IQ5 rumors

[buildbot]

So which Nanometer mask would apply for a modded 811?

So CPU wise you are saying we are stuck with the same old system?

Super frustrating that we are facing the prospect of 3:2. It’s horrible. I have gotten so accustomed to 54x40.

No idea, Sony doesn’t share what process their sensors are made on. Could be 90, which is very old, or 65 which is also old, or even 45? I really don’t know. The pixel size is still 2 orders of magnitude bigger than 90nm.

Masks are not the only part, packaging, testing, all need to be redone slightly per design. Semiconductor manufacturing is a giant pain. At my (not my team though directly) they literally built a Robotic system totally bespoke to test each die coming out of TSMC:

Sony will have something like this for image sensors. They might need to change it for a larger one, or not. The point is that it’s very very expensive to customize a design even slightly.

Also, semiconductor design times are much longer than people realize. The choice of 3:2 was probably decided 4 years ago if not longer roadmap wise. Final specs 2 years possibly. (These are all ballpark guesses!) If you have ever built your own computer, you’ll see a copyright date typically on the cpu. It’s typically years before that CPU is marketed!

Maybe, they could change the platform again to use something like the Versal line which is 7nm, but it might not support the slvs-ec protocol that sony uses in their larger sensors (the zync is one of the very rare devices that explicitly does!).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Mulling this over some more ... 3:2 is really not that great if you need or have a strong preference for one-shot - e.g. people in it, moving around, action in it, your crop comes down to 180 MPX on a smaller pixel pitch; I am not sure I'd upgrade for this. If I want to exploit the higher resolution it'll always be multi stitch which is not practical if you want to be sure to have 100% artifact free imagery.

I do not want to always shift a bit up after a shot to get enough megapixels in to get to 275; its also not practical, as said, if you do sth else than landscape, architecture. Also its liberating to do just one shot in critical applications - e.g. fine art gallery prints.

More thoughts on this one? The poll looks super clear. Almost no one seemingly is ok with 3:2 for an IQ5.

We need to relay this super clearly to P1. Upgrading to go from 150 on a "relaxed" pixel pitch to 180 on an tight pitch with shorter focal lengths is not so conpelling IMHO.

If P1 doesn't do 275, the big winner will be 4:3 crop MF. Ie Fuji, Hassy, Leica S4. Going from 100 to 180 is a big win while retaining 4:3.

 

[vjbelle]

I'm probably not alone but I really like 3:2 for my type of images in Landscape position. I very much dislike 3:2 in portrait position. It's moot anyway as I will not be a buyer of this DB - at least at this point. I would be a candidate for the 44X33 variant that will be available in cameras with lots more bells and whistles.

Victor B.

 

[ThdeDude]

I'm probably not alone but I really like 3:2 for my type of images in Landscape position. I very much dislike 3:2 in portrait position.

There is something to be said for 4:3 as a good compromise between 5:4 (4:5 for us 4x5" shooters) and 3:2 (36mm or FF).

 

[hcubell]

If the height of the new sensor is 36mm, what is the largest dimension on the long side of the new sensor that could be used with the native lenses for the X2D or the the GFX?

 

[dchew]

If the height of the new sensor is 36mm, what is the largest dimension on the long side of the new sensor that could be used with the native lenses for the X2D or the the GFX?

I don't know. Not only how big is each lens' image circle, but what sensor diagonal did they design the mount to handle? It looks like the diagonal would go from 55 to 65mm. If they kept a 4:3 ratio by just ignoring the last 3mm of pixels, it would only go up to 60mm (36mm x 48mm sensor size).

Dave

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I am not familiar with the vignetting of the X series lenses (which could be an indicator to the lens designer's specs for IC), but the Leica S lenses are spec''d in a way whereby with the longer lenses you can even illuminate a full 54x40 sensor. As a result, on 45x30, the Leica S lenses have very low vignetting. That is, the 100 2.0 for example illuminates 54x40 with slight vignetting which is not a problem.

Wouldn't be surprised if many X lenses can illuminate 54x36 ... and definitely 48x36 which is like 200 megapixels. This is why 36mm height plays well into the stengths of crop MF systems.

If P1 is at 250 and not 275 while crop MF systems are at 200-220 megapixels, courtesy of Sony producing 33-36mm height crop chips, the Delta between FF @ 3:2 and Crop MF @ 4:3 is really not thaat big anymore due to 3:2 being an inefficient mount use ratio while 4:3 exploits a mount more optimally.

 

[vieri]

I don't know. Not only how big is each lens' image circle, but what sensor diagonal did they design the mount to handle? It looks like the diagonal would go from 55 to 65mm. If they kept a 4:3 ratio by just ignoring the last 3mm of pixels, it would only go up to 60mm (36mm x 48mm sensor size).

Dave

Hey Dave,

I don't know the exact measures of X lenses' image circles, but if vignette is any indicator, back in my Hasselblad X1D days I reviewed all lenses available back then and found it to be pretty well controlled. You can see my reviews here if interested: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/tag/hasselblad

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[Paul Spinnler]

So who's considerung getting the IQ5-250?

Thoughts?

Sensor has been announced, P1 is alive and well, so in all likelihood we'll have it next year ... one shot 250, in a dream scenario 275, is quite sth.!

Happy Sunday!

 

[kdphotography]

So who's considerung getting the IQ5-250?

....

