Hasselblad 100C and 35XL

[FloatingLens]

Very surprised to also see it with Rodie glass – it means somehow that the tech cam use case hadn't been tested thoroughly or the R&D team didn't have this on their radar somehow which is peculiar. Clearly, it can be used with X or V lenses, but that no one flagged this ...

I don't want to be unfair towards Hasselblad, but they also did not spot the magenta cast issue with XCD 4/28P and X1D(II)/907X. Compatibility testing seems quite limited nowadays with focus on "expected" use cases (that's me just interpreting the facts at time of release).

 

[anyone]

Are those resolved by now?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I'd be curious to know whether the issue presents itself with the V 40 IF at 10mm shift.

I tested a Hasselblad 40mm Distagon T and could not detect any banding after full shift and some file manipulation. Which leads me to conclude that this is an issue that likely only occurs with view camera lenses.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[zngli422420]

This is confirmed to be a band composed of PDAF points, Due to the the CRA mismatch between the lens and the sensor. Can you give me a raw image of the image you displayed for further analysis.

 

[Alkibiades]

the question is if there will be a solution or not. hasselblad did not answer now....

 

[f8orbust]

There is an interim solution - use Raw Therapee or, better still, ART.

My guess would be that the next (major?) release of Phocus resolves the issue.

 

[lookbook]

I am not doubting you, but I am surprised. The dust spot is much more visible than the banding, and an LCC would get rid of the dust perfectly. As for "useless", again, I'm not trying to impose my own (low) standards, but the artifacts in the upper right corner of this



are clearly visible in the print, and not one person has noticed it. This was a flaw in my Leica S(006) that showed up under this (admittedly extreme) post-processing.

I hope Hassy comes out with a fix soon!

Matt

.. perhaps technically imperfect, but it is one of your very good photos!

 

[diggles]

This is confirmed to be a band composed of PDAF points, Due to the the CRA mismatch between the lens and the sensor. Can you give me a raw image of the image you displayed for further analysis.

Just sent a PM with a link to the RAW files.

 

[BigBoy]

Hi Timo, you can edit Hasselblad files in Capture One by using a metadata editor. However, this is a very clunky workflow, and in addition to that, the color is poor compared to the raw file coming through Phocus (or even Adobe). I have not tried creating an LCC with a metadata-modified Hasselblad file in Capture One, not certain if this would work or not.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Would color matter if you're just a black-and-white shooter?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Would color matter if you're just a black-and-white shooter?

If one never shoots in color then I don't see how the color rendering would matter.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Ian Atkinson]

This is an extract from another thread I have been trying to help with. Hope it helps here
Since it was posted and we (I and Linhof and Studio) became aware of an issue I have tested all of the lenses I can get my hands on. The lenses I used in the making of the work (Review of the CFV100C with technical cameras) don't show any signs of banding . 23mm Rodenstock, 70mm Rodenstock. I have since tested with maximum movements the 23mm Rodenstock HR Digaron S, 40mm Rodenstock, 50mm Rodenstock all HRW and non show any signs of banding. I've also tested the 38mm Schnieder XL and this doesn't show any banding either. I can only conclude that it must be an issue with analogue lenses potentially wider than 38mm. I've heard the 35mm Schnieder XL (posted here) shows banding but without testing it and testing multiple copies I can't say whether it is or it isn't an issue.
After someone said they increased the clarity.
I had 20mm of shift and 10mm of rise when conducting the test. The 23mm S had significant cut off at this amount of movements but I did it to see if there were any areas of issue.
I can't see any banding on any of the lenses I tested at normal exposure, however when I increase the clarity to 100% the banding is visible in the top left corner of (20mm shift and 10mm rise) all the lenses I tested, it is significantly more noticeable on the 23mm S Rodenstock. It is also more noticeable on the 38mm XL Schnieder.
Personally I would never introduce this amount of clarity into my own images, but that's not to say some people do and the real question is should you be able to or not.
My guess is that like many of the artefacts that are in digital files the manipulation of the image causes them to be more noticeable in certain situations. Not ideal but it is the nature of the technology. I still think this is the best digital back I've used and I shoot predominantly on a Phaseone IQ3100 on my Techno.
My work around would be not use clarity beyond 20% and perhaps never on skies, again not ideal to some.
Hope this helps.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

This is an extract from another thread I have been trying to help with. Hope it helps here
Since it was posted and we (I and Linhof and Studio) became aware of an issue I have tested all of the lenses I can get my hands on. The lenses I used in the making of the work (Review of the CFV100C with technical cameras) don't show any signs of banding . 23mm Rodenstock, 70mm Rodenstock. I have since tested with maximum movements the 23mm Rodenstock HR Digaron S, 40mm Rodenstock, 50mm Rodenstock all HRW and non show any signs of banding. I've also tested the 38mm Schnieder XL and this doesn't show any banding either. I can only conclude that it must be an issue with analogue lenses potentially wider than 38mm. I've heard the 35mm Schnieder XL (posted here) shows banding but without testing it and testing multiple copies I can't say whether it is or it isn't an issue.
After someone said they increased the clarity.
I had 20mm of shift and 10mm of rise when conducting the test. The 23mm S had significant cut off at this amount of movements but I did it to see if there were any areas of issue.
I can't see any banding on any of the lenses I tested at normal exposure, however when I increase the clarity to 100% the banding is visible in the top left corner of (20mm shift and 10mm rise) all the lenses I tested, it is significantly more noticeable on the 23mm S Rodenstock. It is also more noticeable on the 38mm XL Schnieder.
Personally I would never introduce this amount of clarity into my own images, but that's not to say some people do and the real question is should you be able to or not.
My guess is that like many of the artefacts that are in digital files the manipulation of the image causes them to be more noticeable in certain situations. Not ideal but it is the nature of the technology. I still think this is the best digital back I've used and I shoot predominantly on a Phaseone IQ3100 on my Techno.
My work around would be not use clarity beyond 20% and perhaps never on skies, again not ideal to some.
Hope this helps.

