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Thread: Negative feedback!!!

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Negative feedback!!!

    There should be a thread for leaving negative feedback to those sellers or buyers!!!
    Here is mine....

    The origin B&S link:
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21891

    I was very pleased with the transaction with Ivo, until I opened the parcel. It definitely was not as described. It was described as "MINT" and you can judge it yourself with those pictures I attached. I don't mind those minor paint loss on the lens body and even the scuff on the rear side of barrel BUT not for those BIG SCRATCHES on the inner side of anterior element.(pic D35_03.jpg-D35_05.jpg)

    When contacting Ivo about the return, here were the responses I have gotten:

    Jor I'm sorry about that but I can't accept the return. I described the lens with photos and I didn't see any scratches on the optics at the time. I'm not telling that they are not there but I didn't noticed and we did the deal without anymore questions. With the price I sold it you won't get any better than that one too in my opinion.

    Another problem is that as you are located outsideof EU I'd have to pay something like 30% of the price when it arrives to our customs... So this is not right and fair.

    If you are not happy with the lens you can sell it for the price you bought it to me without problems as it was a great price.

    I'm sorry again but I can't be responsable for that return when we are dealing items with many years and no warranty.

    Hope you understand.

    Regards,
    Ivo


    I can not in good conscious recommend this member to anyone.
    If Ivo wishes to contact me about this again and we can come to a resolution I would be willing to revisit this recommendation.










  2. #2
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Those are pretty major flaws. It is the responsibility of the seller to make full disclosure on the listing and it looks like that was not done here.
    I have been very happy in buying and selling here and felt that there was a high respect among members. I'm now disappointed to hear of this.

  3. #3
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Agree on that suggestion. We should disclose the particular of the problematic seller so that other forumers will not face similar situation. However, before we proceed on this, let's give the seller a chance to defend and explain himself.
    Last edited by bkling; 8th February 2011 at 08:43.

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I agree and under the circumstances he being in the EU that a least he should refund
    some cash back to the buyer..George

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    Member Chunin's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I don't know what is the solution but the seller is definitely a crook and a big one. I feel your pain.

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Uggghhh...I have had that happen in the past and besides sending some thugs to his home there isnt much that can be done. Unless, you have the funds to fly over and see him in person, I have ownly heard of that happening and it was over 20k of video equipment.

    The joys of the internet!

    Best of luck with your return!

  7. #7
    Member Farnz's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    That damage is unacceptable, the lens is clearly not mint as it was described and the damage is not visible in the seller's photos from the angle they were taken.

    Enlarging the seller's photos on screen makes one of the scratches visible but from the photo it could easily be mistaken for a reflection from an internal surface because the scratch is curved.

    Sorry that you've had this problem and I hope the seller refunds your money if only to save his reputation on this and other forums.

    Pete.

  8. #8
    Member Chunin's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    If paid with paypal file a claim even though it would not help much. If you funded with your credit card call your credit card company and file a dispute for a charge back. That is your only option. Hope you used your credit card and you will be fine. Let him deal with paypal later.

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Agree with Pete. There is no way that you can call such a condition as mint. Hope the seller is decent enough to refund buyer at least partially if not willing to take return because of high cost of customs duty.

  10. #10
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I think any reasonable person looking at the photos posted on the original B&S post would agree that the photos do not accurately depict the item for sale and that the written description is inconsistent with reality. I would consider this as fraudulent. The seller said nothing about returns but also did not say "as is" either. To the extent there is an implied warranty of truthfulness (I am not an EC lawyer), there may be a legal problem for him. His response is dodgy as well. There is no way the lens could be sold as "mint" by a honest person, so what he is really saying is "no big deal, just foist it off on someone else."

    I would hope that Mr Ivo reads this thread and has a change of mind and issues a refund. If he does not, I would be in favor of banning him from further participation as this B&S is so valuable because it is seen as a trustworthy place with trustworthy participants, as opposed to a "caveat emptor" marketplace.
    Alan

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    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  11. #11
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by weinschela View Post
    I think any reasonable person looking at the photos posted on the original B&S post would agree that the photos do not accurately depict the item for sale and that the written description is inconsistent with reality. I would consider this as fraudulent. The seller said nothing about returns but also did not say "as is" either. To the extent there is an implied warranty of truthfulness (I am not an EC lawyer), there may be a legal problem for him. His response is dodgy as well. There is no way the lens could be sold as "mint" by a honest person, so what he is really saying is "no big deal, just foist it off on someone else."

