FYI: Phase One BP-9xx battery issues

[docholliday]

Thanks for all the great info Doc! I will certainly follow your recommendations. I'm also planning to do the hard reset process you mentioned earlier in this discussion on both my P20+ and P25+ backs to minimize the battery discharge while the backs are not in use. My only question/concern is about doing the firmware update during that process. I haven't had to update the firmware on either of these DBs since they already had the latest firmware when I bought them. I'll figure that out before I start the hard reset process of course.

Gary

I'm not sure if the multiple hard resets will solve the issue for the P series backs (I don't have a P series). I know it works on the IQ quite well. I've had the same battery sitting in my backup IQ250 for over 4 months now and it's still at 90% when I powered it on a minute ago. Just be sure that you can get the newest version before you reset...in case the files can't be found anymore. The trick to the IQ was to do it twice and reset to defaults each time before the final settings reconfig/reload. I don't think that it'd do any harm to try though.

BTW, this is how I label my batteries in case you were wondering...Battery number, date entered into service, max voltage at new, source of battery, initials. I keep the charge capacity in a log kept next to the charger for easy reference based on the B-xx id number.

 

[bensonga]

The TC200-i-TDM I ordered arrived this afternoon. Dolgin shipped it to me via Fedex next day air, even though I was only charged for FedEx 2nd day air.

Doc, Jacob and Ray....you are absolutely right, the build quality of this charger is first rate, certainly much better than any other charger I own or have seen. It will be reassuring to have complete confidence in the battery charger for my P20+ and P25+. If I encounter any problems in the years ahead with the batteries or power to the backs, at least I know the charger is unlikely to be the cause. In addition to the two P+ backs I also have a Leaf Aptus II 5 and a Hasselblad CFV-16II which unfortunately use different batteries. My biggest concern with the longevity of these digital backs has always been the power supplies, both the batteries and chargers.

Doc — I really like your battery labeling system and I will most likely emulate it. I need to figure out how to make those labels. I think my wife has a labeling machine of some sort, but it is unlikely to be flexible enough for labels like yours. I would appreciate knowing how you create them.

Thanks again!

Gary

 

[docholliday]

The TC200-i-TDM I ordered arrived this afternoon. Dolgin shipped it to me via Fedex next day air, even though I was only charged for FedEx 2nd day air.

Doc, Jacob and Ray....you are absolutely right, the build quality of this charger is first rate, certainly much better than any other charger I own or have seen. It will be reassuring to have complete confidence in the battery charger for my P20+ and P25+. If I encounter any problems in the years ahead with the batteries or power to the backs, at least I know the charger is unlikely to be the cause. In addition to the two P+ backs I also have a Leaf Aptus II 5 and a Hasselblad CFV-16II which unfortunately use different batteries. My biggest concern with the longevity of these digital backs has always been the power supplies, both the batteries and chargers.

Doc — I really like your battery labeling system and I will most likely emulate it. I need to figure out how to make those labels. I think my wife has a labeling machine of some sort, but it is unlikely to be flexible enough for labels like yours. I would appreciate knowing how you create them.

Thanks again!

Gary

The other nice thing about the Dolgin is the availability of replacement parts - and the ability for you to 1) order parts to replace yourself, economically or 2) send to them for "full service" repair at a reasonable price. The battery plates are completely replaceable - to other manufacturer standards or simply if broken. I had two older style plates on mine that were broken. $30 for two new style plates and mine was "updated" to current spec. The grade of the internal components are also of the highest caliber, none of the "hobbyist" grade parts in most chargers (I'm talkin' about those Hahnels). Replacement power adapters also available. And I'm sure the case won't ever wear out!

I have a Brother Embellish Elite - it's probably like the one that your wife has for labeling. The Embellish can take the 1" wide labels whereas the normal Brother labelers only take up to 1/2". The Brother labelers can do all sorts of things from paper labels to weather/chemical proof laminated labels to ribbons and foil. You can use a phone app via Bluetooth to create your label or hook it up via USB. The desktop app gives much more options, including pictures and barcodes. I'm using a 1" laminated black-on-white label for those. Use the app to create a "new blank label", then add rows of text and adjust the font size til it fits, center the alignment on the label - it handles just like MS Word. The 1" labels fit the end of the battery almost perfectly.

If her labeler is a Brother, then the desktop software is most likely the "P-Touch Editor".

The other thing that's nice about the Dolgin is their upgrade service. If you get a different battery that they support, you can send your charger back to them to upgrade/sidegrade to match the specs and plates to the new brand for a reasonable fee.

I'm sure the Dolgin will probably outlive all the P1 backs, even the IQ4. As long as C1 keeps selling their house battery and the Dolgin is working, I think you'll be able to use those backs for many years to come.

