PeterA
Well-known member
That is an odd analogy - you need to expand so the conversation can continue!
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Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th
- Thread starter ptomsu
- Start date
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Someone compared the price of the GFX 50R with that of the rumoured price of the S1R. I find the comparison as relevant as that between a Porsche and a truck because:
- The Fuji excels in one area: delivering medium format stills quality in a physically moderate format and for a reasonable price.
- The Panasonic will be much faster, have much better video quality and have ergonomics that is more suitable for a wider range of applications. It will also feature IBIS and dual IS. What else it will offer remains to be seen.
They are cameras aimed at totally different user groups, and although I try to be flexible when it comes to what cameras to compare, these two don't pass the test. Time will show how the Panasonic compares to the Z7 and the A7R III, but if the price rumours hold water, Panasonic must have something up the sleeve to make this a viable option. My experience with Panasonic makes me confident that this might actually be value for money, even if the price is high.
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PeterA
Well-known member
Well then your anaology is fair enough given the context. I often scratch my head at people's predisposition to compare unlike with unlike .
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
There's another side to pricing also:
Like many, not least many members of this forum, I've been changing cameras rather often the last 10 years, and it doesn't make sense. I'm aiming towards keeping my cameras for much longer in the future, and my two GX8 bodies, both bought cheaply second hand, are my first steps in that direction. However, the longer I keep my cameras, the less important price becomes. If I buy a state-of-the-art camera that costs $4,500 and keeps it for ten years, it's relatively good value. It won't be SOTA in ten years of course, but like my D2Xs which is well over 10 years old, it will still be good for many uses. I can live with a cost of $1.23 per day for a good camera body.
So if I buy an S1 or S1R, it will be for long term use, but most likely, I'll wait until they're available second hand. Having somebody else pay a third of my camera makes me feel soooo good.
PeterA
Well-known member
Peopel like talkinhg camera gear - more than photographs.There's another side to pricing also:
Like many, not least many members of this forum, I've been changing cameras rather often the last 10 years, and it doesn't make sense. I'm aiming towards keeping my cameras for much longer in the future, and my two GX8 bodies, both bought cheaply second hand, are my first steps in that direction. However, the longer I keep my cameras, the less important price becomes. If I buy a state-of-the-art camera that costs $4,500 and keeps it for ten years, it's relatively good value. It won't be SOTA in ten years of course, but like my D2Xs which is well over 10 years old, it will still be good for many uses. I can live with a cost of $1.23 per day for a good camera body.
So if I buy an S1 or S1R, it will be for long term use, but most likely, I'll wait until they're available second hand. Having somebody else pay a third of my camera makes me feel soooo good.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
If we do these comparisons, we need to consider also the Olympus EM1X that will be announced soon. The rumoured price shall be around $3000.- and if the rumoured video features are somehow true, this camera will give every Panasonic without 8K a run for the money - 4k 60fps internal and 4k 120 fps external. And for sure cinema 4K and new 7 stop IBIS and dual IBIS with selected PRO lenses. I wonder what the S1R will be able to better in that area. Yea it will be FF but hey - who cares? I think that for somehow mobile videography m43 has lot of advantages compared to FF as it is much lighter and easier to handle.
Anyway I most definitely will NOT buy into such an expensive FF ecosystem - but who knows what comes :toocool:
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Maybe but the takeaway is that we haven’t heard ANYTHING from Sony besides the announcement of at least 12 new lenses, ongoing development of the A7SIII, and rumors of a high-end crop body. There may still be higher end A9S/R variants too plus we may see that $3500 A9 price become permanent which would mean everyone would likely need to drop the prices of their FF cameras due to pressure from sony and Fuji GFX cameras. The 50S quietly got a $1000 price cut too but they e been available from Greentoe (body only) for ~$5200 for awhile now without a sale.