I think before I considered anything "Phase One" at this point, I'd have to receive assurances of dedication/loyalty to the customer---things that at least in my perception have gone missing from Phase One in recent years. And this from a very loyal dedicated Phase One user (and does founding Pigs member count? ) having started my MFDB foray with the old Kodak 645M and purchased no less than six Phase One MFDBs over the years. I am fortunate that I am happy with my IQ4150 and that it has been a reliable MFDB. I will be sitting tight until confidence is restored, and I'm certainly not holding my breath.

ken

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think what will and MUST happen is that they talk to their dealers in the coming months to assess interest and demand, feature requests and during these discussions topics like restoring trust will come up. Business is a two way street in the sense that a lot of P1 customers are high customer lifetime value customers, ie if you sum up the value of a relationship it can reach 100-200k per customer or even more.

To base your sales success solely on the idea that you are the only one on the block with the best sensor is not sth you can bank on in 2024 as alternatives have come to market.

I'd think that this is where you need to "work" (good XT upgrade deals, fair trade-in prices, etc.) with long time customers because there's not thaaat many and everyone lost is an effective loss.

I don't think they will announce development or so because that could impact ongoing XC kit or new IQ4 sales, so at one point there will be just an announcement and some dealer info pages popping up.

Let's see what the future holds. I am very curious – they now have a chance for a great comeback if it is executed well.

I hope they come through. Would love to see a great IQ5.

54x40 and 275 would be an immediate upgrade.

 

[Mexecutioner]

It is exciting, yes. I don't know if I want to put in another $25K into the hobby for a new back, specially after they took forever to fulfill many promises with the IQ4 and some remain unresolved to this day. The itch may be impossible not to scratch, so time will tell...

 

[vjbelle]

I wonder if Phase will 'Now' come out with two backs - a 33X44 and larger variant. It isn't as though the 33X44 size is something to scoff at. They would, of course, charge more than Hasselblad - maybe double - but it took a really long time for Hasselblad to finally come out with their DB and if history repeats itself then Phase would have years of being the only player in town for a DB in any size. Why would they pass up those sales? They've been down the 33X44 size before....

Victor B.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I am not sure they will as Hasselblad could do the same and undercut them.

The larger the sensor, the more expensive it is for a manufacturer to include it into an offering and hit certain price points. Hassy is at 8k. That's low.

With competition at 8k for 44x33 it is not worthwhile for them to go down that path. It would mean a whole different focus on volume and cost efficiency. 56x36 most likely so expensive a sub-10k back is not even feasible ... so better to keep the offering premium and slap a fat margin on top. Not sure they'd sell a lot of heavily marked up 44x33 if Hassy is at 8k. If it is exact the same sensor – would you pay 18k instead of 8k, assuming PDAF has been fixed? Not sure people would do that to use C1 or run x shutter lenses.

Better to focus on 45 / 25k price points with a healthy margin and keep it exclusive with a monster sensor.

IMHO they just need to take the off the shelf product Sony makes, update components and sell it fro same price as always.

IG5-250, 54x36 for 48k retail, 25k upgrade. Sth like that.

"Retail backs" in shopping malls is Hasselblad's business. Making a profit of 1-2k per back doesn't mae sense for a company like Phase. Their main business is B2B / aerial imaging.

I bet it will remain highly expensive and exclusive. They've clearly chosen to be in the ultra segment and B2B and exclusively sell via pro dealers.

0 chance of that changing, I am afraid. Backs are at this stage a side business for them which needs to be profitable for every item sold – which is possible given there are enough enthusiasts still globally after this kind of stuff.

 

[ThdeDude]

No April Fools' Day prank of an announced IQ5!

I guess, no one would believe it in the first place.

 

[buildbot]

I wonder if Phase will 'Now' come out with two backs - a 33X44 and larger variant. It isn't as though the 33X44 size is something to scoff at. They would, of course, charge more than Hasselblad - maybe double - but it took a really long time for Hasselblad to finally come out with their DB and if history repeats itself then Phase would have years of being the only player in town for a DB in any size. Why would they pass up those sales? They've been down the 33X44 size before....

Victor B.

I had a thought about this along those lines - I bet we see a 3:2 IQ5 High res version, and then an IQ5 150 full frame version, just like we had a BSI IQ4 and an older 100mp FSI IQ4.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Makes no sense if Hasselblad can take the same crop sensor and sell it for 8k over the counter in shopping malls.

The whole point of P1 was to be the only one selling the large chip …

 

[buildbot]

Makes no sense if Hasselblad can take the same crop sensor and sell it for 8k over the counter in shopping malls.

The whole point of P1 was to be the only one selling the large chip …

Right, so they sell 54x40mm with newer stuff, same res, and 54x36mm or whatever the new sensor is with high res. No 44x33 probably, unless they feel like having a "cheap" back to compete for the CFV 100c spot.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think that would make more sense although a re packaged IQ4 wouldn’t help them sell a lot to be honest. I wouldn’t pay 20k for faster WiFi.

If they bring out an IQ5 275 that would be a different matter.

54x36 … not sure. It is inconvenient for stitching and the 4:3 format is one of the main reasons I love MFD.

 

[Jacob Buchowski]

54x36 … not sure. It is inconvenient for stitching and the 4:3 format is one of the main reasons I love MFD.

Agree 100%. Hope they can make the chip in 54x40.