 

[vieri]

Hey Doc,

I have been looking at better battery chargers for my Phase One batteries, and I have a question for you. I understand and appreciate the extra features of the TCD400-TDM, but under a purely "bang for the buck" point of view, wouldn't it be more convenient to get, say, the TC40 at around 400 US versus the TCD400 at nearly 800 US, which would leave you enough cash to get 8-10 more batteries? It seems to me that, other than the diagnostic, the TC40 should charge batteries well (according to Dolgin at least) and simply trash and replace batteries when they start holding less charge?

I understand that when you got a Phase kit 7-800 US is an acceptable sum to keep your batteries in good shape, and I never skimp on gear I use for work, but there is just something in me that makes it very difficult to accept that a battery charger could cost that much money and I am not sure whether I really need all the diagnostics in the end

Any thoughts would be much appreciated, thank you. Best regards,

Vieri

 

[docholliday]

Hey Doc,

I have been looking at better battery chargers for my Phase One batteries, and I have a question for you. I understand and appreciate the extra features of the TCD400-TDM, but under a purely "bang for the buck" point of view, wouldn't it be more convenient to get, say, the TC40 at around 400 US versus the TCD400 at nearly 800 US, which would leave you enough cash to get 8-10 more batteries? It seems to me that, other than the diagnostic, the TC40 should charge batteries well (according to Dolgin at least) and simply trash and replace batteries when they start holding less charge?

I understand that when you got a Phase kit 7-800 US is an acceptable sum to keep your batteries in good shape, and I never skimp on gear I use for work, but there is just something in me that makes it very difficult to accept that a battery charger could cost that much money and I am not sure whether I really need all the diagnostics in the end

Any thoughts would be much appreciated, thank you. Best regards,

Vieri

Yes, any of the Dolgin chargers would be worth it. I got my TC400 at < $100 originally with some broken plates. If you watch auctions (both online and physical), you'll find a lot of them when rental houses close out. You can get one for a Sony (the most popular) and change plates for Canon/P1. Dolgin also has "cosmetically imperfect" models listed for a healthy sum off a retail unit. I don't mind those as I'll probably scratch the hell out of it the first time I use it.

In my case, I'd have paid full price for a fully outfitted TDM version, no matter what the cost. The ability to diagnose a pack when I want is worth much more than the few hundred dollars. Even new batteries can have bad cells, which usually manifest by showing great life for a dozen or so cycles before unexpectedly going stupid. I had one battery (not for P1, but a Canon LP-E4N) that had a bad cell internally. It'd charge up full, show full on camera, but around 80% or so would suddenly dive to 20% or dead. The battery was new. Luckily, I was using it on vacation and not on a job. I put it on the Canon charger, hit the "Calibrate" button and let it run for a day. It showed perfect afterwards... and then did it again the next outing. Had a few backups, but if it was a long trip/job, I'd been down one pack.

I also have about 2 dozen batteries for P1 - so it's nice to know which ones are needing replaced before actually trying to use it and finding out it's going bad. I'm often shooting in locations where external power/chargers/cords is simply unavailable or considered a hazard and I burn batteries like I did 120 film during a wedding back in the day. Hence, the 4 pack *simultaneous* charger being worth it's weight in gold.

I hear ya on getting the TC40 and just replacing batteries as they act up. But, as finicky as the P1 backs are, how would you diagnostically know that it's a battery acting up vs the back/firmware? By having the display capability of the TC400, it eliminates one variable out of the equation so that if a battery burns quick, I'll be able to verify if it's a battery failing or something got stuck on the DB. This has happened a few times - LV was used, then turned off, but the battery died quickly. At first, it looked like a weak battery. Turns out the back was somehow consuming excessive power; something was still ramped up and not cycling down in the back. Did a battery pull, put in a fresh battery, and all was well. Put the suspect battery on charger next chance I got and monitored the charge value - it was still good.

For a hobbyist, I'd definitely say the TC40 is plenty (or even the TC200, not the -i, but the "barebones" model). As a production shooter, I don't mind the extra sheckles as to me, it's another tool and an investment. The piece-of-mind is worth the extra bucks for a one-time payment instead of face-palming stupidly during a job when something dumb happens (and it always will if you give it the chance).

Anyhow, yes, any of the Dolgin chargers are worth their weight in gold. It's all about what "features" you need/want, how much you really want to monitor your batteries, how often you need to charge, and how quickly you need dead batteries ready again. If these P1 batteries were "smart" with built-in monitoring, I'd be a bit less detailed, but since they're dumb, I like to know what they're doing before they do it!

 

[vieri]

Yes, any of the Dolgin chargers would be worth it. I got my TC400 at < $100 originally with some broken plates. If you watch auctions (both online and physical), you'll find a lot of them when rental houses close out. You can get one for a Sony (the most popular) and change plates for Canon/P1. Dolgin also has "cosmetically imperfect" models listed for a healthy sum off a retail unit. I don't mind those as I'll probably scratch the hell out of it the first time I use it.

