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ptomsu
31st January 2019, 23:50
I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?

SrMphoto
1st February 2019, 07:34
I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?

Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :-).

ptomsu
1st February 2019, 08:06
Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :-).

For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.).

I am aware that this system will be heavier (much heavier) than my m43 gear but for the occasions I want to shoot this I would not care1

Godfrey
1st February 2019, 09:14
For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.). ...

Is that all? :toocool: LOL! :cool:

ó
We are such camera addicts.

I'm pretty happy with what I have now. Never say never, but this new Panasonic system is not interesting to me ... I already had the SL and loved it, used it a lot, and then found it really isn't what I want now. Interests and ideas change. The CL I replaced it with is getting the bulk of my use, although I'm heading off on a cruise and leaving it behindóI'll carry only the Light L16 and a table-top tripod for this trip, in addition to my iPhone. :D

And I'm working on my current fantasy ... an Instax SQ instant film back for my Hasselblad V system ... and enjoying/using the other gear I have a lot at present.

But the Panasonic S1/S1R look good. Their Lumix L1 was excellent in that day too, and still is (my friend back East is still doing assignments with the one I sold him).

onwards, G

ptomsu
1st February 2019, 17:18
I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&feature=em-lbcastemail

After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...

Jorgen Udvang
1st February 2019, 20:54
I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&feature=em-lbcastemail

After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...

So he's pissed off because he wasn't invited to the party?

Honestly, he lists every area where the S1/R is superior to one or more other cameras and finds a disadvantage. He also keeps repeating that only three lenses are available, which is an outright lie. There's a reason why Panasonic joined forces with Leica.

Here's an example:
He complains about the 180fps 1080p, and it isn't perfect. But how many non-Panasonic cameras below $5,000 offer 180fps 1080p?

Sorry, the guy is nothing but a Youtube clown, and I'm ashamed that I listened to his drivel for more than 15 minutes.

Godfrey
1st February 2019, 21:15
I turned him off after about 80 seconds. Drivel, whine whine, drivel drivel. Sheesh. :D

G

SrMphoto
1st February 2019, 21:20
I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&feature=em-lbcastemail

After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...

Please be considerate and list the name of the author(s) with the link so that we can decide whether to click on it or not. Thanks.

PeterA
1st February 2019, 21:21
At one stage he actually said "no one will buy this camera"....what else do you need to know?

ptomsu
1st February 2019, 21:24
Folks - WRT Northrop video, sorry for posting this!

Have had so much negative feedback already that I will also no longer listen to him!

Best regards

Peter

k-hawinkler
1st February 2019, 21:28
A simple solution. I always have sound off when clicking on YouTube.
Then leave that web page. Problem solved. :LOL:

iiiNelson
2nd February 2019, 04:05
Regarding Tony Northrup - he puts out "clickbait" type videos about once a month to elicit a response in traffic. It's a good model for him because he can spread the effects of the video after he either plays victim to the backlash within the next week or two or has people agree with him and turn it around to spread the idea that people interested in the camera are a "handful of crazy people." Either way, "he wins" on some level. Personally, I've written a long response in the past to one of his videos that highlighted this exact thing and WHY he receives the response he gets by making bold blanket statements that are more subjective to the user than factual across the board... and how many photographers across the world do things with "lesser cameras" by finding workarounds. IMO there's no doubt that things like advanced subject tracking, eye AF, advanced video features, etc. in premium cameras make the jobs easier (provided they operate as advertised) but I've shot concerts with Leica M's, Safari's using manual focusing lenses for 90%+ of shots, street photography with telephotos, and all kinds of things I wasn't supposed to be able to do (according to some) without electronic aids. All that being said, I'm in a position financially to afford higher end cameras so that's the route I usually take when the upgrade is actually worth it to me for what I personally do and many of the electronic aids like Eye AF are invaluable to me in many areas now that I'm used to it. For me it comes down to I can offload worrying about focusing and spend that time getting a few extra shots with different framing within the same time constraints because I do have a level of trust for my gear. That's really the underlying purpose of higher end gear - to make it easier to get THE shot.

One of my personal internal goals is to reduce the negativity around me because there seems to be way too much of it worldwide in real life. The last thing I want/need is to have to see/hear it online in my free time... so I'm taking a more solutions-oriented approach - even in my critical discussions. It's easy for me to pick apart most cameras on what's lacking but I stand by my consistent thoughts that there aren't many bad cameras these days... just a lot of subjective deal breakers across the board based on the user.

Regarding the Lumix S series here are my initial impressions based on the information passively absorbed (and forgotten) thus far.

Image Quality: The JPEG engine seems to be pretty good and exactly what I'd expectfrom a "FF G9" if you will. There seems to be a good amount of dynamic range captured in many of the landscape shots and shadow recovery (based on hands-on impressions) seems to be good even within the JPEG's. Most people also commented on the excellent color and black and white profiles that don't seem to require much editing and this is a thing I've always liked about Panasonic cameras going back 10+ years to the G1 for me.

Regarding ISO performance the S1R is relatively clean at 12800 and usable to 25600 IMO. The S1 is relatively clean at 25600 and still usable out to 102400 IMO. This is a great thing as it puts the high ISO performance roughly a stop ahead of the direct competition and makes the reality of the f/4 lenses available at launch matter just a little bit less as of now.

Body: It's a mixed bag but most things have been extremely positive when it comes to the build and the size of the body when used with the lenses that are on the larger side of things. This is probably my biggest "complaint" of my Sony system in that I feel like the grip is always "required" if you've limited your kit to the Sony Zeiss or Sony GM lenses as I currently do. Another highlight is that the layout and haptic feel of the cameras has earned high marks from the testers that come in a variety of sized from average sized women to larger men (I'm 6'3" and about 230 so I like some size). It seems like many in the industry are driving the point that there is room for some larger mirrorless bodies when professional photographers are the primary demographic. Again this camera continues the "FF G9" brand ethos and design.

Lenses: Mixed bag from those that have not used them and mostly positive for those that have.

In short, those that have used them stated that they are high quality and cover the basic working range of 95% of all photography with the obvious omission that none of the lenses will fully satisfy landscape or wildlife photographers just yet. The Lumix S Pro lenses (currently the 50/1.4 and 70-200/4) are "certified by Leica" and in that regard, it is clear that Panasonic and Leica didn't want to create any confusion in L-Mount lens pricing strategy between Panasonic branded Leica lenses and actual real Leica lenses.

The seemingly loudest voices with the boldest statements tend to be the ones that haven't used the camera or lenses (per usual for the internet). A lot of this is coming from a place of old guard thinking based on how Canon and Nikon structured their own lineup with faster/more exotic glass being the "pro" lenses and slower apertures representing "consumer" grade lenses... in their eyes. It's a huge reason why some people gave Nikon "grief" for introducing f/1.8 lenses or balk at Sony pricing the 55/1.8 at $999 at launch when their old "nifty 50" only costs them $150... well all lenses aren't created equally but I'd agree that there is a point of diminishing returns as you go higher end in ANY market. A Mercedes or BMW isn't three times as reliable as your average Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc. but you pay for prestige, a level of luxury, the name, and the premium service experiences. The Lumix S Pro 50/1.4 will likely approach or maybe exceed Zeiss Otus performance but the Sigma Art 50 comes close too... the point is to pick what works for you but I expect a lot of the higher price of the lenses is that they are designed to be optimal for photo AND video. No one that I'm aware of (besides maybe Sony thus far) has kept this part of mirrorless lens design for hybrid shooters in mind like Panasonic.

Regarding the pricing on the body and lenses, I'm sure there's an "L-Mount licensing tax" that Panasonic and Sigma will likely have to pay Leica to remain within the alliance. It is what it is and the price is the price. If one can afford it then great but if not there are other capable FF options from other companies.

Features: I'm not a huge video guy but the features provided seem to be capable with a few workarounds. If the video performance is the primary concern the GH line may still be better... or just invest into a dedicated video camera and stop compromising as much. One exciting thing is that this camera will receive access to the paid V-LOG upgrade (what's in the Panasonic Varicam line) and not V-LOG L (whats in the GH line) so that tells you where they eventually see the Lumix S series going and which market it'll play in.

EVF industry and class-leading... nothing else needs to be said.

Battery life... this may be the most power hungry camera on the market as it has a battery with nearly 50% more amperage capacity than generation 3 Sony bodies and almost half the CIPA rated battery life it seems. Thankfully there are multiple powering options through USB, camera grips, and battery packs. Not a serious concern of mine personally as I'm not a high volume shooter usually unless it's a wedding.

One thing that got me extremely excited in the leaked specs (prior to official announcement) was the inclusion of 2:1 and 65:24 crop in camera. Been asking for this from Sony in their R bodies for a good 2+ years now... still hasn't happened. Igenerallydothisinpost when wanted for some shots but having it in camera so I can get the framing right in camera is huge.

Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

Competition: My first thought when these cameras were announced and seeing the general praise they've received by actual users is that Panasonic JUST gave Sony permission to answer with R/S variants of the A9, then gave CaNikon permission to release higher-end RF and Z camera variants sooner rather than later. This is a great thing and one of the reasons that I'm going to hold off until the summertime at best before seriously considering any switch from Sony (and also because I feel like the cameras won't' do as well commercially as Panasonic hopes initially until some price drops/rebates happen). The bottom line is that people have yet another serious option to cross-shop in their research so while I don't agree initially that this is really "full frame without compromise" (because nothing really is uncompromised) I do feel like this may be full frame with minimal compromises.

SrMphoto
2nd February 2019, 07:19
<snip>

Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

<snip>


Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
"DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).

iiiNelson
2nd February 2019, 08:02
Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
"DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).

Hello and yes I'm aware of Panasonic's autofocus technology.

The comparison really comes down to camera makers like Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. that use a hybrid combination of PDAF (reacts faster and attacks focus acquisition more assuredly in general) and CDAF (tends to be more accurate but is constantly "hunting/pulsing/pumping" in continuous focus) versus Panasonic that uses CDAF based system with some "machine learning" in DFD involved that has enhanced focus acquisition speed versus the typical based CDAF system.

The issue for me personally comes down purely to continuous AF/Tracking speed and video AF where Panasonic has earned their questionable reputation SPECIFICALLY in these modes compared to Canon "Dual Pixel" or Sony "4D" tracking (all marketing speak for proprietary advanced AF like DFD for Panasonic). I've had good luck in single point AF generally speaking with Panasonic cameras but really that's my biggest concern about these cameras. All that said I haven't made any final conclusions until I can try them for myself but it is a concern based on past models and the complaints of many Lumix GH/G owners.

I don't have any strong comments towards Olympus... I don't own any of their cameras any longer and the one that I did - I had a bad experience with and will likely never buy another... I'll leave it at that.

So I don't totally disagree with your assessments but I still have my concern (based on recent Panasonic flagship cameras using the same technology) because I saw some videos where the cameras were slower to focus (mind you using preproduction firmware), that hunted a bit in practical photographic applications and still had the same pulsing issues associated with any CDAF systems... I also can get this with my Sony when I drop below f/8 (because I don't have an A9 that's sensitive down to f/11 and soon to be f/16 with a firmware update) so it can be a problem there too once outside the range where PDAF is active.

Taken from their press release:

Panasonic’s advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industry’s fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.

ptomsu
2nd February 2019, 09:13
Taken from their press release:

Panasonicís advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industryís fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.

This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!

iiiNelson
2nd February 2019, 09:52
This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!

Well, that's my personal concern (as stated above in my processed thoughts from the info I could gather online) as it applies to video AF performance AND continuous AF performance. I don't know that they can make it better than a combination of CDAF and PDAF - but perhaps it doesn't actually have to scientifically or theoretically be better. If they can get it to be close enough to a hybrid AF system (Canon Dual Pixel and Sony Hybrid AF are the benchmarks as of today) to where it doesn't matter and come up with a system to minimize the pulsing effect then that'll be fine for everything for most people when you overlook the "bragging rights" factors.

Now what I will say is that the G9/GH5/GH5s updates released in October/November 2018 seem to have solved MOST of the issues that people had but it's still not "perfect." Even still, it's much better compared to where it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdyGqWXON_U

iiiNelson
2nd February 2019, 19:54
Probably the most comprehensive “first look” I’ve seen about the cameras on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/8kSPFjwTi-I

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 03:09
This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!

There's one thing I don't understand: Back in the day, I shot video from a few night drifting events using a GH3 and the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8. Admitedly, the 75mm has extremely fast AF, and there is unusually good contrast at night drifting events but I rarely had problems tracking the cars. Sometimes, I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations with regards to C-AF. I understand that Sony and Fuji are better, and I know that Olympus is better, but with a good lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Panasonic camera for sports if needed. Not the GX8 though. The GH3 was actually better.

PeterA
3rd February 2019, 03:55
When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.

mjr
3rd February 2019, 04:43
As the grumpy old bastard I am, why the hell do we need an af system that can pick out people and animals?? I have been able to pick out animals for 45 years, I think my first word was cat!

Whilst I think these 2 cameras are easily the best options now for what I'd want from a 35mm system, i. a good sized, solid, weather sealed camera with an evf that is probably useable, I hate the gfx evf experience, I can't help but feel sad at the fact that photography is moving so far away from being something that requires skill, knowledge and practice and more towards automated nonsense. I saw a video on youtube recently of a "pro" photographer shooting a model with 1 hand in his pocket, his other hand outstretched simply relying on the system to grab eye af, urgh, I'm old.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything not to like about what has been squeezed in to both the S1 and S1r, if I was in the market I'd definitely go try them out when released, they look great all-round cameras. As I'm not, I think I will go back to looking at a Leica m and a couple of nice lenses, just to enjoy the act of photography and knowing when it's right it was because i got it right, not the camera.

Told you I was a grumpy old bastard!

Mat

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 05:04
As the grumpy old bastard I am, why the hell do we need an af system that can pick out people and animals?? I have been able to pick out animals for 45 years, I think my first word was cat!

Whilst I think these 2 cameras are easily the best options now for what I'd want from a 35mm system, i. a good sized, solid, weather sealed camera with an evf that is probably useable, I hate the gfx evf experience, I can't help but feel sad at the fact that photography is moving so far away from being something that requires skill, knowledge and practice and more towards automated nonsense. I saw a video on youtube recently of a "pro" photographer shooting a model with 1 hand in his pocket, his other hand outstretched simply relying on the system to grab eye af, urgh, I'm old.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything not to like about what has been squeezed in to both the S1 and S1r, if I was in the market I'd definitely go try them out when released, they look great all-round cameras. As I'm not, I think I will go back to looking at a Leica m and a couple of nice lenses, just to enjoy the act of photography and knowing when it's right it was because i got it right, not the camera.

Told you I was a grumpy old bastard!

Mat

Well I still think good photography requires skill. Progression, be it through automation or whatever will seemingly make life easier, will always be human nature. In the example you just described we can look at it as one handed operation or we can look at it as offloading mechanical functions to a machine so that we as photographers can focus on composition.

I do agree that better or at least more technologically advanced photography tools have become much more accessible to the masses but I donít know if thatís a bad thing in general. I guess itís all in perspective. You seemingly happen to value the idea in that a level of passion should be required to excel, and I donít totally disagree with you, but if we apply that across the board there would be lots of starving people if grocery stores/markets didnít exist assuming a person was a terrible hunter/farmer for example. Someone will always invent a way to make life easier for the masses given the ability.

...and yes the M provides one of the few limited opportunities for limited automation so youíre not crazy to desire one.

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 05:10
When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.

Even if it's possible, you will not get the best photos this way. Stills and movies are two different ways of telling a story. The best frame to tell the story with one image will often not be part of the video.

And I agree with Mat. Unfortunately, that is not only about photography. Everything is getting computerised and everything will look the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2lGkEU4Xs

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 05:11
There's one thing I don't understand: Back in the day, I shot video from a few night drifting events using a GH3 and the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8. Admitedly, the 75mm has extremely fast AF, and there is unusually good contrast at night drifting events but I rarely had problems tracking the cars. Sometimes, I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations with regards to C-AF. I understand that Sony and Fuji are better, and I know that Olympus is better, but with a good lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Panasonic camera for sports if needed. Not the GX8 though. The GH3 was actually better.

I donít know that people have unrealistic expectation of AF tracking... even many Panasonic Ambassadors have publicly commented on some of the shortcomings of video AF (but in a political way). I do believe that people get caught up in wanting the camera they own to check the most boxes but as they say (and by they I mean me) - donít let the idea of perfection get in the way of tangible greatness.

By all accounts the last firmware update for the latest G/GH Cameras fixed many of the glaring shortcomings but it is still not better than the best systems yet.


When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.

Panasonic cameras actually already do this in 4K/6K photo mode. They operate as 30fps and 60fps on these cameras.

mjr
3rd February 2019, 05:46
Well I still think good photography requires skill. Progression, be it through automation or whatever will seemingly make life easier, will always be human nature. In the example you just described we can look at it as one handed operation or we can look at it as offloading mechanical functions to a machine so that we as photographers can focus on composition.

I do agree that better or at least more technologically advanced photography tools have become much more accessible to the masses but I donít know if thatís a bad thing in general. I guess itís all in perspective. You seemingly happen to value the idea in that a level of passion should be required to excel, and I donít totally disagree with you, but if we apply that across the board there would be lots of starving people if grocery stores/markets didnít exist assuming a person was a terrible hunter/farmer for example. Someone will always invent a way to make life easier for the masses given the ability.

...and yes the M provides one of the few limited opportunities for limited automation so youíre not crazy to desire one.

You are correct, it is about perspective, I'm not saying that with a camera that does everything you don't need skill, I'm saying you need less skills. You still have to get up and go out, the camera doesn't quite do that yet, find something you like and turn the camera on of course.

I read so much about this brand or that brand, af isn't fast enough, it picks the wrong eye, won't follow this or that, at some point, I feel we have to take responsibility for our part of the process. It is entirely possible to focus wherever you want, it takes practice, with experience you can predict where someone or something will be, not always but often enough. When the camera does all that for you I feel it devalues the effort needed to be good at what you enjoy or do for a living. Just my view.

When I'm not shooting commercially, I don't even care so much about the image to be honest, it's being out, putting in the effort, getting it right based on the decisions I make. Of course there will always be those who want it easier, I'm not suggesting we go backwards, I'm just reserving my right to think it's all a bit rubbish. My GFX is an amazing work tool, I have made lots of money with it, but it leaves me wanting more. An evf is necessary part of owning the camera but I know what it takes to expose an image, the things others find great about it are lost on me, learn about exposure and feel better about the effort when you get it right. Again, my grumpy view.

As for a level of passion required to excel, that's not what I believe at all, I have passion for many things I will never excel at, excelling is not the goal for me, it's the doing. An odd analogy with the starving people and the lack of skills, it used to be that the best hunters and farmers survived to develop the human race, there are people starving and dying outside my door right now, it could reasonably be said it's not because they can't hunt or farm, it's because they are ravaged by war, greed and technologically advanced bombs have wiped their houses off the face of the earth. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

Mat

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 05:51
You are correct, it is about perspective, I'm not saying that with a camera that does everything you don't need skill, I'm saying you need less skills. You still have to get up and go out, the camera doesn't quite do that yet, find something you like and turn the camera on of course.

I read so much about this brand or that brand, af isn't fast enough, it picks the wrong eye, won't follow this or that, at some point, I feel we have to take responsibility for our part of the process. It is entirely possible to focus wherever you want, it takes practice, with experience you can predict where someone or something will be, not always but often enough. When the camera does all that for you I feel it devalues the effort needed to be good at what you enjoy or do for a living. Just my view.

