arca cube that is pretty rock solid. I am using focus magnification. If i use the 2 sec timer and my shutter speed is 1/200sec or higher-- perfect…. If i am slow the shutter down-- e.g changing the iso or turning down the studio light--- lets saw 1/100- 1/20 sec--- I cannot get a shot without some level of motion blur. It can be subtle but it is definitely there. I have tried to stabilize the lens and tripod with my body etc while the shutter trips without much success. I am wondering if there is enough shake from the shutter that is unavoidable that is going to be problematic for this type of shooting?

    As a control, I put my D800 on the lens and tried the same thing. At about 1/25 to 1/30 i could get about half the shots without any noticeable blur using mirror lock up and 2 second delay…
    Last edited by mark1958; 7th December 2013 at 21:02. Reason: added Nikon results

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I received my A7R yesterday and have been learning the camera. There is one issue that I was wondering if others might have observed.

    I am using a metabones adapter and I attached my Nikkor 200mm Macro lens.
    I have the lens mounted to an arca cube that is pretty rock solid. I am using focus magnification. If i use the 2 sec timer and my shutter speed is 1/200sec or higher-- perfect…. If i am slow the shutter down-- e.g changing the iso or turning down the studio light--- lets saw 1/100- 1/20 sec--- I cannot get a shot without some level of motion blur. It can be subtle but it is definitely there. I have tried to stabilize the lens and tripod with my body etc while the shutter trips without much success. I am wondering if there is enough shake from the shutter that is unavoidable that is going to be problematic for this type of shooting?

    As a control, I put my D800 on the lens and tried the same thing. At about 1/25 to 1/30 i could get about half the shots without any noticeable blur using mirror lock up and 2 second delay…
    Unfortunately, I found myself to have every few images in critical focus, and wondered about exactly this. The shutter doesn't appear very well dampened
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I received my A7R yesterday and have been learning the camera. There is one issue that I was wondering if others might have observed.

    I am using a metabones adapter and I attached my Nikkor 200mm Macro lens.
    I have the lens mounted to an arca cube that is pretty rock solid. I am using focus magnification. If i use the 2 sec timer and my shutter speed is 1/200sec or higher-- perfect…. If i am slow the shutter down-- e.g changing the iso or turning down the studio light--- lets saw 1/100- 1/20 sec--- I cannot get a shot without some level of motion blur. It can be subtle but it is definitely there. I have tried to stabilize the lens and tripod with my body etc while the shutter trips without much success. I am wondering if there is enough shake from the shutter that is unavoidable that is going to be problematic for this type of shooting?

    As a control, I put my D800 on the lens and tried the same thing. At about 1/25 to 1/30 i could get about half the shots without any noticeable blur using mirror lock up and 2 second delay…

    I can't relate to your experience as I do not have the cube or the 200/4 Micro Nikkor. I do have the 12cm Macro Nikkor. One of these days, i will get around to checking that out.

    I would suggest that you check the adapter joints to see if there is any play at either end. Also, try mounting it differently (using the lens or the adapter). The CG (center of gravity) matters a lot and is affected by how a lens is hung on the camera.
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Great idea on varying the mounting location.
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    I mounted the lens.. I cannot see how this would change mounting from the adapter. Mounting from the camera would be worse… it is a heavy lens. I just saw another thread on a different web site claiming the same issue on longer focal length lenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I can't relate to your experience as I do not have the cube or the 200/4 Micro Nikkor. I do have the 12cm Macro Nikkor. One of these days, i will get around to checking that out.

    I would suggest that you check the adapter joints to see if there is any play at either end. Also, try mounting it differently (using the lens or the adapter). The CG (center of gravity) matters a lot and is affected by how a lens is hung on the camera.

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    I tried a test yesterday with the A7r and the Schneider 120 TS (Mamiya mount) and the results were fantastic. In fact, I compared the results to the same shot performed with the Leica S and I found the A7r to be more detailed. Shutter speed was 125/sec and sharpness was fine using studio lights.

    It's a bit time consuming to focus using Auto ISO and then switching to the desired ISO before taking the final shot but overall, it's nice to be able to use lenses of this quality. The A7r will definitely get a still-life workout.

