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Thread: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

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    Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    There is no doubt about it, the colours in C1 are on a different planet for accuracy compared to adobe when working with RAW files. Especially with skin tones where it almost makes me cry to see the difference! I've been using ACR practically since it was first released, I use DNG Profile Editor, I have a Gretag (or whatever they call it these days) chart. I can't get skin tones to look anywhere near as easy and accurate as C1 does. Heck, even the WB tool is far more accurate in C1. The highlights recovery is also far better implemented (works globally not just on contrast). Detail is better as is (especially) the colour noise reduction tool.

    But. The ACR engine and especially the tools such as the Local Adjustment Tool and Targeted Adjustment Tool are far better. Heck just being able to set the black point easily without having to describe a custom curve or apply changes to just one setting to multiple images is far easier in ACR. I'm a wedding shooter and the ability to dodge and burn in a RAW converter is too much of an advantage to give up after all these years of waiting for it!

    Does anyone have any idea how I can get C1 colour in ACR? Please pretty please? Either that or I spend more time trying to get to know C1 (huge list of questions if that's what I'm doing ) and save to 16 bit TIFF, then open in ACR for dodge and burn (yeuch, will add hours to my workflow ).
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    I haven't used ARC for about 3 or 4 years but when I did the colors were better if you calibrated the camera/lens. There is a tab for camera calibration in ARC. If you haven't already done so then you may want to give it a try. I never took the time to calibrate for each lens/shooting condition but came up with a generic one that got me in the ballpark but I never used it much because C1 was better - I'm not processing tons of images from big shoots, however.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    These days you use a colour checker card and roll your own profile using the DNG Profile Editor, even with that I've changed some bits in the calibration tab, mainly in the red section, knocks out a lot of the orange. Thing is that I don't have a accurate enough colour response in difficult lighting for skin tones. Mixing sodium or fluorescent with daylight is a nightmare to process for. C1 gets it right first time everytime but it's horrible to deal with in ACR/LR to try and get accurate skin tones.

    Thing is that I've tried C1 many times, for colour and detail it's incredible. For everything else it seems far more suited to a 'work with a few images and then send the TIFF to PS for further work' rather than an all in one solution like ACR/LR. As a wedding photographer bringing back hundreds of images at a time and then usually processing 4 weddings together (I work in one country and process when I get home), C1 just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as user friendly at the actual processing stage.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Why not try to search around other forums on the web for wedding photographers. There have got to be plenty of them using Canon and ACR/LR who have made presets that are working.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    I think the main problem is that ACR/LR works by having a colour set for daylight and one for incandescent and then just averaging everything else in between. When you hit mixed lighting you just don't have a preset to work with and end up with funky skin colours. Fluorescent mixed with flash or daylight is the biggest culprit, add high iso and it's a nightmare.

    I'll try asking around on wedding forums but if I know the people shooting weddings these days the typical answer is going to be 'why sweat it, just use the included profile, you must be a pixel peeping geek not a photographer, etc, etc'. I did once ask a question about getting accurate colour from ACR on the photo.net wedding forum and got creamed for it with the above nonsense.

    I'm hoping Marc will chime in, he's an LR user but has the (old fashioned) taste for quality that used to define a wedding photographer. Methinks his reply is going to be that if I choose to shoot 5D's then I get what I deserve! () I have no doubt he shoots Sony's these days for a reason...
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 14th September 2009 at 07:46.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Ben, welcome to the dark side... The only way I ever got even remotely close color with ACR/LR was to build a dedicated camera profile -- actually a set of tuned adjustments -- in ACR. At the end of the day it got me about half-way to C1 color about half of the time. Now you know the second reason I sing the praises I do of C1...
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.
    Ben,
    Have you worked with the vibrance slider. Vibrance works on the midtones and saturation but does not mess around with skin tones.

    http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/li..._vibrance.html

    I also think Martin Evening has done some work here but I can't link to his site from my work computer.
    Last edited by Terry; 14th September 2009 at 08:31.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Not understanding, please excuse me,

    Vibrance in ACR/LR works as a saturation tool which is supposed to not effect skin tones (works some of the time). It isn't an exposure tool.

