CI upgrade offer

[Phase V]

Looking at the offer from Capture Integration
to trade in your IQ 3 back i still wonder
what the proper deal would be:
- look for a resonable priced 2 year old IQ4 (18-20k$) have 3 years warranty left on it
and try to sell your IQ3 100 for 8-10k$
- or trade in your IQ3 100, pay a huge 22.490$ and
get a new IQ4 with only 1 year warranty?
In my opinion, this reduction in warranty and devaluation of the IQ3 100 trade in
value killed the upgrade for most, perhaps the reason they
are running out of used backs as it seems.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Seems that the strategy of P1 is to be tough on the price and then to wait for the market to fix prices as second-hand supply is low and will dry out.

In that case prices of second-hand backs IQ4 might re-adjust upwards further (I don't think 18k is a market price, but more an aberration) as it is just not the case that you can run around and easily find them at 18-20k and the new trade in programme clearly shows they are more expensive to buy new even via trade-in.

Ie. if one finds that frustrated IQ4 user, and one trusts the guy, good for oneself, but I suspect P1 is purposefully keeping demand tight to keep it a premium product. They are basically saying 20k is not the market price we want to see and we'll keep supply hermetically low to not devaluate the product and protect the investment of our customers.

It won't help then for someone searching for a P1 back to state and state again on a forum that they believe the market price should be 18k just because some lucky few got backs at a great price - if no one wants to sell you theirs you are forced to get a new one.

The IQ4 is still the best back out there in terms of resolution, IQ, features and if you truly want the best there's no way around it on a tech cam.

I bought a new IQ4 achro end of last year as there are basically no used ones. Couldn't be happier and am looking forward to upgrading to IQ5 whenever that may be (hope next year or 2025).

I think it is a good signal: a) P1 still spends time coming up with marketing campaigns together with its distributors, ie they still think about photography and b) they want to protect the market value and c) it looks like they will stick around longer in the photography segment.

Would be nice to hear a bit more colour from Steve at CI around what he feels P1's current stance on the photo clients is. Would be great if they came out with the XT mini (no shift, but direct comms with XT lenses) and XT XL this year ... shift ways of 18mm+.

 

[f8orbust]

If I had an IQ3 back, was looking to sell it, and someone offered me $8k - $10k I'd bite their hand off.

If I had an IQ4-150 for sale and someone offered me $18k - $20k for it, I'd bite their other hand off.

DBs aren't rare pieces of collectible photographic ephemera, they're just ageing bits of computer equipment. The idea that used prices are going to 'bottom out' and start rising again is pure fantasy.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

If I had an IQ3 back, was looking to sell it, and someone offered me $8k - $10k I'd bite their hand off.

If I had an IQ4-150 for sale and someone offered me $18k - $20k for it, I'd bite their other hand off.

DBs aren't rare pieces of collectible photographic ephemera, they're just ageing bits of computer equipment. The idea that used prices are going to 'bottom out' and start rising again is pure fantasy.

It is not about solely the passage of time. The back is still great and the highest-resolution sensor out there. By that measure, it has no equal. For landscape photographers, fine art photographers, etc. it arguably is still a desirable tool.

The price is a result of demand and supply and since there are no higher res alternative digital backs there is still a demand. So if there are not many or none to be had immediately in the second hand market then prices will rise if people are looking for them and can't buy them for cheap used. It is not a last gen device, which is an important aspect so it is not comparable to the IQ3.

It could use a new SoC to be snappier, have better battery life and maybe do some more in-back processing alongside better wireless I/O. This aside, from a pure usage point of of view, it is still working great. It is not that there's an IQ5 out with distinct advantages over the IQ4 which makes it less desirable.

Also not everyone is on a forum searching for the cheapest used one. Some people pay premium for factory new.

There's probably a lot of people who see this and are tempted still to get a new one as the price now went down from 40 something to shy of 30 effectively (by buying a used Fuji or talkint to the dealer to put together a special discount).

In any case P1's strategy seems to starve out the market of cheap IQ4s by re-setting the new price to c.30k which I find encouraging. It also allows them to bring out an IQ5 and ask for 20k upgrade pricing from the base of an IQ4. Frankly, it is left field and a good sign that P1 is still alive and committed to photography.

 

[ThdeDude]

If I had an IQ3 back, was looking to sell it, and someone offered me $8k - $10k I'd bite their hand off.

"bite their hand off" I am not getting this? I would be kissing their hand.

