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Thread: Shutter Vibration

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    From your samples I doubt that there is anything to worry about unless there are some loose sensors out there. Could that happen? Who the heck knows.
    Super teles are always a crap shoot. I get MUCH better results on calm days.
    I also think there might be a touch of folks looking to create controversy one tough thing about drawing conclusions from a test is to see how repeatable that test is and what happens when some parameters are varied.
    Perhaps the camera appreciates your old tripod. Experienced hands Eh?
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Do not know what is going on with other folks, but I'm glad it isn't happeing to me ... for once -
    +1

    Thanks for running the test Marc. I'm glad I haven't seen any vibration either.

    I don't doubt those that see something with their gear.

    Joe
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Bob, part of the assertion was shutter shock effecting normal focal lengths to short teles at certain slower shutter speeds ... specifically a 90 was mentioned ... (as well as super teles which are always demanding).

    It is supposed to be more pronounced when shooting in portrait mode.

    All I care about are normals and short telephotos used for people work. Thus testing my 75/2AA, 90/2.8 Elmarit, and the FE55.

    Even really large on my 30" screens I can't replicate that. Perhaps a touch @200%, but man that isn't splitting hairs, it's splitting the atoms that make up the hairs.

    I also discovered that the 75/2AA produces some CA out toward the edges which softens it a tad ...but no matter, I use that lens for portraits and vignette the edges anyway. The M90/2.8 was fine. At f/5.6 the FE55 is sharp out to the corners.

    Also noted that the Auto WB is very good on this camera, but better when using the FE lens

    Here are three portrait oriented shots montaged together ... FE55 and strobe, M90 at 1/40, FE55 at 1/40.

    Do not know what is going on with other folks, but I'm glad it isn't happeing to me ... for once -

    -Marc

    If you had gotten shutter shake with your set of lenses my first reaction would have been there must be something wrong with the technical approach. I think the A7R is a wonderful tool and it delivers the goodies when used with the necessary care.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    The pot appears to have been stirred. Marc, thanks for the test and my apologies. On reread I see that my last paragraph could be taken for condescension. Not intended. I am just trying to reflect that quite a few A7r owners are not bothered by blur, whether I think it is present or not. In your case, it appears that shutter blur is very low - if present at all. In my hands, I see a subtle softening very consistently with the 90 (in the 1/4-1/100 range) and it doesn't much matter if I use a light travel tripod or a Foba studio stand. BTW, I attach an AS plate to the camera and mount that directly in Sinar head, AS Cube, or various ball heads. Haven't tried collars.

    The comments I refer to in the third paragraph extend over a number of weeks, threads and sites. Given this thread and many other comments on the web, most people would now report to Sony (and thank you ferrellmc for the Sony link) that blur can be evident under some conditions and with some lenses. Certainly, K-H has shown very marked effects with long lenses. It just seems to me that the A7r is a bit more (compared to my other cameras) subject to problems with shorter lenses as well.

    Again, I agree with those who find the FE55 to be almost immune. Here is an image (f2.5) with lots of detail and two 200% crops, one at 0.5 and one at 1/30. Cheap aluminum tripod and tiny ball head. No treatment other than WB (minor). At 100% I cannot reliably pick which is which. That's my test. At 200% I can spot the VERY subtle softening (check out the yellow DG label) at 1/30 but it would not affect my use of the camera. I am very pleased with this lens.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    If these are 200% crops then I would run, not walk and get the A7R + FE55. Nice collection BTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Again, I agree with those who find the FE55 to be almost immune. Here is an image (f2.5) with lots of detail and two 200% crops, one at 0.5 and one at 1/30. Cheap aluminum tripod and tiny ball head. No treatment other than WB (minor). At 100% I cannot reliably pick which is which. That's my test. At 200% I can spot the VERY subtle softening (check out the yellow DG label) at 1/30 but it would not affect my use of the camera. I am very pleased with this lens.
    -- Eeraj

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    From your samples I doubt that there is anything to worry about unless there are some loose sensors out there. Could that happen? Who the heck knows.
    Super teles are always a crap shoot. I get MUCH better results on calm days.
    I also think there might be a touch of folks looking to create controversy one tough thing about drawing conclusions from a test is to see how repeatable that test is and what happens when some parameters are varied.
    Perhaps the camera appreciates your old tripod. Experienced hands Eh?
    -bob
    Yes Bob, I think maybe the old war horse Tilt-All has come into its own again Bet it loved thumbing its nose at the high and mighty Gitzos

    What folks need is a sloppy old tripod with no cartilage in the legs ... oh, wait, that's MY legs I'm thinking of.