    As I said the exposure/brighness/shadows tools in ACR are perfect for the job they do. You set your black point with shadows. You set your white point with the exposure tool (if you need to recover whites). You then do the mid point with the brighness tool but unlike in Levels, it does also work together with the shadows/highlights to preserve contrast. Works perfectly and I love it.

    In C1 both the exposure and brightness tool seem to be global. Want to brighten a face? You're going to get the dress too bright. Oh and the grooms tux will be too bright as well. The highlight tool seems to be a simple curves adjusment, it affects midtones far too easily and it shouldn't. You can anchor the black and white point (ish) using levels or curves instead but that makes it a nightmare to work quickly through multiple images or even to have a default value to be applied to hundreds of images.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Ben,

    We should really talk (or you could take our screen-sharing based online training).

    I shoot a lot of weddings and process only in Capture One with further retouching (when paid for and warranted - usually only on the formals) in PS as needed (from 16 bitt TIFFs).

    In my strong opinion, C1 is FASTER at editing, adjusting, and processing 200-400 shot weddings than either Aperture or LightRoom (which I maintain knowledge of for my job here as Head of Tech Services). It's only a nice bonus that the images usually have better grain, detail, and color than when using LR or Aperture.

    Of course to get to that level you need to have a good workflow established, know all the tricks/tips/shortcuts, and learn ways to create and apply presets.

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 14th September 2009 at 08:47.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.
    Try using the levels tool and move the midpoint slider left. Obviously this is a gamma adjustment, but it works wonders in C1 since we usually only need a slight bump -- plus this particular adjustment in C1 enhances/emulates a more film-like response curve

    Basic C1 workflow, FWIW:

    Camera Profile, response curve, Color balance;
    Then exposure to desired white point or clip -- I usually shoot for 245 - 250 max;
    Shadow and/or highlight as needed to balance both;
    Secret optional but not essential adjustment step 1 (We do share it at the workshops);
    Then levels to adjust BLACK point;
    Then levels to adjust midpoint;
    Optional Step 2;
    Color editor if needed;
    THEN go back and tweak exposure slightly and/or adjust global contrast and brightness if needed (and usually they are not unless the original had extreme flat or contrasty lighting).

    Cheers,
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    In C1 both the exposure and brightness tool seem to be global. Want to brighten a face? You're going to get the dress too bright. Oh and the grooms tux will be too bright as well. The highlight tool seems to be a simple curves adjusment, it affects midtones far too easily and it shouldn't. You can anchor the black and white point (ish) using levels or curves instead but that makes it a nightmare to work quickly through multiple images or even to have a default value to be applied to hundreds of images.
    In C1 the best way to accomplish this would be to create a Color Editor preset to raise the luminance and slightly lower the saturation of skin tones. Creating a second and third preset for more aggressive iterations (maybe the most aggressive would include a curve-up for the upper midtones) wouldn't hurt given your needs. Then save that as a style and make sure styles are included in your Quick Tab and voila - it will take you only 2-3 seconds to preview and then apply these changes as a group to any individual image and less than a second each to jump through similar images and apply the same adjustments to them (e.g. for 5 similar-light shots in a row of the cake cutting).

    Really - it's very very fast - once you learn the tricks.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Thanks Jack, I've tried it and yes it does work. Problem is that the blackpoint on an full length portrait and a close up is going to be different as the histo is different. I can set the same blackpoint and brightness in ACR for a whole group of portraits shot in the studio and they will all be identical, so far that isn't the case with C1.

    BTW, I'm working on DNG files, when I work with the ICC profile 'neutral' the colour is fine. When I apply the 5D profile the colours go crazy. They don't if I use that profile on a CR2 file. Any reason why?
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    I haven't anything of a technical or step-by-step nature to contribute, however, I find that my own tendency to stick with a longish-term and hard won workflow often works against me. This is especially the case (for me) with C1. I absolutely love it and now use it to open all my various camera's RAW files. But only as a first step before refining it in PS. I can understand why this could be a problem for a commercial shooter like a wedding photographer.

