IQ5 rumors

[eisbaer]

Just saw in some threads that some of you think an IQ5 200 is in the works? Are there any clear hints? As by example there is no Sony roadmap asfaik showing a successor of the 150MP 54x40 Sensor. And this would be the base of any 200 MP IQ. Any other credible hints?

thanks
Frank

 

[P. Chong]

I asked my local Phase One rep...he said he knows nothing of an IQ5 being in the works.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

A local P1 rep won't know and won't tell you. They are often the last to know. But all signs point to further development of the IQ line. Not imminently, but more like 25 an onward.

So the strategy now should bec to buy a used IQ4 and trade up in the future.

All signs point towards the division having a new growth target with increased cadence / investments in XT product launches including even an electronic short barrel adapter and a new nomenclature for self branded lenses (!) and there are still more to come this year. Expect 90 Tilt SB, new XC products, potentially a long awaited larger XT camera.

All high res cameras globally now work off of the same Sony chip design with the same pixel pitch - 35mm = 60 MPX, crop MF 100 MPX, IQ4 = 150 MPX.

For the next gen everyone needs Sony to release a new BSI chip with high res and there have been higher pixel pitch sensors shown already years ago. Not only P1, but also Sony itself, Leica and Panasonic will need a higher pixel pitch to do 80 megapixel, 130 megapixel and 200 megapixel systems to sell the next gen of products.

It is a rumour, but as soon as Sony moves onto the next gen and samples a higher pixel density it is very likely that there will be an IQ5.

That's why now buying used is the sensible thing.

It depends on supply chain and availability of components and as is known, supply chain shocks have been quite common over the last years.

Sony already sampled a 130 megapixel crop MF sensor, albeit non-BSI (its 127 megapixels, so the 120 title is misleading). On the scale of 54x40mm this corresponds roughly to 200 megapixels.

http://thenewcamera.com/sony-120mp-medium-format-sensor-with-global-shutter/

IMHO it is very likely that we'll see a higher res IQ5, depending on Sony's priorities, based on a higher pixel pitch. Its the next step in BSI tech for all formats.

Its not an imminent thing, so in the meantime you can buy the new XT tilt lenses ...

 

[ThdeDude]

I have been thinking hard about this myself. In effect, I have been waiting for a IQ5 since years. If I would have known that we still be waiting (hoping) in 2024 I might have swallowed the pill and bought a IQ4 years ago.

Might be helpful to look what the closest competitor, Hasselblad, is doing. HB launched the X system with two different camera systems in mind: The X camera being an integrated camera and the CFV being a modular system working with the old V cameras and with a new 907X camera body. Both apparently quite successful. New iterations are more or less developed together. Now we are at the third generation (X1D-50C, X1D-50C Mark II, X2D-100C; CFV-50C, CFV-50C Mark II, CFV-100C). In the meantime the H system was discontinued. Looking at the release dates, and assuming that it can be extrapolated to the next generation, we will see a X2D-100C Mark II perhaps together with a CFV-100C Mark II at the end of next year.

With the introduction of 100MB mirrorless Fujifilm and Hasselblad cameras, there are now more modern, better priced alternatives to the "mirror" PhaseOne XF, which now also getting conceptually obsolete. Without also new mirrorless PhaseOne XF and new lenses for a mirrorless PhaseOne XF would it make business sense for P1 to bring out a new IQ5. But would a mirrorless PhaseOne XF and new lenses make business sense for P1 in view of the current competition? (I assume here that the XT and XC are specialized niche cameras not adding much to the bottom line).

The silver lining here for technical camera users is that we at least can reasonably expect a CFV-100C Mark II at the end of next year.

 

[drevil]

The silver lining here for technical camera users is that we at least can reasonably expect a CFV-100C Mark II at the end of next year.

mark my word, NO
the only mark II versions were the CFV50(as it was a new sensor(ccd to cmos) if i recall correctly) and the X1D-50II(a necessary electronic overhaul)

i think there will be no X2D II or CFV100 II as they are pretty much on a good competitive level, when there is a new sensor(sony has a 44x33 130mp in the pipeline i think) it will carry that name

 

[Phase V]

Well, here is it:

Sony Develops New 247-Megapixel Medium Format Sensor

Will they be used in future medium-format cameras?

petapixel.com

 

[ThdeDude]

there will be no X2D II or CFV100 II as they are pretty much on a good competitive level

For example, neither the X2D 100C nor the CFV 100C have:

- two exposure (highlight, shadow) averaging, like IQ4's Dual EXP+, and

- long exposure shot averaging, like IQ4's automatic frame averaging.