    I would hope that Mr Ivo reads this thread and has a change of mind and issues a refund. If he does not, I would be in favor of banning him from further participation as this B&S is so valuable because it is seen as a trustworthy place with trustworthy participants, as opposed to a "caveat emptor" marketplace.
    ++1

    Total refund is in order here. Ivo (Lazzaros) places a lot of gear for sale on this and the RFF classifieds and should be able to accurately describe equipment.

    I certainly would not do business with this individual unless this issue is resolved.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    The presence of the customs duty should make one MORE likely to assess their gear honestly, not LESS willing to take it back.
    I have looked at Ivo's gear.
    Matter of fact, I was interested in this piece.
    I'll be watching what happens here, and not opening Ivo's ads until this gets refunded.
    Michael

    Leica and Canon

  13. #13
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Compare this ad with others which go to some pains to indicate small cosmetic marks on things they're selling. Not only was the description misleading (to say the least), but it appears that the photos were shot to hide the defects in the lens.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Now that this post has become a sticky, this will help with who not to deal with.

    Note to self - As this is probably going to be a much shorter list than the positives, better not get myself onto this list (it'll stand out like a sore thumb).
    Scott

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Why he should pay CUSTOMS?

    He should inform local Customs Office, that this is HIS lens, that is coming back to him from person, who took it to States.
    And now is sending it back.

    BTW: I saw it is norm on EU eBay, that people add statement, that sale is private and no returns. They also very frequently just give general pictures too, for sure not showing all details.

  16. #16
    Member t.s.k.'s Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Wow, stickified !
    I'm not here to pile it on although I agree with everyone here.
    I just thought the circumstances stated in the original sale ad was a bit odd.
    Maybe not a blood-red flag, but at the very least orange, no?

    Here's to hoping for a good outcome.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Lazzaros's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Jor I thought we talked about the situation and I explained myself to you. By the way you could inform me about this post to give me a chance to explain.

    As I think all of you can see, I took pictures and I never hide the look of the equipment I sell. I didn't see the scratches and I wouldn't tell that the lens was in mint condition if I saw them. I'm not here to cheat anyone since I'm selling many items all the time.

    We are all humans and a mistake can happen but I explained I can't refund the money and get the lens back. I would pay something like 30% of the lens value (and our customs go to ebay to check prices if they want) and I can't do anything about that. I can say it is my lens and they don't care...

    I already told to Jor that I'll try to get a buyer for the lens inside my contacts.

    What I think that is totally unfair is that I already sold dozens of items and I never got any positive word... When one deal goes wrong everyone likes to say something even when they don't know the person...

  18. #18
    Senior Member Lazzaros's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Compare this ad with others which go to some pains to indicate small cosmetic marks on things they're selling. Not only was the description misleading (to say the least), but it appears that the photos were shot to hide the defects in the lens.

    This is amazing! I do ALL my pictures on that wood table with the same light to all my adds! You are guessing things and you are not helping anyone. You are judging me with no reason and I don't allow that...


    The situation here is between me and Jor and people could comment to help in some situations but when I see comments like this one I want to stop using this forum right away...

  19. #19
    Senior Member Don Hutton's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzaros View Post
    We are all humans and a mistake can happen but I explained I can't refund the money and get the lens back. I would pay something like 30% of the lens value (and our customs go to ebay to check prices if they want) and I can't do anything about that. I can say it is my lens and they don't care...
    It's your "mistake" and your problem - if you lose 30% on the deal on a return and refund, it is your problem 100% and that is the price you need to pay for your mistake. It is absolutely not your counterparty's problem. If you have any honour, you'll do the right thing - have him return the lens and give him back ALL of his money. Where you end up money wise is your fault for not examining the lens carefully enough and not describing it remotely accurately (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here too)....
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  20. #20
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I wanted to buy that lens too but changed my mind. Then one or two weeks later I changed my mind again and was asking Ivo if he still has the lens for sale. I was too late, but he sold me his second one which I received recently in a very good shape (no scratches on the glass, just some minor on the body). All in all a great deal with great communication...

  21. #21
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Lazzaros,

    With all due respect, I've seen your ads here and you seem like a good person in general to deal with. Your pictures have always been on that table with same lighting and everything else.

    The problem here is that you have not done a thorough inspection of the lens before selling. Yes, the buyer has some responsibiity to ask more questions to make sure of the condition, but you as a seller also has the responsibility to thoroughly inspect and describe the lens. I will go out on a limb and assume that the buyer trusted your description of Mint because like you said, you sold may things here with no issues.