    My sense is that there's a tremendous amount of power and convenience under the hood of C1 that I haven't taken the time to learn. It almost seems as if I've spent a lot of time becoming comfortable with digital in general (as opposed to film) and have reached a point of saturation. My stuff looks ok and I know what I have to do. So I avoid taking on new learning curves. Even when I know that I could be better and faster by biting the bullet and taking a tutorial or workshop.

    Speaking strictly for myself, I'm beginning to think that I make my own barriers sometimes and that can lead to frustration. Whether something similar is happening to you, I can't say.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Thanks Jack, I've tried it and yes it does work. Problem is that the blackpoint on an full length portrait and a close up is going to be different as the histo is different. I can set the same blackpoint and brightness in ACR for a whole group of portraits shot in the studio and they will all be identical, so far that isn't the case with C1.

    BTW, I'm working on DNG files, when I work with the ICC profile 'neutral' the colour is fine. When I apply the 5D profile the colours go crazy. They don't if I use that profile on a CR2 file. Any reason why?
    1) If you use the levels slider to set a black point -- say to 4 -- and apply it, then ALL of your images will in fact have 4 as their black point, so yes that part works. However, while the midpoint slider will adjust gama identically across all selected images, it will affect each image differently depending on its individual histo spread. You can however use the top of the levels adjustment instead of the exposure slider to set a fixed white point for all images and just like the black, it will be the same for all selected images. Moreover, depending on which end of the levels slider you grab and adjust, you can change input or output levels or BOTH to the same setting for all selected images.

    2) DNG coding is supposed to be standardized by Adobe, but from all the reports I have read it isn't really -- or at least fully. Apparently Adobe has some secret color sauce codes they keep secret for their converters and it does not transfer out in the generic DNG but remains readable by Adobe...
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Cough Cough. workshop workshop. Seriously outside of coming and really learning this stuff hands on than sign up for one of Dougs web based training. Ben you are excused too many miles . Tim your on the hook bud. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Cough Cough. workshop workshop.... Tim your on the hook bud. LOL
    It's on my list, honest! Maybe I'm secretly hoping you'll pick a location in the East. There's some cool stuff out this way too!

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    To be honest folks I still can't batch 50 images all shot under the same studio lights to look exactly the same, blackpoint, mid levels and white point, not anywhere near as easily as in ACR. I also do not have the ability to do dodge and burn on RAW images and for this wedding shooter that is a huge disadvantage. I'm going to keep C1 for the difficult images, those high iso mixed lighting shots that ACR just won't get right. For the main though I'm sticking to streamlined and easy (where I don't have to pay to learn the software, never had to pay to find the minefield of information that taught me Bridge/ACR/LR). Sorry.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    For the main though I'm sticking to streamlined and easy (where I don't have to pay to learn the software, never had to pay to find the minefield of information that taught me Bridge/ACR/LR). Sorry.
    Obviously I have a very selfish vested interest here, but I never understood why so many photographers will pay thousands for lenses, tens of thousands for cameras, dozens of thousands for a college degree, hundreds of thousands to buy a studio, not to mention hundreds to BUY the software but then baulk at $100 for training on software to get the most out of it. Nearly everyone who takes the classes rave about the amount of time and headaches it saves them.

    O well. This isn't the time or place and my words here can't come across as anything but selfish.

    Do peruse all of the free info we post on our Tips section. Also, read through the manual (Help > Capture One Help), which gets better with every version.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    It's on my list, honest! Maybe I'm secretly hoping you'll pick a location in the East. There's some cool stuff out this way too!
    Mid-winter lighthouses :-)
    -bob

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Doug, the only thing that C1 does better for me is colour. I don't need that extra detail for wedding stuff, not for proofing. There's a limit to how far I'm going to go for a program that is a lot more limited than my present workflow (no dodge and burn and the other points I've mentioned above is a huge defficiency for me). I need simple, fast, easy and powerful. If I can't apply a set blackpoint, midpoint and highlight point to 50+ photos in under 10 seconds without workarounds and indepth tutorials then I'm afraid I'm not interested. Sorry Doug (and Jack) and thanks for your time and effort, I really mean that.