When I'm not shooting commercially, I don't even care so much about the image to be honest, it's being out, putting in the effort, getting it right based on the decisions I make. Of course there will always be those who want it easier, I'm not suggesting we go backwards, I'm just reserving my right to think it's all a bit rubbish. My GFX is an amazing work tool, I have made lots of money with it, but it leaves me wanting more. An evf is necessary part of owning the camera but I know what it takes to expose an image, the things others find great about it are lost on me, learn about exposure and feel better about the effort when you get it right. Again, my grumpy view.

As for a level of passion required to excel, that's not what I believe at all, I have passion for many things I will never excel at, excelling is not the goal for me, it's the doing. An odd analogy with the starving people and the lack of skills, it used to be that the best hunters and farmers survived to develop the human race, there are people starving and dying outside my door right now, it could reasonably be said it's not because they can't hunt or farm, it's because they are ravaged by war, greed and technologically advanced bombs have wiped their houses off the face of the earth. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

Mat

Fair enough and I donít completely disagree with you in regards to photography being more accessible. The fact of the matter is that it is.

Regarding starvation - yes my analogy was completely simplistic and through a ďfirst worldĒ viewpoint... but it was just an analogy. Itís unfortunate that anyone has to starve with human advancements, wealth, and resources but thatís probably another unfortunate non-photographic discussion to begin with.

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 06:07
Regarding the CDAF based autofocus of these cameras, here’s a good comparison with the Z6.

https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

There are a few things of note for me:

A) The Panasonic generally isn’t as good at tracking in comparison (no real surprise there) but when it does lock on then it’s accurate.

B) Panasonic (and hybrid system) lens design in general is seemingly an overlooked element. The Panasonic focus transitions are clearly much smoother and “more cinematic” (in that they look more like a manual focus pull specifically they are less abrupt/jerky when compared to the Nikon). Perhaps Nikon designed their lenses with stepping motors instead of linear ones and this provides that instant focus grab effect.

C) As a photographer/videographer you constantly have to come up with workarounds. It seems stopping the lens down a bit (2 stops) minimizes the negatives of slower AF Tracking which allows the Panasonic to sufficiently “keep up” with the subject due to increased DoF.

So Jorgen perhaps this is why you didn’t have as hard of a time with AF-C Tracking on your GH3... there is just a lot more in focus and the minimal adjustments needed to shift the plane of focus typically didn’t affect your workflow. As we can see, people get themselves into trouble when they want extremely shallow DoF and autofocus (though in fairness Canon and Sony have little to no issue being able to do this).

That’s really the main point and it’s up to the user to make the gear work for them... or change to something that can. As we can see, the LUMIX S works in either setting but maybe the end user is better off with keeping the aperture to f/2 or narrower in video when the camera is unmanned.

Bernard
3rd February 2019, 06:37
The Panasonic focus transitions are clearly much smoother and ďmore cinematicĒ (in that they look more like a manual focus pull specifically they are less abrupt/jerky when compared to the Nikon).

There's a huge difference between AF for stills and AF for video. It looks like Panasonic optimized more for video, and Nikon for stills. That makes sense, Panasonic makes high-end video and cine cameras. Nikon, of course, is known for stills.

It would be more interesting to compare Panasonic's video AF with Canon's (which is by far the best in the business).

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 06:46
There's a huge difference between AF for stills and AF for video. It looks like Panasonic optimized more for video, and Nikon for stills. That makes sense, Panasonic makes high-end video and cine cameras. Nikon, of course, is known for stills.

It would be more interesting to compare Panasonic's video AF with Canon's (which is by far the best in the business).

Well there are comparisons to the Nikon and Canon EOS R, Fuji XT3, and Sony A7 already on the net.

The point wasn’t to “bash Nikon” but to point out an area not as heavily discussed in video performance where the Panasonic may shine for some shooters. There are videos showing the AF stills performance (with preproduction units) of the S1/R... in short it performs better in stills than video. This was never a concern though because the G9 performs well in stills in most cases. It’s mainly continuous tracking (primarily video) that’s of concern for most.

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 06:54
Another good write up on the LUMIX S.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-s1r/panasonic-s1rA.HTM#hands-on

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 16:55
Another good write up on the LUMIX S.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-s1r/panasonic-s1rA.HTM#hands-on

That's the kind of review that makes me want to buy the camera, not least the comment about the 50mm. Most photographers would probably do fine with the 3 lenses that were launched with the camera and nothing more. Me? I would need a longer lens too, but that's what m4/3 is for isn't it?

I also liked the positive comments about video from the S1R. That means that for "normal" video needs, the S1R is good enough and the camera to buy for stills photographers who do a little video on the side.

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 17:48
That's the kind of review that makes me want to buy the camera, not least the comment about the 50mm. Most photographers would probably do fine with the 3 lenses that were launched with the camera and nothing more. Me? I would need a longer lens too, but that's what m4/3 is for isn't it?

I also liked the positive comments about video from the S1R. That means that for "normal" video needs, the S1R is good enough and the camera to buy for stills photographers who do a little video on the side.

Yeah but if we are being honest most video in most hybrid cameras the last 3-5 years are good enough for normal usage. I think some people want/expect pro cinema camera and pro video performance at hobbyist prices.

Truth be told theyíd probably be better off with a dedicated video camera than trying to make a compromises solution work where a dedicated tool reduces the number of compromises.

I agree that that I could probably do most things with the launch lenses and probably wouldnít need anything else besides maybe a dedicated fast portrait lens.

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 19:21
C) As a photographer/videographer you constantly have to come up with workarounds. It seems stopping the lens down a bit (2 stops) minimizes the negatives of slower AF Tracking which allows the Panasonic to sufficiently ďkeep upĒ with the subject due to increased DoF.


Funny that you mention this. When I shot motorsports with a first generation Nikkor 300mm f/4 AF, I always stopped down to f/8 or f/11 if I had vehicles coming straight towards me. It became so much of a reflex that I didn't even look at the aperture number, just spun the wheel the approximate distance to give me enough DOF to compensate for the slow AF :D

That's called RI (real intelligence). No need for AI :ROTFL:

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 19:30
I agree that that I could probably do most things with the launch lenses and probably wouldnít need anything else besides maybe a dedicated fast portrait lens.

Luckily, someone already thought about that ;)

http://uk.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/SL-Lenses/Prime-Lenses/APO-Summicron-SL-90

iiiNelson
3rd February 2019, 20:25
Luckily, someone already thought about that ;)

APO-SUMMICRON-SL 90 f/2 ASPH. // Prime Lenses // SL-Lenses // Leica SL-System // Photography - Leica Camera AG (http://uk.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/SL-Lenses/Prime-Lenses/APO-Summicron-SL-90)

Yeah I would prefer something in the 100-110 range personally but we will see what Panasonic announces. I fear it’ll be an 85/1.4. While I don’t mind them, I find that 100mm seems to be the sweet spot for headshots for me.

I also don’t want to pay Leica prices for their lenses...law of diminishing returns and all. Great lenses... just am not trying to pay $4K+ for them when there are great options for much less.

On a side note though... a fast FF version of their 20/1.7 lense so let’s say a 40/1.4 (or 45mm) or 40/1.8 (or 45mm here too) would’ve been a great option.

PeterA
3rd February 2019, 20:33
How many lenses do people on here think are required to cover 80% of use - and how many for the next 20%?:)

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 20:52
How many lenses do people on here think are required to cover 80% of use - and how many for the next 20%?:)

For me, 3-4. With the new Panasonic cameras, the 24-105 mm being close focusing (30 cm), mostly eliminating the need for a macro lens, I could do more than 80% with the 3 existing lenses. For portraits, I would use a mix of the 50 mm and the 70-200 mm. A fourth lens, a long tele, could be on a m4/3 or APS-C body, like the 100-300 mm that I use with Panasonic's GX8 now.

Please don't ask how many lenses I currently own and how many I want to buy :ROTFL:

PeterA
3rd February 2019, 21:37
For me, 3-4. With the new Panasonic cameras, the 24-105 mm being close focusing (30 cm), mostly eliminating the need for a macro lens, I could do more than 80% with the 3 existing lenses. For portraits, I would use a mix of the 50 mm and the 70-200 mm. A fourth lens, a long tele, could be on a m4/3 or APS-C body, like the 100-300 mm that I use with Panasonic's GX8 now.

Please don't ask how many lenses I currently own and how many I want to buy :ROTFL:

Dont worry - I know exactly wht you are saying.:ROTFL::ROTFL:

The GFX50S I have 23 + 32-63 + 110/2 - I would like to have a 45/2.8 but I dont 'need it' as the zoom covers that range and does it very well...tbh even the 23 which is a fantastic lens isn't used as much as I woudl like - because it really is a special purpose lens at 18mm (effective in 35mm terms).

Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.

i thin 50MP is a game changer for me anyway - because the FujiGFX handles like an SLR - the GF100 coming out will even have IBIS...

I think the crop capability means fewer lenses need to be bought - same as in Panasonic 47MP camera.

I'm looking at a redundant Leica M system now - which means I have already paid for the GFX100 and SL2 +
\For the first time in 20years I think I can safely exit the Leica M system - which is quite a substantial investment in lenses.

Less is more might actually become a reality.

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 22:35
Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.



With the high pixel count in current digital cameras, and I'm of the opinion that 24 MP is already a high count, 50 mm lenses are really under-valued as portrait lenses. A 50 mm has the great advantage of being a good lens for most kinds of portraits, including environmental ones, while with 85 mm and longer, one tends to "hit the wall" quite literally if more than the subject's face is needed in the picture.

So from my point of view, both Leica and Panasonic did the right thing by starting off with large aperture 50 mm lenses. I wouldn't mind having the S1R with that lens only for starters.

ptomsu
3rd February 2019, 22:54
After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!

Jorgen Udvang
3rd February 2019, 23:57
After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!

Should I buy any of these cameras, I will keep my m4/3 gear, and carry a GX8 for telephoto and other specialised photography. Back when I bought the D810, I did the mistake of selling most of my m4/3 equipment, and that was not smart. Sometimes, small is better.

However, this would mean not investing in any of the expensive lenses for m4/3.

PeterA
4th February 2019, 00:22
With the high pixel count in current digital cameras, and I'm of the opinion that 24 MP is already a high count, 50 mm lenses are really under-valued as portrait lenses. A 50 mm has the great advantage of being a good lens for most kinds of portraits, including environmental ones, while with 85 mm and longer, one tends to "hit the wall" quite literally if more than the subject's face is needed in the picture.

So from my point of view, both Leica and Panasonic did the right thing by starting off with large aperture 50 mm lenses. I wouldn't mind having the S1R with that lens only for starters.

50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

Just a thought.

I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

FWIW - that where I'm heading.
Pete

PeterA
4th February 2019, 00:24
After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!

Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.

Jorgen Udvang
4th February 2019, 03:00
50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

Just a thought.

I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

FWIW - that where I'm heading.
Pete

Don't think I haven't considered it. There are used Fuji MF bodies for sale at my local shop all the time, right now an R for a reasonable price. We'll see. Nothing will happen in my case this side of summer (That's winter for you).

iiiNelson
4th February 2019, 03:12
Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.

You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.

PeterA
4th February 2019, 03:45
You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.

Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.

pegelli
4th February 2019, 04:04
I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?
I don't think Sony has the High Resolution pixel shift mode that the new Panasonic has.
And Trť (iiiNelson) likes larger bodies than the Sony ones, so that seems to be a big plus for him as well.

For me I don't see a reason to change system from Sony to the new Panasonic, I actually like the smaller Sony bodies and jumping ship and getting a whole new stable of lenses for me isn't justified (too expensive) just for the better EVF and the pixel shift technology. My photo's won't get any better, since I'm usually the limit, not my camera :grin:

But I can understand that for others it's a very tempting offer.

biglouis
4th February 2019, 04:21
I am a long-time Panasonic user, sometime Leica user and now Fujifilm MF user, as well.

I have to applaud Panasonic for going down this route and I think if you are in the market for a FF camera it should be seriously considered. Panasonic menus and ergonomics are the best I have used since I went digital nearly 15 years ago. This should bring some much needed improvement to the ease of use for owners, compared to other systems which in my opinion do not reach the same level.

My problem with what I have seen so far is (a) size of the bodies, e.g. ginormous and (b) pricing - as high and in some cases higher (e.g. S1R and 50mm lens) than the Nikon Z7, which says a lot.

The pricing is so high I would not consider moving from my Fujifilm MF system even if I wanted to. The value proposition of the S1R high end camera is just too close to the current pricing of the Fujifilm GFX50R and GFX50S and whether people care to believe it or not you cannot even begin to approach the IQ of a MF sensor with a FF camera.

I know a lot of people will howl with rage about the last statement but it is fact.

If you are doing landscape, portrait, commercial, architecture - whatever and are a pro or a serious prosumer then spend the extra and get into the Fuji system, would be my personal opinion and advice, if asked.

In the Dpreview video with Chris and Jordan, at one point Jordan expresses enthusiasm for the AI in the camera which will recognise wildlife. "All Panasonic needs is a long lens for birders!"

It is not credible that Panasonic will be able to develop the kind of birding lenses like the Nikkor 200-500, or the Canon 400L fast enough to entice away existing Nikon or Canon users for many years. Maybe even, never.

Nor do Panasonic have to support that requirement. If they go for the professional wedding, portrait, real estate, family etc market they could have a very good market share at some point in the future. It can still happen that Panasonic will out-Nikon, Nikon and out-Canon, Canon but I think that is at worst an uncertain achievement and at best maybe 5 years or more out, rather like the time frame it has taken Sony to get established as a serious alternative.

I think Panasonic have also missed a trick. I think they should have leap-frogged FF and gone straight to MF like Fuji. Fuji has a growing customer base as they make MF more and more affordable. That is a market ripe for competition whereas the FF market is likely to shrink over time.

Anyway those are my opinions: and just opinions. What do I know, eh?

LouisB

k-hawinkler
4th February 2019, 04:22
Dont worry - I know exactly wht you are saying.:ROTFL::ROTFL:

The GFX50S I have 23 + 32-63 + 110/2 - I would like to have a 45/2.8 but I dont 'need it' as the zoom covers that range and does it very well...tbh even the 23 which is a fantastic lens isn't used as much as I woudl like - because it really is a special purpose lens at 18mm (effective in 35mm terms).

Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.

i thin 50MP is a game changer for me anyway - because the FujiGFX handles like an SLR - the GF100 coming out will even have IBIS...

I think the crop capability means fewer lenses need to be bought - same as in Panasonic 47MP camera.

I'm looking at a redundant Leica M system now - which means I have already paid for the GFX100 and SL2 +
\For the first time in 20years I think I can safely exit the Leica M system - which is quite a substantial investment in lenses.

Less is more might actually become a reality.


Isnít it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.

ptomsu
4th February 2019, 04:44
Should I buy any of these cameras, I will keep my m4/3 gear, and carry a GX8 for telephoto and other specialised photography. Back when I bought the D810, I did the mistake of selling most of my m4/3 equipment, and that was not smart. Sometimes, small is better.

However, this would mean not investing in any of the expensive lenses for m4/3.

Or need to invest in any new and expensive m43 body :cool:

ptomsu
4th February 2019, 05:58
I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many € in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

So I would ask to finally stop comparing any MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!

iiiNelson
4th February 2019, 06:11
Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.

Itís as said above. I wouldnít mind if Sony made a larger body to balance their pro lenses in the Sony Zeiss and GM lines better.

I use the grips almost always because I feel like theyíre a ďrequirementĒ to be comfortable with heavier lenses. The EVF is sweet too but Iíve never really had an issue with any of Sonyís EVF in my existing cameras or the newer ones. I can and do switch between EVF, OVF, and ground glass on a semi-normal basis without issues.

I have zero issues with Sonyís performance and IQ, the ergonomics are more of a ďnice to haveĒ for me as Iím on the larger size for humans, and I also wouldnít mind having more in camera cropping options than 3:2 and 16:9 for framing. I know there are workarounds like buying an external monitor and using the framing on the external monitor but it should just be a simple enough option to add. The Panasonic seems to achieve something of a wish list for me outside of maybe the AF system... mainly because I donít think any camera is beating the A9 on the market. The other less important thing but itís an aesthetic factor is that Iíve always hated that there are lenses for Sony in houses in white exteriors (petty I know). I just do and wish it werenít the case.

So in short i still use my Panasonic G1... never had an issue with it but itís more or less ďunusableĒ above ISO 1600. Iíve always liked Panasonic cameras. Iíve always got on well with them personally and I do have more confidence in their camera making than I would with Canon or Nikon. Iíd say the same for Sony and Fuji as well. I still havenít ruled out Fuji as a possibility for me but Iíd prefer an updated XH2 even though I believe the XT3 is an extremely good camera. GFX 50S does most of what Iíd expect from it and the possibility to have the 100S without need for any Pixel Shifting for more resolution than I need most of the time is something Iím still keeping an eye on. Any switches for me will more likely happen in the 2nd half of 2019 or later - if it happens at all. Wedding season is coming up and unless Iím going to run a Panasonic alongside the Sony to get real testing in I would never dump the proven Sony system in the middle of wedding/portrait season. That would just be irresponsible for me to do.

iiiNelson
4th February 2019, 06:24
I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many Ä in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

So I would ask to finally stop comparing and MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!

I will say this only because many users of the GFX are concurrently running Micro 4/3, APS-C, and FF systems along side their MFD. They do have some valid points and the GFX 50S is roughly the same size as a 5D IV. If a person is using L glass or Sigma Art/Sports lenses than the sizes are pretty much negligible too.

I agree that in general, the fastest FF Cameras will focus faster than MFD but perhaps the difference in practical terms will be negligible when you consider that the L-Mount cameras are using CDAF based systems and the newest versions will incorporate hybrid CDAF/OSPDAF systems. Also when you factor in lens prices you may arrive at a very similar system price so it is worth considering/discussing IMO based on where Panasonic has prices their camera/lenses. I donít think the prices are out of line... I just donít think anyone expect Fuji to be this aggressive in pricing. People were rejoicing at a sub-$10k Hasselblad at Photokina 2016 only to realize Fuji put out a sub-$6,500 MFD then followed that with a sub-$4,500 body. Now we are looking at a sub-$10k flagship from Fuji with resolution that was $30k+ just to approach.

Back to the topic though. Iím hoping I can receive a demo/review copy of both Panasonic bodies because Iíd like one of each of it was the direction that I chose to move in but I will still keep an eye on what Sony is doing because theyíve been too quiet. That could mean they donít have anything but more than likely it means theyíll get most of the chatter re-directed back on their cameras soon.

biglouis
4th February 2019, 07:17
Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

ptomsu
4th February 2019, 07:48
Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

Louis,

sorry I did not want to offend you - and you are very right with that pricing issue!

But based on all my experience I would never ever compare MF with FF. And while Fuji seems to be on the right track currently I am not sure where all this will (can) lead in a few years from now. But maybe we have to see it from that side that Fuji is changing the market (pricing) - hopefully at least!

Thanks for your reply anyway - and I have similar thoughts about that EM1X ....

Peter

iiiNelson
4th February 2019, 08:00
Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

Regarding FF v. Cropped Sensors v. MFD... of a person can ONLY have one there’s an argument that FF provides the best balance of performance to size ratio. There are always exceptions to the rule because I feel the XT3 comes close enough to the average FF camera while not quite getting to the same level IQ wise as the class leading models but the same can be said for the best FF cameras approaching the IQ of the entry level MFD but being a ways off from the class leading models. The entry level MFD are still “better” in general like the same can be said for the lower end FF when compared to the best cropped sensors... but how much any of it matters is subjective to the user. Really thats all i have to say on the matter and any of the cameras can make great images sonits up to the end user to determine what short comings existing gear has that they cant easily work around and make a decision from there.

