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ptomsu
5th October 2019, 23:57
Itís nice to hear user experiences and I was considering getting the Panasonicís to replace my Sony kit... but with all of the AF disclaimers Iíve rethought it. I do believe that DFD will get to the point where it doesnít matter if a person uses DFD or a hybrid PDAF system once the processing power significantly increases. At that point I will strongly consider the Panasonic... especially if Sony refuses to offer a larger body style. I seemingly love EVERYTHING about the IQ coming from the LUMIX S (mainly the way the color reproduction fidelity holds even in high ISO shots and access to the Leica APO-Summicron lenses to go alongside the Panasonic zooms) and I can see the pairing of a S1R and S1H being a perfect kit for me quite possibly.

I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures :thumbup:

WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking :cool:

And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!

iiiNelson
6th October 2019, 03:50
I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures :thumbup:

WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking :cool:

And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!

Fair enough, but I'm just coming from relevant personal experience of having to work with the Sony FE series for years now specifically with their pro G-Master zooms. I don't have an issue with the primes personally though I have no use for the 400/2.8 or 600/4. I've tried the 400/28 (it was PM-R's personal copy) and it was amazing but I'm not buying one. If the 200-600 was a constant aperture then I would have purchased it this summer when I got to test one out in July... even still it's a great lens that is internal focusing and zooming if I remember correctly. I think the one caveat in the Sony system that may seal the deal with me staying put is that Tamron (interestingly enough) may have solved my biggest issue with their f/2.8 offerings. As such I've purchased the 17-28/2.8 and 28-75/2.8. I'm also planning on putting my name on the list for the 70-180/2.8 the day it's available in hopes that they'll balance well enough on the existing Sony bodies. If so then there's little reason for me to switch for incremental IQ differences and potential quality of life improvements. I already have a great collection of Sony FE lenses but I find the weight difference negligible between the A7RII and the Lumix S for the reason that I feel like the Sony pretty much requires people with larger hands to use the grip. When you factor that in then the weight difference is a matter of a few ounces and the volume of size is more or less about the same. With the f/1.8, f/2, some f/1.4 primes or the manual focusing Zeiss/Voigtlanders then the grip may not be needed as one could probably get by with the grip extender as most.

I agree that Sony has the most tech innovations and it still the most cutting edge system for most purposes but I wouldn't discount what Panasonic (and other makers like Fuji) are doing. We will just have to agree to disagree on the future of DFD. I see it right now as being limited in effectiveness by processing power but as that advances there's no reason why the performance can't significantly improve in continuous AF IMO. The single point AF seems to be fine and is as fast as the best of the PDAF cameras not named A9, 1Dx, or D5. It's only the continuous that suffers ( which coincidently I've grown to love in Sony cameras for their accuracy and speed).

ptomsu
6th October 2019, 10:03
Fair enough, but I'm just coming from relevant personal experience of having to work with the Sony FE series for years now specifically with their pro G-Master zooms. I don't have an issue with the primes personally though I have no use for the 400/2.8 or 600/4. I've tried the 400/28 (it was PM-R's personal copy) and it was amazing but I'm not buying one. If the 200-600 was a constant aperture then I would have purchased it this summer when I got to test one out in July... even still it's a great lens that is internal focusing and zooming if I remember correctly. I think the one caveat in the Sony system that may seal the deal with me staying put is that Tamron (interestingly enough) may have solved my biggest issue with their f/2.8 offerings. As such I've purchased the 17-28/2.8 and 28-75/2.8. I'm also planning on putting my name on the list for the 70-180/2.8 the day it's available in hopes that they'll balance well enough on the existing Sony bodies. If so then there's little reason for me to switch for incremental IQ differences and potential quality of life improvements. I already have a great collection of Sony FE lenses but I find the weight difference negligible between the A7RII and the Lumix S for the reason that I feel like the Sony pretty much requires people with larger hands to use the grip. When you factor that in then the weight difference is a matter of a few ounces and the volume of size is more or less about the same. With the f/1.8, f/2, some f/1.4 primes or the manual focusing Zeiss/Voigtlanders then the grip may not be needed as one could probably get by with the grip extender as most.

I agree that Sony has the most tech innovations and it still the most cutting edge system for most purposes but I wouldn't discount what Panasonic (and other makers like Fuji) are doing. We will just have to agree to disagree on the future of DFD. I see it right now as being limited in effectiveness by processing power but as that advances there's no reason why the performance can't significantly improve in continuous AF IMO. The single point AF seems to be fine and is as fast as the best of the PDAF cameras not named A9, 1Dx, or D5. It's only the continuous that suffers ( which coincidently I've grown to love in Sony cameras for their accuracy and speed).


While I can agree to all what you say, I completely disagree WRT DFD. IMO this will never become as good as PDAF/CDAF systems, even with faster and more powerful processing. It may become faster, but the conventional systems will always stay faster, because they can simply make use of the same processing power. I have to say that maybe it would become fast an accurate enough for your needs.

But for me DFD is a DEAD END. Hopefully Panasonic once will integrate conventional AF systems ....

iiiNelson
6th October 2019, 12:16
While I can agree to all what you say, I completely disagree WRT DFD. IMO this will never become as good as PDAF/CDAF systems, even with faster and more powerful processing. It may become faster, but the conventional systems will always stay faster, because they can simply make use of the same processing power. I have to say that maybe it would become fast an accurate enough for your needs.

