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Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

V

Vivek

Guest
You are joking, right?.

Not quite! I still have not forgotten how they sneakily disabled 3rd party batteries for G1 via a FW update. Keep changing batteries for every iteration of camera and such. They are quite focused on selling their batteries, for sure.

It will be interesting to see how much a SR1/SR1R battery costs. :)
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Not quite! I still have not forgotten how they sneakily disabled 3rd party batteries for G1 via a FW update. Keep changing batteries for every iteration of camera and such. They are quite focused on selling their batteries, for sure.

It will be interesting to see how much a SR1/SR1R battery costs. :)
Since it's a battery company, they will probably be powered by eneloop AA cells. Works fine with my Fuji S3 :ROTFL:
 

retow

Member
The market will take care of specs, price, UI, ergonomics and weed out obviously inferior products. However, when it comes to polycarbonate housed electronics wrapped around a state of the art Bayer AAF free FF sensor all I am really concerned about is how that thing works with my lenses of choice. And since I still have a stable of m-mount lenses, a FF Panasonic-Leica developed light box might be on my buy list.
 

biglouis

Well-known member
Just sayin' but I'm waiting to see what Sigma do as part of the group of 'L'.

Full frame Foveon, anyone?

LouisB
 

pegelli

Well-known member
So at the end of the day if someone has invested in a set of lenses - it is natural for them to 'stick' with their brand of choice because this represents a barrier to exit. There is no discernible difference in performance between any of these cameras really as far as stills shooting goes - they all provide ample room for any photographer to make great images.
I think this is spot on, and you have actually described my personal strategy in this matter.

I dont think there is a bad decision to be made in purchasing - my major filter these days is the likelihood of a company actually surviving more than technical spec differentials at the margin - so I evaluate price/cost to performance through this filter.
This makes a lot of sense to me as well, but to use such a filter effectively I think you need to look 5-10 years ahead. Big question for me would be how you do that?
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I think this is spot on, and you have actually described my personal strategy in this matter.

This makes a lot of sense to me as well, but to use such a filter effectively I think you need to look 5-10 years ahead. Big question for me would be how you do that?
Seriously 5-10 years most manufacturerss operating today will still be around - more importantly is what if any formats they stay in or drop.....I think Leica M Cl/Sl versions will still be around and I think Fuji in APC and super full frame will be too...not as sure abotu Hasselblador even Phase One tbh - I've had my share of disaster in Sinar...never again.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I am not concerned about Sony, Canon, even Nikon after their latest move into Z-mount.

I think Leica will be around - at least as long as the Kaufmann family keeps majority stock of that company, not sure what would happen if that majority stock gets into other hands, maybe some investor groups again - we have been through that and I really hope this will not happen again. But it will become harder for that exclusive expensive product philosophy to survive I guess.

Brings me to the L-mount alliance and if the partners play it right this might get successful. Although I have my doubts if the rumoured price of the Panasonic S1R comes true. Sigma and a FF Foveon - man I have heard that so often throughout the last decade and even if it happens I doubt this sensor will be supported by any/many RAW converters except from Sigma - so I am VERY sceptical here.

Panasonic, if they place their products right might have success, but I almost guarantee if that market share they expect does not happen they are out of that alliance in a heartbeat - maybe takes several years but we have seen such things happen before.

m43 is a different story as obviously that m43 partnership between Panasonic and Olympus is not really the best to say politely. I think Panasonic will continue with m43, as there will be enough demand from people looking for smaller systems, maybe also systems that are not so much top professional.

That brings me to Olympus and I must say I am really concerned (as an Olympus m43 shooter) that they will be able to survive. They obviously have VERY limited development budget - look at what they brought to market last year, their innovation cycles are far too long. Their new flagship m43 camera seems to be a bit weird to me at a estimated price of $3000.- Also it is mainly designed for speed that implies a lot of sports and wildlife shooters should switch to that camera to be able to deliver better results as they already can get from the systems they shoot today. Will that really happen? Will enough of these photographers be willing to skip their current system(s) in order to get this super camera with new PRO lenses? And will this camera be as good in the end of the day and for what time span? I seriously doubt - unfortunately.