    First Image is with the A7r and the second is with the Leica S. Both with the Schneider 120 TS at 125/sec and f11. Obviously, the focal length changes because of the sensor size.
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    My stated issue is really noticeable at shutter speeds less than 1/125. Of course i was using a lens with a focal length of 200mm. I could try longer and shorter focal length lenses as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    I tried a test yesterday with the A7r and the Schneider 120 TS (Mamiya mount) and the results were fantastic. In fact, I compared the results to the same shot performed with the Leica S and I found the A7r to be more detailed. Shutter speed was 125/sec and sharpness was fine using studio lights.

    It's a bit time consuming to focus using Auto ISO and then switching to the desired ISO before taking the final shot but overall, it's nice to be able to use lenses of this quality. The A7r will definitely get a still-life workout.

    First Image is with the A7r and the second is with the Leica S. Both with the Schneider 120 TS at 125/sec and f11. Obviously, the focal length changes because of the sensor size.

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Shutter shake is one of the issues I have been concerned about regarding the A7r. I still have not received mine due to UPS issues and am having some real concerns after seeing various threads and Loyd Chambers current review. He also had/has concerns regarding the Sony fps. I was once the proud owner of an Alpa FPS when, after three days, started to seriously look at my images only to be shocked at the degree of shake induced by the FPS. I immediately sent it back.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    I tried a test yesterday with the A7r and the Schneider 120 TS (Mamiya mount) and the results were fantastic. In fact, I compared the results to the same shot performed with the Leica S and I found the A7r to be more detailed. Shutter speed was 125/sec and sharpness was fine using studio lights.

    It's a bit time consuming to focus using Auto ISO and then switching to the desired ISO before taking the final shot but overall, it's nice to be able to use lenses of this quality. The A7r will definitely get a still-life workout.

    First Image is with the A7r and the second is with the Leica S. Both with the Schneider 120 TS at 125/sec and f11. Obviously, the focal length changes because of the sensor size.
    I found that the best test for shutter shake was to shoot a building from a distance of about 100 to 200 feet. There should be enough building to fill the frame top to bottom or side to side. If there's shake it will show up under those circumstances. I also test at shutter speeds between 1/2 second to 1/60 second as I am shooting at those speeds often when I use my Alpa.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I mounted the lens.. I cannot see how this would change mounting from the adapter. Mounting from the camera would be worse… it is a heavy lens. I just saw another thread on a different web site claiming the same issue on longer focal length lenses.
    Yes, it is a foot long lens, isn't it? I would never ever mount the camera with any lens (other than the FE ones) on a tripod! It will rip the tripod attachment in the camera (which isn't built into the chassis like the Nikon D800, in fact the A7/7R do not have a chassis but have different plates put together!) and damage the camera mount.

    The Metabones adapter comes with a tripod foot.
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    To clarify I mounted from the lens.. which has a tripod foot. However, i just connected my adapter to the tripod and used the Nikon 100mm macro and this time used the metabones foot on the tripod and saw no or little evidence of vibration blur. Then i went back and did the same with the 200mm nikkor-- this time using the metabones foot and there is a huge improvement over what I was seeing using the lens foot.. amazing. I guess i was wrong on how much of a difference that made. To be specific there is still some difference but it is much more more subtle. I suspect that if i do the same with the D800 might find similar results but will do another side by side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes, it is a foot long lens, isn't it? I would never ever mount the camera with any lens (other than the FE ones) on a tripod! It will rip the tripod attachment in the camera (which isn't built into the chassis like the Nikon D800, in fact the A7/7R do not have a chassis but have different plates put together!) and damage the camera mount.

    The Metabones adapter comes with a tripod foot.
    Last edited by mark1958; 8th December 2013 at 09:37.
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    To clarify I mounted from the lens.. which has a tripod foot. However, i just connected my adapter to the tripod and used the Nikon 100mm macro and this time used the metabones foot on the tripod and saw no or little evidence of vibration blur. Then i went back and did the same with the 200mm nikkor-- this time using the metabones foot and there is a huge improvement over what I was seeing using the lens foot.. amazing. I guess i was wrong on how much of a difference that made.
    Ha! I was going to post this wonderful example:


    Sony A7R, Apo Makro Componon 60/4, 1/30s, ISO500, 1X, A Digilux tablepod

    (I can upload a RAW file of this if anyone cares)

    Thanks for coming back and reporting the improvement. As I said, the CG matters and it is not obvious.