If I’m being completely honest there is nothing my existing gear can’t do photographically that I’ve asked it to do. What I’m in search of are subjective things not found on the spec sheets without giving up all the things I’ve come to expect from the spec sheet that makes my existing cameras great. Until that whole package comes together I see no real compelling reason to completely dump what I own without the replacement living alongside the workhorse. It’s why I haven’t invested in generation 3 Sony bodies - I’m not sure of their direction once additional competition rolls in. I’d like to believe they’ll stay the innovative course but I’m unsure they will. I hope they don’t become complacent in a way that Canon and Nikon appeared to the last 5-10 years. That would be a deal breaker for me personally. It was the process I used when I switched from Canon to Micro 4/3 (was an easy process for me because photography was purely hobby) and from Leica to Sony (was a bit harder because I loved the M9 but the Sony is infinitely more versatile when comparing features/ability). If I were to go to the Fuji or Panasonic route (assuming the next Sony announcements don’t make me forget they exist) they’d have to live alongside and run with the Sony through wedding and portrait season and prove themselves week in and week out. Simple as that. I’m undecided on anything but definitely curious as I have some personal projects building, some professional work for my wife and I growing, family life, school, etc. to keep me busy.

PeterA
4th February 2019, 20:20
Isnít it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.

yes 32-64 my mistake:banghead:

I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway! :ROTFL:

k-hawinkler
4th February 2019, 22:40
yes 32-64 my mistake:banghead:

I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway! :ROTFL:


Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldnít handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ľ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. Thatís the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. ::grin:

PeterA
5th February 2019, 00:12
Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldnít handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ľ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. Thatís the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. ::grin:

I must say I do look forward to shutterless shutters - I too like quiet.:thumbup:
Yes the 100 will b every very 'interesting' and then the 150 no doubt...:bugeyes:
Pete

Paratom
5th February 2019, 00:45
Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.

iiiNelson
5th February 2019, 02:51
Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.

Thereís a good chance Sigma will be the one to bring high quality APS-C lenses to the L-Mount. Time will tell but unless itís an immediate need I wouldnít make any hasty switches... though you could do a lot worse than the Fuji Cameras.

pegelli
5th February 2019, 03:45
Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
When I read such comments this cartoon always comes to my mind:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7sPGT5X/0/fc230c98/O/i-7sPGT5X.jpg

:LOL:

Knorp
5th February 2019, 08:21
just for fun ... :rolleyes:


https://youtu.be/ndb7wHa_MYY

bensonga
6th February 2019, 10:40
More on relative size comparisons....

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-s-lens-size-comparison-with-sony-canon/

iiiNelson
7th February 2019, 03:09
More on relative size comparisons....

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-s-lens-size-comparison-with-sony-canon/

I think itís this comparison that makes me feel that the S1 isnít THAT large (by standards of DSLRís). Maybe D500 size without the thickness.


http://j.mp/2WJRJTs

http://j.mp/2RL2UYn

iiiNelson
8th February 2019, 16:52
Updated AF test (though with beta software).

https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI

iiiNelson
19th February 2019, 12:58
New video on the LUMIX S Pro 50/1.4 lens.

https://youtu.be/lwOlbaEVbh8

iiiNelson
22nd February 2019, 13:12
Hands-on test by B&H Photo. In the video they use it with the Panasonic lenses, Leica SL lenses, and a Leica M lens.

https://youtu.be/tbLcTUBnMaw

ptomsu
23rd February 2019, 00:03
Hands-on test by B&H Photo. In the video they use it with the Panasonic lenses, Leica SL lenses, and a Leica M lens.

https://youtu.be/tbLcTUBnMaw

Just another stunning review IMHO!

I see this camera (system) as what I might finally end up after I made my mind up about what FF mirrorless to go. One of the most appealing things for me is the native support of Leica lenses (M and SL).

iiiNelson
23rd February 2019, 03:32
Just another stunning review IMHO!

I see this camera (system) as what I might finally end up after I made my mind up about what FF mirrorless to go. One of the most appealing things for me is the native support of Leica lenses (M and SL).

Yeah it looks good but Iím still hesitant about it until I actually get one to test out and try for myself. I like so much about it of the surface (great lenses, great high ISO, seemingly great body design, etc.) but Iím really concerned that most reviews/previews/hands-on test consistently mention theyíd like to see PDAF added in a future camera and that continuous AF doesnít work as well as single point. This is the same concern that I have with the Micro 4/3 cameras and I donít know how much future firmware can/will improve it.

Regarding Leica M lenses... Iím almost certain Panasonic is doing the ďheaviest liftingĒ for the Leica SL so they may know how the sensor needs to be designed to work with M glass... but Iím not sure that itíll be superior to L-Mount glass to begin with.

ptomsu
23rd February 2019, 03:55
Yeah it looks good but Iím still hesitant about it until I actually get one to test out and try for myself. I like so much about it of the surface (great lenses, great high ISO, seemingly great body design, etc.) but Iím really concerned that most reviews/previews/hands-on test consistently mention theyíd like to see PDAF added in a future camera and that continuous AF doesnít work as well as single point. This is the same concern that I have with the Micro 4/3 cameras and I donít know how much future firmware can/will improve it.

Regarding Leica M lenses... Iím almost certain Panasonic is doing the ďheaviest liftingĒ for the Leica SL so they may know how the sensor needs to be designed to work with M glass... but Iím not sure that itíll be superior to L-Mount glass to begin with.

Agree with the concerns about AF.

WRT M lenses - the M will always be the best camera for using M glass as it is natively designed for that purpose :thumbup:

iiiNelson
23rd February 2019, 08:31
Agree with the concerns about AF.

WRT M lenses - the M will always be the best camera for using M glass as it is natively designed for that purpose :thumbup:

I donít disagree with you but there are non-Leica M lenses that work reasonably well with most cameras too. In any case I dumped most of my M-mount lenses years ago so itís really not the biggest concern for me personally. I believe the L-Mount glass will likely surpass the M glass optically but at the expense of size.

ptomsu
23rd February 2019, 09:54
I believe the L-Mount glass will likely surpass the M glass optically but at the expense of size.

I am almost 100% sure of that :thumbs:

iiiNelson
25th February 2019, 10:46
Ted Forbesí latest take on the LUMIX S from his podcast. Sort of lengthy but great info and insight based on a Panasonic event over the weekend.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-photography-off-camera/id1444478597?mt=2&i=1000430575104

Iím not sure the podcast is available to Android users but someone can check.

iiiNelson
26th February 2019, 04:36
Sigma announced their set of Art series primes and their MC-21 lens adapter.

https://www.l-rumors.com/sigma-announces-the-release-of-12-new-l-mount-art-lenses/

The lens I hoped theyíd convert is the 24-35/2. Seems like a great general purpose zoom.

iiiNelson
27th February 2019, 09:25
Hugh Brownstone

https://youtu.be/bR63atoS0sA

Matt Granger

https://youtu.be/i_nv8lIo63Y

Chris Turner

https://youtu.be/BLTnv_bVYIM

Paratom
27th February 2019, 11:44
What you think about the user interface. To me it looks a little overloaded with buttons.
I hope Leica is coming out with an anoouncement of the SLII soon to be able to compare before jumping on a new body.

iiiNelson
27th February 2019, 13:02
What you think about the user interface. To me it looks a little overloaded with buttons.
I hope Leica is coming out with an anoouncement of the SLII soon to be able to compare before jumping on a new body.

Personally, I think the button layout (and the body in general) is close to perfect and I find the SL to be a little to spartan for me. I understand how/why some love the SL layout but it’s a bit too simplistic for me for what I’m used to. I like simple in the M but I think this is close to ideal to me for a “workhorse”
camera.

ptomsu
28th February 2019, 02:32
One general opinion is building up for me - based on several different reviews and videos about these cameras and lenses (to be expected):

This is getting a pretty large and heavy system!

This has nothing to do with quality in any respect that could be expected, but for me, as a non professional user (and I think there are many other non professional users out there) this system is getting far too much and heavy and large - at least for my purposes. I cannot see myself carrying a S1/S1R with a 1.4/50 and even a 4/70-200 around on vacation or somewhere in a city and for studio alone I would rent such equipment. Actually this seems to be so large and heavy that even MFD - looking at you Fuji - is not much heavier and larger if at all.

What I want to say, it is slowly turning out that this type of system is not for me simply because of size and weight, as are many other newly released FF mirrorless systems as well - with the exception of Nikon. So I have great hopes in what Nikon brings around their Z-mount in the coming years and as a second option Fuji X-system is getting more interesting again - as maybe the one and only system I would need.

iiiNelson
28th February 2019, 02:59
One general opinion is building up for me - based on several different reviews and videos about these cameras and lenses (to be expected):

This is getting a pretty large and heavy system!

This has nothing to do with quality in any respect that could be expected, but for me, as a non professional user (and I think there are many other non professional users out there) this system is getting far too much and heavy and large - at least for my purposes. I cannot see myself carrying a S1/S1R with a 1.4/50 and even a 4/70-200 around on vacation or somewhere in a city and for studio alone I would rent such equipment. Actually this seems to be so large and heavy that even MFD - looking at you Fuji - is not much heavier and larger if at all.

What I want to say, it is slowly turning out that this type of system is not for me simply because of size and weight, as are many other newly released FF mirrorless systems as well - with the exception of Nikon. So I have great hopes in what Nikon brings around their Z-mount in the coming years and as a second option Fuji X-system is getting more interesting again - as maybe the one and only system I would need.

Well I’ll say this. Looking at the announced lenses and the body alone the camera does appear to be large. When you look at it next to a G9 then it’s only slightly larger until to factor in the lens sizes. I think that is where Panasonic is accounting in increasing size to balance ergonomics with fast lenses. If a person is going to stick with f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms or slower then the smaller size of the Sony (sans grip) or the Nikon are fine. If a person wants f/1.4 or faster primes and f/2.8 or faster zooms then the Panasonic, Canon, or Sony with grip makes a lot of sense IMO. If a person is concerned about size I’d still argue the Fuji X might be the best of all worlds (balance of size, native lens options, speed) but make no mistake - despite Nikon’s claim of having great ergonomics the Z is nearly the same size as the Sony (my pinky and partner of my ring finger hang off) and the grip isn’t all that different in hand for me... plus their native lenses are larger compared to other lenses with the same apertures (for instance compare their 50/1.8 to the Sony 55/1.8) on account of having a larger mount.

The Fuji GFX 50S is pretty balanced and light. Looking solely at mass doesn’t tell the whole story and Ted Forbes touched on this in his recent LUMIX S impressions where he felt the Panasonic was much lighter than the Leica SL due to ergonomic design. Outside of the 110/2, the GFX the lenses are medium speed or slow apertures to balance the size to the body. I’m not making the decision for you but I’d wait until you can try them all for yourself next to each other and there’s a good chance we will see cheaper and slower native primes down the line too. What I’ve noticed in the last 5 years or so is that high resolving sensors require larger lenses to get the performance wanted.

The Panasonic 50/1.4 is about the size of the 55/1.4 Otus lens but with AF... perhaps we will see f/2 primes released that’ll be cheaper than the Leica ones but this is an expensive system designed for pro use from the ground up. For casual use and travel your Olympus seems to be up to the challenge and also lacks the size. Maybe just love what you have.

Ted Forbes hands-on impressions

https://youtu.be/F3jv_6Ahyb8

ptomsu
28th February 2019, 04:16
Well Iíll say this. Looking at the announced lenses and the body alone the camera does appear to be large. When you look at it next to a G9 then itís only slightly larger until to factor in the lens sizes. I think that is where Panasonic is accounting in increasing size to balance ergonomics with fast lenses. If a person is going to stick with f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms or slower then the smaller size of the Sony (sans grip) or the Nikon are fine. If a person wants f/1.4 or faster primes and f/2.8 or faster zooms then the Panasonic, Canon, or Sony with grip makes a lot of sense IMO. If a person is concerned about size Iíd still argue the Fuji X might be the best of all worlds (balance of size, native lens options, speed) but make no mistake - despite Nikonís claim of having great ergonomics the Z is nearly the same size as the Sony (my pinky and partner of my ring finger hang off) and the grip isnít all that different in hand for me... plus their native lenses are larger compared to other lenses with the same apertures (for instance compare their 50/1.8 to the Sony 55/1.8) on account of having a larger mount.

The Fuji GFX 50S is pretty balanced and light. Looking solely at mass doesnít tell the whole story and Ted Forbes touched on this in his recent LUMIX S impressions where he felt the Panasonic was much lighter than the Leica SL due to ergonomic design. Outside of the 110/2, the GFX the lenses are medium speed or slow apertures to balance the size to the body. Iím not making the decision for you but Iíd wait until you can try them all for yourself next to each other and thereís a good chance we will see cheaper and slower native primes down the line too. What Iíve noticed in the last 5 years or so is that high resolving sensors require larger lenses to get the performance wanted.

The Panasonic 50/1.4 is about the size of the 55/1.4 Otus lens but with AF... perhaps we will see f/2 primes released thatíll be cheaper than the Leica ones but this is an expensive system designed for pro use from the ground up. For casual use and travel your Olympus seems to be up to the challenge and also lacks the size. Maybe just love what you have.

Ted Forbes hands-on impressions

https://youtu.be/F3jv_6Ahyb8

I hear you and I also want to really love this system, as when ignoring weight and size all seems to be pretty perfect. Only I can no more see myself schlepping such heavy and large gear around for general photography. I do this mainly for fun now and to have some personal memories, but no more for selling photos or impressing clients.

For me the Z-system looks much more suitable and I guess also the most new S-lenses are shape-friendlier for my eyes - especially that new 2.8/24-70. We will see how that continues as soon as some Z Pro bodies are released.

Anyway I do not find that any FF mirrorless system brings much advantage to my type of photography and I cannot stop thinking that the Fuji X system would (again) be the best fit for me WRT size, weight, lens choices, functionality also and foremost video and finally price. I am no longer up to spending 5k on a camera body and one prime lens if I can have comparable quality and results for me with much less money.

And WRT m43 (Olympus) - I love that system but meanwhile I miss my Fuji X-system so much that I think I would overall be much happier with Fuji. Especially as soon as the X-H2 will arrive. Maybe then it is time to call it a day and jump ships. Although I fear that prices for used Olympus will further go down so I might still keep all I have and just ADD Fuji. Or maybe FF mirrorless, but from the current perspective FF mirrorless gets more unattractive every day/week, whereas Fuji X gets VERY attractive :thumbs:

Paratom
28th February 2019, 04:31
The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.

ptomsu
28th February 2019, 05:34
The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.

Maybe I will only need just one high speed lens. Maybe for the Z-system that could be the 1.2/50. And the rest just zooms, either 4 or 2.8.

What I really would need would be a native 80-400 or similar. Maybe the first vendor who brings such a lens (except Sony) would determine my future FF mirrorless system, it is as easy :D

iiiNelson
28th February 2019, 05:55
Maybe I will only need just one high speed lens. Maybe for the Z-system that could be the 1.2/50. And the rest just zooms, either 4 or 2.8.

What I really would need would be a native 80-400 or similar. Maybe the first vendor who brings such a lens (except Sony) would determine my future FF mirrorless system, it is as easy :D

Well thatís where I say Fuji makes a lot of sense for the non-professional that wants to get in the ballpark. Video and photo features are there with the XT3. IBIS will be there in the XH bodies of you need it but it likely wonít come until 2020. The lens lineup is already there and thereís no need to wait around. For the amateur or hobbyist - the S1 with the 24-105 and 70-200 will do most of what most people need... the Fuji 16-55 and 50-140 accomplishes the same things for about half the price and comparable depth of field.

The new Nikon Z 24-70/2.8 has a 82mm filter thread so itís largely the same size as pro DSLR/Mirrorless lenses with worse ergonomics since thereís no vertical battery grip announced for the current bodies... Iím not sure that gets you where you want to go size wise since itís a concern. Olympus is going to lose value if you donít sell but you canít get the focal length equivalents in any other system for being that small if thatís a priority.

ptomsu
28th February 2019, 06:00
Well thatís where I say Fuji makes a lot of sense for the non-professional that wants to get in the ballpark. Video and photo features are there with the XT3. IBIS will be there in the XH bodies of you need it but it likely wonít come until 2020. The lens lineup is already there and thereís no need to wait around. For the amateur or hobbyist - the S1 with the 24-105 and 70-200 will do most of what most people need... the Fuji 16-55 and 50-140 accomplishes the same things for about half the price and comparable depth of field.

The new Nikon Z 24-70/2.8 has a 82mm filter thread so itís largely the same size as pro DSLR/Mirrorless lenses with worse ergonomics since thereís no vertical battery grip announced for the current bodies... Iím not sure that gets you where you want to go size wise since itís a concern. Olympus is going to lose value if you donít sell but you canít get the focal length equivalents in any other system for being that small if thatís a priority.

Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus :cool: There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart.

WRT selling Olympus - this is already now less (far less) than 50% of new, so I most probably will keep this system just to satisfy my extreme tele lens desires :toocool:

iiiNelson
28th February 2019, 06:46
The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.

I believe most premium modern prime lenses designed to resolve on high megapixel sensors from every brand imaginable are very good to excellent wide open or stopped down. Some are better than others for sure but at that level it comes down to nitpicking in all reality.

I agree that a general purpose zoom, telephoto zoom, and midrange medium to fast prime in the 28-55mm focal length would suit the needs of most hobbyists. I also agree that most cameras are good enough that they arenít the limiting factor though they can be a subjective one. I really havenít found a camera that Iíve used for a good amount of time that I hadnít been able to get the shot with but I definitely have more preferences between what I like to use, what makes it easier to work with, whatís the fastest to use, and if I wasnít under constraints what Iíd prefer to use on vacation. Theyíre a not always the same.

I think Panasonic built the ideal pro body for me (sans hybrid AF) in the LUMIX S while still having great options in Micro 4/3 for those concerned with size. In many regards I think Sony builds the best hybrid photo/video bodies. If a person wanted a small FF system I think Sony is hard to beat and they have small primes and zooms to go along with pro level primes and zooms. Canon RF has possibly the most interesting lens lineup and the most uninspiring bodies available amongst the FF systems. Nikon is doing something different than they have but Iím not quite sure of their direction either. Leica seems to have strengthened through partnerships. Olympus has reinforced that they arenít a brand for me. Fuji is doing great things too and theyíre still a contender for me despite having an overly passionate user base.

iiiNelson
28th February 2019, 06:47
Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus :cool: There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart.

WRT selling Olympus - this is already now less (far less) than 50% of new, so I most probably will keep this system just to satisfy my extreme tele lens desires :toocool:

Nope I understand that. If money were no object (and I didnít have other priorities) I likely would buy a M10-P... but the value proposition isnít remotely there for me.

Godfrey
28th February 2019, 06:51
...
On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day. ...

When I had the SL, and now with the CL, I have often spent a couple of weeks walking about with just a Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 or Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Limited. I get my best pictures that way.

After I retired, I decided that carrying the SL zooms around was simply too much, far more than I needed for anything. They are magnificent performers, but if they're not what I need, it's stupid to lug them around and admire how good they are if I were to use them.

:D

G

Godfrey
28th February 2019, 06:57
Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus :cool: There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart. ...

Opposite for me. After owning and using Nikon SLR gear for thirty-plus years, very few of their modern offerings have any interest for me. I still have difficulties trying to think of selling my E-1, E-M1, and the magnificent Olympus pro-grade lenses I have for them. Even if I haven't used the cameras or lenses for a year or more...!

Fuji digital... I have no use for whatever. Just bought a lovely, clean Fuji GS645S Wide 60, however. I'll have it serviced before I use itóit's been sitting a long timeóbut I've been more excited by that than by any of the new Fuji digital cameras at all. :D

G

iiiNelson
24th March 2019, 19:26
Panasonic released the new LUMIX Sync app.