In my case, I'd have paid full price for a fully outfitted TDM version, no matter what the cost. The ability to diagnose a pack when I want is worth much more than the few hundred dollars. Even new batteries can have bad cells, which usually manifest by showing great life for a dozen or so cycles before unexpectedly going stupid. I had one battery (not for P1, but a Canon LP-E4N) that had a bad cell internally. It'd charge up full, show full on camera, but around 80% or so would suddenly dive to 20% or dead. The battery was new. Luckily, I was using it on vacation and not on a job. I put it on the Canon charger, hit the "Calibrate" button and let it run for a day. It showed perfect afterwards... and then did it again the next outing. Had a few backups, but if it was a long trip/job, I'd been down one pack.

I also have about 2 dozen batteries for P1 - so it's nice to know which ones are needing replaced before actually trying to use it and finding out it's going bad. I'm often shooting in locations where external power/chargers/cords is simply unavailable or considered a hazard and I burn batteries like I did 120 film during a wedding back in the day. Hence, the 4 pack *simultaneous* charger being worth it's weight in gold.

I hear ya on getting the TC40 and just replacing batteries as they act up. But, as finicky as the P1 backs are, how would you diagnostically know that it's a battery acting up vs the back/firmware? By having the display capability of the TC400, it eliminates one variable out of the equation so that if a battery burns quick, I'll be able to verify if it's a battery failing or something got stuck on the DB. This has happened a few times - LV was used, then turned off, but the battery died quickly. At first, it looked like a weak battery. Turns out the back was somehow consuming excessive power; something was still ramped up and not cycling down in the back. Did a battery pull, put in a fresh battery, and all was well. Put the suspect battery on charger next chance I got and monitored the charge value - it was still good.

For a hobbyist, I'd definitely say the TC40 is plenty (or even the TC200, not the -i, but the "barebones" model). As a production shooter, I don't mind the extra sheckles as to me, it's another tool and an investment. The piece-of-mind is worth the extra bucks for a one-time payment instead of face-palming stupidly during a job when something dumb happens (and it always will if you give it the chance).

Anyhow, yes, any of the Dolgin chargers are worth their weight in gold. It's all about what "features" you need/want, how much you really want to monitor your batteries, how often you need to charge, and how quickly you need dead batteries ready again. If these P1 batteries were "smart" with built-in monitoring, I'd be a bit less detailed, but since they're dumb, I like to know what they're doing before they do it!

Hello Doc,

thank you for the detailed reply, that is truly much appreciated. Let me try and comment following your order.

- Used / Dolgin pre-loved: that's a great suggestion, thanks for that. I checked on the Italian version of the site-that-sells-on-auction, and it seems that Dolgin will ship here no problem on their refurb units, which is good; that makes the TC400 a much less painful option

- I see the point re: being able to check whether the battery is good or not, especially for production jobs (I assume that's what you do, from what you wrote). To me, as a landscape photographer, I think that'd be less of a problem; what I mean is, if a battery fails on me faster than expected, as long as I have a spare in my bag I am fine, no harm done (and I have 12 batteries at present time)

- About being able to charge 4 batteries at the same time, that's truly fundamental for me - in fact, it is more important to have a 4-batteries charging solution, rather than a TC200 (-i or barebones) with the screen and all, since I need all batteries to be fully charged every day, and when I am traveling for photography I am not in my hotel room for too long, during the day (if I am in a hotel room at all);

So, at this point the choice would be between a TC40 and a TC400, possibly refurb, since I am not really concerned about scuff marks and the like, and since they'll give me 2 years warranty with that anyway.

Thank you very much again for your detailed answers and for your help! Have a great day, best regards

Vieri

 

[Ray Harrison]

I purchased a "cosmetically imperfect" TC400 from them for about $200 off the base price - it's fantastic and I can't actually see any imperfections (not that it would matter to me). Worth it whichever price in my mind.

 

[docholliday]

Hello Doc,

thank you for the detailed reply, that is truly much appreciated. Let me try and comment following your order.

- Used / Dolgin pre-loved: that's a great suggestion, thanks for that. I checked on the Italian version of the site-that-sells-on-auction, and it seems that Dolgin will ship here no problem on their refurb units, which is good; that makes the TC400 a much less painful option

- I see the point re: being able to check whether the battery is good or not, especially for production jobs (I assume that's what you do, from what you wrote). To me, as a landscape photographer, I think that'd be less of a problem; what I mean is, if a battery fails on me faster than expected, as long as I have a spare in my bag I am fine, no harm done (and I have 12 batteries at present time)

- About being able to charge 4 batteries at the same time, that's truly fundamental for me - in fact, it is more important to have a 4-batteries charging solution, rather than a TC200 (-i or barebones) with the screen and all, since I need all batteries to be fully charged every day, and when I am traveling for photography I am not in my hotel room for too long, during the day (if I am in a hotel room at all);

So, at this point the choice would be between a TC40 and a TC400, possibly refurb, since I am not really concerned about scuff marks and the like, and since they'll give me 2 years warranty with that anyway.