But for me DFD is a DEAD END. Hopefully Panasonic once will integrate conventional AF systems ....

There was a time (not long ago) people said the same things about Sonyís hybrid AF never catching up to what Canon and Nikon were doing... itís been faster and more accurate in general than DSLRís for years now.

The point being that I could very well see a system like DFD advancing to the point where the difference between either is negligible or imperceptible to the end user. Itís close enough now in many situations. Where it currently falters is in lower light conditions with continuous. When the math and science gets good enough you can be assured that Panasonic will get to a point where their AF system isnít a hindrance for MOST. I say that because thereís a commitment and weíve seen substantial improvements from where they were 3 years ago with the GH5 where it wasnít close to competing to now where it can meet or exceed many Mirrorless cameras that arenít Sony cameras. You donít have to believe me... the video evidence is out there. Again low light continuous AF isnít as good as Sony but I think itíll get close enough to not matter in time.

Speedgraphic
7th October 2019, 18:41
Received my S1R. Not my AF lens just yet, but I did get my Pentax adapter so, the 43mm Limited is sitting on it.

Really nice feeling camera, with smart button layout. It more or less feels like a Nikon. I haven't dived too deep into the menus but it's all pretty intuitive. It's so easy to manually focus! Really, it's a slick camera. I like the size. If they're not going to make small lenses then don't bother making small cameras. That being said, my little Pentax pancake works well. If I ever get tired of shooting my LX, I'm sure it would be a nice walkaround kit. Sadly the S1R does not take Delta 100 or Ektachrome, so...it's mostly going to scan said films. I will be shooting it at a wedding in a couple weeks however, so it'll be interesting to see how it does.

The sensor has some specks on it though, I ordered a cleaning kit. *shrug*

Paratom
10th October 2019, 07:30
Here is my feedback after using the S1r now for some months...
Overall it works quite well, the IQ I am satisfied. Noise can sometimes become obvious when bringing up shaddows, so exact exposure and trying to keep ISO 1600 and below. IBIS helps.
While I get along fine with UI I am still more used to the SL interface philosophy, with reduced numbers of buttons. The S1r has way more buttons than I need. The viewfinder I really like. C-AF, like the SL, is dissappointing IMO and has nothing to do with a professional camera.
At the moment I use the 16-35, and 50 and 75 SL-Summicrons. If I want lighter and a flexible kit I also use the 24-105 specially during vacations. The 24-105 does quite well, I still give the edge to the Leica lenses in regards of color rendering, 3-d look and sometimes the 24-105 can show a funky bokeh (only sometimes, I assume its a question of distance and f-stop).
The IQ specially with the Summicrons is very much to my taste, I even would say one step closer to medium format look. 2 downsides of those Leica lenses are price and weight. But I can live with the weight and price... I see it as a long term buy.
I might go "back" to the SL2 body if it will fit my expectations because the light user interface of Leica is more suited to my working style plus here and then I might want to use an M lens.
In regards of body size...I think with the Summicrons or M lenses the SL is prefered size, for the larger lenses (like the zooms or the 50/1.4) the S1(r) body size balances quite well.
Overall I think the S1(r) is really a very good body.

Speedgraphic
15th October 2019, 18:10
Received the S Pro 50/1.4. It's a remarkable piece of glass. The AF is much faster than I expected in certain modes, but like others have suggested it is just weird in C AF. Can't trust the zone AF as far as I can tell.

I do wish it had a little extra mojo like 1.2, or was a 55 or 58.

I get why they're releasing zooms, but man it hurts to have no compact primes. Might just have to suck it up and get the Sigma 35/1.2 and deal with the size.

iiiNelson
2nd December 2019, 11:14
As many know... or may be aware of due to my posts, I've had some interest in the S1R (and the Lumix S system in general) due to Sony not releasing a larger body option for those with larger hands when using the larger lenses. I jumped on the nearly 50% Black Friday deal that B&H was having on S1R kit Open Box/Demo units last week and my unit arrived a day early a few hours ago. The battery is charging fully now but while it still had juice I took the time to update firmware of the body and lens before leaving it on to allow the battery to nearly completely drain. The camera battery had ~70% charge on arrival but setting up the camera (firmware updates to body and lens) plus setting up custom buttons got me down to about 60%. checking near and far focus on objects in the house gave me a bit of non-definitive insight on the focusing speed. So far so good but I'll be working on my thoughts over time. I'm also going to pick up a Sony/Minolta A-mount adapter for the 135/1.8 that I never sold and perhaps a M-mount to L-mount adapter for my CV 35/1.2 to hold me over until I can buy a 35 APO-Summicron... unless Panasonic introduces something more interesting. In reality though I will probably buy primes nearly exclusively for this camera and perhaps sell most of my Sony primes and stick to the very good Tamron zooms on that system. HEre's a few size comparisons to the G1 and A7RII (as I keep it configured) for size and weight... the weight difference really isn't as large as some reviews will make it out to be if one keeps a grip on their Sony camera. There's an even smaller difference if you're using Generation 3 or 4 bodies.