One IQ3 was sold recently on this site after extensive trying for $7.8K. I am right now debating whether I should offer my (very underused) IQ3 again but this time with a (firm) asking price of $6995.-

(I have to get some more fluidity in my photographic MF process. Maybe a sign of senility, but the fussiness of using and operating the IQ3 is starting to irk me.)

 

[ThdeDude]

What may work in favor of P1 is that HB now officially discontinued the H system. Now there is no chance that HB pulls a white rabbit out of its hat in the form of a competitive H camera or DB.

 

[RobbieAB]

Seems that the strategy of P1 is to be tough on the price and then to wait for the market to fix prices as second-hand supply is low and will dry out.

As a strategy, that strikes me as self-defeating. How many people who can afford to buy new will choose to buy this kind of electronic goods used?

I may be wrong, but I suspect a healthy used market would actually be better for P1 in many ways because it would mean a larger ecosystem, simply by providing a lower price of entry for the well-heeled curious. Or is that market so small, it wouldn’t offset the losses from people who wold buy new stepping down to buying used?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

As a strategy, that strikes me as self-defeating. How many people who can afford to buy new will choose to buy this kind of electronic goods used?

I may be wrong, but I suspect a healthy used market would actually be better for P1 in many ways because it would mean a larger ecosystem, simply by providing a lower price of entry for the well-heeled curious. Or is that market so small, it wouldn’t offset the losses from people who wold buy new stepping down to buying used?

I think two aspects:

a) The market is small and we are at a point where the elasticity of demand for lower prices doesn't outweigh the lost revenues from their perspective, most probably. Ie: They strategize that by lowering the price to say 20k effectively (with trade-in scheme or not) they have more to lose than by keeping everything still expensive as the low number of annual sales is still at a certain level where they can just leave it at 30k effectively without suffering a complete sales breakdown as it is still the flagship digital back out there sought after by the highest end of photographers. Meaning: those who can afford and need it will buy at 30k or 20k so maybe just leave it at 30k effectively.

b) If they would go below this level of 30k they'd destroy the whole strategy of the last 20 years namely to sell a new back for 20-24k with a trade-in of the prior gen back. If the prior gen back only costs say 18k they cannot price the new one at 45k-50k and offer half price because the prior gen one costs less than that. Ie they prefer to give you 50% discount on an IQ5 with an IQ4 which allows them to sell the IQ5 list at 50kish and the IQ4 below 30k.

This way they can continue like they did in the past and make enough money per unit with the IQ5 platform and not needlessly give away profit margins on the IQ4 platform.

This is an enthusiast forum so I also think there's also a hardcore professional user base out there that atm uses the IQ3 or IQ3 TRI daily and which may now be tempted to upgrade.

Finally, businesses can depreciate their back purchase over time thereby saving taxes so whether the latest gen imaging capturing device costs 30k effectively or 20k effectively is less important compared to an enthusiast that purchases this from their savings.

In any case, for me this is encouraging to see – I'd be tempted to interpret this as P1 not exiting photography tomorrow.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

I find it interesting that the IQ4-150 has been out for almost five years now and no other company has tried to better it. I've had mine since the fall of 2018 and it's been a very reliable workhorse that I probably don't need but love to use -despite its weight! If an IQ5 ever appears it would have to have more than just a larger sensor to interest me. A reticulated screen, much better battery life and a light carbon fibre construction might tempt me but in truth the IQ4 already exceeds anything I need.

And, as I assure my wife, amortizing the cost over the last five years makes it a real bargain.....(No, she doesn't buy that either but it was worth a try.)

 

[rdeloe]

And, as I assure my wife, amortizing the cost over the last five years makes it a real bargain.....(No, she doesn't buy that either but it was worth a try.)

As the saying goes, "My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my tools for what I said they cost me".

 

[Maxx9photo]

For me trade in is the last option. You could make some extra $ in value of your gear when selling privately.
The only thing is, to get the right buyer at the right time sometimes is harder than what you expect and takes time.

Few months back, I traded in my Cambo Actus kit to Capture Integration. Reason I did that due to my gear is somewhat more on to a niche audience and hard to sell plus market was kind of weak. On top of that my own frustration with my gear at the time didn’t really help. That said, Capture Integration was able to provided me some options which facilitated my needs.

The trade process itself was smooth and very pleasant, thanks to Steve Hendrix!
My final thought on your situation, if you have the needs and have little or no time to sell privately then trade in would be a good idea.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Would be interesting to hear from CI / Steve if and what P1 has communicated about the commitment to photography informally in the process of the negotiations relating to this promotion. I would have thought that a new promotion would be a good moment to provide an informal update to the community. P1 being totally mum is not ideal.