    For my present stitching work http://www.timelessjewishart.net I will be using C1 for that extra bit of detail (50+ megapixels just isn't enough! ) and for trouble images. Other than that I'm going to seek for a better colour profile set for my ACR workflow. I know it may sound crazy to some but the ability to dodge and burn to a wedding photographer without having to enter PS, pretty much trumps all...
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Fair enough. There's a reason why there are 3 major workflow programs and dozen more smaller players. One size does not fit all.

    To be super fast in C1 does require reading such tutorials / manuals / workshops. I think LR and Aperture do as well, but you already know LR. So it sounds like you'll be best served by "keeping on keeping on".

    I'll throw a big hand in the air to vote for local-area-adjustments (like dodge and burn) in C1. That would save considerable time in the workflow for many of our photographers.

    I still think "only" is kind of a strange word for correct rendering of color in an image. :-)

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Mid-winter lighthouses :-)
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    It's the difference between 'good' colour and 'perfect' colour in trouble lighting and high iso. The rest is plenty good enough for my applications. I do have a pretty good custom profile but like everything in ACR it works well but with non drastically mixed lighting. It's when you mix fluorescent and daylight or flash with high iso or underexposure when it takes quite a bit of twiddling in ACR to get it right or near enough. They just never can get their reds to work properly. Thanks again Doug.

    Here's the shot that sparked my heading over to C1 again. Shot in a fluorescent lit room, underexposed a bit, iso 1600. Lots and lots of flare. Bride wearing awful red blusher that gave me fits at the WB stage throughout the wedding. Here's as good as I can get in either program, not trying to do the same in both or match the two but working independantly. Oh and I'm not saying which is which, should be obvious That said the ACR version is good enough IMO (I hope, they're getting the proofs tomorrow , heck there are another 349 proofs to choose from if they don't like the colour on this one).

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    The more I look at that the more drastic the difference is, sigh..

    Perhaps doing weddings half half? Oh dear, those real skin tones are getting to me!

    Just had a wedding cancelled on me for the winter season, the quote and contract are in the mail to them at this very moment. Grrrr. They had confirmed verbally and as this is the 3rd in the family I was relaxed about getting the deposit. Oh well we learn from our stupidities...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    You suck I hate you all. Processing my first wedding in C1 (the wedding from above) to see how liveable it is. As long as I don't need dodge and burn the colour is soooooooooo much better. HATE YOU ALL!

    Still going to stick to ACR for all the batch stuff where I want the same setting for loads of pics or stuff where I need dodge and burn and the lighting is pretty even.

    Did I mention that I hate you. Especially you Doug. I'll put up a gallery of side by side of a bunch of pics when I'm done.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Did I mention that I hate you. Especially you Doug. I'll put up a gallery of side by side of a bunch of pics when I'm done.
    Nothing a little beer can't fix. After a good American Pale Ale (like the batch brewing in my closet) you won't see the differences in color anymore.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Just had a wedding cancelled on me for the winter season, the quote and contract are in the mail to them at this very moment.
    They must have heard about your reddish skintones!

    kidding of course :-)

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Mid-winter lighthouses :-)
    -bob
    Exactly! And some real-world weather testing. Did you know that Scotch always tastes better and has double the mellowing effect during the coldest winter months? I think we should find out if Gin is effected in a similar way.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    They must have heard about your reddish skintones!

    kidding of course :-)
    OUCH!!! But then he started it with all the hate speak
    Jack
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Sounds good,
    we can also test C1 vs ACR wearing gloves.
    -bob

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Ben,

    I slammed through this thread in a bit of a hurry so I probably missed something along the way but if you are dedicated to ACR/LR and do have a 24 color GMB color chart then check out ACRCalibrator .... better than the DNG profile editor for ACR in my estimation.

    There is a small article in LL that describes its use...essentially a script that allows you to generate a custom camera calibration in ACR for whatever lighting based on a capture of the color chart. This is saved as a preset and then can be applied to a batch of pictures for quick correction.