It’s a family affair...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49159967037_99424f0731_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hU6Fuz)s1r_g1 (https://flic.kr/p/2hU6Fuz) by Tre Nelson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/m3rq/), on Flickr

Not a 100% fair comparison because of lens choices but this is how I normally configure my Sony cameras... not a lot of difference in size or weight as you’ll see in the next couple of shots.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49159250493_7ca0db3bb8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hU31un)s1r_a7rii (https://flic.kr/p/2hU31un) by Tre Nelson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/m3rq/), on Flickr

2.147 pounds with battery or 974 grams for those metric people

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49159250533_ee720e0807_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hU31v4)a7rii (https://flic.kr/p/2hU31v4) by Tre Nelson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/m3rq/), on Flickr

2.328 pounds with battery, Arca compatible plate and Peak Design anchors... or 1056 grams for the metric people. Sony is also configured for the same setup though that plate is slightly lighter. In essence the difference is negligible to me.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49159736281_2c577b82d7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hU5uU2)s1r (https://flic.kr/p/2hU5uU2) by Tre Nelson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/m3rq/), on Flickr

drofnad
2nd December 2019, 14:41
[FONT=Avenir][FONT=arial]As many know... or may be aware of due to my posts, I've had some interest in the S1R (and the Lumix S system in general) due to Sony not releasing a larger body option for those with larger hands when using the larger lenses. I jumped on the nearly 50% Black Friday deal that B&H was having on S1R kit Open Box/Demo units last week and my unit arrived a day early a few hours ago.

Ha, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect. :D
(A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)

(-;

iiiNelson
2nd December 2019, 17:22
Ha, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect. :D
(A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)

(-;

The refurb deal is the exact same except you get a refurb instead of an open box/demo unit. I have to pay tax on certain online electronics in my state which brought the total up to ~$2400 or so.

Thanks for the heads up though.

I happened to be up at 4am Thanksgiving morning to do a little food prep. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on that G9 deal when “something” told me to search and see if there was a Black Friday LUMIX S deal... I saw the body only price of ~$1800 then I humored myself and added the kit lens... I couldn’t believe it and quickly added to cart in case it was one of those computer error deals. Got a shipment confirmed notice a few hours later and signed up for tracking updates. I knew the package was moving because I got label printed and moved to FedEx facility notices later that night... apparently the people in the warehouse were working on Thanksgiving. In any case I’m very happy with the deal. Everything came as new, still sealed in original plastic, and I received an email to have the warranty extended to 3 years total upon registration. Can’t beat that price for the camera kit... I mean essentially it’s $1400 for the camera plus the usual $900 for the lens.

I’m really anxious to take the camera through my paces and see how it goes over time. I’ll do some write-ups as I go. This will be my primary personal camera from here on out... there’s so much to like about it in the first few hours of owning it but there’s a lot to learn as well... particularly their naming conventions and where things are in the menu... that’ll all come in time with use though. I also ordered the Novoflex adapter for the Sony Zeiss 135/1.8 in A-Mount... it’s roughly the same size as the kit lens.

John Black
2nd December 2019, 22:22
Rec'd my "open box" kit today too. Looked like a brand new box and everything in box looked untouched. Nothing appears to have been repacked or used. Or, maybe it went back to Panasonic and they repacked it with all new stuff. Whatever the case may be, I can't complain. Looks new to me. All firmwares were 1.0, so updated the camera & lens, did some quick pix around the house and all seems good. Now to hide the boxes before the wife has another WTF moment :)

iiiNelson
3rd December 2019, 01:41
Rec'd my "open box" kit today too. Looked like a brand new box and everything in box looked untouched. Nothing appears to have been repacked or used. Or, maybe it went back to Panasonic and they repacked it with all new stuff. Whatever the case may be, I can't complain. Looks new to me. All firmwares were 1.0, so updated the camera & lens, did some quick pix around the house and all seems good. Now to hide the boxes before the wife has another WTF moment :)

Your day seemed to go EXACTLY as mine but thatís what storage crates and garages are for. :ROTFL:

John Black
3rd December 2019, 12:41
I opt for the "hide in plain sight" strategy and then tell my wife she's crazy... that box has been there for months... heck years!!! I'm not sure if it works or not :) Also, if you can stand it, keep your office / den a complete mess. Then added box just blends in with the general disaster zone look. She may not know the details, but she does know that the credit card seems regain airline points no matter how fast she spends them. Magic. Pure magic :)

Tom made a comment about the 24-105mm's bokeh (I think). Definitely some fugly-ness with busy foliage. I did some comparison shots with the Leica 90/2 APO M and Contax 100/2 Planar, both stopped down to F8 to compare bokeh. The 24-105mm has some donut bokeh tendencies, nissen rendering... for a kit zoom it doesn't matter, especially at this price, but it's something I'll be careful about.

Camera seems nice, but really big to me. If it had a grip, it would probably be the same size & weight as my long gone Canon 1Ds3. That's not a bad thing, but I can understand why Sony A7x users might have negative reaction. I've owned a bunch of the Sony's, not my favorite camera, but they are compact and fit easily into my Leica M bags. Whereas the S1R would probably blow out a seam or two.

Is there a way to assign EC adjustment to the round wheel on the back (the one with menu / set button in the middle)?

iiiNelson
3rd December 2019, 17:56
I opt for the "hide in plain sight" strategy and then tell my wife she's crazy... that box has been there for months... heck years!!! I'm not sure if it works or not :) Also, if you can stand it, keep your office / den a complete mess. Then added box just blends in with the general disaster zone look. She may not know the details, but she does know that the credit card seems regain airline points no matter how fast she spends them. Magic. Pure magic :)

Tom made a comment about the 24-105mm's bokeh (I think). Definitely some fugly-ness with busy foliage. I did some comparison shots with the Leica 90/2 APO M and Contax 100/2 Planar, both stopped down to F8 to compare bokeh. The 24-105mm has some donut bokeh tendencies, nissen rendering... for a kit zoom it doesn't matter, especially at this price, but it's something I'll be careful about.