Key questions:

+ Is P1 still developing new products, some ideas:
++ Will we see a new back at one point (no ETA is ok)
++ Will we see XT mini and XT XL, finally
++ Tilt as Cambo factory upgrade for existing lens line-up
++ I have given up hopes on new XF lenses (55 MK II)
++ Can consumers trust that P1 will be around in photography for the foreseeable future?
++ EVF for XT with zoom to 100% when manually focusing (wirelessly connecting with IQ5)

A new IQ4+ could use a significantly faster SoC:

+ Highly reactive, ie you can tap and shoot multiple frames in quick succession, ie nice onboard RAM buffer
+ Latest gen internal storage I/O for faster preview, saving, etc.
+ Battery lasts 3x as long
+ Bluetooth for remote triggering
+ Faster and more power efficient and reliable WiFi supporting crisp live view, look at DJIs drones!
+ More in-camera processing (LuTs, stitching, super resolution, auto LCC based on shift metadata, etc.)
+ Video recording in raw 4-6k
+ One additional port so one can use X shutter plus trigger cable
+ Filmic internal special sauce mode like the internal LUTs of Hassy's cameras
+ Smooth 4K video feed for external monitors for the new EVF

A new IQ5 could improve on DR and resolution (200 megapixels).

I guess for photography alone there's no capital to develop all this, but some of it would be useful also for their drone business, e.g. better remote video like at the level of DJI's drones ... raw and compressed video recording, next-gen power efficient SoC, etc.

 

[TechTalk]

The Phase One Group's 2022 annual reports were released about two weeks ago. They are closing down the Leaf subsidiary in Israel at the end of this month as I mentioned in another thread. In the report, under the header of "Research and development activities", they give this breakdown:

In 2022, the group continued its focus on driving innovation in the Geospatial industry by applying our expertise in digital imaging technology and application software to solve longstanding industry pain points.

Phase One's Geospatial business expanded its unique camera portfolio by introducing the iXM-GS120, and thereby pioneering the use of cameras with global shutter image sensors dedicated for geospatial applications including mobile mapping as well as aerial imaging.

On the inspection side of the business, most development effort was focused on making the P3 Payload robust and adding key features. The product market fit is very strong and the P3 Payload is considered the premium, high-end solution for asset inspection.

Looking to the space business, Phase One was pleased to announce its first camera in space which is currently capturing images. Ongoing development of our iXM-SP150 will result in a launch of this commercial, off-the-shelf space camera in Q2 of 2023.

We continued to invest in our iX Suite software for higher productivity and flexibility. Our software SDK partnerships was also expanded significantly.

Looking forward, the patent pending Fusion Shutter™ technology, expected to be launched in 2023, will combine the global shutter technology with Phase One's existing, industry leading mechanical shutter technology to overcome limitations and open new applications for aerial imaging. Development is ongoing for this solution.

Heritage continued to grow mainly through the matured unique Multi-Spectral Imaging solutions. Also Phase One's ultra-high resolution medium format camera systems remain unique within the professional and high-end photo enthusiast photographic market. Activities in Bespoke Photography in 2022 have been mostly focused on lens integration projects and firmware feature updates for the IQ4 digital back family. * Source: Phase One A/S Annual Report 2022 approved by Executive Board May 25, 2023.

Unfortunately the annual losses, which began in 2019, continue to accumulate for Phase One Group ApS (Phase One + Capture One Divisions) with 2022 posting revenue of €77.8 million and a pretax loss of €10.6 million. In the 3-1/2 years since Axcel acquired Phase One Group ApS, the annual losses now total just over €45 million. The Capture One division, however, continues to produce steady profits.

Other companies in the digital imaging business have also experienced successive multi-year losses and turned their fortunes around, so a turnaround for Phase One is quite possible. Perhaps Axcel has a plan which will make that happen and is absorbing losses in reaching their end goal or it's possible a sale to a new owner could turn things around with investment in new products. Only time will tell as the future in the digital imaging business is notoriously hard to predict.

 

[TechTalk]

As a strategy, that strikes me as self-defeating. How many people who can afford to buy new will choose to buy this kind of electronic goods used?

I may be wrong, but I suspect a healthy used market would actually be better for P1 in many ways because it would mean a larger ecosystem, simply by providing a lower price of entry for the well-heeled curious. Or is that market so small, it wouldn’t offset the losses from people who wold buy new stepping down to buying used?