    The ACRCalibrator is not tested with newer ACR 5.4 etc but it works. Just follow the setup from the download site.

    I do think that Capture One is unbeatable for color...Phocus is on par but ACR/LR not.

    One does weary with multistep input process and output routines...

    Bob

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    The following is a conversion from a Leica M8 with VC Nokton 1.1 in very mixed lighting....rain outside with incandescent light inside.

    ACR with custom ACRCalibrator correction.

    Most conversions of the M8 have been way to magenta/red with ACR/LR.
    My trial here was due to the news that C1 would not ship for the M9/S2 cameras. I guess that we have some good news on half of that front.

    The colors are dead on accurate here with little extra work. The carpet and wall looked that bad in actuality. Green table glass/reflective green plants from the window and red brown from the bench however the bouquet is perfect.
    Last edited by docmoore; 23rd September 2009 at 18:09.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Just for general consumption I find ACR to always have a slight red bias and that has been with every camera i tried with it. I really don't know the exact reason but right off the bat I would try and solve that with some calibration.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    So far so good.

    I've discovered to have all sharpening off in C1. I did have sharpening=disable in the process menu but it makes such a big difference to the viewing window that it was throwing my exposures way way off. Switched it all off and finally the images look right when imported into PS. I also have to have the viewing window on it's own on my main screen with the rest of C1 on the 2nd screen, all that black was messing up my exposures, I thought the images were brighter than they were. I love the F10 button!

    Few questions for those of you who have the patience. Firstly how do I rotate an image by drag the same as I would in ACR after I'd applied a crop? *EDIT* found it, it's button 'R'. Shame you can't do both with the crop tool.

    Secondly, is the 'skin tone selection' applied even if that tab is not activated? How do I turn it off completely if not?

    Is there a way to make a specific set of settings which can then be applied to all images the same way I do in ACR by automatically applying my 'recipe' to all imported files? Is this what 'styles' is for? (looks like it but maybe I'm missing something.)

    What are the C1 files that have the changes stored in them, in other words, instead of XMP files in ACR/LR or the changes being stored in the DNG's themselves, what do I back up with my files on external HD's to preserve the data for when I open up backup files in C1?

    There is quite a bit of noise with luminance noise set to '0' but the default of '25' is very heavy on the reduction blur. What's a good setting as standard or should I just fiddle till I find one I like?

    There was something else but I forget.

    Thanks all you great people. When I see the difference between my ACR files and these with this difficult lighting, I blanch in horror at the proofs that are already on the way to the client. Oh and the 150+ digital weddings that I have done in the past using ACR...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Is there a way to make a specific set of settings which can then be applied to all images the same way I do in ACR by automatically applying my 'recipe' to all imported files? Is this what 'styles' is for? (looks like it but maybe I'm missing something.)
    After making adjustments to one image, with that image selected, open the Adjustments Tab (Adjustments Clipboard - 10th one over right after MetaData). When you first open it, it will be empty - then click on Copy (at the bottom) a list appears and all the adjustments you have made are check marked. Select all the images you wish to apply those adjustments then click Apply.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    What are the C1 files that have the changes stored in them, in other words, instead of XMP files in ACR/LR or the changes being stored in the DNG's themselves, what do I back up with my files on external HD's to preserve the data for when I open up backup files in C1?
    By default, when you browse a folder of images in C1 it will create a folder entitled CaptureOne inside of the folder containing your images. Inside of the CaptureOne folder are 2 folders: Cache & Settings45 which contain the previews and the settings, respectively.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Secondly, is the 'skin tone selection' applied even if that tab is not activated? How do I turn it off completely if not?
    It's "OFF" by default, you have to use it for it to take effect. All it is is a sophisticated WB tool to keep skintones of a given subject (like a bride ) consistent throughout an entire series of images regardless of lighting changes. Wedding photographers really like it. (Sorry, couldn't resist )