Camera seems nice, but really big to me. If it had a grip, it would probably be the same size & weight as my long gone Canon 1Ds3. That's not a bad thing, but I can understand why Sony A7x users might have negative reaction. I've owned a bunch of the Sony's, not my favorite camera, but they are compact and fit easily into my Leica M bags. Whereas the S1R would probably blow out a seam or two.

Is there a way to assign EC adjustment to the round wheel on the back (the one with menu / set button in the middle)?

My wife is something of a neat freak so nothing is out of place for long. Thatís just not a strategy I could use... hence the stashing into old boxes in crates. In reality she probably doesnít care too much as Iím not really a ďspenderĒ most of the time. My newest camera was over 4 years old.

On a side ore I havenít taken the lens through the paces but I do plan to try out Sigma lenses tomorrow when they come to the local shop. Hopefully they bring some L-Mount stuff with them. The Tamron guy only brought Canon and Nikon junk but I already had the lenses on my Sony.

iiiNelson
4th December 2019, 19:21
Sigma was in town today and I got to try out the 45/2.8, 14-24/2.8, and the Sigma fp in L-Mount. I also tried out the 35/1.2 in E-mount. The 35 is nothing short of amazing. The 14-24 is very good (though they have a funky little filter/gel holder system behind the rear element. The 45 was nice and on the smaller side of things. The fp was interesting... but not for me. The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that itíll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility. Iím leaning towards adding the 35/1.2 in L-mount personally.

SrMphoto
4th December 2019, 20:10
Sigma was in town today and I got to try out the 45/2.8, 14-24/2.8, and the Sigma fp in L-Mount. I also tried out the 35/1.2 in E-mount. The 35 is nothing short of amazing. The 14-24 is very good (though they have a funky little filter/gel holder system behind the rear element. The 45 was nice and on the smaller side of things. The fp was interesting... but not for me. The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that itíll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility. Iím leaning towards adding the 35/1.2 in L-mount personally.

Thanks for sharing. What made you pick Sigma 35 f/1.2 instead of Leica Summicron 35 f/1.8? Price?

bensonga
4th December 2019, 22:30
The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that it’ll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility.

I sure hope it will be a FF Foveon sensor L-mount camera. I re-processed a few images from my sd Quattro tonight. I really like the sd Quattro images, but I would also love to have a higher resolution FF Foveon sensor L-mount option.

Gary

iiiNelson
5th December 2019, 02:39
Thanks for sharing. What made you pick Sigma 35 f/1.2 instead of Leica Summicron 35 f/1.8? Price?

I guess I still go back and forth but the benefits of the Sigma comes down to lens speed and price... optically and size wise, I think I still prefer the Leica. I wasnít expecting to like the Sigma as much as I did but I hadnít paid as much attention to it due to how often people mention the size.

...and with that said, it is (and I canít stress this enough) cartoonishly large for a 35mm lens but optically its excellent. It makes the Sony Zeiss/GM lenses that so many complained about for their larger sizes. The 14-24 and 45 are reasonably compact though for what they are.

iiiNelson
5th December 2019, 02:57
I sure hope it will be a FF Foveon sensor L-mount camera. I re-processed a few images from my sd Quattro tonight. I really like the sd Quattro images, but I would also love to have a higher resolution FF Foveon sensor L-mount option.

Gary

Well there will be one. It was announced last year and further details were given in February of this year. Itíll have a 20.3 megapixel (x3) sensor for total resolution of 60.9.

iiiNelson
5th December 2019, 06:02
On another side note it looks like the local camera store is considering bringing Panasonic back. While I was in there three other people came in to look at the Sigma products and inquire about Panasonic as well which lead to a conversation about ďwhatís the big deal with people asking about Panasonic now?Ē I gave my own personal perspective and let the worker handle my S1R briefly. I also asked him to look at it this way - you carry items from all of their partners but not them because they donít have ďas strong of a photographic historyĒ but it doesnít make sense not to carry them when youíre carrying Leica, Sigma, and Olympus... and I argued they probably had a stronger video history than everyone that isnít Canon (in the digital age) and Sony of the brands that they carry. Then there was conversation of throwing Fuji in there and for lenses Iíd agree that they have the history but not for cameras to the same extent... in any case there was a bit of bias (I personally feel) but I sort of feel they had the same feelings towards Sony 3 years ago... now they canít keep Sony stuff on the shelf and the legacy brands donít move as well generally speaking. Some feel tied to brands because of SLR lenses and others due to familiarity... nothing wrong with that but hearing the argument that Panasonic needs to build out a lens lineup still while youíre promoting Canon and Nikon Mirrorless is a bit short sighted. When you take pricing out of the equation, they launched with the second largest lens lineup and they will probably maintain a healthy distance for the next couple of years of L-mount does well commercially.

oh and on a side note I just remembered that there are at least another 6 ďdesigned for MirrorlessĒ Sigma lenses only the pipeline. The 14-24, 35, and 45 were just the first 3 announced/released. No clue on what the next lenses will be but they were described as ďabout 1/3 of what we will have to show in Mirrorless.Ē The rest of the SLR based lenses should be out by February and then the Mirrorless stiff should be releasing next year. The 14-24 was significantly smaller than the DSLR counterpart so thereís hope in seeing some newer Mirrorless designs for the L/FE Mount.