The upgrade/trade-in offer is a positive sign that there is still enough active consumer interest in the product category to generate a promotion of this kind. A wide variety of preferences exist among photographers and it's always good to have more ways to satisfy them.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Thanks TechTalk for posting this excerpt. Few thoughts:

1) The fact that the group including C1 (because this must be the profitable pearl of the group) generates such losses is telling in the sense that it explains why the business is saving costs on every end, including in the photo division where they are closing down leaf, firing direct sales reps in Germany, not investing in new products, etc.

2) Without a detailed breakdown within Phase One between the sub-businesses it is hard to tell how much of these losses are in which business area and how much of it also relates to a transition period towards a B2B solution provider which takes time (R&D and investments depending on the accounting standard would most likely be capitalized, so the losses on a cash flow basis might be higher)

3) 10m is not such a big number anymore and - if markets pick up and their B2B solutions come to market - this could quickly swing into the positive. Private equity is usually very smart money, so there is a plan in place to become profitable and this should give consumers on the photo side the confidence that they'll survive although atm no investments are being made as they are on the photo business side dependent on Sony to come up with an new sensor

4) Global shutter – as per my conversations with people in the industry the GS solution for the aerial business cannot be used in photography as it comes with negative DR impact; I would therefore expect that if we ever see a GS in the IQ range that it would have to come with a new sensor and related read-out electronics which in the size of the current chassis of the IQ backs (depth and width) and it looks like that from an R&D perspective this is not to be expected anytime soon (as I read their statement to be focused on industrial solutions where DR is less important where you have more room in designing the size of the hardware)

All in all I find it encouraging to see that they are close to the profitability threshold and I would think this or next year they are positive again which is the time where we can expect new investments in photo hardware, I would guess ...

 

[kdphotography]

The IQ4 was marketed as the "Infinity Platform" and the MFDB with a computer "Capture One" inside----to allow for updates, new features, etc. I'm glad that the IQ4 150 has been such a reliable workhorse for me. I know that initially it was slow to roll out features for the XF camera body, but for most it was still a great combination from the start. And for technical camera users, the IQ4 is perfect. My IQ4150 with Cambo WRS1600 gives me the most photographic enjoyment. The Fuji GFX is a great complement, but just pales in comparison for photographic enjoyment.

My current Phase One systems work great. And this is all fortunately very good. Because with the fairly recent changes at Phase One, I feel like Phase has abandoned its loyal MFDB clientele of photographers. Phase has made it abundantly clear that in its pursuit of profits, MFDB users are more of an after thought---low priority. Maybe we'll see some improvements to the IQ4 platform using the "infinity platform." For me---seeing how Phase One is currently conducting business--- it is a resounding NO to buying a prospective IQ5. And this is from a dedicated photographer coming from the deepest levels of Dante's Inferno, sporting a lineage of ownership of seven MFDBs.

Ken

 

[f8orbust]

"bite their hand off" I am not getting this? I would be kissing their hand.

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/...ml#:~:text=Explanation:,your hand off with it!

 

[ThdeDude]

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/poetry-literature/946135-bite-his-hand-off.html#:~:text=Explanation:,your hand off with it!

OK, thanks.

"to bite someone's hand off" means to be in such a hurry to take what they're offering that you snatch it out of his hand, like a dog who is so eager to get the biscuit that he bites your hand off with it!

 

[ThdeDude]

... the IQ4 is perfect. My IQ4150 with Cambo WRS1600 gives me the most photographic enjoyment. The Fuji GFX is a great complement, but just pales in comparison for photographic enjoyment.

But for the second paragraph sounded like a "brand ambassador".

 

[hcubell]

Thanks TechTalk for posting this excerpt. Few thoughts:

10m is not such a big number anymore and - if markets pick up and their B2B solutions come to market - this could quickly swing into the positive. Private equity is usually very smart money, so there is a plan in place to become profitable and this should give consumers on the photo side the confidence that they'll survive although atm no investments are being made as they are on the photo business side dependent on Sony to come up with an new sensor


All in all I find it encouraging to see that they are close to the profitability threshold and I would think this or next year they are positive again which is the time where we can expect new investments in photo hardware, I would guess ...

If the Capture One software business segment has been throwing off consistently significant profits and yet the group as a whole has lost 45m over the past three years, what does that say about the actual extent of the losses in the photography-related business segment?