One thing I am sure is that the whole photography landscape will change drastically during the next decade or so and maybe we will see a few mergers or some of todays players will no longer be around. Not to forget the ever shrinking camera market (DSLR and mirrorless) as smartphones will only get much better and lot of photographers (dinosaurs) like me will disappear from the photographic and buying surface during the next 2 or 3 decades. So what will remain? At least it will be interesting to observe :toocool:
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I am not concerned about Sony, Canon, even Nikon after their latest move into Z-mount.

I think Leica will be around - at least as long as the Kaufmann family keeps majority stock of that company, not sure what would happen if that majority stock gets into other hands, maybe some investor groups again - we have been through that and I really hope this will not happen again. But it will become harder for that exclusive expensive product philosophy to survive I guess.

Brings me to the L-mount alliance and if the partners play it right this might get successful. Although I have my doubts if the rumoured price of the Panasonic S1R comes true. Sigma and a FF Foveon - man I have heard that so often throughout the last decade and even if it happens I doubt this sensor will be supported by any/many RAW converters except from Sigma - so I am VERY sceptical here.

Panasonic, if they place their products right might have success, but I almost guarantee if that market share they expect does not happen they are out of that alliance in a heartbeat - maybe takes several years but we have seen such things happen before.

m43 is a different story as obviously that m43 partnership between Panasonic and Olympus is not really the best to say politely. I think Panasonic will continue with m43, as there will be enough demand from people looking for smaller systems, maybe also systems that are not so much top professional.

That brings me to Olympus and I must say I am really concerned (as an Olympus m43 shooter) that they will be able to survive. They obviously have VERY limited development budget - look at what they brought to market last year, their innovation cycles are far too long. Their new flagship m43 camera seems to be a bit weird to me at a estimated price of $3000.- Also it is mainly designed for speed that implies a lot of sports and wildlife shooters should switch to that camera to be able to deliver better results as they already can get from the systems they shoot today. Will that really happen? Will enough of these photographers be willing to skip their current system(s) in order to get this super camera with new PRO lenses? And will this camera be as good in the end of the day and for what time span? I seriously doubt - unfortunately.

One thing I am sure is that the whole photography landscape will change drastically during the next decade or so and maybe we will see a few mergers or some of todays players will no longer be around. Not to forget the ever shrinking camera market (DSLR and mirrorless) as smartphones will only get much better and lot of photographers (dinosaurs) like me will disappear from the photographic and buying surface during the next 2 or 3 decades. So what will remain? At least it will be interesting to observe :toocool:
You make a lot of interesting points Peter - probably the most interesting is similar to Jurgen above - my ultimate filter is dividing the cost of something I but for photography by teh number of estimated days I have remaining and seeing if the daily/weekly/monthly yearly cost of carry is something that i peercieve to give me value....I think many of us are on teh same page with this line of thinking...

Pete
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I am not concerned about Sony, Canon, even Nikon after their latest move into Z-mount.

I think Leica will be around - at least as long as the Kaufmann family keeps majority stock of that company, not sure what would happen if that majority stock gets into other hands, maybe some investor groups again - we have been through that and I really hope this will not happen again. But it will become harder for that exclusive expensive product philosophy to survive I guess.

Brings me to the L-mount alliance and if the partners play it right this might get successful. Although I have my doubts if the rumoured price of the Panasonic S1R comes true. Sigma and a FF Foveon - man I have heard that so often throughout the last decade and even if it happens I doubt this sensor will be supported by any/many RAW converters except from Sigma - so I am VERY sceptical here.

Panasonic, if they place their products right might have success, but I almost guarantee if that market share they expect does not happen they are out of that alliance in a heartbeat - maybe takes several years but we have seen such things happen before.

m43 is a different story as obviously that m43 partnership between Panasonic and Olympus is not really the best to say politely. I think Panasonic will continue with m43, as there will be enough demand from people looking for smaller systems, maybe also systems that are not so much top professional.