A couple of neat features I noticed in it including the ability to sync camera settings to the phone and be copied to extra bodies and the ability to use your iPhone/iPad to GPS tag picture metadata automatically.

iiiNelson
26th March 2019, 04:53
More or less what I expected from the images that Iíve seen. Not necessarily a bad thing as higher DR generally means a flatter image out of camera which requires software presets upon import to get them to a better starting point IMO.

https://www.l-rumors.com/dynamic-range-test-leica-q2-vs-sony-a7riii-sensor/

iiiNelson
28th March 2019, 09:48
V-Log paid firmware update is coming in July.

https://m.dpreview.com/news/5805992591/panasonic-s1-10-bit-and-v-log-paid-upgrade-coming-in-july

jdphoto
29th March 2019, 08:02
My dealer has an S1 and says the AF is really snappy. I'm interested in how the EVF compares to the Nikon Z. I've used plenty of mirrorless and so far, the best have been the Q and Nikon Z. Interestingly, the Fuji XH1 was my least favorite even though the mp's are similar.

iiiNelson
29th March 2019, 08:27
My dealer has an S1 and says the AF is really snappy. I'm interested in how the EVF compares to the Nikon Z. I've used plenty of mirrorless and so far, the best have been the Q and Nikon Z. Interestingly, the Fuji XH1 with was my least favorite even though the mp's are similar.

Maybe im not as sensitive as some people are to EVFís but I really didnít see all that much difference between the Z, EOS R, GFX, XT3, XH1, or A7RIII/A9 EVFís... and frankly I still find that many of the older ones are still fine too. I tried the SL a few years ago at the DC Leica store and it was nice but it wasnít as ďearth shatteringĒ for me as what some people have claimed. It was clearly the best EVF (at the time) but I never found any of older ones to prevent me from taking/making shots either even going back to he Panasonic G1.

Regarding the autofocus for photography it appears to be some of the snappiest autofocus on the market. Clearly a step behind the best Mirrorless and DOSRís in difficult situations but still better than most cameras too. Continuous is greatly improved above the Micro 4/3 cameras too and the ďwobblingĒ effect seems to be minimized.

Heres a couple of direct tests against the Z6

https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI

jdphoto
29th March 2019, 10:32
Maybe im not as sensitive as some people are to EVFís but I really didnít see all that much difference between the Z, EOS R, GFX, XT3, XH1, or A7RIII/A9 EVFís... and frankly I still find that many of the older ones are still fine too. I tried the SL a few years ago at the DC Leica store and it was nice but it wasnít as ďearth shatteringĒ for me as what some people have claimed. It was clearly the best EVF (at the time) but I never found any of older ones to prevent me from taking/making shots either even going back to he Panasonic G1.

Regarding the autofocus for photography it appears to be some of the snappiest autofocus on the market. Clearly a step behind the best Mirrorless and DOSRís in difficult situations but still better than most cameras too. Continuous is greatly improved above the Micro 4/3 cameras too and the ďwobblingĒ effect seems to be minimized.

Heres a couple of direct tests against the Z6

https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI

For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting. I hated the Leica CL's EVF in bright ambient too. The Z's seem to be more organic when shooting outdoors, but I guess any EVF at night is crappy.

faberryman
29th March 2019, 10:34
For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting.I wish my TV monitor looked as good as my EVF.

iiiNelson
29th March 2019, 10:43
For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting. I hated the Leica CL's EVF in bright ambient too. The Z's seem to be more organic when shooting outdoors, but I guess any EVF at night is crappy.

Yeah. I guess I just donít notice it to the point of it bothering me. What it sounds like youíre describing is light frequency flicker and most cameras have a setting for that. It just may not be on by default. I know in Sony cameras, some of the EVF high performance settings are off by default and I suspect much of this has to do with them earning a higher battery CIPA rating. In any case anti-flickering can be turned on if needed in all of the newest cameras I believe.

Iím thankful I donít have those issues because I strongly prefer EVFís in pretty much every way though I still use OVFís with my film cameras.

iiiNelson
29th March 2019, 10:44
I wish my TV monitor looked as good as my EVF.

If you own a HDTV or UHDTV then it likely would.

faberryman
29th March 2019, 10:58
If you own a HDTV or UHDTV then it likely would.I have an HDTV and my EVF is much clearer. But perhaps that is a result of signal compression by the cable company and not a fault of the display itself.

jdphoto
5th April 2019, 07:57
Where are all the reviews? These are in stock with most dealers now.

faberryman
5th April 2019, 08:15
Where are all the reviews? These are in stock with most dealers now.
What are the chances of a negative review? Reviewers will be falling all over themselves to see who can come up with the most superlatives. Wait a while for comments on the forums from actual users before deciding whether or not to take the plunge. Besides, the only Panasonic lenses currently available are the 24-105 f4 and 70-200 f4. The 50 f1.4 is a preorder (and costs a fortune). The Sigmas are preorder too. I suppose someone may put a Leica L lens on a Panasonic but I bet most will just wait for the SL2.

jdphoto
5th April 2019, 08:24
It seems China is also manufacturing the Lumix S1/S1r.

iiiNelson
5th April 2019, 11:36
What are the chances of a negative review? Reviewers will be falling all over themselves to see who can come up with the most superlatives. Wait a while for comments on the forums from actual users before deciding whether or not to take the plunge. Besides, the only Panasonic lenses currently available are the 24-105 f4 and 70-200 f4. The 50 f1.4 is a preorder (and costs a fortune). The Sigmas are preorder too. I suppose someone may put a Leica L lens on a Panasonic but I bet most will just wait for the SL2.

The 50/1.4 is shipping now actually and it seems to be ďfairly pricedĒ for what it is. The Sigmaís are slated for a Q4 2019 release.

iiiNelson
5th April 2019, 11:42
Where are all the reviews? These are in stock with most dealers now.

There are some YouTube ďreviewsĒ but Iíd take most of them with a grain of salt since many of them are done on pre-production firmware. There are more being worked on that I know of from a few more credible sources but in reality thereís only so much I take from any review. I tend to know what works for me better than others. I donít mind seeing impressions of the objective performance but other than that most of them are just a very small piece of how I view a camera.

faberryman
5th April 2019, 12:10
The 50/1.4 is shipping now actually and it seems to be “fairly priced” for what it is.I don't know what it is other than a 50mm f/1.4 lens. I haven't seen any information about it other than the price.

iiiNelson
5th April 2019, 12:37
I don't know what it is other than a 50mm f/1.4 lens. I haven't seen any information about it other than the price.

Iím not sure why youíd mention the costs without reading about it at all... as for the lens the highlights are as follows.

Designed to meet/exceed Zeiss Otus performance. Designed to be optimized for both photo and video. Minimal focus breathing (this is true of all LUMIX S lenses) for video usage. Autofocus speed designed to keep up with the 480 calculations per second of the LUMIX S cameras. Largest aspherical lens in a system camera of this type. Designed for smooth bokeh rendering. Designed to minimize ďcat-eyeĒ bokeh (though I have seen some in some shots personally).

we all would love premium lenses at knock-off prices but thatís just not reality. Lenses will get more expensive as radical new designs are made to accommodate higher resolution sensors.

faberryman
5th April 2019, 12:53
I’m not sure why you’d mention the costs without reading about it at all... as for the lens the highlights are as follows.

Designed to meet/exceed Zeiss Otus performance. Designed to be optimized for both photo and video. Minimal focus breathing (this is true of all LUMIX S lenses) for video usage. Autofocus speed designed to keep up with the 480 calculations per second of the LUMIX S cameras. Largest aspherical lens in a system camera of this type. Designed for smooth bokeh rendering. Designed to minimize “cat-eye” bokeh (though I have seen some in some shots personally).

we all would love premium lenses at knock-off prices but that’s just not reality. Lenses will get more expensive as radical new designs are made to accommodate higher resolution sensors.
What is the source of your information?

iiiNelson
5th April 2019, 13:23
What is the source of your information?

The internet... Google it. Read it. Watch videos on it. There's a wealth of information if you choose to absorb it.

faberryman
5th April 2019, 13:44
The internet... Google it. Read it. Watch videos on it. There's a wealth of information if you choose to absorb it.
I generally avoid YouTube reviews. You have to wade through so much blathering on to get to any useful information it is just not worth the time and effort. I have read some written reviews, but none of them contain any objective testing, mostly just regurgitation of specifications and marketing hype aimed at ratcheting up your GAS. I'll wait for something more definitive before drawing conclusions.

iiiNelson
5th April 2019, 18:07
I generally avoid YouTube reviews. You have to wade through so much blathering on to get to any useful information it is just not worth the time and effort. I have read some written reviews, but none of them contain any objective testing, mostly just regurgitation of specifications and marketing hype aimed at ratcheting up your GAS. I'll wait for something more definitive before drawing conclusions.

I can understand that for many people that do Youtube reviews but there are some consistent sources at well. The imaging Reaources written review has decent top level information and user impressions in it. Panasonic reps also are extremely active on social media and on some YouTube videos as well. Iíve posted some that have the product manager in them that talked about the design philosophy of the camera and lenses.

gerald.d
6th April 2019, 08:12
Hi all -

Not sure if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know whether the S1R can tether to Capture One?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

iiiNelson
6th April 2019, 13:27
Hi all -

Not sure if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know whether the S1R can tether to Capture One?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Not a dumb question and Capture One support hasnít been added yet. Lightroom support was just added on Thursday... I suspect Capture One will come in the next few weeks.

gerald.d
8th April 2019, 00:15
Not a dumb question and Capture One support hasnít been added yet. Lightroom support was just added on Thursday... I suspect Capture One will come in the next few weeks.

Many thanks - I will keep an eye out as this could be a great camera to put on my CAPCam.

I am a little concerned that no support will be forthcoming however, as it seems that Capture One doesn't support any Panasonic cameras at the moment.

Does the Lightroom tethering support live view, do you know?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 04:49
Many thanks - I will keep an eye out as this could be a great camera to put on my CAPCam.

I am a little concerned that no support will be forthcoming however, as it seems that Capture One doesn't support any Panasonic cameras at the moment.

Does the Lightroom tethering support live view, do you know?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

I donít use any Adobe products personally so I donít know if Lightroom supports tether. In the past there was only native tether support for Canon, Nikon, and Leica S cameras so I donít know the current situation. This was my huge reason for investing further into Capture One - they support my Sony Cameras natively without additional paid plug-ins. I do know that thereís a Panasonic tethering app and you can probably set it up to work as a hot folder with Capture One. RAW support for LUMIX S cameras was just added today for version 12.0.3.

Lumix tether app: https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/soft/download/d_lumixtether.html#page

gerald.d
8th April 2019, 05:43
I donít use any Adobe products personally so I donít know if Lightroom supports tether. In the past there was only native tether support for Canon, Nikon, and Leica S cameras so I donít know the current situation. This was my huge reason for investing further into Capture One - they support my Sony Cameras natively without additional paid plug-ins. I do know that thereís a Panasonic tethering app and you can probably set it up to work as a hot folder with Capture One. RAW support for LUMIX S cameras was just added today for version 12.0.3.

Lumix tether app: https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/soft/download/d_lumixtether.html#page

Ahh fantastic. Thank you so much. Found a YouTube video about the app and it has live view - I think Iím all set :)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 06:22
Ahh fantastic. Thank you so much. Found a YouTube video about the app and it has live view - I think Iím all set :)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

No problem.

This is probably the most interesting set of cameras to me since the Sony A9/ Fuji GFX were announced and released. Iíll probably rent them if I canít get a demo copy to try out before I decide to buy.

gerald.d
8th April 2019, 06:51
Ugh. Thereís always a fly in the ointment.

According to the review here, you canít use flash with multishot.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/digital-camera-reviews/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

Really bizarre - and frustrating - oversight there. If anyone from Panasonic is reading this, please get in touch!

Kind regards,


Gerald.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 06:59
Ugh. There’s always a fly in the ointment.

According to the review here, you can’t use flash with multishot.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/digital-camera-reviews/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

Really bizarre - and frustrating - oversight there. If anyone from Panasonic is reading this, please get in touch!

Kind regards,


Gerald.

I don’t know if you’re on Facebook but they have several product managers and ambassadors that frequent the internet for feedback/feature requests. I’ve submitted a couple myself (High-speed shooting to 24fps output and manual focus direction options in the menu) that have reportedly been passed along to the LUMIX S team in Japan for potential future firmware update. I also know that they’ve passed along ProRES RAW requests because many production studios have adapted it as the standard for daily deliverables as well plus the reduction in data size compared to many other compressed formats is loved by many.

If not I don’t mind passing along the request in some of the groups that I know they frequent.

faberryman
8th April 2019, 07:12
Ugh. Thereís always a fly in the ointment. According to the review here, you canít use flash with multishot.Would your flash recycle quickly enough between exposures?

gerald.d
8th April 2019, 08:06
I donít know if youíre on Facebook but they have several product managers and ambassadors that frequent the internet for feedback/feature requests. Iíve submitted a couple myself (High-speed shooting to 24fps output and manual focus direction options in the menu) that have reportedly been passed along to the LUMIX S team in Japan for potential future firmware update. I also know that theyíve passed along ProRES RAW requests because many production studios have adapted it as the standard for daily deliverables as well plus the reduction in data size compared to many other compressed formats is loved by many.

If not I donít mind passing along the request in some of the groups that I know they frequent.

Thanks. I will attempt to connect with them on FB.

gerald.d
8th April 2019, 08:08
Would your flash recycle quickly enough between exposures?

I use Profoto D1ís. It very much depends on the power and time beteeen the exposures. And also I assume on whether the camera would even trigger the flash for each exposure?

Hereís what was written in the review...

ďIf thereís one practical complaint I have about high-resolution mode, itís that it doesnít work with flash. Some cameras with multi-shot modes let you program a delay between each exposure so that a flash or studio strobe has a moment to recharge, but there is no such setting on the S1R.Ē

Kind regards,

Gerald.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 08:12
Would your flash recycle quickly enough between exposures?

Maybe on lower power settings but we are talking about 8 exposures in about a second typically.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 08:16
I use Profoto D1ís. It very much depends on the power and time beteeen the exposures. And also I assume on whether the camera would even trigger the flash for each exposure?

Hereís what was written in the review...

ďIf thereís one practical complaint I have about high-resolution mode, itís that it doesnít work with flash. Some cameras with multi-shot modes let you program a delay between each exposure so that a flash or studio strobe has a moment to recharge, but there is no such setting on the S1R.Ē

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Cool, look for Sean Robinson or Tamar Stern on the member lists of the groups you join. Theyíre both regularly active on a near daily basis.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 08:26
On a side note, it seems that the S1 is playing nicely with Voigtlander M-mount lenses. This isnít a huge surprise as I found that even the first generation Sony A7 played nicely with the CV 35/1.2 Nokton v2 and the 21/1.8 Ultron. What will be more interesting is if they play nicely with Leica Aspherical lenses... thatís where I saw the most issues with adapting.

https://youtu.be/uYCv5g__A0I

End of the day though there is impressive performance from these cameras. Of special consideration is the high ISO performance that doesnít just have reduced noise in the picture... a good amount of the color detail is actually retained in all of the lowlight pictures. Thatís whatís most special about the performance of these cameras IMO.

DougDolde
8th April 2019, 08:42
I don't even know what an S1 is

ptomsu
8th April 2019, 08:49
I don't even know what an S1 is

Information ist eine HOLSCHULD :cool:

faberryman
8th April 2019, 08:49
On a side note, it seems that the S1 is playing nicely with Voigtlander M-mount lenses. This isn’t a huge surprise as I found that even the first generation Sony A7 played nicely with the CV 35/1.2 Nokton v2 and the 21/1.8 Ultron. What will be more interesting is if they play nicely with Leica Aspherical lenses... that’s where I saw the most issues with adapting.

https://youtu.be/uYCv5g__A0I

End of the day though there is impressive performance from these cameras. Of special consideration is the high ISO performance that doesn’t just have reduced noise in the picture... a good amount of the color detail is actually retained in all of the lowlight pictures. That’s what’s most special about the performance of these cameras IMO.
I would not place trust in any evaluation by Steve Huff. He also claims that he can communicate with the dead and sells devices for such purpose.

Huff Paranormal | I Record Clear voices of the Dead. Inventor of The Portal, Wonder Box and SoulSpeaker. (http://huffparanormal.com/)

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 08:51
I don't even know what an S1 is

Google is your friend... no need to remain in ignorance if you have an internet connection to gain knowledge.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 08:56
I would not place trust in any evaluation by Steve Huff. He also claims that he can communicate will the dead and sells devices for such purpose.

Huff Paranormal | I Record Clear voices of the Dead. Inventor of The Portal, Wonder Box and SoulSpeaker. (http://huffparanormal.com/)

You donít have to trust him.

He posts pictures and there are enough sources to verify and validate across the internet. Unless there is a massive internet conspiracy his early impressions are mostly consistent with what other sources are reporting. Against the big takeaway is to ingest the information and decide if the results are consistent with what your eyes may or may not tell you.

Regarding his other interests... not my business whether or not he can actually confer with the dead through potentially occult practices. Not my thing and it brings no direct harm to me or my family.

ptomsu
8th April 2019, 09:01
I would not place trust in any evaluation by Steve Huff. He also claims that he can communicate will the dead and sells devices for such purpose.

Huff Paranormal | I Record Clear voices of the Dead. Inventor of The Portal, Wonder Box and SoulSpeaker. (http://huffparanormal.com/)

I trust in his ability to tell what he likes about a camera and what not. This seems to be always pretty honest, even if I often do not share his findings. But he never says something bad a bout a product he does not know.

Hence I found his review very informative and I think I would feel the same about such a camera.

The communication with dead part - well one does not have to listen to everything. A professor of mine once said something very true - there is always something like an "OFF SWITCH" if some content is not to one's taste.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 09:13
I trust in his ability to tell what he likes about a camera and what not. This seems to be always pretty honest, even if I often do not share his findings. But he never says something bad a bout a product he does not know.

Hence I found his review very informative and I think I would feel the same about such a camera.

The communication with dead part - well one does not have to listen to everything. A professor of mine once said something very true - there is always something like an "OFF SWITCH" if some content is not to one's taste.

Yeah I agree.

While I donít always share his exact feelings I can always respect his viewpoints and approach to not being overly negative - to the point he wonít even review a product that he doesnít genuinely like in order to not tear the product or product team down. He generally communicates with the manufacturer and privately shares his thoughts with them. I can respect that.

He also shares his workflow which puts everything into perspective as well. He uses the SL/S1 as a platform for his M-mount lenses near exclusively.

ptomsu
8th April 2019, 09:19
Yeah I agree.

While I don’t always share his exact feelings I can always respect his viewpoints and approach to not being overly negative - to the point he won’t even review a product that he doesn’t genuinely like in order to not tear the product or product team down. He generally communicates with the manufacturer and privately shares his thoughts with them. I can respect that.

He also shares his workflow which puts everything into perspective as well. He uses the SL/S1 as a platform for his M-mount lenses near exclusively.

And what I like especially about that is to learn about his experiences with M lenses on a non-Leica camera. The S1 might just be a perfect and reasonably cheap solution for me to do exactly the same - finally shoot my M lenses again on a capable camera body and not have to pay the crazy high prizes for modern Leica M's or the Leica digital cameras :thumbs:

And maybe later, if I really like what I can get from an S1 I always can add some native L-mount lenses if I need/like.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 09:40
And what I like especially about that is to learn about his experiences with M lenses on a non-Leica camera. The S1 might just be a perfect and reasonably cheap solution for me to do exactly the same - finally shoot my M lenses again on a capable camera body and not have to pay the crazy high prizes for modern Leica M's or the Leica digital cameras :thumbs:

And maybe later, if I really like what I can get from an S1 I always can add some native L-mount lenses if I need/like.