    Is there a way to make a specific set of settings which can then be applied to all images the same way I do in ACR by automatically applying my 'recipe' to all imported files? Is this what 'styles' is for? (looks like it but maybe I'm missing something.)
    Adjust your first image to desired state, then do a Shift+CMD+C -- that copies all of your adjustments to the adjustment clipboard. Next select all the images you want to apply those adjustments to -- you can do this normally by Shift-clicking, CMD-clicking or doing a CMD-A. Once selected, do a Shift-CMD-V to apply the copied adjustment to all selected images. You done. Or do it the way Charlie said. Or use the icons for same up at the top RH side of the screen with the arrow out and arrow in. Or there are about 4 other ways you can do it too

    What are the C1 files that have the changes stored in them, in other words, instead of XMP files in ACR/LR or the changes being stored in the DNG's themselves, what do I back up with my files on external HD's to preserve the data for when I open up backup files in C1?
    They are in the "Capture One" folder automatically placed inside whatever main folder you browsed your images from. Inside that main folder are two folders, "Cache" adn "Settings 45". Inside the Settings 45 folder you find a bunch of xxx.cos files -- those are the equivalents of the Adobe XMP files. Oh, sorry -- what Charlie said.

    There is quite a bit of noise with luminance noise set to '0' but the default of '25' is very heavy on the reduction blur. What's a good setting as standard or should I just fiddle till I find one I like?
    Fiddle. In short, I find zero works well with low ISO images from my P back and 1Ds3. However once ISO goes up, that slider needs to go up too. 25 is probably good for ISO 400 on both cameras.

    There was something else but I forget.
    You hate us.

    Thanks all you great people. When I see the difference between my ACR files and these with this difficult lighting, I blanch in horror at the proofs that are already on the way to the client. Oh and the 150+ digital weddings that I have done in the past using ACR...
    You are welcome
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    So should I not use styles if there is a set default that I want applied to all images upon import? It seems to be the fastest way.

    How then do I use the skin tone tool, do I ignore WB and use the skin tone instead?

    I have to fiddle with the noise reduction stuff though the default values C1 applies for colour noise seem spot on and tuned for each pic individually. The colour noise doesn't go blotchy like in ACR. Me likes. Is there any way to select only the images shot at iso 400 to apply a certain noise reduction like in Bridge or am I asking too much from a non browser program?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Oh I get it now, you can't select all the images and apply a style, you can't seem to do anything to multiple images without using the cludgy adjustments clipboard or first doing the changes to one image then applying all of them to a selection, makes doing simple things rather long winded. Wow but applying a set default to 350 images takes a long time, C1 been frozen for 10 mins already.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    OK, so far so good. I've given up on using ACR for any point of the wedding basic processing as I learn the C1 workflow that will work for me.

    So far it is looking like this. Use Bridge to sort images, cull and rename. I know I could do it in C1 but not as well or as easily as in Bridge. Go to C1 and work the files for colour and exposure then save as TIFF. Go back to Bridge and use ACR to crop and rotate (far quicker in ACR on my machine than C1 which stutters a lot), add or subtract vignetting, spot/dust removal and most importantly, dodge and burn where needed. Send files to PS using one of my custom actions for PTLens, custom curve, sharpening and save as jpg or for conversion to B&W using again a custom action that I made.

    Only problem with this is I now have 300 TIFF's from each wedding, not just the RAW's. That's going to eat up a lot of HD space. Question, if I'm saving from C1 and intending to do some dodging and burning (all information in the histogram, no spikes at either end), will I have more info saving from C1 with a 8bit TIFF than a highest quality jpg?

    A bit longer than my present workflow, the saving to TIFF is an extra step and I'm not as fluid with C1 yet as I was with ACR, nevermind the slower workflow for applying changes to multiple files, but otherwise I don't think it's going to be that much slower given that the majority of my work in ACR has always been the colour but in C1 suddenly my camera's AWB is almost perfect and a quick tap of the WB tool is all that's needed otherwise. Never had that with ACR!

    Guys, I owe you a BIG beer. Anytime you're in Jerusalem or Manchester UK, drinks are on me.