Thank you very much again for your detailed answers and for your help! Have a great day, best regards

Vieri

Glad I could help! It seems that the weakness nowadays on all digital devices is their power source (and especially with P1 stuff). I really miss the ol' days of the V system and never worrying about a battery, but rather forgetting to pack a batch of film. Of course, you could always stop a the numerous camera shops back then and pick up a Propack enroute.

I always like a company that is willing to sell "imperfect" inventory, but still offer full support. That, to me, is a sign of a company that knows and cares about the quality of their gear.

The ability to simultaneously charge all 4 batteries, at full speed, is a definite advantage of the Dolgin chargers. I hate serial chargers (even the LC-E4 for Canon is serial). I rather a company use a bigger power supply and make it work with parallel charging.

When I'm out hiking and shooting, I tend to calculate my space and weight carefully so that I can carry the minimum weight. Besides camera gear, I've got the stove, fuel, water, filters, clothing, tent and bag, and food. If I can reliably make the trip work with a few more batteries (either all the way or at least until the next power source), I'm all for it. I'm not a dedicated landscape shooter, I'm a studio/comp/creatives person, but I'll do fine-art shooting when I'm hiking. 4 less batteries usually makes for one open compartment that I can pack a meter, tube, or food into. But, by crafting my power supply near the limits, I'm more susceptible to one dead battery so I like to watch the batteries more granularly.

I think that you'll be good to go with either model (all of Dolgin's stuff is worth every dime). I'd say to spend the extra bit up front, one time, and get the top model. I've always felt that even if you don't use the extra features now, the one time that you need/want it usually ends up worth it's weight in gold.

 

[bensonga]

This is an example of why I bought a model with the TDM (test) circuitry. The P20+ back I bought recently came with 4 batteries (all rated at 2500 mAh). I knew that two of the batteries were new and had not been used yet but did not know how old the other two batteries were. I ran all 4 batteries thru the TDM charge/discharge/charge test cycle. Three of the four batteries all tested fine (2.4+ AH reported at test completion), but the test reported that one of the batteries of unknown history only took 1.41 AH. I ran the TDM cycle on that battery a second time and got the same result. Bad cell?

 

[docholliday]

This is an example of why I bought a model with the TDM (test) circuitry. The P20+ back I bought recently came with 4 batteries (all rated at 2500 mAh). I knew that two of the batteries were new and had not been used yet but did not know how old the other two batteries were. I ran all 4 batteries thru the TDM charge/discharge/charge test cycle. Three of the four batteries all tested fine (2.4+ AH reported at test completion), but the test reported that one of the batteries of unknown history only took 1.41 AH. I ran the TDM cycle on that battery a second time and got the same result. Bad cell?

View attachment 182447

That's definitely a bad/shorted cell or the battery as a whole is heavily worn. Li-ion batteries are touchy little creatures. Keeping the charge at full all the time kills them, but so does running them way low without recharging, exceeding the drain rates, freezing/overheating, etc. They simply like to be used, but have a limited amount of full charge/discharge cycles they are capable off doing so. Think of the two cells in the batteries like two little hot water heaters that over time start filling up with lime and rust scale (if you've ever lived in a limestone area, like the Midwest, you know exactly how this goes!). The water capacity decreases due to the "crap" build up displacing water capacity and eventually, you'll notice running out of hot water half way through a shower.

That battery was probably either kept charged and sitting around a long time without any usage or simply has a lot of cycles on it. Maybe it was the only battery that was actually used, kept in the back constantly, and maybe the back was tethered a lot and never got unplugged. That battery would probably eventually swell up or start to generate excessive heat during charge.

That's why I love the TDM - knowing exactly what's good and what may possibly cause heaaches/damage/failure further down the road. The other three 2400mah+ charge batteries show they are in perfect condition, as 2400mah on a 2500mah battery is "100%".

I'd probably not use that 1410mah pack - that's over 40% wear on that pack; P1 stuff is known for doing random stupid things with weak power sources. Pop a label on the other 3 with the date and their tested charge capacity, then you'll be able to watch how those cells fare in the future!

BTW, I stand corrected on the labels - I used the 0.7" label, not the 1" label stock. Here's a picture of my labeler loaded with a clear background tape with white text:


And here's how the label was created in the Brother p-Touch Software. The label was set to be 0.88" wide for that "perfect fit" on the end of the battery:


This battery is my 13th battery, came from an unknown source with a 2016 manufacturing date, and tested 2.0ah. It's also indicates it's my lab test battery, not to be used in the field.