I would agree to an extent, Ian. The point of the aggressive adjustment is to see if something is there, and it does reveal it. That a few other raw conversion programs have managed to eliminate the effect points to the fact there is something that can be done about it at the development level. I don't think that Hasselblad should be allowed to leave this issue un-resolved in the hope that their users will be moderate in their adjustments. I don't like to bridle creativity, and I never assume what my clients may need to do to create their work.

But also, I still see different results, where I can see the lines easily. I've attached screenshots from Rodenstock 40HR, shifted 15mm left and 10mm rise. This is with only a 1 stop exposure adjustment to raise the level of the dark vignetted corner. And no clarity or contrast adjustment at all. It's subtle, but you can see it. And it would certainly show in many common scenes.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Godfrey]

Nothing is ever completely perfect. Even a significant, severe defect in a camera on some edge cases does not mean that the camera is bad, it means "avoid those edge cases if you can." That's my attitude.

G

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Nothing is ever completely perfect. Even a significant, severe defect in a camera on some edge cases does not mean that the camera is bad, it means "avoid those edge cases if you can." That's my attitude.

G

Yes, I agree, nothing is perfect. But I have clients who depend on this equipment for their livelihood, have been using similar equipment in similar ways for years, and have not had this issue previously. Avoiding using the camera this way is not an option for them.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[ruebe]

Nothing is ever completely perfect. Even a significant, severe defect in a camera on some edge cases does not mean that the camera is bad, it means "avoid those edge cases if you can." That's my attitude.

G

my attitude is: the marketing team choose to pack this specific „edge case“ into the trifecta claim. so they better make it right. i bought the cfv 100c solely for tech cam use. if hasselblad offers a timely solution i might think of a twofold use case for myself with a xcd lens …

 

[ruebe]

… and i think the here discussed phenomena has nothing to do with pushing sliders (of course the pattern can be exaggerated by doing so), i gladly offer untouched raw files to anybody who wants to see the sensor „stripes“ in question produced by a schneider wide angle. also hasselblad admitted to me that there is such a problem and that they will act on it

 

[Steve Hendrix]

… and i think the here discussed phenomena has nothing to do with pushing sliders (of course the pattern can be exaggerated by doing so), i gladly offer untouched raw files to anybody who wants to see the sensor „stripes“ in question produced by a schneider wide angle. also hasselblad admitted to me that there is such a problem and that they will act on it

Yes, and in the attached screenshot from my previous post, it's pretty easy to see the lines and this is with no contrast adjustments at all. With Rodenstock 40HR, and not even that extreme a shift. And once you see them, you can't unsee them.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[TechTalk]

Yes, I agree, nothing is perfect. But I have clients who depend on this equipment for their livelihood, have been using similar equipment in similar ways for years, and have not had this issue previously. Avoiding using the camera this way is not an option for them.


Steve Hendrix/CI

The option is to avoid using it entirely and use whatever else may best suit their needs. The CFV 100C has inherent limitations, just like every other piece of equipment we use or own, and we choose what works most satisfactorily for our needs.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

The option is to avoid using it entirely and use whatever else may best suit their needs. The CFV 100C has inherent limitations, just like every other piece of equipment we use or own, and we choose what works most satisfactorily for our needs.

Yes, avoiding entirely is an option.

But I generally disagree with the spirit of your response, in this instance. Yes, every product has limitations, but one of the primary purposes of this product is to use it in exactly the way I did today, with a Rodenstock 40 HR-W lens, shifted. That is basic use case for this product. It's nothing exotic, or some kind of extreme use case. It is one of the basic use cases of this product. And the issue has been resolved by some 3rd party software programs. So the way I see it - there's no reason Hasselblad should not respond to this with corrective action and be held accountable to do so. It's one of the primary use cases for this product, it would be like Canon Eye Focus producing image artifacts and saying no product is perfect.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Godfrey]

I guess that being a Hasselblad user but not a tech cam user limits my appreciation of the horrors of this problem. For that reason, I'll offer no more opinion on this topic, which seems to my perspectives to be a very niche use problem.

It does, however, put the question in my head, "I wonder how well the CFV 100C works with the ArcBody?" since the ArcBody is/was available with Rodenstock APO-Gradagon 35, 45, and 75 mm view camera lenses., and whether the same issue surfaces with these lenses.

G