That brings me to Olympus and I must say I am really concerned (as an Olympus m43 shooter) that they will be able to survive. They obviously have VERY limited development budget - look at what they brought to market last year, their innovation cycles are far too long. Their new flagship m43 camera seems to be a bit weird to me at a estimated price of $3000.- Also it is mainly designed for speed that implies a lot of sports and wildlife shooters should switch to that camera to be able to deliver better results as they already can get from the systems they shoot today. Will that really happen? Will enough of these photographers be willing to skip their current system(s) in order to get this super camera with new PRO lenses? And will this camera be as good in the end of the day and for what time span? I seriously doubt - unfortunately.

One thing I am sure is that the whole photography landscape will change drastically during the next decade or so and maybe we will see a few mergers or some of todays players will no longer be around. Not to forget the ever shrinking camera market (DSLR and mirrorless) as smartphones will only get much better and lot of photographers (dinosaurs) like me will disappear from the photographic and buying surface during the next 2 or 3 decades. So what will remain? At least it will be interesting to observe :toocool:
If thebrumors of Olympus pricing are true AND if the Panasonic/Olympus speculation is true - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Olympus either get absorbed by one of the bigger 3 brands (Canon/Nikon/Sony) or just gonaway altogether. I can see a Sony buying them exclusively for patent ownership but if you recall Olympus was in dire financial turmoil about 5 years ago and that was before all the additional competition. I also agree about Hasselblad and Phase One though I do believe that Phase One partnering with a Sony for a Mirrorless Medium Format system would help (along with substantial price cuts to their hardware) and also focusing more on Capture One becoming a fully featured Software Suite if they worked with a company like Serif to provide a Photoshop alternative bundled with a Capture One. Panasonic is in a series place where maybe they can do a really good thing but most don’t think of cameras (no matter how good they are) when you mention Panasonic.
 

Gate

New member
If thebrumors of Olympus pricing are true AND if the Panasonic/Olympus speculation is true - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Olympus either get absorbed by one of the bigger 3 brands (Canon/Nikon/Sony) or just gonaway altogether. I can see a Sony buying them exclusively for patent ownership but if you recall Olympus was in dire financial turmoil about 5 years ago and that was before all the additional competition. I also agree about Hasselblad and Phase One though I do believe that Phase One partnering with a Sony for a Mirrorless Medium Format system would help (along with substantial price cuts to their hardware) and also focusing more on Capture One becoming a fully featured Software Suite if they worked with a company like Serif to provide a Photoshop alternative bundled with a Capture One. Panasonic is in a series place where maybe they can do a really good thing but most don’t think of cameras (no matter how good they are) when you mention Panasonic.
Sony owns already 20% share of Olympus if my memory is good. So, it is to be excluded that another camera manufacturer take control of this company. On the other hand, in my opinion, it is very propitious that Panasonic buys Leica in the near future. I have been looking at this for a few years now. This would explain why Panasonic is embarking on the manufacture of 24X36 camera, to ensure a future to the lenses of the brand. They will not have to worry about the manufacture of the brand's picture boxes. The lenses already have a very solid reputation.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Sony owns already 20% share of Olympus if my memory is good. So, it is to be excluded that another camera manufacturer take control of this company. On the other hand, in my opinion, it is very propitious that Panasonic buys Leica in the near future. I have been looking at this for a few years now. This would explain why Panasonic is embarking on the manufacture of 24X36 camera, to ensure a future to the lenses of the brand. They will not have to worry about the manufacture of the brand's picture boxes. The lenses already have a very solid reputation.
I don't know that they still own the 20% of Olympus or if that was a cash infusion type deal similar to what the Japanese Government proposed to Fuji to "potentially save" Nikon a couple of years ago. Lots of companies do short-term investments and sell to receive their ROI once in a better place. In either case, Olympus seems like they may be on something of an island right now and not necessarily for the best of reasons.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I don't know that they still own the 20% of Olympus or if that was a cash infusion type deal similar to what the Japanese Government proposed to Fuji to "potentially save" Nikon a couple of years ago. Lots of companies do short-term investments and sell to receive their ROI once in a better place. In either case, Olympus seems like they may be on something of an island right now and not necessarily for the best of reasons.
I think Sony sold most but not all of the Olympus shares. If my memory is correct, they kept around 5%.