    Well, I can confidently pack the A7R for next week's job ... so it was worth the excruciatingly boring task of tested new gear ... wish I'd remember that the next time I THINK I want something new.

    - Marc
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Maybe it is my old eyes, but I have peered at lots of images that were supped to demonstrate shutter vibration blur.
    I just don't see it really.
    Shutter vibration blur usually has a directional component to it. Consider that the shutter is not bouncing around in all directions and there is no mirror slap to confuse.
    What I DO see from time to time is just old fashioned blur, of the sort that you might see in a lens that is not critically focused. I see more generally soft images than I would expect without a hint of directionality to the blur.
    Is it just my eyes or is there something with the focus that needs to be worked out?
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Bob, I do see it on some of my 90mm examples, but its not a biggie and is easily worked around. Bear in mind, I shot mine on a reasonable tripod on a hard floor. I wonder if the substrate has an impact here too. I've done all sorts with my 50mm lenses and seen nothing regardless of what I do.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Bob, I do see it on some of my 90mm examples, but its not a biggie and is easily worked around. Bear in mind, I shot mine on a reasonable tripod on a hard floor. I wonder if the substrate has an impact here too. I've done all sorts with my 50mm lenses and seen nothing regardless of what I do.
    Would you be so kind as to share a raw file with me?
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I wonder... if the mounts and adapters are all nice and snug.
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Maybe it is my old eyes, but I have peered at lots of images that were supped to demonstrate shutter vibration blur.
    I just don't see it really.
    Shutter vibration blur usually has a directional component to it. Consider that the shutter is not bouncing around in all directions and there is no mirror slap to confuse.
    What I DO see from time to time is just old fashioned blur, of the sort that you might see in a lens that is not critically focused. I see more generally soft images than I would expect without a hint of directionality to the blur.
    Is it just my eyes or is there something with the focus that needs to be worked out?
    -bob
    I found that you must be suspicious of the focus peaking with the normal viewfinder, and to be cautious of it at mag view unless the subject matter is flat like my studio test shots.

    What I think it may be doing is highlighting anything that is even boarder-line within the DOF ... but something that is more pronounced in contrast may light up more aggressively than the actual point of focus ... tricking you into thinking that it's the point of critical focus so you adjust a little ... when in reality it was okay. Just a guess, no proof.

    If I recall, there are three levels of sensitivity for peaking, and I think it takes more skill and practice than it appears on the surface.

    - Marc
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    One of the reasons I prefer phase driven af over contrast

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Bob, part of the assertion was shutter shock effecting normal focal lengths to short teles at certain slower shutter speeds ... specifically a 90 was mentioned ... (as well as super teles which are always demanding).

    It is supposed to be more pronounced when shooting in portrait mode.

    All I care about are normals and short telephotos used for people work. Thus testing my 75/2AA, 90/2.8 Elmarit, and the FE55.

    Even really large on my 30" screens I can't replicate that. Perhaps a touch @200%, but man that isn't splitting hairs, it's splitting the atoms that make up the hairs.

    I also discovered that the 75/2AA produces some CA out toward the edges which softens it a tad ...but no matter, I use that lens for portraits and vignette the edges anyway. The M90/2.8 was fine. At f/5.6 the FE55 is sharp out to the corners.

    Also noted that the Auto WB is very good on this camera, but better when using the FE lens

    Here are three portrait oriented shots montaged together ... FE55 and strobe, M90 at 1/40, FE55 at 1/40.

    Do not know what is going on with other folks, but I'm glad it isn't happeing to me ... for once -

    -Marc
    Thank you for sharing the tests. I too found similar results with the Nikon 85mm 1.4 and like you I don't shoot big telephotos. That said I'd still like Sony to give us a firmware update that gives us the option to set a delay after the first curtain closing. It certainly wouldn't hurt having it.

    A request can be emailed to Sony: [email protected]

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Will happily share a file, but travelling imminently so will come back to this when I have time to sort the files. How big a file will gmail handle?

    Everything seems as tight as can reasonably be worked with.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Maybe it is my old eyes, but I have peered at lots of images that were supped to demonstrate shutter vibration blur.
    I just don't see it really.
    Shutter vibration blur usually has a directional component to it. Consider that the shutter is not bouncing around in all directions and there is no mirror slap to confuse.
    What I DO see from time to time is just old fashioned blur, of the sort that you might see in a lens that is not critically focused. I see more generally soft images than I would expect without a hint of directionality to the blur.
    Is it just my eyes or is there something with the focus that needs to be worked out?
    -bob
    Bob, I agree that shutter vibration can have a directional component. I notice too that direction is dependent on landscape vs portrait orientation. Notice the D3 at slower shutter speeds @ 200mm. The full shebang write up is on my blog.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Maybe it is my old eyes, but I have peered at lots of images that were supped to demonstrate shutter vibration blur.
    I just don't see it really.
    Shutter vibration blur usually has a directional component to it. Consider that the shutter is not bouncing around in all directions and there is no mirror slap to confuse.
    What I DO see from time to time is just old fashioned blur, of the sort that you might see in a lens that is not critically focused. I see more generally soft images than I would expect without a hint of directionality to the blur.
    Is it just my eyes or is there something with the focus that needs to be worked out?
    -bob
    Bob, just to show how minimal blur is with the FE55 here are 300% crops. There is no focus difference present.