The only thing I’d caution is that Steve Huff mostly uses Voigtlander lenses and they generally have worked well on most cameras. I owned the CV 21/1.8, 28/2, 35/1.2v2 (still own this lens), and 50/1.5 in M-mount across time. The 21/1.8 and the 35/1.2v2 performed more or less flawlessly with the Sony cameras (even without a sensor stack conversion) IMO. The issue was with my aspherical Leica lenses that just didn’t work all that well. I owned the 24 Elmar, 35 Cron v5, 50 Lux, and 90 Pre-AA (which was excellent). The Zeiss ZM 50/2 Planar was also excellent on the Sony so it too is a great option that shouldn’t present issues if you adapt.

I’d be interested to see how all of those lenses performed but I’ve already read elsewhere that lens EXIF data and profiles don’t transfer across to the Panasonic with the Leica M to L adapter due to Leica M lens profiles not being built into the Panasonic firmware. Just something to consider if you decide to go this route. Maybe buy an inexpensive M to L adapter (if your dealer doesn’t carry them) to test your M lenses on the LUMIX S prior to purchase.

As for native L-lenses there will likely be f/2 options from Sigma in the future according to their newest interviews. The Panasonic lenses seem to be excellent as well... even their f/4 zooms. I can probably get by with the 3 lenses on the market right now for most things and I wouldn’t mind adding Leica APO-Summicron in 35 and 90 over time. I still haven’t owned another 35 as good as the 35 Cron v5. It’s the one lens I was most disappoint about not working great on my Sony bodies. I reluctantly sold it but I didn’t see myself ever investing in another Leica since I was put off slightly at the time at their direction which seems to have had something of a correction lately.

Knorp
8th April 2019, 10:44
Huff's take: The Panasonic S1 vs Leica SL (High ISO test) (http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/?fbclid=IwAR12u16YPUWYAE_wiW9cNJgRyedFOk_q7qIIAJUB xQzaDSobhT7jLQKDB-I) with more to come ... :)

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 12:03
Huff's take: The Panasonic S1 vs Leica SL (High ISO test) (http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/?fbclid=IwAR12u16YPUWYAE_wiW9cNJgRyedFOk_q7qIIAJUB xQzaDSobhT7jLQKDB-I) with more to come ... :)

Thats what I posted above...

Knorp
8th April 2019, 12:59
Thats what I posted above...

Huh?! You did ?

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 13:03
Huh?! You did ?

LOL... yes... in post #123 which sparked the Steve Huff comments. No worries though. Itís decent insight on his experiences.

iiiNelson
8th April 2019, 18:32
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/07/the-panasonic-s1-with-leica-m-lenses-canon-ef-as-well/

Knorp
8th April 2019, 20:36
LOL... yes... in post #123 which sparked the Steve Huff comments. No worries though. Itís decent insight on his experiences.

Okay - I see. Still, that was about Leica M lenses (The Panasonic S1 with Leica M lenses. It sees in the dark), while this time it's a (High ISO test) comparison between the S1 and the SL.
Anyway, good to see L-mount products have Steve's attention ... :)

iiiNelson
9th April 2019, 05:28
Okay - I see. Still, that was about Leica M lenses (The Panasonic S1 with Leica M lenses. It sees in the dark), while this time it's a (High ISO test) comparison between the S1 and the SL.
Anyway, good to see L-mount products have Steve's attention ... :)

Yeah I know he went back to the SL, the EOS R, and a 1Dx2 not too long ago. Probably not my choices for cameras personally (though I did like the 1Dx cameras when Iíve used them in the past) but thatís not to say that any of her are bad.

faberryman
9th April 2019, 06:00
The communication with dead part - well one does not have to listen to everything. A professor of mine once said something very true - there is always something like an "OFF SWITCH" if some content is not to one's taste.
A recipe for confirmation bias. Just listen to what you want to hear and don't listen to what you don't want to hear.

iiiNelson
9th April 2019, 06:20
A recipe for confirmation bias. Just listen to what you want to hear and don't listen to what you don't want to hear.

I donít hear or see dead people...

faberryman
9th April 2019, 06:57
I donít hear or see dead people...
Maybe if you bought the device he is selling you would be able to. You believe him about corner performance of M lenses on the S1/S1R.

iiiNelson
9th April 2019, 12:52
Maybe if you bought the device he is selling you would be able to. You believe him about corner performance of M lenses on the S1/S1R.

Well I believe my eyes as it applies to performance on CV lenses. Iím not in the market for ghostbuster devices though. I donít dismiss his relevant content though because he happens to have some different hobbies. I donít know the man personally but from everything I do know about him, he seems like a decent man... and at the end of the day his other hobbies donít affect me.

JoelM
10th April 2019, 07:23
I don't read his blog nearly as much anymore after I discovered his theories on dead people. It is impossible to let his ideas on something that I find ridiculous not color my impression of his opinions. I think it is human nature and not necessarily a case of "just extract the parts you like" methodology.

Joel

algrove
10th April 2019, 08:06
Does anyone here actually own an S1 or S1R?

atanabe
10th April 2019, 10:05
Does anyone here actually own an S1 or S1R?

Algrove, I went to WPPI in February and played with the camera extensively over two days. I found the version of software at the time a bit buggy but really almost there. At the same time I tried all the others, Nikon Z, Canon R and Sony, but I kept going to the Panasonic. The lure of using the Leica L mount glass? The promise of Sigma Art lenses? I am a sucker for Leica glass and in the end wanted to be able to use my M glass on an image stabilized full frame body. While the Leica SL is a prime candidate for M glass, it lacked image stabilization and the cost was 2x more. I tried the Sony A7rIII with my 21 Summilux and the edges smeared so that knocked it off the list, Nikon Z, did not try with the M glass, no adapter readily available. Canon R, no in body IS and no adapter readily available.

Last weekend, Camera West had a launch event for the S1/S1r which I attended. The cameras were on v1.0 software and I was able to try it out with my M glass via the Leica T-M adapter. The camera behaved as I wanted it to, the edges had the same edge response as the M10 with the 21 Summilux. I ended up buying the S1 and 24-105 kit. Why? because it punched the most items off of my list. The L mount opens up a large number of high quality lenses, adapters to the Leica S lenses and M lenses all on an image stabilized platform. I opted to get the lower resolution body for two reasons, better high ISO performance and optimal file size for most of the subjects. I can opt for the high res multi shot for times that I really need that much resolution.

SrMphoto
10th April 2019, 23:42
Lloyd Chambers is putting S1R through its paces and found quite a few issues. I am not a subscriber and do not buy everything he says, but so far I have not seen any other thorough analysis of the system yet. Here are his objections:

- M glass does not work well on S1R
- XQD card problems
- issues with manual focus

He has also plenty of good things to say about S1R, it seems.

jdphoto
11th April 2019, 04:53
Algrove, I went to WPPI in February and played with the camera extensively over two days. I found the version of software at the time a bit buggy but really almost there. At the same time I tried all the others, Nikon Z, Canon R and Sony, but I kept going to the Panasonic. The lure of using the Leica L mount glass? The promise of Sigma Art lenses? I am a sucker for Leica glass and in the end wanted to be able to use my M glass on an image stabilized full frame body. While the Leica SL is a prime candidate for M glass, it lacked image stabilization and the cost was 2x more. I tried the Sony A7rIII with my 21 Summilux and the edges smeared so that knocked it off the list, Nikon Z, did not try with the M glass, no adapter readily available. Canon R, no in body IS and no adapter readily available.

Last weekend, Camera West had a launch event for the S1/S1r which I attended. The cameras were on v1.0 software and I was able to try it out with my M glass via the Leica T-M adapter. The camera behaved as I wanted it to, the edges had the same edge response as the M10 with the 21 Summilux. I ended up buying the S1 and 24-105 kit. Why? because it punched the most items off of my list. The L mount opens up a large number of high quality lenses, adapters to the Leica S lenses and M lenses all on an image stabilized platform. I opted to get the lower resolution body for two reasons, better high ISO performance and optimal file size for most of the subjects. I can opt for the high res multi shot for times that I really need that much resolution.

Although, you've already purchased the S1, you might have wanted to wait on the M to Z adapter. I have the Novoflex M to Z and R to Z adapter on a Z7. I can say with enthusiasm that it's the best mirrorless for adapting M lenses I've ever used because of the very thin sensor stack. The ergonomics and weight are imo, much better than any Leica digital with IBIS, EFCS, peaking and zoom. Using f0.95 glass on this camera is amazing and accurate The 28mm Elmarit M, and 50mm 1.4 Lux are excellent on the Z.

atanabe
11th April 2019, 05:16
Although, you've already purchased the S1, you might have wanted to wait on the M to Z adapter. I have the Novoflex M to Z and R to Z adapter on a Z7. I can say with enthusiasm that it's the best mirrorless for adapting M lenses I've ever used because of the very thin sensor stack. The ergonomics and weight are imo, much better than any Leica digital with IBIS, EFCS, peaking and zoom. Using f0.95 glass on this camera is amazing and accurate The 28mm Elmarit M, and 50mm 1.4 Lux are excellent on the Z.

To date, the only mount that I can use my Leica S glass on is the L mount and that played a big factor in the decision. I am not trying to convert others, just going over my reasons for the purchase. When Sigma releases their Foveon camera next year, that will also be considered. But for now, instead of waiting for the ďif only it had this...Ē camera, I bought what I felt had features important to me, to use today.

jdphoto
11th April 2019, 05:48
To date, the only mount that I can use my Leica S glass on is the L mount and that played a big factor in the decision. I am not trying to convert others, just going over my reasons for the purchase. When Sigma releases their Foveon camera next year, that will also be considered. But for now, instead of waiting for the ďif only it had this...Ē camera, I bought what I felt had features important to me, to use today.

Now that makes sense. Enjoy your camera!

faberryman
11th April 2019, 05:52
I donít dismiss his relevant content though because he happens to have some different hobbies. I donít know the man personally but from everything I do know about him, he seems like a decent man... and at the end of the day his other hobbies donít affect me.
Since when is defrauding gullible people a hobby?

iiiNelson
11th April 2019, 07:30
Since when is defrauding gullible people a hobby?

I donít know who heís defrauding personally... Iíve said repeatedly - I donít pay attention to ANY of that stuff. Maybe others do but I choose not to. Itís simple as that for me.

If you want to choose to continue dragging this manís other interests down then please do it in another place and with other people. Iím not interested in his other hobbies. Im not interested in passing judgments on him. Iím interested in culminating various camera opinions here and thatís all. the negativity here is why I took an extensive break from this forum. I would appreciate if you can respect that.

Thank you in advance.

Paratom
11th April 2019, 08:32
To date, the only mount that I can use my Leica S glass on is the L mount and that played a big factor in the decision. I am not trying to convert others, just going over my reasons for the purchase. When Sigma releases their Foveon camera next year, that will also be considered. But for now, instead of waiting for the ďif only it had this...Ē camera, I bought what I felt had features important to me, to use today.

I read in another forum that the AF of the S lenses does not work on the S1/S1r. The f-stop seem to work though.
I own the adapter and the S lenses work on the SL but the focus speed is slow compared to S lenses on the S or compared to SL lenses on the SL, but at least they auto focus on the SL.

jdphoto
12th April 2019, 05:08
DXO has a sensor review of the S1. Very similar performance to the Z6.

pegelli
12th April 2019, 05:42
Yes, slightly above the Z6 and just below the A7iii: DXO sensor comparison (https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Panasonic-Lumix-DC-S1-versus-Nikon-Z6-versus-Sony-A7-III___1291_1269_1236)

It seems all these recent 24 MP sensors perform very close to each-other

NRKStudio
13th April 2019, 22:30
Although, you've already purchased the S1, you might have wanted to wait on the M to Z adapter. I have the Novoflex M to Z and R to Z adapter on a Z7. I can say with enthusiasm that it's the best mirrorless for adapting M lenses I've ever used because of the very thin sensor stack. The ergonomics and weight are imo, much better than any Leica digital with IBIS, EFCS, peaking and zoom. Using f0.95 glass on this camera is amazing and accurate The 28mm Elmarit M, and 50mm 1.4 Lux are excellent on the Z.

The S1r is really v serious rig for adapted M glass. My close fam member has a Z7 which I use, I have an A7r3/m10-p and I just rented the S1r for a couple weeks. Iíd venture to bet that the S1r has the exact sensor/micro lens (coverglass) as the SL2 will have. Iíve so far tried the 50 APO, 50/.95 Noct, 28 Lux, plus the D35 ZM and they are screaming on the S1r. Still corners appear better on the M10, but thatís most likely due to crop of its sensor. The Z7 handled the D35 very well, but not so well the 50 APO and 28 Lux. I have only compared by switching the same SD card out b/w cameras (except Z7) and photographing pictures on my refrigerator, but I am just so impressed with the S1R.

I almost feel like Iím holding the SL2 :)

NRKStudio
13th April 2019, 22:32
The S1r is really v serious rig for adapted M glass. My close fam member has a Z7 which I use, I have an A7r3/m10-p and I just rented the S1r for a couple weeks. Iíd venture to bet that the S1r has the exact sensor/micro lens (coverglass) as the SL2 will have. Iíve so far tried the 50 APO, 50/.95 Noct, 28 Lux, plus the D35 ZM and they are screaming on the S1r. Still corners appear better on the M10, but thatís most likely due to crop of its sensor. The Z7 handled the D35 very well, but not so well the 50 APO and 28 Lux. I have only compared by switching the same SD card out b/w cameras (except Z7) and photographing pictures on my refrigerator, but I am just so impressed with the S1R.

I almost feel like Iím holding the SL2 :)

Also, do you experience viewfinder choppiness in magnified view on the Z7? Itís v distracting when using the focus magnifier on the Z7 on MF with M glass. Even the Sony is much smoother.

NRKStudio
13th April 2019, 22:41
So he's pissed off because he wasn't invited to the party?

Honestly, he lists every area where the S1/R is superior to one or more other cameras and finds a disadvantage. He also keeps repeating that only three lenses are available, which is an outright lie. There's a reason why Panasonic joined forces with Leica.

Here's an example:
He complains about the 180fps 1080p, and it isn't perfect. But how many non-Panasonic cameras below $5,000 offer 180fps 1080p?

Sorry, the guy is nothing but a Youtube clown, and I'm ashamed that I listened to his drivel for more than 15 minutes.

Lol! You should read the comments, they are really calling him out on the lies. He even puts a non-S Panasonic on the table to try to confuse people into believing he has used the camera!

gerald.d
14th April 2019, 04:15
Hi all -

Ok. So I’m at the stage of reading the S1R manual which usually means a purchase is imminent. Also, I have just ordered the Kipon M645SL adapter to enable me to attach the camera to my CAPcam.

I asked a question earlier about the high resolution functionality of the S1R, and whether in the future it might be possible that Panasonic would introduce the ability to set a delay between each of the 8 frames so that this function could be used with strobes.

But reading the manual something hit me - High Resoltion mode is detailed as being available with Program, Aperture, Shutter and Manual exposure modes.

Since in my environment I have complete control over ambient light, presumably if I were to use manual mode and set the shutter speed to, say, half a second, then the camera would expose for 0.5 seconds for each of the 8 frames, thus giving my Profotos time to recharge.

Can anyone confirm whether I have understood this correctly?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

/edit

Bugger. High res mode uses the electronic shutter, which cannot be used with flash :(

iiiNelson
14th April 2019, 05:00
Yes, slightly above the Z6 and just below the A7iii: DXO sensor comparison (https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Panasonic-Lumix-DC-S1-versus-Nikon-Z6-versus-Sony-A7-III___1291_1269_1236)

It seems all these recent 24 MP sensors perform very close to each-other

I would say that the one big advantage that Iíve seen over the A7 III is that the S1 holds color detail a lot better at high ISO than Iíve seen any other camera do.

jdphoto
15th April 2019, 05:15
The S1r is really v serious rig for adapted M glass. My close fam member has a Z7 which I use, I have an A7r3/m10-p and I just rented the S1r for a couple weeks. I’d venture to bet that the S1r has the exact sensor/micro lens (coverglass) as the SL2 will have. I’ve so far tried the 50 APO, 50/.95 Noct, 28 Lux, plus the D35 ZM and they are screaming on the S1r. Still corners appear better on the M10, but that’s most likely due to crop of its sensor. The Z7 handled the D35 very well, but not so well the 50 APO and 28 Lux. I have only compared by switching the same SD card out b/w cameras (except Z7) and photographing pictures on my refrigerator, but I am just so impressed with the S1R.

I almost feel like I’m holding the SL2 :)

It's the thinner sensor stack that gives the Nikon Z7 an advantage when adapting M lenses because of oblique angles of light. The wide diameter, short flange and thin sensor cover allow light a more direct path to the sensor. I'm pretty sure the M10 has a 36x24 sensor, so wouldn't be considered "cropped". I haven't read many reviews since the S1/S1r is in stock at most retailers. Although, DXO has a sensor score for the S1 similar to the Z6. The pre hype seems to be more enthusiastic than the pre orders. Also, shooting interior pictures might not be the best comparison as you probably won't use the full throw of the lens. Try MF at all distances utilizing the the full aperture range. All cameras today are excellent. Some less slippery or more bulky than others, but if specifically adapting M lenses to another camera, then the Z 7 is hard to beat, imo.

jdphoto
15th April 2019, 05:51
Hi all -

Ok. So I’m at the stage of reading the S1R manual which usually means a purchase is imminent. Also, I have just ordered the Kipon M645SL adapter to enable me to attach the camera to my CAPcam.

I asked a question earlier about the high resolution functionality of the S1R, and whether in the future it might be possible that Panasonic would introduce the ability to set a delay between each of the 8 frames so that this function could be used with strobes.

But reading the manual something hit me - High Resoltion mode is detailed as being available with Program, Aperture, Shutter and Manual exposure modes.

Since in my environment I have complete control over ambient light, presumably if I were to use manual mode and set the shutter speed to, say, half a second, then the camera would expose for 0.5 seconds for each of the 8 frames, thus giving my Profotos time to recharge.

Can anyone confirm whether I have understood this correctly?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

/edit

Bugger. High res mode uses the electronic shutter, which cannot be used with flash :(

What scenario would you use this for? I'm thinking product/table top shoots? By combining multiple 8 frame images you are effectively getting a long exposure (0.5*8=4 seconds) for each sequence. What about using continuous lights or simply stitching/stacking images together for high rez and negating any sync or recharge issues you might encounter with the Lumix. You would have to use HSS to get that kind of speed, albeit, at a lower output, but Profoto HSS does not support the Lumix...yet. Go with high output continuous lights.

gerald.d
15th April 2019, 06:25
What scenario would you use this for? I'm thinking product/table top shoots? By combining multiple 8 frame images you are effectively getting a long exposure (0.5*8=4 seconds) for each sequence. What about using continuous lights or simply stitching/stacking images together for high rez and negating any sync or recharge issues you might encounter with the Lumix. You would have to use HSS to get that kind of speed, albeit, at a lower output, but Profoto HSS does not support the Lumix...yet. Go with high output continuous lights.

Hi -

Yes, product shots.

But I wouldnít be getting a long exposure because I have zero ambient light (well, effectively zero), so each exposure would only be illuminated by the flash.

Continuous light is an option to explore. I have some LED panels that I can test, but the power just isnít there compared to what the D1ís can output, and am not sure how they would work with the electronic shutter.

I donít need HSS - I just need to have a programmable gap between each of the exposures for the HR stack.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

iiiNelson
15th April 2019, 06:53
Hi -

Yes, product shots.

But I wouldnít be getting a long exposure because I have zero ambient light (well, effectively zero), so each exposure would only be illuminated by the flash.

Continuous light is an option to explore. I have some LED panels that I can test, but the power just isnít there compared to what the D1ís can output, and am not sure how they would work with the electronic shutter.