Unfortunately, as good as the Panasonic will likely be $4500 will limit the commercial success of the camera... and it’s not like we are in a proof of concept environment that Sony was in 5 years ago in testing the Mirrorless FF Waters. The S1 REALLY needs to be in the $1800-2500 range and the S1R needs to be in the $2500-3500 range to chip away seriously into the market because that’s where the direct competition is. I do believe the ~$4000 price may be accurate because Panasonic did mention in interviews they were missing a product between the GH and EVA lines with a $4-5000 price gap between them.
I want Panasonic to have success (because they like Fuji and Sony are currently the most innovative camera manufacturers IMO) but they are shooting themselves in the foot if this turns out to be accurate info.
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V
Vivek
Guest
This is pretty much DOA, IMO.
..or may be DBA?
..or may be DBA?
iiiNelson
Well-known member
This may indeed price to be true unless the intention is to remain a niche for users of their Micro 4/3 cameras that want a bigger sensor option.
faberryman
Member
You mean pay $1000 extra just to remain within brand?
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Stranger things have happened.
There are people totally convinced they should remain with the same brand as their DSLR to use their existing lenses which they will eventually trade out of/sell in a year or two when the native Mirrorless version is released - assuming the market won’t be overly saturated with DSLR lenses (with a lower market demand) that camera stores/private sells make them take an even bigger hit on down the line AND assuming the apples to apples pricing will be linear. Watched people complain for a few years about the higher prices for lenses designed to be able to resolve the high density sensors... what are the new Canon, Panasonic, and Nikon equivalents going to cost? We see the price of the 28-70/2 is $3k and the 50/1.2 is $2300... the 58/0.95 manual is rumored to be around $6k... can we assume the 70-200 in Z mount may be upwards of $3k+ being that the newest F-Mount 70-200 goes for $2800 without discount?
People aren’t always rational when they want something and all GAS is driven by the idea that photographers want to take the variable that the gear can be/is the cause for “failure.” People pay lots to remove that variable.
P.S. This isn’t a knock on anyone’s camera choices - just pointing out that rational thought isn’t the only factor that goes into the buying decision. There’s a host or personal/subjective/organic decisions that are mixed into the buying process.
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k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Tre, by comparison I find the GFX lenses with their current discounts not inexpensive but pretty reasonable. Amazing for the IQ they produce on the 50S.. :grin:
iiiNelson
Well-known member
I agree.
V
Vivek
Guest
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Technically, Panasonic is a conglomerate that makes TV’s, cameras, kitchen electronics, vehicles, batteries, etc.
I’m told by some people that brand loyalty does matters because no one else can give the end user the same (or better) experience... or something of that sort. Either way I want to see Panasonic have some success. I’ve always liked their cameras BUT I won’t consider it at the rumored price no matter how many boxes it checks from what was shown.
pegelli
Well-known member
Nothing :lecture:
But the issue is in my mind price vs. performance and not what other products the do or don't make.
And both of those parameters are still in rumour/gossip territory, so I think drawing any firm conclusions at this moment is pretty meaningless.
PeterA
Well-known member
Gents, all we are seeing is classic competitive economics in play throughout camera and lens land. Chips are now entering a more mature technical phase which means both cost of production AND ability for companies to truly differentiate on performance basis - diminishes significantly. It is no surprise to see companies attempting to position themselves so that their asking price for cameras and lenses are broadly similar- because the costs of production/distribution and marketing are broadly similar.
For these reasons companies are forced to move to the most 'sensible' broadly appealing product designs they can design around the commodified chip and processor designs they all share in one way or another. Panasonic/Sigma and Leica are sharing the L mount technology and just like the original idea behind standardising lens mounts and electronics across 4/3rds cameras previously - this will meet with some success at the margin and reduce costs significantly in a crowded market.
It is pretty obvious that the battle ground for differentiation has been more about dual purpose capability in terms of video and increasingly buyers have used video quality tech specs to use just as much as stills capability in making brand choices. Percieved benefits from so called full frame 35mm chips is forcing everyone to consider playing in that space - making competitive dynnamics even more difficult.
So at the end of the day if someone has invested in a set of lenses - it is natural for them to 'stick' with their brand of choice because this represents a barrier to exit. There is no discernible difference in performance between any of these cameras really as far as stills shooting goes - they all provide ample room for any photographer to make great images.