    Look at the far left side of the label. There is a yellow bar, then a fine black line, then a broader yellow area. That fine black line is blurred a bit at 1/30. A profile across there shows a degradation of contrast (about 30%) in the black line. I do not see a directional component. On my monitor, moire is also a little bit more moire evident in the half second image, as you would expect.

    Before everyone dismisses me as a hopeless pixel peeper let me stress that I am not showing this as an example of blur that I fault Sony for. Again, this was done with lousy mounting, there has been no sharpening, and who cares about flaws only visible at high zooms anyway? I cannot tell the difference in blind comparisons at 100%, and that is my own test for whether the blur matters. The FE55 meets my criteria for a "keeper".

    OK, I admit it. I'm a hopeless peeper and will seek professional help.
    Last edited by cunim; 6th January 2014 at 04:24.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    If you had gotten shutter shake with your set of lenses my first reaction would have been there must be something wrong with the technical approach. I think the A7R is a wonderful tool and it delivers the goodies when used with the necessary care.
    It was in reaction to a claim that a M90 was not useable and to be avoided especially in portrait mode ... I just wanted to see if that was true. It wasn't. Or at least it isn't due to the camera or the lens.

    Anything from FF 22meg to 36meg requires necessary care. I'm used to it from shooting MFD for so long.

    Then there are situations where obsessive care and pixel peeping scrutiny just gets in the way of spontaneous content driven photography ... where NO ONE really cares if some detail in the far right corner is retina slicing sharp at 200% except those that overly analyze everything to death and beyond.

    Marc
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    OK, I admit it. I'm a hopeless peeper and will seek professional help.
    The best professional help is GAS.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I've just finished my own set of M lens tests with the a7r, Cube and heavy Gitzo. Shot in Manual mode at full aperture with Auto ISO. Basically, they confirm what others have said.

    21 mm Elmarit, 28 'Cron, 35 'Lux (pre FLE), 50 'Lux and 75 'Cron are all very sharp at all speeds - to my eyes when enlarged to 100% on screen. Interestingly, I also used C1's Focus Mask and though it still showed all shots as sharp, it showed less masking at 1/25 and longer, even though I couldn't see the difference. All the wide angles exhibited dark corners, easily cleaned up in C1.

    The 135 Apo-Telyt was also good to my eyes but the Focus Mask was definitely less clean at 1/50 and longer.

    The 21 mm and 28 mm showed lots of corner colour pollution so I used the LCC correction in C1. They cleaned up very nicely and the 21 mm shot is shown below.

    (I tried the Voigtlander 12 mm too but the size of the LCC plate required holding it too close to the camera so the results were not acceptable. I'll be trying again.)



    21 mm Elmarit at f2.8, focussed on the books. All settings C1 default. The walls are a blue/green, the ceiling is warm white. In the next few days I hope to share some real pictures!
    Bill
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    My conclusion, incidentally is that I will not hesitate to use any of these lenses on the a7r (subject to LCC for the wides) hand held, because I'd be using faster speeds anyway to avoid shake. The M glass is so sharp at wide apertures, the high ISO of the a7r so clean, what's not to like?

    The only thing I don't understand is why it's about as loud as my a900 which has an articulated mirror to raise as well as a shutter. Go figure.
    Bill CB

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Maybe it is my old eyes, but I have peered at lots of images that were supped to demonstrate shutter vibration blur.
    I just don't see it really.
    Shutter vibration blur usually has a directional component to it. Consider that the shutter is not bouncing around in all directions and there is no mirror slap to confuse.
    What I DO see from time to time is just old fashioned blur, of the sort that you might see in a lens that is not critically focused. I see more generally soft images than I would expect without a hint of directionality to the blur.
    Is it just my eyes or is there something with the focus that needs to be worked out?
    -bob
    You know, Bob, I started this thread and I really feel it has validity. So I tell you what..... you meet me, and anyone else who wants to join, and lets shoot and see .... and I don't mean in your back yard so I have to travel there..... OK?? I got the time and the interest and maybe then you will finally see or maybe I have the only faulty Sony camera.....