    In the end, I think the main responsibility lies with you the seller for incorrectly describing the condition of the lens, and very small in part by the buyer for not asking for more detailed pictures.

    I hope that you can get this sorted out so that you do not leave a bad reputation on this forum... I liked your selection of lenses for sale.
    Scott
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Lazzaros's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Scott you are right and I assume that.

    I explained that to Jor on that email when I said that the scratches could be there but I didn't see them. I never used the lens and I only had it in my hand to do the pictures. I assume that I didn't noticed the scratches when I inspected the lens. Maybe I should wait till the daylight to see it better as I looked inside the lens and I didn't see them.

    The picture itself doesn't show the scratches and I thought everything was ok.

    What I think it is unfair is people judging instead of trying to help as you did.

    Regards

  23. #23
    Senior Member mathomas's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzaros View Post
    Jor I thought we talked about the situation and I explained myself to you. By the way you could inform me about this post to give me a chance to explain.

    As I think all of you can see, I took pictures and I never hide the look of the equipment I sell. I didn't see the scratches and I wouldn't tell that the lens was in mint condition if I saw them. I'm not here to cheat anyone since I'm selling many items all the time.

    We are all humans and a mistake can happen but I explained I can't refund the money and get the lens back. I would pay something like 30% of the lens value (and our customs go to ebay to check prices if they want) and I can't do anything about that. I can say it is my lens and they don't care...

    I already told to Jor that I'll try to get a buyer for the lens inside my contacts.

    What I think that is totally unfair is that I already sold dozens of items and I never got any positive word... When one deal goes wrong everyone likes to say something even when they don't know the person...

    It's unfortunate that you didn't get positive feedbacks for your good transactions. I know you have sold lots of stuff here.

    However, that is not at issue here. On this transaction, the scratches on the lens element were only one condition issue (the worst one). But additionally, the body of the lens has plenty of paint missing, and even one place that looks like a dent. This cannot be described as "mint".

    As English is not your first language, perhaps you don't know the definition of "mint":

    Definition (5) from dictionary.com:

    "unused or appearing to be newly made and never used: a book in mint condition."

    (I present this definition with sincerity, not to be mean).

    Photos of the lens by the buyer indicate that the lens is clearly not "mint". I hope you agree now that you know the definition. If someone honestly describes an item as "mint" there should be no additional questions to ask, regarding its condition.

    The standards here are high (and we obviously like it that way). You have sold a lot of interesting items here. I hope you can continue to do so, but being defensive in this particular instance will not get you the good will of the members.

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    +1

  25. #25
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I would have to be beyond blind to say that you can not notice the mark on the optics or the body. There is no way you can miss it. It is totally dishonest to say the least. And you are trying to find a buyer for the lens, come on! Now you need to con someone else to do that? I don't think the original buyer is going to participate in that. And should not. That lens inthe current condition is not worth 30%. Forget the positives of the previous sales. Only when things go wrong, you can see the real character of a person. Only then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzaros View Post
    Jor I thought we talked about the situation and I explained myself to you. By the way you could inform me about this post to give me a chance to explain.

    As I think all of you can see, I took pictures and I never hide the look of the equipment I sell. I didn't see the scratches and I wouldn't tell that the lens was in mint condition if I saw them. I'm not here to cheat anyone since I'm selling many items all the time.

    We are all humans and a mistake can happen but I explained I can't refund the money and get the lens back. I would pay something like 30% of the lens value (and our customs go to ebay to check prices if they want) and I can't do anything about that. I can say it is my lens and they don't care...

    I already told to Jor that I'll try to get a buyer for the lens inside my contacts.

    What I think that is totally unfair is that I already sold dozens of items and I never got any positive word... When one deal goes wrong everyone likes to say something even when they don't know the person...

  26. #26
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    If you take action on this quickly, I think that opinions will change. If you wait to help the buyer or if you do nothing, it will only make things worse.
    Best to find a solution with the buyer.
    Chris

  27. #27
    Member Farnz's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    +1

  28. #28
    Senior Member Lazzaros's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Chinin I already saw your character and I never bought anything from you.


    Mike thanks for the definition. The lens has that little marks (in the pictures they look 10 times bigger as I think you know) and looking for the lens in general they were too small to influence my description. I assume that maybe I need to be more specific in the description but to me (as I didn't see the scratches) the lens would be in mint condition due the age it has. I understand that the definition could be wrong but I didn't do that to cheat any buyer.