bensonga
7th February 2020, 15:41
I've been thinking about an L-mount camera since the Leica SL first appeared and then more seriously with the L-mount alliance and the Panasonic S1/S1r, soon Sigma or now perhaps a used SL. My original plan was to use an L-mount camera as the platform for my considerable collection of Leica R lenses. Of course I would buy a few native L-mount AF lenses also. I've been waiting for the Sigma Foveon L-mount camera to be released before making a decision/purchase. However, I now have an opportunity to buy very lightly used, near mint condition Panasonic S1 or S1r bodies, the 24-105/4, 70-200/4 and 50/1.4 lenses at prices that are about 50% of new (even less for the 50/1.4). Warranties included. I have about a week to decide. I'll be renting the S1r, 24-105 and 50/1.4 this weekend to give them a try. I might also try the S1 before making a decision.

To be honest, I haven't kept up with the views here on the GetDPI L-mount forum over the past several months re pros/cons of the S1 vs S1r. I'll be looking thru the various threads this weekend. I wonder if some who have wrestled with this decision would summarize your thoughts on the decision you ultimately made, especially with respect to using either camera with Leica R or similar lenses. If I were to buy a S1 or S1r, then it is even more likely that I will buy the Sigma Foveon L-mount camera when it is released (I really like images from my other Sigma Foveon cameras). In that case, maybe the S1 would be sufficient and perhaps a better fit for my Leica R lenses than the S1r?

TIA for your thoughts and experience.

Gary

Greg Haag
7th February 2020, 18:16
I've been thinking about an L-mount camera since the Leica SL first appeared and then more seriously with the L-mount alliance and the Panasonic S1/S1r, soon Sigma or now perhaps a used SL. My original plan was to use an L-mount camera as the platform for my considerable collection of Leica R lenses. Of course I would buy a few native L-mount AF lenses also. I've been waiting for the Sigma Foveon L-mount camera to be released before making a decision/purchase. However, I now have an opportunity to buy very lightly used, near mint condition Panasonic S1 or S1r bodies, the 24-105/4, 70-200/4 and 50/1.4 lenses at prices that are about 50% of new (even less for the 50/1.4). Warranties included. I have about a week to decide. I'll be renting the S1r, 24-105 and 50/1.4 this weekend to give them a try. I might also try the S1 before making a decision.

To be honest, I haven't kept up with the views here on the GetDPI L-mount forum over the past several months re pros/cons of the S1 vs S1r. I'll be looking thru the various threads this weekend. I wonder if some who have wrestled with this decision would summarize your thoughts on the decision you ultimately made, especially with respect to using either camera with Leica R or similar lenses. If I were to buy a S1 or S1r, then it is even more likely that I will buy the Sigma Foveon L-mount camera when it is released (I really like images from my other Sigma Foveon cameras). In that case, maybe the S1 would be sufficient and perhaps a better fit for my Leica R lenses than the S1r?

TIA for your thoughts and experience.

Gary

Gary,
I primarily shoot with medium format technical camera these days, but I have the S1R and the 3 native lenses you mentioned. I bought it because of the reviews I read at the time, the fact it uses the same cards as my digital back and the hi-res mode. It has been a great fit for me, but I cannot speak to how it compares to alternatives.
Good luck,
Greg

bensonga
7th February 2020, 20:08
I decided to bring the S1 (instead of the S1r), 50/1.4, 24-105/4 and 70-200/4 home for testing this weekend.

I like larger mirrorless camera bodies, so the S1 feels really good in my hands. :thumbs:

I just wish the Leica SL to R lens adapter wasn’t so darn expensive. It is now $1,015. Very close to the price of this S1. Guess I should have bought the adapter when it was “only” $750.

Gary

AndereObjektiv
7th February 2020, 20:53
I've had the S1R about a month, 330-ish shutter actuations.

Strengths are image quality, size/grip, weather sealing, pro level in every way. Evf is great. Falls to hand like a nikon or canon pro dslr, buttons for the most part in all the right places, and lots of them. Joystick is ok, but whatever. Menus are for the most part straightforward and mostly logical.

Weakness: Zoom in manual focus mode: Something in the way it is implemented, it doesn't actually zoom past 2x, the other zoom levels are just pixelated 2x views, so useless for critical focus. Fortunately the hdmi output has 1080p out so I can use an external hdmi monitor for critical focus. Some functions are a bit quirky, like constant preview mode is totally klunky compared to α7sm2, α9 and z7. In manual exposure mode on the others, a twirl of the shutter speed thumbwheel changes evf/screen instantly, on S1R it is slow and sometimes doesn't work. On manual focus assist zoom mode it turns off constant preview completely, so screen goes dark. Other quirky stuff, which probably has a menu setting somewhere but I can't even be bothered. I have one native lens, which I've owned for about 36 hours, the sigma 45 dg dn contempo l-mount, but even that I prefer to focus manually.

High resolution mode for landscapes: that's why I bought it and with the right glass it is spectacular. The files are simply astounding at this price level. Very good color science, no pdaf wasted pixels that have to be computationally magicked out to assemble the image like gfx and z7, excellent dynamic range at ISO 50. The new CVF50cII would be competition because it's 16bit with no pdaf as well, fits many lenses out there, but limited to 50mp so not there on spatial resolution compared to S1R or SL2 in high-res-mode.