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    You know, Bob, I started this thread and I really feel it has validity. So I tell you what..... you meet me, and anyone else who wants to join, and lets shoot and see .... and I don't mean in your back yard so I have to travel there..... OK?? I got the time and the interest and maybe then you will finally see or maybe I have the only faulty Sony camera.....

    Victor
    Victor,
    I don't doubt you for a moment, it is just that as far as the raw files I have seen so far, they don't have that shutter vibration characteristic to them. It could be that it is multi-axis, or perhaps related to orientation, but is just looks a bit different from all the other examples I have looked at.
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Bob, just to show how minimal blur is with the FE55 here are 300% crops. There is no focus difference present.

    Look at the far left side of the label. There is a yellow bar, then a fine black line, then a broader yellow area. That fine black line is blurred a bit at 1/30. A profile across there shows a degradation of contrast (about 30%) in the black line. I do not see a directional component. On my monitor, moire is also a little bit more moire evident in the half second image, as you would expect.

    Before everyone dismisses me as a hopeless pixel peeper let me stress that I am not showing this as an example of blur that I fault Sony for. Again, this was done with lousy mounting, there has been no sharpening, and who cares about flaws only visible at high zooms anyway? I cannot tell the difference in blind comparisons at 100%, and that is my own test for whether the blur matters. The FE55 meets my criteria for a "keeper".

    OK, I admit it. I'm a hopeless peeper and will seek professional help.
    We should offer a 12 step program for that. I would be the first enrollee.
    -bob

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I hate testing. It knocks me out of the "zone." It crushes all creativity.

    I am now waiting for my third copy of the 35 FE trying to get one that is right. This has never happened to me with any lens before in 30 years of photography or maybe I was too inept to notice... As for shutter shake, I believe it was Michael Reichmann that said something to the effect of "work around it."To some that may seem flippant, to others that is the common sense solution to a problem that requires searching to reveal.

    I had a minor issue with focus accuracy on my M9 which sucked the joy and creativity out of that while I was getting it sorted out also.

    I have a better appreciation for my Canon 5D3 on which everything just always seems to work, even if I am using a sensor and technology that makes the most fastidious gear reviewers sneer in disgust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Can't say I enjoy testing at all, it's a necessary evil. Once it's out the way then hopefully I can set about allowing the camera to become an extension of my mind. That's the idea at any rate. I get really frustrated going through the testing time, especially when it takes often years to get a problem worked out. It took a couple of years to get all the AF niggles sorted out on my 5D's before it was working properly and I could just allow it to to what I'm telling it to do. Far more frustrating though as a pro, tools have to work or you don't eat. Now with this camera I have the luxury to take my time.
    Last edited by fmueller; 12th January 2014 at 06:37.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Gee Bob, I was really ready for a Las Vegas shutter vibration party. Maybe next time......

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Gee Bob, I was really ready for a Las Vegas shutter vibration party. Maybe next time......

    Victor
    EVERYTHING vibrates there
    -bob
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    Re: Shutter Vibration


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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Vibrate yes, but no more shaking!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    My conclusion, incidentally is that I will not hesitate to use any of these lenses on the a7r (subject to LCC for the wides) hand held, because I'd be using faster speeds anyway to avoid shake. The M glass is so sharp at wide apertures, the high ISO of the a7r so clean, what's not to like?

    The only thing I don't understand is why it's about as loud as my a900 which has an articulated mirror to raise as well as a shutter. Go figure.

    Bill

    You did not mention the M-E adapter you used. Thanks.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    It is the Metabones. It is a VERY tight fit. I'll probably get the Novoflex when B&H has them in stock, and I'll relegate the Metabones to duty with my odd screw mount lens. (I have a screw to M bayonet adapter already).

    The Metabones does focus to infinity but I feel the fit is too tight - I feel like I'm arm wrestling to change lenses!

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Bill,

    Just because it has the Novoflex name doesn't mean it can't be faulty. I purchased a Novoflex Nikon F to E mount that was faulty. My Voightlander VM adapter is as good as it gets..... you should consider one and save a couple of bucks.

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Bill,

    Just because it has the Novoflex name doesn't mean it can't be faulty. I purchased a Novoflex Nikon F to E mount that was faulty. My Voightlander VM adapter is as good as it gets..... you should consider one and save a couple of bucks.

    Victor

    Very pleased with my Voigtlander adapter for A7r. I have a novoflex for mft and outward fit and finish between the two are indistinguishable.

    Fred

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Good advice, thank you. I'll troll through B&H to see if I can find one. I have a Voigtlander 12 mm Heliar and some other accessories and am very pleased with them. Their 21 mm accessory VF for Leica is much better than Leica's.

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