Panasonic buying Leica would be interesting, and a bit like Yamaha's ownership of Bösendorfer. On the other hand, both of them seem to be happy with the current state of cooperation, so maybe nothing happens.
 
Panasonic is reported as saying in an interview with respect to its participation in the L-mount alliance:

“This alliance is like marriage. The previous arrangement [with Olympus] was more like we were just living together. So the obligation [now] is a little more high-level.”

With their use of the past tense, does that sound like they are getting out of m43, or was it just poorly worded? I can't remember if they said at Photokina that they were fully committed to m43.
 

Gate

New member
Panasonic is reported as saying in an interview with respect to its participation in the L-mount alliance:

“This alliance is like marriage. The previous arrangement [with Olympus] was more like we were just living together. So the obligation [now] is a little more high-level.”
Precisely, a marriage is a union where the spouses are one. Could this be a subtle way of setting the stage for what is coming?
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Panasonic is reported as saying in an interview with respect to its participation in the L-mount alliance:

“This alliance is like marriage. The previous arrangement [with Olympus] was more like we were just living together. So the obligation [now] is a little more high-level.”

With their use of the past tense, does that sound like they are getting out of m43, or was it just poorly worded? I can't remember if they said at Photokina that they were fully committed to m43.
The official words from Panasonic were that m43 will stay one of their main interests - besides FF.

Pana and Olympus cooperation in m43 was always a bit tricky - think about aperture rings on some Panasonic lenses that were NEVER supported when using Olympus cameras and there are more examples.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Precisely, a marriage is a union where the spouses are one. Could this be a subtle way of setting the stage for what is coming?
Depending on how one likes to read that, this could become true.

Actually I am not sure what would happen if/when Panasonic took over Leica. I doubt that any Japanese company could have the real potential to follow the footsteps of Dr. Kaufmann - shall mean that I think in the case that would happen a lot of changes would come.

We have some (many) examples in photographic history how such a takeover finally did not work - one of the most prominent coming to my mind was when Kyocera took over Contax. Finally after some promising and excellent products (I think of Contax RTS cameras, especially the RTSIII which I owned 3 times and sold 3 times and the Contax 645 MF system) suddenly the shut down the complete production and development and even already produced cameras and lenses had to be destroyed. I remember this as some very sad event some 15 years ago (plus/minus).

I do hope that the future of Leica will look better long term - but hey, this might only happen in far future, so why bother today.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Depending on how one likes to read that, this could become true.

Actually I am not sure what would happen if/when Panasonic took over Leica. I doubt that any Japanese company could have the real potential to follow the footsteps of Dr. Kaufmann - shall mean that I think in the case that would happen a lot of changes would come.

We have some (many) examples in photographic history how such a takeover finally did not work - one of the most prominent coming to my mind was when Kyocera took over Contax. Finally after some promising and excellent products (I think of Contax RTS cameras, especially the RTSIII which I owned 3 times and sold 3 times and the Contax 645 MF system) suddenly the shut down the complete production and development and even already produced cameras and lenses had to be destroyed. I remember this as some very sad event some 15 years ago (plus/minus).

I do hope that the future of Leica will look better long term - but hey, this might only happen in far future, so why bother today.
I wouldn't compare Panasonic to Kyocera. Kyocera was a ceramics company established in 1959 that bought its way into electronics in 1979 and bought Yashica in 1983 to enter the camera industry. Yashica already had a licensing agreement with Zeiss. It's worth noticing that they closed down their camera production around the same time as Sony, who also had a licensing agreement with Zeiss, entered the DSLR business with the acquisition of Konica Minolta's camera division. My guess is that they didn't find it wortwhile trying to compete with the Sony behemoth in a field where Sony would have much more competence and probably also more money to invest. The Zeiss lenses was the key to success in the camera market for Kyocera, and sharing that key with Sony probably wasn't too attractive and option.