For all it's quirks and shortcomings the S1R is a brilliant image making machine. Some of my images are in the fun with s1/s1r thread.

iiiNelson
8th February 2020, 01:10
In summary I absolutely love the Panasonic S1R but I acknowledge it isnít for everyone.

The IQ is excellent. The size and comfort are perfect for my hands. The lenses are great though I only own one native lens so far in the 24-105/4. There are plenty of native options now and itíll only continue to grow. The only shortcomings for me is that the AF in video leaves something to be desired. The menu is a bit quirky but understand Sony has been my primary camera brand for nearly 6 years so Iím more intimately familiar with where those items are. In time this will be a non-issue. Iím still learning the cameras and how it operates so my opinions arenít final yet. In time I feel the AF will get good enough that it wonít matter whether a company uses PDAF or CDAF based focusing... we just arenít quite there yet. Even still the focusing is better than I expected for still photography. I concur on the joystick being just okay. I concur on some of the controlled behaviors being quirky compared to how a Sony just works without going to a menu to force it to cooperate.

On a side note, I would hope that Leica will open up the L-Mount to a few other lense makers like Voigtlander to have some great native manual focusing primes that donít require an adapter. I look forward to seeing the lens roadmap for Panasonic being filled out. Iíd like a semi fast and reasonably sized Leica certified 35/1.8 lens and Iíd also like a native Leica certified 100/2 to be released.

Again I donít regret the purchase and I received an open box S1R kit for Black Friday for less than 50% of a new bundle. I think it would pair well with your G9 personally and Iím actually considering doing just that.

bensonga
8th February 2020, 08:55
The limitations on manual focus assist mode which Andere described concern me, since my primary goal is to use the camera as a platform for my Leica R manual focus lenses.

Gary

iiiNelson
8th February 2020, 09:03
The limitations on manual focus assist mode which Andere described concern me, since my primary goal is to use the camera as a platform for my Leica R manual focus lenses.

Gary

Well try it out... for me itís really about how different it is than in Sony. I think with increased use itíll mostly be a non-issue.

Regarding the Foveon camera... https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/oh-no-sigma-officially-said-full-frame-foveon-is-not-coming-this-year/

bensonga
8th February 2020, 13:35
That is really disappointing news from Sigma. :cry:

I hope they are able to bring a FF Foveon L-mount to market someday.

Glad I got the sd Quattro to tide me by for the next few years. Might have to pick up the sdQ H too.

Gary

bensonga
11th February 2020, 10:06
I decided to get the S1 instead of the S1R at this time. I think the 24mp sensor will work well with my Leica R lenses. It will be nice to have IBIS for my longer R telephotos (I had considered buying a used Leica SL). I also bought the 24-105/4, 70-200/4 and 50/1.4. Prices on the lenses were so good I just couldn't pass them up. I always prefer the ergonomics of a camera with the grip, so I picked up a grip too. I really like the feel of this camera and the weight doesn't bother me. It feels like a big brother to my Fuji X-H1 and Panasonic G9.

Since the Sigma Foveon sensor camera will be delayed for perhaps 2+ years, I may pick up a S1R in the months to come to use with the L-mount autofocus lenses.

Gary

https://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/9/4/3/panasonic_s1_and_s_pro_50mm_f1_4_lens-01.jpg

jdphoto
14th February 2020, 05:54
I decided to get the S1 instead of the S1R at this time. I think the 24mp sensor will work well with my Leica R lenses. It will be nice to have IBIS for my longer R telephotos (I had considered buying a used Leica SL). I also bought the 24-105/4, 70-200/4 and 50/1.4. Prices on the lenses were so good I just couldn't pass them up. I always prefer the ergonomics of a camera with the grip, so I picked up a grip too. I really like the feel of this camera and the weight doesn't bother me. It feels like a big brother to my Fuji X-H1 and Panasonic G9.

Since the Sigma Foveon sensor camera will be delayed for perhaps 2+ years, I may pick up a S1R in the months to come to use with the L-mount autofocus lenses.

Gary

https://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/9/4/3/panasonic_s1_and_s_pro_50mm_f1_4_lens-01.jpg

I've been interested in this camera too, but never handled it. The fact that Sigma makes an assortment of L mount lenses that are reasonably priced is intriguing. However, once you said it's like a Fuji XH1, I questioned the S1 because I hated the Fuji design.

Also, what are Sigma L mount lenses like on the S1/r?

bensonga
14th February 2020, 09:33
However, once you said it's like a Fuji XH1, I questioned the S1 because I hated the Fuji design.

Also, what are Sigma L mount lenses like on the S1/r?

I meant it is like the X-H1 with respect to the larger size of the X-H1 vs the X-T series cameras. I personally prefer the larger mirrorless camera bodies. That also explains why I really like the Pansonic G9 and Olympus E-M1X vs other m43rd cameras, especially when I am using the m43 telephoto prime and telephoto zoom lenses.

I don't have any of the Sigma ART lenses for my S1 yet.