    I understand now that "mint" condition could be interpretaded in many ways but I need to be more precise when describing the item as "mint".

    I'm an honest person and I'm trying to solve the problem but the way I do that is between me and Jor. When you say that this item won't value 30% of the price, first you'd need to know how much Jor payed for it and second you should know about these lenses prices... I'd be glad if you don't post that non helping comments. I see you had many problems in the past dealing with people but I don't know you and I don't need your opinions as you are not trying to help. This is not an open circus to send me tomatoes I think...But maybe I'm blind...

  29. #29
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    It is very easy to solve by letting the lens be returned. You don't know for sure that checking the box "returned item" is not sufficient. In addition there is a lot of documentation readily available to show that it was returned.

    So, why don't buyer and seller spend the next day working out the details and we can all stop posting for a bit and see if a resolution can be found.

  30. #30
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzaros View Post
    Jor I thought we talked about the situation and I explained myself to you. By the way you could inform me about this post to give me a chance to explain.

    As I think all of you can see, I took pictures and I never hide the look of the equipment I sell. I didn't see the scratches and I wouldn't tell that the lens was in mint condition if I saw them. I'm not here to cheat anyone since I'm selling many items all the time.

    We are all humans and a mistake can happen but I explained I can't refund the money and get the lens back. I would pay something like 30% of the lens value (and our customs go to ebay to check prices if they want) and I can't do anything about that. I can say it is my lens and they don't care...

    I already told to Jor that I'll try to get a buyer for the lens inside my contacts.

    What I think that is totally unfair is that I already sold dozens of items and I never got any positive word... When one deal goes wrong everyone likes to say something even when they don't know the person...
    I did ask you to explain yourself and here was one email you replied.

    I inspected the lens and I took pictures of it. If I saw that I would let the people know about them.

    I'm sorry but it is impossible to return the lens.

    You can leave your feedback as you want.

    I'm sorry anyway.

    Regards,
    Ivo


    So what should I do after received such answers? The only thing I can do is post my experience and try to help other members not involving the bad transaction I met. And Just like I told you by email, I will withdraw my comments once you find me a buyer which was the way you offered.

    The reason that you can't accept the return is high value of customs so what happen to my loss? You, as the seller, has the responsibility to describe the item correctly, especially for the one who sold over 2000+ items. Also please check what I found at the original picture you used for sale. Look like those scratches were there when you took the picture but you just didn't notice them.


    I would consider partial refunds since you have problems with your customs and your big expense(really don't see the reason why I should care about this), but not 100 you offered or find me a potential buyer as you promised. Let's discuss the details by email and I will update if this thing was solved no matter via which ways.

    Thanks for all the comments!

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzaros View Post
    I assume that maybe I need to be more specific in the description but to me (as I didn't see the scratches) the lens would be in mint condition due the age it has. I understand that the definition could be wrong but I didn't do that to cheat any buyer.
    So I saw this fragment of a bowl that was 3,000 years old - even though it was this tiny piece I called it 'mint'!

    Lazzaros you are wrong - there is no way around it. Take the return and refund the money otherwise please leave...


    Thanks,
    dr

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Making false descriptions is one thing, denying the problem and refusing return/refund is another. You are not really making a good case for yourself.

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    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Ivo:
    You need to take the the lens back. Your buyer didn't know about the scratches, either.
    It is not his fault; maybe it is not yours either. But the result is that you sold him a lens he can not be satisfied with. He should not take a loss. He should not, as you suggest, sell this lens to someone else. That would be dishonest, and we are all sure you don't want that.
    I am sorry that you would "take the hit", but he fact is that if you want to sell here again, you will have to do the right thing and take the lens back. I almost contacted you about buying this lens as well. I didn't because you are in Portugal. Others won't even bother to look at your ads in the future, if you don't fix this.
    I am sorry this costs you additionally. But YOU have to be honorable, and fix this with your buyer. This is not complicated.
    Michael

    Leica and Canon

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Holy crap! this forum is full of gangsters!

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by usathyan View Post
    Holy crap! this forum is full of gangsters!
    Sorry, but I beg to differ with that...
    Michael

    Leica and Canon

  36. #36
    Senior Member Lazzaros's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Umesh your contribution helped a lot to solve this current problem.

    Me and Jor got a solution but he will update the situation.