    P.S. what's the correct tool in C1 for highlight recovery? Does doing a minus of exposure work as recovery like in ACR or is it all in the highlight tool?
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 15th September 2009 at 04:27.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    You can also save the files in C1 as a DNG in the output tab. Might want to think about this work them in C1 even sorting with a ranking system for editing . Than select /sort all you 5 star images than make all your adjustments than output to DNG which i believe is a smaller file than bring into than into LR or ACR for dodge and burn stuff. I never use ACR or LR so not sure that process.

    On highlights you want the High Dynamic Range tab and use the highlight slider. Great feature in C1 you can also hit the highlight warning and shadow warning by hitting the triangle in the top right corner and than you will know your values as you work the highlight tool. BTW if you want to vignette the corners, I find C1 a nicer tool to use than PS.

    For dodging and burning you can also use the color editor which I do a lot and select the color you want to darken or lighten and work it in there. 90 percent of this image which was fairly flat looking was done in color editor like this.

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    P.S. what's the correct tool in C1 for highlight recovery? Does doing a minus of exposure work as recovery like in ACR or is it all in the highlight tool?
    Not sure if a minus of exposure works as recovery like in ARC but it does help but the Highlight Slider in the High Dynamic Range tool does a very good job. Additionally, if you have a difficult situation where you are trying to recover highlights in the Quick Tab > Base Characteristics - normally the default is Film Standard - change this to Linear Response for those difficult images and highlights are not as hot. This image will look very flat so normally I will add a simple S curve to bring back some of the pop.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It's "OFF" by default, you have to use it for it to take effect. All it is is a sophisticated WB tool to keep skintones of a given subject (like a bride ) consistent throughout an entire series of images regardless of lighting changes. Wedding photographers really like it. (Sorry, couldn't resist )
    RE Skin Tone Tool. On my Windows machine (ok stop laughing) yes, it was off by default (None) but after having selected one of the presets the None disappeared - I can no longer select None, only one of the presets. Is this a know "feature"? Have I been applying the light rose skin tone (or whatever) to all of my images since I fiddled with this months ago?

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    RE Skin Tone Tool. On my Windows machine (ok stop laughing) yes, it was off by default (None) but after having selected one of the presets the None disappeared - I can no longer select None, only one of the presets. Is this a know "feature"? Have I been applying the light rose skin tone (or whatever) to all of my images since I fiddled with this months ago?
    Charlie/Ben re skintone:

    You have to select the skintone dropper and click it in an image before it has any effect. You can create a custom skintone of 128/128/128 neutral gray and use it like a regular WB dropper if you want, but unless you select it and apply it, it isn't doing anything to the WB of your image. TO use it as it was designed, I would for example get a good shot of a bride and click on her chin or cheek -- some area that is easy to see in all following images -- and create a skintone for her. Now in each subsequent image of her, I can click-apply that tone on the same portion of her skin and presto, her skin is now the exact same color in every image. Note that due to lighting, her gown or flowers may be slightly altered between images, but at least she -- her skin -- has a consistent appearance in every image. If I cannot find a good file for her skintone, I would use one of the presets that generated a pleasing result for he particular coloring based on my recall, then use that to set her skin to that color for a given series of images. Make sense?
    Jack
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Ben:

    Sorting: You really need to understand that C1 is designed around working sessions and in your case a session could be a particular wedding, or one session for the rehearsal and another for the formal sitting and another for the wedding day itself if you choose. Once here, you now have a dedicated set of folders for each session. Here you can sort and flag to your heart's content and even have an automatically created "Move To" folder where you can send every one and two star image, or blue-flagged one-star images only for processing or other action. Bottom line is it is VERY powerful but way beyond the scope of explaining to you in an online forum. I *HIGHLY* recommend you sign up for one of Doug's webinars -- you will learn more in an hour there than 10 days of forum posts...

    Output files and disk space: Each session also creates a dedicated ""Output" folder. This is the default folder for all processed images from that session. After you process, you could easily remove all files from that folder -- permanently erase them. All of your adjustments are still intact and connected to the raw file by the .cos file we discussed earlier, and if you need a processed tiff again, you can simply select the image and processit as a single and it will be identical to the file you trashed a day or year ago as long as you don't change any adjustments. Moreover, you can save different adjustment parameters as "Variants." Each variant is only the set of adjustments so takes up virtually no additional space on your drive. (Personally, I would invest in more hard drives -- I think they're really cheap -- and still save all my processed tiffs in a dedicated folder for that client, but then that's me.)