I dont think there is a bad decision to be made in purchasing - my major filter these days is the likelihood of a company actually surviving more than technical spec differentials at the margin - so I evaluate price/cost to performance through this filter.
Personally, I'm looking forward to what Panasonic will announce - because it will form a benchmark against which the next iteration of Leica SL will have to beat - and I already know that the 100MP Fuji is my next body. More and more my camera decision is now reduced to which small lightweight camera and which bigger high megapixel camera to cover all shooting requirements.
For these reasons companies are forced to move to the most 'sensible' broadly appealing product designs they can design around the commodified chip and processor designs they all share in one way or another. Panasonic/Sigma and Leica are sharing the L mount technology and just like the original idea behind standardising lens mounts and electronics across 4/3rds cameras previously - this will meet with some success at the margin and reduce costs significantly in a crowded market.
It is pretty obvious that the battle ground for differentiation has been more about dual purpose capability in terms of video and increasingly buyers have used video quality tech specs to use just as much as stills capability in making brand choices. Percieved benefits from so called full frame 35mm chips is forcing everyone to consider playing in that space - making competitive dynnamics even more difficult.
So at the end of the day if someone has invested in a set of lenses - it is natural for them to 'stick' with their brand of choice because this represents a barrier to exit. There is no discernible difference in performance between any of these cameras really as far as stills shooting goes - they all provide ample room for any photographer to make great images.
I dont think there is a bad decision to be made in purchasing - my major filter these days is the likelihood of a company actually surviving more than technical spec differentials at the margin - so I evaluate price/cost to performance through this filter.
Personally, I'm looking forward to what Panasonic will announce - because it will form a benchmark against which the next iteration of Leica SL will have to beat - and I already know that the 100MP Fuji is my next body. More and more my camera decision is now reduced to which small lightweight camera and which bigger high megapixel camera to cover all shooting requirements.
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Interesting take from a Panasonic interview. Seems like Panasonic and Olympus weren’t seeing eye to eye on some things.
https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-...le-with-olympus-we-were-just-living-together/
https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-...le-with-olympus-we-were-just-living-together/
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
You are joking, right? Panasonic is actually a larger company than Sony, and just as diversified, only in different areas. When it comes to professional video, Panasonic is one of the market leaders, hi-end hi-fi likewise. Remember Technics?
https://www.technics.com/global/
When it comes to my personal reasons for sticking with Panasonic, ergonomics is one, video quality and features is another. AF is sadly not one, although video AF has worked fine for me since the GH3, but that was when Panasonic was the only one delivering workable video AF.
If I should choose between the best ergonomics and the best image quality in today's market, the ergonomics would win every time. Still image quality and lenses are so good from all manufacturers now that they will rarely be deciding factors for the success of an image. Ergonomics on the other hand can be the difference between getting or not getting an image, and it's not only about the quality of the ergonomics, but staying with something I know vs. trying to learn something new. If I have to think to change a certain setting, the moment may be gone. Even in today's competitive market, one image can easilly be worth a price difference of $1,000 between two cameras.
I don't even know yet if I'll get the full frame Panasonic, or another full frame camera for that matter, but if the rumours of a 150MP hi-res mode are true, that would be very interesting for my industrial, product and food photography, areas where I actually make money from taking pictures.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
"It seems unlikely that Panasonic's upcoming Lumix S1 and S1R will be cheap, but it's a safe bet that in terms of price per line of spec, they'll be a hell of a lot more reasonably priced than anything Leica will come out with in the near future. It's anyone's guess what Canon and Nikon will do next with their new RF and Z mounts, but for now it looks like the S1R could be the most 'pro' of all the new crop of full-frame mirrorless cameras when it becomes available next spring. It could, in fact end up being one of the most compelling options in the entire full-frame space."
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...ica-sigma-and-panasonic-talk-l-mount-alliance
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...ica-sigma-and-panasonic-talk-l-mount-alliance