I donít need HSS - I just need to have a programmable gap between each of the exposures for the HR stack.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

I believe thereís an anti-flicker mode for reducing the potential for banding when using an electronic shutter... but you also have an app thatís can control the camera remotely so that you can stick to mechanical shutter. Continuous lighting is a decent option that many are using more often since there has been several strides made into affordable color stable options.

gerald.d
15th April 2019, 19:12
I believe thereís an anti-flicker mode for reducing the potential for banding when using an electronic shutter... but you also have an app thatís can control the camera remotely so that you can stick to mechanical shutter. Continuous lighting is a decent option that many are using more often since there has been several strides made into affordable color stable options.

Hi -

My understanding from the manual is that high resolution mode forces use of the electronic shutter - mechanical shutter simply is not an option. If it were, then I would have a solution where I could use the strobes by setting a slow shutter speed.

I will certainly try out continuous lighting. I have a Rosco Pro Gaffer's LitePad kit that I've not used since getting my Profoto D1's. Will definitely give it a try.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

iiiNelson
16th April 2019, 08:01
Gordon Laing - Camera Labs Review

https://youtu.be/YCH7k9q4NHE

Outside of his repeated harping of there not being a selfie screen in his camera reviews I generally always enjoy his viewpoints. Even still itís a valid thing to mention for people looking for those types of screens but I donít know that this is the ideal system to vlog with given the size. If a person wanted to conduct interviews and check framing then thereís the very capable LUMIX Sync app or external monitors that can assist in both. To me this is largely a non-issue and if using a lens in the 28mm range or wider, holding the camera at full extension typically will get you a selfie viewpoint without need to critically focus. In any case, itís yet another largely positive review of the camera system which presents another option to strongly take into consideration.

iiiNelson
25th April 2019, 04:31
New firmware released.

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-releases-the-firmware-update-1-1-for-the-s1-and-s1r-cameras/

iiiNelson
27th April 2019, 10:33
DPReview review... overall itís very positive with a few AF quirks for continuous shooting in video.

https://youtu.be/S34Tp7czj74

biglouis
28th April 2019, 08:31
DPReview review... overall it’s very positive with a few AF quirks for continuous shooting in video.

https://youtu.be/S34Tp7czj74

Actually, the review exposes the one flaw in all Panasonic cameras - their proprietary DFD AF system.

I was hoping that perhaps it had got better with these FF models by Nichols seems to confirm that the continuous AF for stills and video is still unreliable in his review.

It was this unreliability which lead to my departure from the Panasonic m43rds system. It was fine for static subjects and I used Panasonic cameras extensively for architectural and urban landscape photography for the best part of 10 years. It was when I tried to use it for wildlife and especially birds in flight that I became aware of how bad DFD was.

It pains me to be negative towards Panasonic cameras in this way because the ergonomics, the sensors and the lenses are very good indeed. But my experience of using them for fast moving subjects was bad enough for me to move systems and Nichols in his review suggests that if action/wildlife is your need then there are more responsive AF systems out there and sadly I agree with him.

LouisB

iiiNelson
28th April 2019, 16:46
Actually, the review exposes the one flaw in all Panasonic cameras - their proprietary DFD AF system.

I was hoping that perhaps it had got better with these FF models by Nichols seems to confirm that the continuous AF for stills and video is still unreliable in his review.

It was this unreliability which lead to my departure from the Panasonic m43rds system. It was fine for static subjects and I used Panasonic cameras extensively for architectural and urban landscape photography for the best part of 10 years. It was when I tried to use it for wildlife and especially birds in flight that I became aware of how bad DFD was.

It pains me to be negative towards Panasonic cameras in this way because the ergonomics, the sensors and the lenses are very good indeed. But my experience of using them for fast moving subjects was bad enough for me to move systems and Nichols in his review suggests that if action/wildlife is your need then there are more responsive AF systems out there and sadly I agree with him.

LouisB

Yeah I sort of agree but until I get one to test for myself it’s kinda hard to make a decision. Many people have extremely positive reviews about them but the AF is the elephant in the room that’s consistently harped on. For professional work a person needs to be able to trust it and Panasonic might need to bite the bullet and use a hybrid PDAF/DFD system in an action camera line.

I really want to LOVE this camera because it checks every box except AF (and an option for the focus direction that can be added in firmware) seemingly for me.

Jorgen Udvang
28th April 2019, 18:02
A comment to Panasonic AF:
It depends on what you shoot. I've used Panasonic cameras for ten years, and since the GH3, I've found AF extremely fast and very precise. However, I rarely shoot bursts and even for moving subjects, I use AF-S. That is possible simply because the AF is so fast with good lenses.

They don't make cameras for sports and action, and I don't think that's their aim. However, they are the only cameras that I've used where I can confidently jam the shutter release through in one go and be reasonably sure that I've got the subject in focus. The best lens for this in my experience is the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, but other MFT high end lenses mostly work fine too.

AF for video. Anybody doing video on anything resembling an advanced level does it manually, and Panasonic knows that. When that is said, I have used AF with Panasonic cameras shooting video, and it works if the scene isn't too complicated. On the other hand, it's not very useful. With video, I have to watch where the focus is anyway, so doing it manually works just as fine.

I agree with Louis though that Panasonic may not be the best cameras for BIF.

dwood
28th April 2019, 18:36
Roger C. at Lensrentals had this to say regarding AF:

"The question I had going in was how well the autofocus would work, and after 1 day I was frustrated with it. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight. Honestly, though, if you arenít willing to do that, donít rent the camera, you wonít be happy."

mjr
28th April 2019, 20:18
Morning

I may be a complete dumb ***, but for me, understanding how a camera really works and how to get the best from it takes a little time, setup with button allocation and all that is normally an hour or so but it can take me weeks of use before I fully understand how different modes work and where a cameras strengths and weaknesses are. I put zero faith in any online first look or "review" as they are very rarely focussed on passing on decent information, much more geared towards revenue and clicks. If one says AF is lacking, then they all jump on the bandwagon.

Personally anyone who has held the camera for a day can't judge how a camera works, but that's maybe just me. This dude has had the camera much longer and states that for stills, the tracking is great, a horse at a decent pace with every shot in focus, sounds ok to me.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPgsw1qiInw not that I'm listening to his opinion either to be honest, it's all noise until I have it in my hand and shooting what I shoot, then I can judge for myself.

I had a day in the UK last week on the way to Iraq, found a store with both bodies and 1 of the kit zooms, body felt really nice in the hand, I like the size but as I couldn't buy the 50 and the 70-200 at that store, I decided it wasn't worth taking the zoom as I know I won't enjoy it so stuck with the GFX this trip. I will pick one up when I next return home in a couple of months.

For those who have one, I hope it meets your expectations and you enjoy using it!

Mat

iiiNelson
28th April 2019, 20:32
AF for video. Anybody doing video on anything resembling an advanced level does it manually, and Panasonic knows that. When that is said, I have used AF with Panasonic cameras shooting video, and it works if the scene isn't too complicated. On the other hand, it's not very useful. With video, I have to watch where the focus is anyway, so doing it manually works just as fine.

I agree with Louis though that Panasonic may not be the best cameras for BIF.

Thatís not 100% true anymore when it comes to people doing event and/or wedding video. Many people expect these types of cameras to have rock solid AF on a gimbal. Few outside of extremely high end videographers are going to have focus pullers. Most are using and relying on rock solid Sony or Canon systems for video. Many love the GH line and use it for many things but they were hoping this camera could solve the video continuous focus. I used to be a single point autofocus shooter (on Autofocus Cameras) until I got the A7RII and saw how high the hit rate was in continuous AF mode even when in single photo drive mode. I rarely shoot burst and donít really care so much about burst speeds in general... it just means Iíll have a crap ton of images to delete. I do care about rock solid continuous focus modes. I care about tracking as an equally important feature. If a camera does neither reliably I canít use it on paid jobs where autofocus is expected. I can use it for my own personal use and thereís a chance that the Panasonic may become a personal system for me if it all doesnít shake out and Iíll invest in a couple of newer generation Sony bodies for actual work. I like a lot about the system for personal use... just done know if I could depend on it long term.

I acknowledge there could be some user one user error in the DPReview video review - which is why I wonít make decisions one way or another until I can get my own hands on it. I know Chris Nichols is primarily a Nikon shooter and approaches his reviews and usability based on whatís second nature for him. That being said I do believe he is mostly fair and honest in his assessments based on his own user experiences. Jordan Drake is a diehard Panasonic GH user and lives them.

biglouis
28th April 2019, 22:52
Roger C. at Lensrentals had this to say regarding AF:

"The question I had going in was how well the autofocus would work, and after 1 day I was frustrated with it. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight. Honestly, though, if you arenít willing to do that, donít rent the camera, you wonít be happy."

All I can say is that I desperately tried every AF tweak, including those in an AF primer published by Panasonic and the net result was pretty much the same. Bird portraits: fantastic; birds in flight: about a 10% keeper rate. My new kit achieves long sequences of in focus images when panning and shooting and I get about 80% keeper rate. Something I rarely saw GH5 or G9.

I have no doubt that for landscapes, portraits, still life and even at a stretch reportage the cameras will be fantastic (my GF1, GH2, GX8, G85, and G9 all were) but without banging on about it, DFD for fast moving subjects is unreliable, imho and you can tinker to your hearts content but it won't make much of a difference.

LouisB

Paratom
29th April 2019, 02:03
All I can say is that I desperately tried every AF tweak, including those in an AF primer published by Panasonic and the net result was pretty much the same. Bird portraits: fantastic; birds in flight: about a 10% keeper rate. My new kit achieves long sequences of in focus images when panning and shooting and I get about 80% keeper rate. Something I rarely saw GH5 or G9.

I have no doubt that for landscapes, portraits, still life and even at a stretch reportage the cameras will be fantastic (my GF1, GH2, GX8, G85, and G9 all were) but without banging on about it, DFD for fast moving subjects is unreliable, imho and you can tinker to your hearts content but it won't make much of a difference.

LouisB

I am not saying the s1r is a sports camera, but so far I am more surprised in the positive direction about the AF.

ptomsu
29th April 2019, 02:06
I actually watched the video from Darryl Carey that Mat thankfully posted earlier (here the link again if you want to find immediately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPgsw1qiInw

and I must say I fully agree with Mat. The S1/S1R seem - by the result od this video do an excellent job WRT AF-C in video as well as in still photo, but this seems to be based on FW1.0.

I fully believe in what Darryl thinks about the S1/S1R - he is a long year Nikon shooter and especially the D850 and it's AF system is one of the best on the market, especially also for AF-C. If he is now selling all his Nikon gear and fully jumping on the Panasonic system that tells me a lot.

The S1R and L-mount lenses are high on my radar, I will definitely loan this gear to test for my purposes and then make a final decision, but from what I have seen and heard so far this system sounds really super as an around hybrid system. I will keep my m43 gear for now (and maybe even for longer) just to have a really small and light travel system, but who knows if I find a somehow similar configuration size wise with the Panasonic L-mount cameras and lenses this even might replace my Olympus for travel purposes. I could see myself being more than happy on casual travel with just the S1R and the kit zoom and when on serious travel for say Safari then weight and size is no longer such a big concern anyway as then most shooting would be done out of car and/or even with tripod for filming.

So here we go, thanks again MAT for this post and to some who do not so much believe in the newer Panasonic (AF) capabilities maybe trying again could help :thumbs:

faberryman
29th April 2019, 03:05
I fully believe in what Darryl thinks about the S1/S1R - he is a long year Nikon shooter and especially the D850 and it's AF system is one of the best on the market, especially also for AF-C. If he is now selling all his Nikon gear and fully jumping on the Panasonic system that tells me a lot.Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two f/4 zooms and a 50mm prime. Maybe in a couple of years when they have their lens line fleshed out. This is just GAS.

iiiNelson
29th April 2019, 04:01
Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two zooms and a 50mm prime.

Maybe he doesnít want a DSLR... maybe he believes more in the direction that Panasonic is going in above Nikon... thereís a lot of obvious (even if subjective) reasons heíd dump his Nikon... especially since he documented the reasons for his own personal use...

Greg Haag
29th April 2019, 04:15
Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two f/4 zooms and a 50mm prime. Maybe in a couple of years when they have their lens line fleshed out. This is just GAS marketing.

I am not sure for him, but for myself, there are 2 things that are important to me that were not an option on the D850 (which I think is an amazing camera and that I believe can do some things better than the S1R). The high resolution mode and the ability to use this on the Cambo Actus. I will not receive my camera until tomorrow so I have not yet seen the high res on my files.

ptomsu
29th April 2019, 04:33
Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two f/4 zooms and a 50mm prime. Maybe in a couple of years when they have their lens line fleshed out. This is just GAS.

Honestly there are plenty of reasons - I don't know the reasons for him but for me the main reasons are that the D850 is primarily designed as a still camera and using it for video is really cumbersome and IMO does not come close to what the S1R offers (AF, EVF, profiles, etc.). Further IBIS as well as High Res mode are some more important reason.

He actually says it quite open somewhere in his video - the D850 is old technology versus the S1R being built around new innovative technology - and this is true also for me - just have a look over the past 5-6 years in several threads here on GetDPI where I was asking and waiting for a mirrorless camera from Nikon. Well it came but too late for me as now I am no longer invested in that Nikon system and can start from scratch. I would have to be crazy to invest today in a Nikon F mount based system :ROTFL: and before investing in the Nikon Z system I definitely am looking carefully around what else is on the market and expected in the future. And WRT Sigma lenses for Nikon - wh in all the world should I buy Sigma lenses and adapt them to what else system if I can soon buy native L-mount Sigma lenses! And by end of this year or next year there will be already more than 40 L-mount lenses available - how many for the Z-mount?

I could go on and on and on ... So it is pretty obvious - battle won and victory declared!

faberryman
29th April 2019, 04:59
I was questioning his rationale for abandoning his Nikon D850 and lenses for the S1R, not yours for buying into it. If I am not mistaken, you are moving from m43 to FF and so have a clean slate.

Jorgen Udvang
29th April 2019, 05:55
That 50mm seems to be one of the best reasons to buy the S1/R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDYT2FZtkok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejy8-bl3QSQ

As for the comparison with the D850... no, there's no 50mm like this available in F-mount, and that viewfinder seems to be really good.

There are good arguments for electronic as well as optical viewfinders. Darry Carey has apparently made his choice. I'm a bit more mixed about this, but I understand his choice. The S1R seems to be an outstanding camera. I'll try it in a few days.

ptomsu
29th April 2019, 08:23
I was questioning his rationale for abandoning his Nikon D850 and lenses for the S1R, not yours for buying into it. If I am not mistaken, you are moving from m43 to FF and so have a clean slate.

Even if I would not move from m43 to FF (which is not a done deal for the moment as I tried to explain - but maybe I was not clear enough) but even if I was invested in any DSLR based FF camera system, the rationals for me would be much the same. So to make it easier - even if I shot a D850 still today and had not bought into Nikon Z till now I could easily see myself moving into the L-mount alliance with a Panasonic S1/S1R. To be even more clear I would not hesitate to sell of all my F-mount glass ASAP as long as I could get some decent money out of this and finance the new L-mount system. I hope that helps :cool:

Paratom
30th April 2019, 07:52
If I didnt have any SL lenses yet I would maybe prefer the Nikon Z6/Z7 way. The size/quality compomise of the Nikon f1.8 primes (35 and 50 and others to come) makes it a more compact and affordable system. Also the 24-70 is a nice compact lens.

I did however decide to stay with the SL/Pana system, because I allready own some really nice lenses, and I find it a little easier to get the color right with the SL/Pana.
Also the S1(r) body really feels substantial in the hand.

Anybody thinking about a complete switch I would recommend to try both systems before buying.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 10:53
If I didnt have any SL lenses yet I would maybe prefer the Nikon Z6/Z7 way. The size/quality compomise of the Nikon f1.8 primes (35 and 50 and others to come) makes it a more compact and affordable system. Also the 24-70 is a nice compact lens.

I did however decide to stay with the SL/Pana system, because I allready own some really nice lenses, and I find it a little easier to get the color right with the SL/Pana.
Also the S1(r) body really feels substantial in the hand.

Anybody thinking about a complete switch I would recommend to try both systems before buying.

Well I did try out the Nikon and Canon systems and I didn’t care greatly for either one. Canon has some compelling lens designs for photographic purposes and uninspired bodies as of today. With the Nikon I didn’t see the advantage over my existing Sony unless you were an existing Nikon user. The lenses are comparatively larger than the Sony lenses due to the wider mount. Depending on which white paper people choose to believe there’s a point of diminishing returns once the mount goes beyond a certain point - as such Leica believe the sweet spot was their 50.6mm diameter... but that’s a discussion for another day. I will say that every system has capable lenses. The Sony lenses rate well on the charts, Leica has earned their reputation, and the same can be said about Canon/Nikon.

I do agree with your point in trying out all of the systems. We all have subjective viewpoints that influence or are influenced by our workflow.

Depending on volume of sales I wouldn’t be surprised to see a price drop on the S1R sooner rather than later. Seems like the A7RIII and now the Z7 are being offered in the $2700 range give or take more frequently than not. I suspect that the S1R will be a harder sale to all except existing L-Mount users when it’s going for $1k more than the competition. I don’t think it’ll be a drastic price cut but I wouldn’t be surprised if within 3-6 months they’re going for $3500 with either a grip and/or spare battery included to sweeten the deal. I’d say lenses were an issue but no one other than Sony has a larger native lens lineup as of today.

faberryman
30th April 2019, 11:00
I’d say lenses were an issue but no one other than Sony has a larger native lens lineup as of today.There are three Panasonic lenses plus the Leica lenses at $5000 a pop. The Sigma L mount lenses aren't available yet. If you are a current SL user looking for a 47MP body for your Leica SL lenses, the the S1R is certainly the choice, at least until the SL2 is announced. Seems like a small niche of photographers until Panasonic develops the lens line. Replacing your current camera system with an S1/S1R seems premature.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 11:21
There are three Panasonic lenses plus the Leica lenses at $5000 a pop. The Sigma L mount lenses aren't available yet. If you are a current SL user looking for a 47MP body for your Leica SL lenses, the the S1R is certainly the choice, at least until the SL2 is announced. Seems like a small niche of photographers until Panasonic develops the lens line. Is there a road map? I may not be following it as closely as I should.

Google is your friend (if you choose to use it) but most of it has all been posted here...

I didn't mention price of lenses for a reason. I think itís a factor in who chooses this system but itís not like the best Canon or Nikon lenses are cheap either. In most cases though the lenses that the pro market will be after are going to be in the $1-3k range... unless you shoot sports and in that case Leica lenses arenít quite so expensive in comparison. Sigma will have 11-14 lenses (with 2-3 being designed exclusively for Mirrorless) by the end of the year but neither Canon or Nikon have the 11-14 lenses already available on L-mount from Leica and Panasonic.

Paratom
30th April 2019, 11:46
Sony has certainly a wide lens product range ready in regards of lenses for mirrorless. They have some years advantage.
On the other side, for my taste, the new bodies from Nikon (Z6/Z7) and Pana (S1(r)) and also the SL balance better with bigger lenses. And with growing resolution lenses seem to become bigger to fulfil the optic requirements.

As a SL user I do like the L-mount alliance. First some Pana lenses can complete the lens line-up (like the 70-200 as a lighter alternative to the 90-280 or also the 24-105 or 50/1.4 (for those who do not yet own the 50 SL lens).

There are not yet that many lenses available, but the ones available seem to be very good optical quality.
Nikon has the advantage to use the older lenses with the adapter in AF mode, but I think in a longer term one wants to use native lenses for the system anyways.

faberryman
30th April 2019, 11:53
Google is your friend (if you choose to use it) but most of it has all been posted here...
Well, I see the f2.8 versions of the existing f4 zooms for 2019, and a super telephoto, a macro, and two unspecified primes for 2020. They don't seem to be in a big hurry. I imagine most will rely on the Sigma L-mount offerings when they become available later this year.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 13:01
Sony has certainly a wide lens product range ready in regards of lenses for mirrorless. They have some years advantage.
On the other side, for my taste, the new bodies from Nikon (Z6/Z7) and Pana (S1(r)) and also the SL balance better with bigger lenses. And with growing resolution lenses seem to become bigger to fulfil the optic requirements.