  37. #37
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    The misunderstanding seems to be that Ivo thinks " mint" is a relative term, dependent on the age of the item. In every single buy/sell I have ever been involved in, "mint" means an item in new condition, virtually indistinguishable from new. The error in the description was the seller's as the scratches on the lens elements were not the only issue; the nicks and dings on the lens body (also not shown in the photos) would also disqualify this lens from a "mint" rating. Now the seller needs to make good on his error, even if it means eating a loss. If he does that it will be a good investment in goodwill that will pay him dividends on future sales. If he does not refund, there will likely be no future sales. And of course, now "mint" will be used very carefully.
    Alan

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I did not read the original post, nor do I know 100% what the seller is thinking.
    but, in my opinion, I would have to describe this as user condition at best if I were selling it.
    I would also have to take some test shots at F11 pointed at a clear part of a blue sky and confirm if those scratches show up in photos, and report those findings in my ad.

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    In my opinion there are only two possibilities:

    1) gross misrepresentation by the seller, or
    2) gross negligence by the seller in assessing the condition of the lens.

    In either case, it reflects poorly on the seller, and on top of that he has been reluctant to take responsibility. I would not deal with him regardless of the outcome.

    Alan

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Got the partial refunds today.
    Thanks for all the concerns!

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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    If that is what you both had agreed - then nice finish.
    It should happen earlier anyway.

  42. #42
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leicadoc View Post
    Ivo:
    You need to take the the lens back. Your buyer didn't know about the scratches, either.
    It is not his fault; maybe it is not yours either. But the result is that you sold him a lens he can not be satisfied with. He should not take a loss. He should not, as you suggest, sell this lens to someone else. That would be dishonest, and we are all sure you don't want that.
    I am sorry that you would "take the hit", but he fact is that if you want to sell here again, you will have to do the right thing and take the lens back. I almost contacted you about buying this lens as well. I didn't because you are in Portugal. Others won't even bother to look at your ads in the future, if you don't fix this.
    I am sorry this costs you additionally. But YOU have to be honorable, and fix this with your buyer. This is not complicated.
    I do not quite agree with this post (although I am sympathetic to the conclusions). I buy and sell many many lenses and one test I always perform is to shine a high intensity light on them to discover these types of scratches. It takes less than a minute so there is no excuse for not doing it. This is even more important when describing a lens as mint. In that case there should be no scratches, dust, fungi etc. JMHO

    Woody

  43. #43
    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I do not quite agree with this post (although I am sympathetic to the conclusions). I buy and sell many many lenses and one test I always perform is to shine a high intensity light on them to discover these types of scratches. It takes less than a minute so there is no excuse for not doing it. This is even more important when describing a lens as mint. In that case there should be no scratches, dust, fungi etc. JMHO

    Woody
    And your point of disagreement is?
    Michael

    Leica and Canon

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    Senior Member Hacker's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Very misleading description of the item. I trust the price is now adjusted to the true value of the lens based on the condition and the amount refunded accordingly.

  45. #45
    Senior Member RF_Licks's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Not to aggravate matters, I've bought and sold here and the description "mint" here can really mean "mint" or "junk". Its really subjective on this board.

    To me, if its mint, it should not have scratches. But for a seller to post some pics and "miss" the scratches, hmm..

    But I also think its wise for buyers to ask lots of questions and never make any assumptions, especially if its a cross country sale that involves customs, taxes, etc. I think the best way for the seller to redeem himself in this situation is to accept a return and take this as a lesson learnt.

    Joe

  46. #46
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Joe it is subjective on any forum. One mans mint is another mans garage sale item. Ask for images when in doubt. That way it is very CLEAR on what you are buying or you just have faith in the person. Personally no one has ever asked me and no one has ever complained either. So if it is someone you don't know than ask for some pictures . Like any other buy and sell place it will always be buyer beware and get clarification of what you are buying.

    BTW this is maybe the only forum that the Buy and Sell is watched extremely carefully.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  47. #47
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ....BTW this is maybe the only forum that the Buy and Sell is watched extremely carefully.
    Do you mean the Buy and Sell is watched closely as an administrator or self-proclaimed gear slut?

    jus' sayin.....


  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Don't tell anyone the mods are all gear sluts. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Member RGoldman's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    I'm suprised there's not a hold on new postings until the mods have a chance to purchase, ummmm, I mean check the item out.

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Negative feedback!!!

    Not on new postings but on new members signing up.


    But I like your thinking Ron
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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