Panasonic on the other hand launched their first radio in 1931, their first TV in 1953 and their first camcorder in 1985. They have been working closely with Leica for 15 years and are clearly profiled as a sound and imaging company, although that is only part of what they do. However, that doesn't necessarilly mean that they aim to take over Leica, although that is exactly what they did with Sanyo, a related company that was also a competitor (Sanyo was started as a subcontractor to Panasonic by Panasonic founder Kōnosuke Matsushita's brother-in-law Toshio Iuen after WWII and acquired by Panasonic in 2009).

Should it still happen some time in the future, I think Panasonic would be a more or less ideal owner for Leica. They share technologies both ways, and they are two dedicated companies based in two nations that both have very long traditions within innovation, optics and electronics.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Depending on how one likes to read that, this could become true.

Actually I am not sure what would happen if/when Panasonic took over Leica. I doubt that any Japanese company could have the real potential to follow the footsteps of Dr. Kaufmann - shall mean that I think in the case that would happen a lot of changes would come.

We have some (many) examples in photographic history how such a takeover finally did not work - one of the most prominent coming to my mind was when Kyocera took over Contax. Finally after some promising and excellent products (I think of Contax RTS cameras, especially the RTSIII which I owned 3 times and sold 3 times and the Contax 645 MF system) suddenly the shut down the complete production and development and even already produced cameras and lenses had to be destroyed. I remember this as some very sad event some 15 years ago (plus/minus).

I do hope that the future of Leica will look better long term - but hey, this might only happen in far future, so why bother today.
The Contax Yashira lenses are still great though and were the basis for the optical formula used in the Zeiss Master Primes... perhaps the CP.3 cinema lenses are different but the 85/1.4, 100/2, 180/2.8 (along with the 28/2. “Hollywood” and 55/1.2) are truly special lenses.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I wouldn't compare Panasonic to Kyocera. Kyocera was a ceramics company established in 1959 that bought its way into electronics in 1979 and bought Yashica in 1983 to enter the camera industry. Yashica already had a licensing agreement with Zeiss. It's worth noticing that they closed down their camera production around the same time as Sony, who also had a licensing agreement with Zeiss, entered the DSLR business with the acquisition of Konica Minolta's camera division. My guess is that they didn't find it wortwhile trying to compete with the Sony behemoth in a field where Sony would have much more competence and probably also more money to invest. The Zeiss lenses was the key to success in the camera market for Kyocera, and sharing that key with Sony probably wasn't too attractive and option.

Panasonic on the other hand launched their first radio in 1931, their first TV in 1953 and their first camcorder in 1985. They have been working closely with Leica for 15 years and are clearly profiled as a sound and imaging company, although that is only part of what they do. However, that doesn't necessarilly mean that they aim to take over Leica, although that is exactly what they did with Sanyo, a related company that was also a competitor (Sanyo was started as a subcontractor to Panasonic by Panasonic founder Kōnosuke Matsushita's brother-in-law Toshio Iuen after WWII and acquired by Panasonic in 2009).

Should it still happen some time in the future, I think Panasonic would be a more or less ideal owner for Leica. They share technologies both ways, and they are two dedicated companies based in two nations that both have very long traditions within innovation, optics and electronics.
Japanese companies are best running Japanese Companies- they are not very good at running non Japanese companies - also the day that Leica gets taken over by a Japanese/Chinese or American Company - is the day its premium gets thrown out the window and into the nearest garbage bin.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The Contax Yashira lenses are still great though and were the basis for the optical formula used in the Zeiss Master Primes... perhaps the CP.3 cinema lenses are different but the 85/1.4, 100/2, 180/2.8 (along with the 28/2. “Hollywood” and 55/1.2) are truly special lenses.
Not to forget the 1.2/85 for the Contay RTS mount :thumbs:

I owned that lens and it was out of another world in all disciplines!
 
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