As a SL user I do like the L-mount alliance. First some Pana lenses can complete the lens line-up (like the 70-200 as a lighter alternative to the 90-280 or also the 24-105 or 50/1.4 (for those who do not yet own the 50 SL lens).

There are not yet that many lenses available, but the ones available seem to be very good optical quality.
Nikon has the advantage to use the older lenses with the adapter in AF mode, but I think in a longer term one wants to use native lenses for the system anyways.

Iím a pretty large person (by conventional measures) and the reason I entertained the thought of the Canon and Nikon Mirrorless cameras was the marketing speak on them being larger cameras. I found that the Nikon is virtually the same size as the Sony cameras without the option for an external battery grip that I use almost exclusively on my Sony bodies. The Canon is a good size but I found that the grip design was one of the worst Iíve ever felt due to the straight lines inside of the grip. FWIW itís the thing I also disliked about the ergonomics (or lack thereof) of the Leica SL. The Panasonic seems to look like it may be the best designed body. Iím not invested in any DSLR system so the requirement to adapt is lost on me right now.

The reality is that I can do most things with the LUMIX S and the 3 lenses they released given the lowlight ability of the S1 and the performance of the lenses. My biggest questions still come down to the AF speed in less than optimal conditions. One of the venues I shoot in can see changing light swing between ISO 2000 and 12800 if you remotely want to try to minimize motion blur on the dance floor. Part of the process to try to get photographs on the lower ISO range include timing focus for when the spot lights are in the area you want to photograph and pre-focusing the area to get in the neighborhood. I wonder if the Panasonic can be relied on to do this or if Iíd need to manually zone focus and go about it that way.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 13:03
Well, I see the f2.8 versions of the existing f4 zooms for 2019, and a super telephoto, a macro, and two unspecified primes for 2020. They don't seem to be in a big hurry. I imagine most will rely on the Sigma L-mount offerings when they become available later this year.

There are also 16-35/4 and teleconverters all by March 2020 if not sooner. I donít know that theyíre relying on Sigma by putting out 10 newly designed lenses within a year.

Paratom
30th April 2019, 13:17
With the 16-35, 24-90, 24-105, 70-200 and 90-280 all being excellent zooms with, a fast 50 either from Pana or Leica, 35/75/90 SL Summicrons one can build a pretty flexible kit. A large range with the zooms, 2 reference fast 50s, 2 good portrait lenses.
But its missing more specialized lenses like fast tele primes, or some faster wide primes for reasonable price.

faberryman
30th April 2019, 13:28
I wonder if the Panasonic can be relied on to do this or if Iíd need to manually zone focus and go about it that way.Only way to know for sure is to rent it and try. Not something I would want to rely on YouTube for.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 13:42
With the 16-35, 24-90, 24-105, 70-200 and 90-280 all being excellent zooms with, a fast 50 either from Pana or Leica, 35/75/90 SL Summicrons one can build a pretty flexible kit. A large range with the zooms, 2 reference fast 50s, 2 good portrait lenses.
But its missing more specialized lenses like fast tele primes, or some faster wide primes for reasonable price.

Yeah id probably stick to Panasonic (and maybe SOME Sigma lenses) with some select Leica lenses thrown in... namely the 35 or 90 APO-Cron... not much else announced or released from Leica interests me personally.

iiiNelson
30th April 2019, 14:56
Only way to know for sure is to rent it and try. Not something I would want to rely on YouTube for.

Well I've said that repeatedly that I will have to rely on my own long term tests... I have nothing against people that make Youtube content. It has its uses. I wonít say that I agree with all of their opinions but itís a frame of reference to consider in making a decision.

faberryman
2nd May 2019, 06:00
For multishot, does the camera combine the four shots into one file or do you rely on your editing program to do that? If the later, does LR Classic CC support that feature?

gerald.d
2nd May 2019, 19:15
For multishot, does the camera combine the four shots into one file or do you rely on your editing program to do that? If the later, does LR Classic CC support that feature?

Itís actually 8 shots, and they are merged to a single RAW in camera.

Kind regards,

Gerald

jdphoto
3rd May 2019, 05:00
How does "Multi shot" work with astro or wind blown branches or leaves?

Oren Grad
3rd May 2019, 08:48
How does "Multi shot" work with astro or wind blown branches or leaves?

There are two different settings for S1/R high-resolution capture, with differences in how the multiple captures are processed to generate the raw file. Mode 1 is said to optimize resolution, while Mode 2 is said to trade off some resolution in order to minimize motion artifacts, but I don't know of any documentation that explains exactly what's different about the processing to achieve that.

So far, Lloyd Chambers is the only reviewer I've seen who has compared the two modes in the field and documented differences in results. He's been looking at things like moving leaves and water, AFAIK hasn't done any astro tests.

gerald.d
3rd May 2019, 18:07
How does "Multi shot" work with astro or wind blown branches or leaves?

I canít imagine it would be particularly useful for astrophotography, not least because the maximum exposure time is 1 second.

jdphoto
3rd May 2019, 18:50
So, with an exposure time of one second, couldn't just simply stitching images together work the same in any camera as the S1's multi shot?

Oren Grad
3rd May 2019, 19:12
So, with an exposure time of one second, couldn't just simply stitching images together work the same in any camera as the S1's multi shot?

No. Stacking multiple exposures from a non-sensor-shift camera can match the noise improvement but not the extra resolution achieved via the shifting sensor of the S1/R. But the one-second limit will place some restrictions on the range of subjects to which you can usefully apply the Panasonic high-resolution mode.

iiiNelson
4th May 2019, 14:40
S1R + MC-21

https://youtu.be/XfWWiXL_Jeo

iiiNelson
7th May 2019, 05:18
DXO Sensor results

S1

https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lumix-s1-sensor-review/

S1R

https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-sensor-review/

Looks like both sensors are performing well (which we already knew/assumed) and are in line on paper with the competition. What Iíve always have been most impressed by is the color performance at higher ISO. These cameras seem to hold color longer and with better results than the competition and the tests mostly validate my assumptions that were based on what Iíve seen from these sensors.

Greg Haag
1st June 2019, 09:40
DXO Sensor results

S1

https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lumix-s1-sensor-review/

S1R

https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-sensor-review/

Looks like both sensors are performing well (which we already knew/assumed) and are in line on paper with the competition. What Iíve always have been most impressed by is the color performance at higher ISO. These cameras seem to hold color longer and with better results than the competition and the tests mostly validate my assumptions that were based on what Iíve seen from these sensors.

What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?

iiiNelson
1st June 2019, 18:01
What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?

Never handled the Fuji but Iíd assume that it would beat the Panasonic. Larger sensor (70% larger), more color depth (16-bit vs 14-bit), more resolution (102 vs. 47). For pure landscape, itíll almost certainly beat any 35mm based system. There a chance the autofocus will be more solid too in continuous tracking.

flash
12th June 2019, 15:56
What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?

If you print big or push your files heavily in post, yes. I can see the difference easily on the current 50mp sensors from my X1D/645Z. The new 100mp sensor is another small step again.

For web or screen viewing it's unlikely you'd see any difference except if you are on the extremes of dynamic range with the S1R.

Gordon

iiiNelson
25th June 2019, 18:11
DPReview S1 Review

https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1-review

Jorgen Udvang
25th June 2019, 18:56
DPReview S1 Review

https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1-review

Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.

ptomsu
25th June 2019, 20:11
Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.

I would be hard pressed to choose between the S1 and the Nikon Z6 especially after the recent FW upgrade on the Nikon that finally enables eye AF. The weakest point in Panasonic cameras is unfortunately still their AF system with DFD - lot of users have complained about this and it seems that it did not get better with the introduction of the S1/S1R. And yes, I am almost always using AFC nowadays - on my Olympus EM1.2 this is always on and never disappoints - so I am expecting similar performance from any other camera I use and this is pretty hard .....

While the S1's EVF has more resolution I am no longer sure I really need that because the Z6 EVF is already more than I could want for - but sure enough, more (MP) is always better.

One of the key use cases for me of a FF mirrorless camera is using my Leica M lenses and from what I have heard the Z6 and Z7 perform marvellously with that lenses, so while the S1 should not disappoint here the slightly more compact size and less weight of the Z series cameras makes for a better overall shooting experience in that case IMO.

WRT that review - I cannot see that it is bad, it is a typical and relatively neutral review from DPReview and the camera scores relatively high.

And yes I have tried both cameras and as I said I would not be sure if I would buy the S1 today or the Z6.

Jorgen Udvang
25th June 2019, 20:26
I only use AF-S with Panasonic cameras. If something moves, I just jam the shutter release through. AF-S is that fast. No, I don't shoot bursts. There's only one decisive moment. Yes, I do miss sometimes, quite often actually, but there are other photos to be taken.

An EVF can never be too good. Most are bad, the one on the S1/R is quite good.

ptomsu
25th June 2019, 23:45
I only use AF-S with Panasonic cameras. If something moves, I just jam the shutter release through. AF-S is that fast. No, I don't shoot bursts. There's only one decisive moment. Yes, I do miss sometimes, quite often actually, but there are other photos to be taken.

An EVF can never be too good. Most are bad, the one on the S1/R is quite good.

Well, as I said already I only (almost) use AFC since I acquired the EM1.2 and with the latest FW 3.0 update it became so fast and reliable that it is a no brainer to use in 98% of my shots.

WRT EVF you are right but I found the Z EVF to be VERY good and the differences be marginal to the S1/S1R.

The main advantage I see in the Z-series is they are built like tanks and still have a size I can call small, BUT also the new S lenses are pretty small compared to their other FF counterparts from Canon, Panasonic and even Sony. As I am getting older weight and size became very important for me and I definitely will not go back to something old school DSLR size. Which the lenses (and also the FF cameras) from Panasonic (and Sigma) tend to show. Yes they are great, superior maybe, but I would not be willing to lug that around anymore, in the Studio yes but then these occasions are meanwhile pretty seldom for me, so I rather prefer the size of the Nikon Z system.

Just have a look at the new Z 2.8/24-70 - this is a comparatively VERY small lens also paired with stellar IQ (several reviews out there) and if that new Z 2.8/70-200 has similar genes then I am hooked. But I am waiting for that new Z 80-400 (not announced yet) that would make my day for wildlife then. And the beautiful small Z 14-30.

So you see where I am coming from and I guess you as an "old" Nikon user can appreciate that :thumbs:

k-hawinkler
26th June 2019, 00:26
Thanks Peter for reminding me of the EM1.2 with the latest FW 3.0 update. :thumbup:
I should use it, now that I have updated the firmware! :facesmack: :shocked:

Jorgen Udvang
26th June 2019, 01:13
Well, as I said already I only (almost) use AFC since I acquired the EM1.2 and with the latest FW 3.0 update it became so fast and reliable that it is a no brainer to use in 98% of my shots.

WRT EVF you are right but I found the Z EVF to be VERY good and the differences be marginal to the S1/S1R.

The main advantage I see in the Z-series is they are built like tanks and still have a size I can call small, BUT also the new S lenses are pretty small compared to their other FF counterparts from Canon, Panasonic and even Sony. As I am getting older weight and size became very important for me and I definitely will not go back to something old school DSLR size. Which the lenses (and also the FF cameras) from Panasonic (and Sigma) tend to show. Yes they are great, superior maybe, but I would not be willing to lug that around anymore, in the Studio yes but then these occasions are meanwhile pretty seldom for me, so I rather prefer the size of the Nikon Z system.

Just have a look at the new Z 2.8/24-70 - this is a comparatively VERY small lens also paired with stellar IQ (several reviews out there) and if that new Z 2.8/70-200 has similar genes then I am hooked. But I am waiting for that new Z 80-400 (not announced yet) that would make my day for wildlife then. And the beautiful small Z 14-30.

So you see where I am coming from and I guess you as an "old" Nikon user can appreciate that :thumbs:

I agree about the size vs. quality of the Nikons. Functionality is good too. For travel, they would be better cameras than the Panasonics, not bigger than my MFT cameras.

iiiNelson
26th June 2019, 04:11
Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.

Best camera ever is rather subjective opinion... but I have no doubt the Panasonic is really good as reflected by the rating. Perhaps there will come a day in the next few years where DFD isnít a compromise but we arenít quite there yet. Itís improved over the LUMIX G Cameras but thereís still a ways to go in the microprocessing and sensor readout speed for that day to come IMO. Iíve heard mixed things about the EVF and I think it comes down to how sensitive a person is to EVFís. I can notice a difference in them but none of them have really bothered me enough to not prefer them over the last 10 years. So I place the EVF in the LUMIX S in the ďnice to haveĒ category. I know itís a key feature for many, I suspect itíll be in most new premium cameras, but itís not a make or break feature for me.

I do care about AF performance for a professional workhorse though and thatís really the only weak point I see in this camera. Everything else is good enough IMO from my viewpoint. I think the review reflected that. When it comes to price thatís a real factor now that the competition has been out for awhile now and that Canon, Nikon, and Sony have better recognition/support. I fear these cameras arenít moving extremely well as Iíve never seen them out of stock or backordered from launch. There was a time where the Sony, Nikon, and even Canon were hard to get for the first 1-6 months without preordering or placing a deposit. I donít want to see Panasonic fail but unless thereís a price cut to the bodies and have more attainable lenses for the masses, I think theyíll suffer from people dipping their toes in the water then have the bodies wind up on eBay or Craigslist. Iíve seen that a lot on groups I frequent where people are judging the camera solely using adapted lenses and never investing into native lenses. The performance is a little underwhelming to the end user then they jump ship to another brand and have a ďrevelation.Ē

In any case though Iím with Peter in that AFC needs to be improved in video. In photography itís probably good enough.

ptomsu
26th June 2019, 11:10
Best camera ever is rather subjective opinion... but I have no doubt the Panasonic is really good as reflected by the rating. Perhaps there will come a day in the next few years where DFD isn’t a compromise but we aren’t quite there yet. It’s improved over the LUMIX G Cameras but there’s still a ways to go in the microprocessing and sensor readout speed for that day to come IMO. I’ve heard mixed things about the EVF and I think it comes down to how sensitive a person is to EVF’s. I can notice a difference in them but none of them have really bothered me enough to not prefer them over the last 10 years. So I place the EVF in the LUMIX S in the “nice to have” category. I know it’s a key feature for many, I suspect it’ll be in most new premium cameras, but it’s not a make or break feature for me.

I do care about AF performance for a professional workhorse though and that’s really the only weak point I see in this camera. Everything else is good enough IMO from my viewpoint. I think the review reflected that. When it comes to price that’s a real factor now that the competition has been out for awhile now and that Canon, Nikon, and Sony have better recognition/support. I fear these cameras aren’t moving extremely well as I’ve never seen them out of stock or backordered from launch. There was a time where the Sony, Nikon, and even Canon were hard to get for the first 1-6 months without preordering or placing a deposit. I don’t want to see Panasonic fail but unless there’s a price cut to the bodies and have more attainable lenses for the masses, I think they’ll suffer from people dipping their toes in the water then have the bodies wind up on eBay or Craigslist. I’ve seen that a lot on groups I frequent where people are judging the camera solely using adapted lenses and never investing into native lenses. The performance is a little underwhelming to the end user then they jump ship to another brand and have a “revelation.”

In any case though I’m with Peter in that AFC needs to be improved in video. In photography it’s probably good enough.

DFD from what I know is equally good in both G series and S series cameras. EVF - nice to have 5.7MP, but I was shooting a Nikon Z6 and Z7 today in a test in Vienna and was pleasantly surprised! These EVFs are light years above the Olympus EM1.2 and EM1.X EVFs and I was never feeling disconnected in any form. I will show photos in the Nikon forum as soon as I manage to get the photos down to my MAC from the XQD card (the card reader I bought does unfortunately not work) but from what I could judge on the EFV and the LCD of the Z7 the results look stunning.

As said the big downside of the Panasonic's are the rather bulky and big size and weight for me (for some that might be a big plus though) and also the whole system (including lenses) is obviously getting heavy and large. I shot the new Nikon S 2.8/24-70 today almost exclusively and the size, weight and whole handling on the Z7 was absolutely great. And the optical quality is obviously second to none.

For me - and maybe only for me as I have not so much money left to jump ships too often in my retirement - from all I know and felt till today the Nikon Z system wins hands down! If I had the money to buy the Panasonic S and lenses and just switch if I do not like what so ever, then this would be my way to go, but from what I know today I put my eggs in the Nikon Z baket :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

iiiNelson
26th June 2019, 17:10
There were several speed improvements made over the years with the LUMIX S. For one there are two quad core processors to do four times as many calculations with the DFD. So in direct comparison the S is much better than the G as the AF calculation frequency is much higher. On the older G Cameras the AF is hot or miss even in photography... in the S itís more reliable but itís no A9 (or even A7RIII) by any means.

In any case though it would probably work for most people but when you're paying a premium id have a hard time definitely choosing it for a workhorse until DFD is further improved to a negligible state of parity personally. We arenít there yet but in time I do believe itíll get there. Hopefully the cameras donít fail commercially before we do though.

Joe Colson
27th June 2019, 06:31
:worthless:

Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

Joe

glenerrolrd
27th June 2019, 10:55
From my perspective there are few real surprises today with the next NEW NEW gear . I had a S1R and used it exclusively with the Leica SL lenses ..mostly with the 50/1.4 SL Summilux . I did not use the pixel shifting multishot as I am not really a landscape /tripod shooter . The image quality produced by the sensor is terrific ..would you expect something different ?

Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

Panasonic has done a good job in setting up the S1R and the files produced have a very linear tone curve . I found them easy to adjust to taste . The more important issue regarding image quality would be ďAre you going to buy the Leica Glass ? ď Its very expensive .

Right now at 47MP FF the S1R with the Leica SL prime lenses is the best available in a FF camera . I also have no doubt that several MF alternatives will be noticeably better .

I sent the S1R back to B&H because I did not enjoy the size, weight,handling,menu system or the very weak AF system ...but I have no doubts about the IQ.

alen
27th June 2019, 16:05
:worthless:

Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

Joe

Hi Joel, ive shared this elsewhere but I read this and thought Id share it here.

I did a very simple test of High Res mode (mode 1), taking a picture of my bookshelf.

NOTE:
1) you may need to open the images in a new tab to view at 100%
2) pay attention to the yellow DK cart label.

Full image:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48140639047_d5872b6a05_o.jpg

100% crop comparison - HiRes vs Normal:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48140639102_826613588e_o.jpg

ptomsu
27th June 2019, 22:19
From my perspective there are few real surprises today with the next NEW NEW gear . I had a S1R and used it exclusively with the Leica SL lenses ..mostly with the 50/1.4 SL Summilux . I did not use the pixel shifting multishot as I am not really a landscape /tripod shooter . The image quality produced by the sensor is terrific ..would you expect something different ?

Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

Panasonic has done a good job in setting up the S1R and the files produced have a very linear tone curve . I found them easy to adjust to taste . The more important issue regarding image quality would be “Are you going to buy the Leica Glass ? “ Its very expensive .

Right now at 47MP FF the S1R with the Leica SL prime lenses is the best available in a FF camera . I also have no doubt that several MF alternatives will be noticeably better .

I sent the S1R back to B&H because I did not enjoy the size, weight,handling,menu system or the very weak AF system ...but I have no doubts about the IQ.

Roger,

would be interested why you call the AF system very weak - have similar thoughts but would like to know your view!

And how you would compare it to the AF of the Z7 - which I find quite good since the latest FW update.