    Highlight recovery: The highlight (and shadow for shadow boost) sliders in C1 are specifically for that purpose and IMO do a *MUCH* better job of actually recovering highlights than LR/ACR.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    I agree the highlight tools and also working with highlight warnings are very easy for you to dial in and it's results are the best I have seen in recovering.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Jack, the point is that I need files output from C1 which I can then apply crop/rotate and local adjustment tool to them before batching to PS and running actions on them to get the finished file I send for printing or burn to disk, etc. That means that I then have to have a) the RAW file b) the output file from C1 that I apply changes to c) the finished file. Now I usually only keep a) as it includes all the changes I've made from start to finish. Any time I need the files I just run the batch action on them. Not so now, I need both a) and b) archived. If b) is TIFF's then that can burn through some HD's very very fast.

    If I have a good workflow in a browser as powerful as Bridge CS4 with all the ability of metadata searches I don't see the need to learn that step in C1 which, at least on my machine, is far far slower at doing everything, nevermind the fact that I can have multiple Bridge windows up all doing different tasks. Unless for my specific workflow there is going to be a significant advantage to learning it in a new program I'm wary of the concept of having to switch. For example, I have a set of defaults which are applied to all RAW files as standard when I import the files. When I am viewing the files for culling purposes it's already with a set default of values so that I have a baseline to work from. I've discovered with C1 that I would have to apply the changes to a single file then copy them over to the rest of the files. One step too many especially when C1 crashed completely doing the above to 350 files, I don't need that when I get back from a wedding with 1250 files and want to see which pictures are actually in focus...

    Guy I need to check this but I'm almost 100% sure that when you save a DNG in C1 just like in ACR the changes are only visible to the program writing it. You can't save a finished file in C1 and have any of the changes show in ACR. I know for sure it doesn't work the other way round. That leaves me with the option of saving a TIFF or JPG. I know that if I process to leave enough room on either side of the histo then an 8bit TIFF is enough to give me the data needed for dodge and burn. Question is whether a full quality jpg has the same data.

    As for the highlight warnings, I'm already working with these processing steps:

    1)Apply default style (blackpoint,contrast,saturation, minimal highlights, noise reduction, sharpening all at zero)
    2)WB
    3)Brightness
    4)Recover highlights if needed.
    5)Use levels midpoint to normalise the facial brightness after highlights tool
    6)touch up blackpoint if needed.

    I have my keyboard shortcuts saved to clone the ACR ones (give or take) for less confusion. The clipping warning is set to 'O' and 'Q' takes me straight to the quick processing panel. Works great, I'm toggling the clipping warning on and off as needed.

    This file shows my workspace at present: http://www.studio-beni.net/desktop.jpg
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 15th September 2009 at 07:36.
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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Wow but applying a set default to 350 images takes a long time, C1 been frozen for 10 mins already.
    I've just tried this here.

    In a folder with 300 files of a P45 I applied a set of adjustments to all images.
    The adjustments included:
    - ICC profile
    - Exposure
    - Noise Reduction (lum + color)
    - Sharpening
    - Adjustments in the Color Editor (6 colors)

    I took C1 15 seconds to apply the adjustments to all 300 (299) images.

    The sole thing that takes some time in C1 is the first creation of the previews/thumbnails… but once they are all loaded everything goes very fast.

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    Re: Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

    My C1 had a heart attack when I tried it! I'm going to try it again with a different wedding. Other than that I find it pretty sluggish at just about everything compared to ACR but I don't mind that as just doing colour and brightness it's liveable with.

    *EDIT* nope, crashed again, this time on 292 5D RAW files. Dual 2.2ghz machine, 8GB RAM, files on a raid 0 disk, never had any problems before. 100 files at a time works OK.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 15th September 2009 at 07:56.
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