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    What also matters in this case is the difference in focal length. Shooting at 1:1 with a 60mm lens is very different from doing the same with a 200mm lens. The latter is far more sensitive to vibration-induced blur.

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    What also matters in this case is the difference in focal length. Shooting at 1:1 with a 60mm lens is very different from doing the same with a 200mm lens. The latter is far more sensitive to vibration-induced blur.
    The OP never said that he shot at 1X with the 200mm lens! Of course, it matters!

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    I'm glad we agree, Vivek!

    I've taken a good number of images with the APO-Telyt-M 135 this afternoon (more on that in your thread about this lens), and have to say that shutter vibration is more of an issue with the A7R than it should be, IMO. Not a show stopper, but certainly something that needs to be considered carefully if highly detailed images are what you're after...

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The OP never said that he shot at 1X with the 200mm lens! Of course, it matters!
    I did state that i shot with a 200mm at 1/200 and higher.. original post

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Ron, The key here is where the set up is connected to the tripod. The center of gravity of the set up matters. It has nothing to do with the A7R per se but applies to any set up.

    On the APO Telyt 135/3.4, I look forward to your samples!

    Does anyone know how "easy" it is to use a 135mm lens with a Leica camera?

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I did state that i shot with a 200mm at 1/200 and higher.. original post
    Was that at 1:1 magnification?

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Not quite..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The OP never said that he shot at 1X with the 200mm lens! Of course, it matters!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Was that at 1:1 magnification?

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    Does anyone know how "easy" it is to use a 135mm lens with a Leica camera?
    I use/used my 135 f3.4 apo on my M7 and M8 without any problems. I also had used it in the past on the R-D1. I sometimes use a magnifying eyepiece which helps, but not really necessary.

    HTH,

    Joel

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by JoelM View Post
    I use/used my 135 f3.4 apo on my M7 and M8 without any problems. I also had used it in the past on the R-D1. I sometimes use a magnifying eyepiece which helps, but not really necessary.

    HTH,

    Joel
    I use the 135 APO Telyt on my M's and Monochrom without issue as well - 1/125th is usually adequate.

    I imagine the electronic first curtain on the A7 would help matters noticeably. It seems hard to think that the KerChunk noise on the A7r isn't going to cause some sort of shake.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by JoelM View Post
    I use/used my 135 f3.4 apo on my M7 and M8 without any problems. I also had used it in the past on the R-D1. I sometimes use a magnifying eyepiece which helps, but not really necessary.

    HTH,

    Joel
    In my hands the one word that describes a 135mm plus a Leica M is- unwieldy.

    For the price of a magnifier, I can get a couple of lenses for the A7R. Luckily I do have an OVF for the 135mm but framing and focus are major problems.

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    Re: Shutter Shake and Macro

    When mounting a camera on a tripod there is also the matter of harmonics that comes into play.

    Years ago I had a Nikkor 400/5.6 PC which was probably one of the best lenses of the era; definitely the best Nikkor telephoto of its time. I had/have a Gitzo 509?? 5 series Geant tripod that was used mostly for high viewpoint sinar-p 8x10 shots as it is a bear to carry around for general use, and have a Foba 2 axes head that makes the Cube seem flimsy.

    No matter if the mirror was locked up on the Nikon F2 and the the weather was dead calm, I couldn't get a sharp shot at 1/125sec when the lens and camera were mounted on the tripod. If I added the motor drive (but had it shut off) or added an extension tube I could get sharper shots. If I used a much flimsier Gitzo pan tilt head the shots were also sharper. If I used the camera/lens combination handheld, my hit rate of sharp shots at 1/125sec was over 90% (I was also 40 years younger).

    There are many factors in play in enhancing or reducing shutter vibrations. It just seems that the A7r seems more than usually problematic.

    Henning
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