Gary

jdphoto
14th February 2020, 10:09
Thanks Gary for the clarification. I'm thinking that high ISO would be great in the S1 too because of the smaller mp's, but plenty enough for good sized prints. Interestingly enough, DXO lists many Sigma Art lenses as their top performers, albeit, in a different mount, but still same optical formula. I looked at prices on the S1 and they're pretty decent right now. As much as the Canon has me intrigued, it probably won't ship until mid summer 2020. Ok, this might work for the S1, besides I love a round viewfinder. Also, any issues with AF for stills?

iiiNelson
14th February 2020, 14:15
Thanks Gary for the clarification. I'm thinking that high ISO would be great in the S1 too because of the smaller mp's, but plenty enough for good sized prints. Interestingly enough, DXO lists many Sigma Art lenses as their top performers, albeit, in a different mount, but still same optical formula. I looked at prices on the S1 and they're pretty decent right now. As much as the Canon has me intrigued, it probably won't ship until mid summer 2020. Ok, this might work for the S1, besides I love a round viewfinder. Also, any issues with AF for stills?

In general Sigma lenses that are designed for Mirrorless perform much better than the converted DSLR lenses. I’ve tried both the 45 and the 14-24 Mirrorless designed lenses and they were great. I’ve heard mixed reviews of the 35/1.2 in L mount but on the Sony it was excellent. As for the DSLR designs I hear mostly negative reviews as it comes to autofocus but I’d take that with a grain of salt until I can try for myself frankly.

As far as the autofocus for stills, I find that the S1R is mostly excellent. There are times where it may struggle but in my limited experience this is rare. When it grabs focus it does so extremely quickly and accurately. When it hunts then it probably won’t grab focus. For continuous shooting or video I just recommend people try for themselves.

I have little to no hesitation in recommending these cameras to stills shooters provided you’re prepared to learn what the camera likes and how it likes to be setup for maximum performance. In this regard I generally think the camera is excellent but still find the Sony to be easier to work with for most. With the Sony continuous autofocus, wide area mode, and real time tracking just work without fuss or menu fumbling for the best mode setting. You only have to worry about composition for the most part. The S1 is excellent for lowlight and gives up only a little in terms of DR to the Sony A7III or Nikon Z6. The best part of the Panasonic’s doesn’t show up on the spec sheet and that’s how they retain the color fidelity at higher ISO values. It’s what made me add a LUMIX S body and I’m still considering if it can become my primary system. Panasonic got so much right and if/when the autofocus becomes more reliable in the most extreme use cases I wouldn’t see any reason to not seriously consider them for every type of hybrid shooter. As of today I give the slight nod to Canon if one were starting from scratch or a huge nod to Sony when compared to what L-mount offers. L-mount is a pricier system to flesh out but Canon isn’t far behind. Sony has a wide price point. Nikon is generally affordable but uninteresting for me as I'm not a Nikon shooter. I can’t fully trust the AF of the Panasonic quite yet but I’m still learning the cameras too. It’ll get there in time though.

jdphoto
14th February 2020, 16:16
Thank you! Great points to consider. While I primarily shoot portraits both environmental/studio, I've also read that the AF on the S1/r's are not optimal because of the DFD design. Does the most current firmware mitigate this to any extent?

iiiNelson
14th February 2020, 16:26
Thank you! Great points to consider. While I primarily shoot portraits both environmental/studio, I've also read that the AF on the S1/r's are not optimal because of the DFD design. Does the most current firmware mitigate this to any extent?

The newest firmware was released shortly before I purchased my camera so itís all I know. By most accounts it improved it greatly but I donít have the prior experience to compare it to. What I can compare it to is the A7RII (plus limited experience with the A9 and newer Sony bodies), limited experience with the EOS R, limited experience with the Nikon Z, and limited experience with the Fuji X/G bodies. I will say the Sony is clearly better at continuous focus but I find that the Panasonic is every bit as snappy as the PDAF counterparts in decent to excellent light. In lower light it isnít as good and I recommend switching to single point at that junction for more reliability.

Iím still testing and learning the camera but I recommend renting it for yourself and test how you shoot to make the decision. I donít want to sell you the camera not knowing how YOU work. I know that it works for me but itís my ďpersonalĒ camera. The Sony cameras are my ďwhen I need work doneĒ cameras.

jdphoto
15th February 2020, 05:02
Iím still testing and learning the camera but I recommend renting it for yourself and test how you shoot to make the decision. I donít want to sell you the camera not knowing how YOU work. I know that it works for me but itís my ďpersonalĒ camera. The Sony cameras are my ďwhen I need work doneĒ cameras.

Understand! Yeah, I never shoot with AF-C, perhaps because of my all mechanical film cameras. Another reason is devaluation. I purchased my Z7 as an OB, with a kit zoom and full warranty for $2100 last year. Now, I can sell the Z7 only for $1800/1900 and part off the rest (50mm 1.8S, battery, XQD, etc and easily make up that difference considering I sold the kit zoom right away. The S1 is $1899 and would consider Sigma Art to start off. I had a Sigma 35mm Art for a Nikon D810 and loved that lens. I like a bigger camera and really like the look of this camera and that is a major part of my relationship with any camera. But, with all things said, I would like to handle it first.

iiiNelson
15th February 2020, 07:09
Understand! Yeah, I never shoot with AF-C, perhaps because of my all mechanical film cameras. Another reason is devaluation. I purchased my Z7 as an OB, with a kit zoom and full warranty for $2100 last year. Now, I can sell the Z7 only for $1800/1900 and part off the rest (50mm 1.8S, battery, XQD, etc and easily make up that difference considering I sold the kit zoom right away. The S1 is $1899 and would consider Sigma Art to start off. I had a Sigma 35mm Art for a Nikon D810 and loved that lens. I like a bigger camera and really like the look of this camera and that is a major part of my relationship with any camera. But, with all things said, I would like to handle it first.