Thanks

Peter

glenerrolrd
28th June 2019, 03:29
My perspective on the S1R AF is based on expectations of the ďbest of the best ď .

Focus Tracking -- completely inadequate compared to a D850 or D5 . Essentially as expected for a CDAF system .

Eye Auto Focus -- S1R has facial recognition but not eye AF .

The S1R AF is fast and accurate on static subjects ...so it depends on your requirements and expectations . Of course we worked around AF limitations for years and with practice and good technique . For many sports you can predict the desired plan of focus and guess ..but if you want dozens of sharp captures to choose from you need the type of AF system Nikon and Canon use .

Eye AF is new to me but highly desirable for capturing fast moving grandkids .

The S1R was built to be an all purpose , durable and expensive tool . It is loaded with features beyond my needs and desire to learn . It just doesn t fit as a special purpose full size FF camera for me . I would rather use MF for situations I can best control and where IQ is more important than size and weight . Or the M10 for street and travel . (the only limit on the M10 is me but I haven t found a way to buy more endurance ,speed and motivation ...although I keep trying ?)

But like most I don t follow a rigid ďpurpose driven ď approach in selecting gear and will probably end up with a Leica SL2 which I doubt will have a AF any different from the S1R .

Paratom
28th June 2019, 05:37
:worthless:

Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

Joe

There is an image thread with s1/s1r images.
I am quite happy with it, I also got used to the size, specially since the lenses are not small either.

JoelM
28th June 2019, 06:43
Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

So, I agree with the first statement wholly. Leica hasn't had a lens signature in a LONG time and that is one of the reasons I left Leica after 42 years. I actually have one Leica lens left that I use on the Sony cameras and it is a 1964 Tele Elmarit that is stunning. I've done side by side comparisons with the ASPH 90mm Summicron and sharpness and contrast are equal but rendering is much more to my taste with the TE. I believe that with modern cameras and lenses, the camera manipulation of the image, with the knowledge of the lens being used, is more a factor than the actual lens itself. The software is a major player in the "Leica look". They have gone to the way of the other manufacturer's style by focusing (;)) lens design entirely around image sharpness and bokeh. If you've ever read some of the earlier Leica books, 1970s to 1990s, they explain what the Leica lens designers are aiming for. They were taking a round lens, to get a 3 dimensional image and display it as a rectangle in 2 dimensions.

Ah, sorry about the rant. I'm not angry, just reporting my view of a time lost.

Cheers,

Joel

glenerrolrd
28th June 2019, 08:58
I guess we will just have to disagree . My conclusions are based on using Leica lenses on a variety of different cameras /sensors . Some Leica lenses have stronger signatures and are more easily identified . Example Leica R 80/1.4 .

As newer lenses begin to reach perfection levels in edge to edge sharpness ..its harder . However if you compared the 120/2.5 S lens with the 100/2 S (as we did yesterday ) you can see a very clear difference in contrast, color saturation and bokeh . These differences are clear on both a Leica S 006 CCD and the S 007 CMOS ..very different sensor designs and tuning by Leica /Adobe .

Lens design has reached a point where the ability to render fine detail is not a major differentiating factor . Having spent a ridiculous amount of time on this subject ....you have to look closely at attributes beyond sharpness.

As a more frequently encountered comparison ..look at any Zeiss lens compared to a Nikon or Canon lens .

Joe Colson
28th June 2019, 10:26
There is an image thread with s1/s1r images.
I am quite happy with it, I also got used to the size, specially since the lenses are not small either.

I'm aware of the "Fun with..." thread with only 35 posts and a few photos, many from you. I'm just surprised that a thread on "General thoughts..." now encompasses 5 pages and 226 posts, with very few photos. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll let you talk amongst yourselves. I'm watching from a safe distance. ;)

Joe

iiiNelson
29th June 2019, 18:33
I'm aware of the "Fun with..." thread with only 35 posts and a few photos, many from you. I'm just surprised that a thread on "General thoughts..." now encompasses 5 pages and 226 posts, with very few photos. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll let you talk amongst yourselves. I'm watching from a safe distance. ;)

Joe

I canít speak for others, only myself. I have/had great interest in this system but decided against purchasing anything until the fall. I want to see what Sony does next as Iím still financially invested into that ecosystem. The S1 likely comes up a bit short in some key areas for my uses (reliable AF-C) but I really like the design ethos of it overall. Iím still awaiting what improvements are made in the time being and how the other lenses from panasonic perform and what gets announced next. So in short Iím posting because there remains a level of interest in this system for me but Sony introducing a few things with their next bodies (larger size for when using ďproĒ lenses namely along with a few nice to haves like 4K120) would likely push me to just upgrade my existing bodies and forget about Panasonic for now.

iiiNelson
1st July 2019, 08:30
Firmware Updates

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/panasonic-releases-firmware-update-programs-for-the-lumix-s1r-s1-gh5-gh5s-g9-g90g91g95-g80g81g85-and-gx9-300878134.html

iiiNelson
6th July 2019, 06:06
Tests with the version 1.1 firmware.

https://youtu.be/_7gJpT6znAs

ptomsu
6th July 2019, 06:17
I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

So simple some things can turn out :thumbs:;):cool:

Just some samples from the Z7 just to prove how wonderful that camera renders the last one's in this thread, from now under Nikon

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48212870807_2004db2ab4_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gspyMe)2019-06-26_0152.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gspyMe) by ptomsu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_tomsu_photography/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48212870427_d1d2ed4705_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gspyEF)2019-06-26_0078.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gspyEF) by ptomsu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_tomsu_photography/), on Flickr

iiiNelson
6th July 2019, 06:36
I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

So simple some things can turn out :thumbs:;):cool:

Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.

Whenever i tried the Z cameras (3 times so far) I found them to be nearly the same size as my Sony cameras without the possibility to add a grip. This was a turnoff for me personally as I already own the Sony and was curious if there was anything to the people that stated it was “so much more comfortable to hold.” Its slightly larger yes but my ring finger and pinky still hang off the camera like they do aim the Sony without a grip.

I agree that the EVF is good enough on most cameras but I also felt the raving over the Leica SL EVF was overblown too. I could see a difference for sure but it wasn’t night and day for me personally. It didn’t make me magically decide that I could finally move to an EVF... I decided that more than 10 years ago that they were getting to be good enough, though they’re certainly better now.

Lastly, I appreciate the added size of the Panasonic but truthfully I didn’t switch to Mirrorless solely for size concerns. It was a factor in a sense for Micro 4/3 and the travel I did back then but I switched to Mirrorless because I though (correctly) that it was the future and presented a wealth of benefits to my own workflow. Again battery life wasn’t a concern for me and many of the arguments people had made against Mirrorless weren’t factors for me. I just made the options work. I have different needs/desires now but for travel I’m still good with say a Micro 4/3 or APS-C camera. If I switch from Sony the only options I’ll likely consider (still) are Fuji or Panasonic... Canon is a distant possibility depending on how their Mirrorless “1Dx” turns out. I didn’t really care for the Nikon personally (its a me thing more than the camera itself) but it’s “fine” for others.

ptomsu
6th July 2019, 10:42
Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.



After trying the Z7 I doubt that "ANY" camera can produce these results. What I showed are the full images, but you can crop in on the Z7 and there is still all that detail at 100% and also at higher ISO there is no noise. This could be only achieved with a Sony A7RIII, a Nikon D850 or maybe a Panasonic S1R, if the right lenses are available and used.

And this shows the whole issue

1) the A7RIII would b e too small for my taste while a decent native 2.8/24-70 lens would be available
2) the D850 as a camera would be able to achieve such results, but definitely not the even latest F-mount 2.8/24-70
3) The Panasonic S1R - if such a lens existed could maybe do that BUT

a) this lens is not even available today
b) the S1R - as I pointed out while being for sure a capable camera - is definitely not for me - not from size, not from weight and not from the operability

So what remains (for now) is the Z7 - for me at least .....

iiiNelson
6th July 2019, 17:49
Updated video

https://youtu.be/8k3a7LNe0Mw

ptomsu
7th July 2019, 05:05
Updated video

https://youtu.be/8k3a7LNe0Mw

I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews :cry:

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

iiiNelson
8th July 2019, 01:38
I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews :cry:

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I donít think thereís anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 wouldíve been a direct comparison. Itís worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isnít worth complaining about how they display data. Iíd argue the Panasonic is ďcleanerĒ to me but either works.

Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more ďCanon likeĒ in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but itís not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.

ptomsu
8th July 2019, 04:24
Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I donít think thereís anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 wouldíve been a direct comparison. Itís worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isnít worth complaining about how they display data. Iíd argue the Panasonic is ďcleanerĒ to me but either works.

Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more ďCanon likeĒ in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but itís not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.

Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.

jdphoto
8th July 2019, 04:36
Peter,
I too, opted for the Z7 over the S1/r because of lenses and size. The Z7 is also imo, the best for adapting any lens because of the specs. Nikon's S lenses are the best i've used in any camera...including Leica.

iiiNelson
8th July 2019, 06:32
Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.

Maybe, but Iím not trying to convince you one way or another.

If you feel most comfortable with the Z7 then go with it and donít look back. The Panasonic isnít going to get any smaller and OSPDAF isnít going to come from a firmware update if you feel you need it. Iím sure the Sigma lenses will be large too and you seem to be adverse to using large lenses. Personally Iíd just sell the Leica M lenses you donít see yourself using and buy into the Z ecosystem. No need to continue looking if the Z already meets what you want from a camera IMO. Nothing wrong with choosing what you like or what works for you.

Personally im still waiting until the Fall before I make any decisions. Sony (hopefully) wouldíve announced the A9II and A7SIII by then so I can make a more informed decision in either direction. Fuji May have reduced the price on the GFX50S further by then as well. Time will tell but thatís what my decision will be based on.

Paratom
9th July 2019, 06:28
I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews :cry:

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

For me both the 24-105 Pana and also the Leica 24-90 are excellent midrangezooms, even though not with a constant f2.8, but then with a very useful range.
The Nikon Z is certainly much smaller body, eventhough I would say as soon as you use larger lenses the s1(r) offers a more stable grip in my hands. The 35 and 50 Z-Nikons are "bargains" compared to the Leica counterparts IMO. Then right now there are not many Z lenses available, but I bet there will follow more soon.
Where I experienced differences between the Z6/7 and the Panasonic are colors. I still feel to see that typical yellowish Nikon color sometimes in greens and also sometimes in skintones. Overall I feel I can get faster colors to my taste with the Panasonic. Probably a matter of taste and postprocessing skills.

For my part I finally stayed with the S1r because I allready owned some SL-lenses which I really like and I love the flexibility to be able to also use other Leica lenses (CL/M/S), plus I really like those Leica SL lenses, even though they are quite high priced.
I must say that on the other side the Z-system has a lot positive things, specially the size of the body, the 24-70/4.0 is a super compact FF-combo, the AF is fast, the 35 and 50 are very good IMO.

iiiNelson
13th July 2019, 06:02
Additional tests and thoughts on the new firmware v1.2.

https://youtu.be/CphwVNgX32s

ron787
24th July 2019, 15:53
I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?
Hello,
I'm not sure how old this post is, but I thought that I would make a brief note in re the S1r. I'd been a Leica SL user, as well as a Sony A7rIII and Fuji GFX 50s user and so on, for a an unhappy interval, until the Panasonic S1r came along. While I still own the A7rIIIósold the othersóand a bunch of GM lenses, the cameraótoo smallóis rarely used nowadays. The S1r, on the other hand, is my favorite. Why? Ergonomics, analog controls (lots of dedicated and programmable buttons and levers) IBIS, and most of all its stunning IQ. So from my perspective, the S1r is beyond intriguing, and approaches nirvana.

biglouis
16th August 2019, 06:21
I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.



I doubt it. As I mentioned in my analysis above - and also as revealed in the full Dpreview test which is now up - DFD is poor for any kind of action/sports/wildlife photography. Not that I am in the market for one but I'd definitely choose the Z7 over either of the S1x cameras if I needed to photograph things which go fast.

LouisB

ptomsu
16th August 2019, 09:24
I doubt it. As I mentioned in my analysis above - and also as revealed in the full Dpreview test which is now up - DFD is poor for any kind of action/sports/wildlife photography. Not that I am in the market for one but I'd definitely choose the Z7 over either of the S1x cameras if I needed to photograph things which go fast.

LouisB

Lous,

thanks so much for these thoughts and experiences! It helps me indeed very much!

originally I was thinking to buy a S1R in order to use my M glass. As I learned from Jono Slack in another thread and also from direct conversations with him there is definitely a big difference in shooting M lenses on a Leica M or a Leica SL compared to a S1/S1R. Now the S1 and S1R are ruled out for me for the use of M lenses.

Would I like to shoot a S1R for all my FF needs with AF? After your experiences with DFD I would definitely no longer prefer that, especially since the potential additional benefit of using it for M lenses evaporated. So NO, the S1/S1R are not for me and what I want to achieve.

I could try the Nikon Z cameras but after thinking about that for a while now I may very well take distance form that thought as I believe in the fact that M lenses are best fitting to a Leica M body. There are already some used and demo M10's arriving on the market, so the M becomes also a financially more viable option.

For sports and action I hardly need and want FF which means I am more than optimally positions with my Olympus PRO gear :thumbup: and a used Leica M10 or M10P.

So now you understand what you really helped me with your experiences and your answers :thumbs:

Many thanks again!

Paratom
16th August 2019, 12:11
Hi Peter,
sounds like m43 for speed and tele and M10 for fun and "puristic" photography could work for you.
Tom

jrp
16th August 2019, 13:00
As several answers above attest, the main difference is in the lenses. While I have a stash of old Nikkors, they don't play in the same league as the SL lenses, unfortunately, so my £$ goes to Panasonic rather than Nikon. The position would change if I was to use the longer Nikkors, in particular, more. but the conventional wide-angle to 90mm does me fine for the mostpart. You must really know that you are going to use it, if you take the 200mm f2 VR Nikkor.

iiiNelson
18th August 2019, 22:08
Lous,

thanks so much for these thoughts and experiences! It helps me indeed very much!

originally I was thinking to buy a S1R in order to use my M glass. As I learned from Jono Slack in another thread and also from direct conversations with him there is definitely a big difference in shooting M lenses on a Leica M or a Leica SL compared to a S1/S1R. Now the S1 and S1R are ruled out for me for the use of M lenses.

Would I like to shoot a S1R for all my FF needs with AF? After your experiences with DFD I would definitely no longer prefer that, especially since the potential additional benefit of using it for M lenses evaporated. So NO, the S1/S1R are not for me and what I want to achieve.

I could try the Nikon Z cameras but after thinking about that for a while now I may very well take distance form that thought as I believe in the fact that M lenses are best fitting to a Leica M body. There are already some used and demo M10's arriving on the market, so the M becomes also a financially more viable option.

For sports and action I hardly need and want FF which means I am more than optimally positions with my Olympus PRO gear :thumbup: and a used Leica M10 or M10P.

So now you understand what you really helped me with your experiences and your answers :thumbs:

Many thanks again!

Seems like the logical question to ask yourself is do you want AF, are lenses available on the systems that you want to shoot, and how much do you really miss the M lenses being that theyíve sat for years now without a M camera... Iím not attempting to persuade you one way or another but you keep coming back to the Nikon Z and the M lenses. Theyíre pretty much on the opposite side of the spectrum and many of the newest lenses are close enough to the newest Leica lenses... the Mandler lenses are a completely different situation but as I said previously - try out YOUR lenses for yourself on the Nikon and see if it meets YOUR expectations of acceptable performance. Iíve read a lot of tests that were all over the place regarding M lenses on Mirrorless and as far as Leica lenses go many were accurate but not all. Itís not JUST about cover glass, focal length, or software corrections though all three can play a major part in the equation. The fact is that each person needs to try the combos for themselves.

Joe Colson
19th August 2019, 03:56
Cost of entry just got cheaper by $700 USD:

http://www.joecolsonphotography.com/photos/Screen%20Shot%202019-08-19%20at%207.52.43%20AM.png

Competition in this space is fierce.

Joe

Speedgraphic
5th October 2019, 07:42
Well I have an S1R, 50mm 1.4 Pro, and Siggy 70 ART Macro (actually in EF mount with the adapter) coming my way next week. I bought it all used like new save for the Siggy. The new MSRP is really too high, especially on the 50. Though I guess I can rest easy in the knowledge that someone at Leica said "ok sure!" and they engraved it on the lens. :ROTFL: I thought about getting the Sigma 50, but I wanted all the AF performance I can get. If they nail the eye AF and face tracking it'll be worth the price of admission.

It's going to be a work camera for me. Some wedding and portrait stuff plus a ton of scanning of all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The combination of the Sigma 70mm which is a world class macro and pixel shift is I think going to give drum scanning a run for it's money. I should be able to make a file from a 4x5 or 8x10 piece of film that can match a 40" Epson printer, and at the end of the day who is really going bigger than that? No one I've encountered yet.

I don't know what attracted me to the Panny. Logic says I should have considered the Sony A7R4, but I've owned some Sonys before and I just didn't get along with them all that well. Plus you need Image Edge to process the pixel shift files, a non starter for me.

I'm likely going to be dumping my current Nikon kit as well as a Pentax K-1 II kit. I'll be keeping my Pentax FA Limiteds for my film camera of course, and the Panasonic. When wedding season starts up again next Spring I'll look into something simple that will work well with flash at receptions I suppose. Nothing a used D750 can't handle with a 1.8G lens. It's really just IR AF that keeps me shooting Nikon. I don't care how many minus-EVs the AF system says it can do, when you need to freeze a dancing couple there is nothing like IR AF.

iiiNelson
5th October 2019, 12:15
Well I have an S1R, 50mm 1.4 Pro, and Siggy 70 ART Macro (actually in EF mount with the adapter) coming my way next week. I bought it all used like new save for the Siggy. The new MSRP is really too high, especially on the 50. Though I guess I can rest easy in the knowledge that someone at Leica said "ok sure!" and they engraved it on the lens. :ROTFL: I thought about getting the Sigma 50, but I wanted all the AF performance I can get. If they nail the eye AF and face tracking it'll be worth the price of admission.

It's going to be a work camera for me. Some wedding and portrait stuff plus a ton of scanning of all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The combination of the Sigma 70mm which is a world class macro and pixel shift is I think going to give drum scanning a run for it's money. I should be able to make a file from a 4x5 or 8x10 piece of film that can match a 40" Epson printer, and at the end of the day who is really going bigger than that? No one I've encountered yet.

I don't know what attracted me to the Panny. Logic says I should have considered the Sony A7R4, but I've owned some Sonys before and I just didn't get along with them all that well. Plus you need Image Edge to process the pixel shift files, a non starter for me.

I'm likely going to be dumping my current Nikon kit as well as a Pentax K-1 II kit. I'll be keeping my Pentax FA Limiteds for my film camera of course, and the Panasonic. When wedding season starts up again next Spring I'll look into something simple that will work well with flash at receptions I suppose. Nothing a used D750 can't handle with a 1.8G lens. It's really just IR AF that keeps me shooting Nikon. I don't care how many minus-EVs the AF system says it can do, when you need to freeze a dancing couple there is nothing like IR AF.

Itís nice to hear user experiences and I was considering getting the Panasonicís to replace my Sony kit... but with all of the AF disclaimers Iíve rethought it. I do believe that DFD will get to the point where it doesnít matter if a person uses DFD or a hybrid PDAF system once the processing power significantly increases. At that point I will strongly consider the Panasonic... especially if Sony refuses to offer a larger body style. I seemingly love EVERYTHING about the IQ coming from the LUMIX S (mainly the way the color reproduction fidelity holds even in high ISO shots and access to the Leica APO-Summicron lenses to go alongside the Panasonic zooms) and I can see the pairing of a S1R and S1H being a perfect kit for me quite possibly.