Completely understand. The open box/demo deal I got on the Panasonic S1R sealed it for me at ~$2450 shipped with tax. Loved the idea of the camera but I didn’t love it enough to take that big of a chance at nearly $5k for the kit without getting my hands on it. The included 3 year warranty sweetened the deal for me.

It’s my opinion that not enough has been made of the value of the 24-105. It’s an excellent lens and very versatile with the ability to provide 1:2 magnification. It’s the only native lens I own and I’m not considering any autofocus lenses that weren’t designed for Mirrorless on this system. I’ve seen too many mechanical results that were all over the place with DSLR designs. Some better than others obviously but I think the kit lens and the Sigma 45/2.8 or the 14-24 are an excellent pairing until Panasonic introduces some faster primes. The Leica lenses are excellent as well but obviously are pricier. I’d personally wait on the new Sigma designs. I think you’d be happier with them, I believe that optically they’re fantastic, yet mechanically compromised, but most of all I don’t believe they’re optimized for the system.

As you say though... try them out. I remember that they were hit or miss even on the Sony but the new designs (35/1.2, 45/2.8, and 14-24/2.8) don’t have those issues at all.

Also check out this link... there have been two software updates since but this speaks to some of the performance.

https://youtu.be/CphwVNgX32s

jdphoto
16th February 2020, 17:33
Panasonic had a recent firmware upgrade (11/19) that apparently fixes some of the AF issues in the S series cameras. So, my understanding is regarding lenses, is that the newer Sigma 35mm 1.2 L mount is a good match as is the native Panasonic S 50mm 1.4 for the S1/R? The Panasonic S 50mm 1.4 has fantastic reviews and MTF. It should I suppose as they make most of the Leica digital lenses. I just read the s1/r is made in China? I thought Panasonic made these in Japan. What about the Pro S lenses and Leica digital?

iiiNelson
17th February 2020, 01:51
Panasonic had a recent firmware upgrade (11/19) that apparently fixes some of the AF issues in the S series cameras. So, my understanding is regarding lenses, is that the newer Sigma 35mm 1.2 L mount is a good match as is the native Panasonic S 50mm 1.4 for the S1/R? The Panasonic S 50mm 1.4 has fantastic reviews and MTF. It should I suppose as they make most of the Leica digital lenses. I just read the s1/r is made in China? I thought Panasonic made these in Japan. What about the Pro S lenses and Leica digital?

Yes Iím aware of the v1.3 firmware and itís what Iím running. From my understanding there wasnít as big of an AF performance jump from 1.2 to 1.3 as there was going from 1.0/1.1 to 1.2. Firmware 1.2 was nearly entirely focused on autofocus performance and adding the ability to unlock V-Log. Firmware 1.3 was mostly about CFExpress compatibility, adding options to customize Sigma lenses, lens firmware updates, and minor AF improvements.

The Sigma mirrorless lenses focus better than the DSLR versions but it seems that the Sigma lens mechanical performance is all over the place right now to be honest. Iíd be wary of purchasing many of their offerings without trying them. Optically they are all very good to excellent. Focus wise they still need fine tuning in L-mount. From what I understand the Panasonic lenses perform better across the board and the user ratings at various online camera stores seem to reflect this as well.

As far as the S1R being made in China, I never gave it a thought. If itís built to spec and performs as intended then the country of manufacture is of little importance to me. Itís common for people to praise the build quality of the cameras so itís mostly a non-issue Iíd say. If itís a deal breaker for you then there are other great options an the Sigma 35/1.2 is excellent on the A7RIV. Itís almost like they designed it with the Sony in mind and like the L-Mount will likely be improved through firmware later on.

Hereís a review of the Sigma 35/1.2 on the Leica SL2 which largely should reflect comparable performance to the S1R. Some say that one may be slightly faster to focus than the other with different lens combinations but internally they are largely the same camera.

https://youtu.be/YHZzEzXxZxs

Im not trying to talk you off the Sigma but I am saying that you may want to manage some of your expectations. The Panasonic 50/1.4 doesnít seem to have the same issues that the Sigma experiences when it comes to focus hunting. The same can be said for the Sigma 14-24/2.8 or 45/2.8. Perhaps the performance will improve but itís not quite there yet.

jdphoto
17th February 2020, 04:58
I really appreciate your in depth comments. It's very informative. Thank you.

iiiNelson
17th February 2020, 06:32
I really appreciate your in depth comments. It's very informative. Thank you.

Youíre welcome. I did a lot of research before making the decision to finally add L-Mount. For me a camera really has to add something tangibly different. The Sony system really has only a few flaws and Iíd say most of them are highly subjective. Like Iíve said many times, there really arenít any bad cameras but not every camera will work for everyone. I stress the importance of trying the cameras out for yourself and see how it is.

iiiNelson
17th February 2020, 06:35
Highlights of a recent interview with Panasonic.

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/panasonic-says-a-new-mid-range-l-mount-camera-is-coming-and-no-8k-camera-is-coming-soon-for-now/

iiiNelson
12th March 2020, 08:16
Great thoughts regarding the L-Mount as a whole.

https://petapixel.com/2020/03/09/the-state-of-the-l-mount-alliance-one-year-later/