I might have bought the CFV 100C if it would have had these two features.

Also no pixel shifting like the Fujifilm.

 

[drevil]

all possible with FW updates, except pixelshift

 

[ThdeDude]

Well, here is it:

Sony Develops New 247-Megapixel Medium Format Sensor

Will they be used in future medium-format cameras?

petapixel.com

Just released today.

"Even at 16-bit output, the sensor promises to record 247-megapixel photos at 5.3 frames per second."

Not quite fast enough for no rolling shutter issues but certainly an improvement.

 

[f8orbust]

3:2 image ratio - no thanks.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

See ... we'll see an IQ5-200-250 ... like I mentioned already a long time ago. My bet is on 2025.

The rumors have been swirling around for two years, including from dealers for a 200+ back, since Sony showed off 130 megapixel crop (which is 200 full frame) and this is basically now the confirmation / outlining of how the IQ5 could shape up, permitting DR and size can be balanced well for photo (which I am sure is possible).

The format can still be 54x40mm ...

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE TO SELL AN IQ4 NOW.

With such a chip P1 will again be ahead of the curve on all levels and if they finally fix the SoC, meaning faster readout, I/O, new batteries, etc. we'll have an incredible tool.

Especially combined with Alpa or XT native X shutter glass this one is going to rock.

If they shrink the pixel pitch, we'll potentially also see the S4 at 130-150 megapixels. I hear F2 APO optics across the range and next-gen AF ...

Amazing times guys ...

200-250 MPX should also work well with all Rodie HR and late-stage SK XL lenses; I mean SK glass to this day creates almost Moiré with their wide-angles on the large chip (43, 60 XL).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

@Steve Hendrix: Should you speak over the coming months with P1, pls. share some community feedback on the IQ5 wishlist:

+ Keep medium format crop ratio of P1 (which is closer to large format's 4x5 than 35mm wide aspect)
+ No PDAF so we stay compatible with tech cam glass
+ Better I/O – latest gen Wifi AND Bluetooth for file transfer and triggering
+ SoC - enough "oomph" for all the beloved features like FRA, etc., but also faster shooting and concurrent I/O
+ More "oomph" battery wise
+ Legendary P1 build (splash resistance, etc.), but somehow ability to connect an EVF somewhere
+ Trade up with IQ4 max 25k
+ Better screen, potentially tiltable (if ruggedness and weather sealing can be maintained)

200-250 megapixels and we're good! Especially with a refreshed XT tilt range and large shift body and potentially universal XC for compact shooting.

This is going to be a dream with optics like the 60 XL ...

 

[BFD]

I would think if an IQ5 was in development it would come with a whole new mirrorless system if they really are serious about staying in the medium format game. I don't see them putting more effort into the XF system.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

@Steve Hendrix: Should you speak over the coming months with P1, pls. share some community feedback on the IQ5 wishlist:

+ Keep medium format crop ratio of P1 (which is closer to large format's 4x5 than 35mm wide aspect)
+ No PDAF so we stay compatible with tech cam glass
+ Better I/O – latest gen Wifi AND Bluetooth for file transfer and triggering
+ SoC - enough "oomph" for all the beloved features like FRA, etc., but also faster shooting and concurrent I/O
+ More "oomph" battery wise
+ Legendary P1 build (splash resistance, etc.), but somehow ability to connect an EVF somewhere
+ Trade up with IQ4 max 25k
+ Better screen, potentially tiltable (if ruggedness and weather sealing can be maintained)

200-250 megapixels and we're good! Especially with a refreshed XT tilt range and large shift body and potentially universal XC for compact shooting.

This is going to be a dream with optics like the 60 XL ...

Paul, I know that this forum is visible to them. And we've had many, many feature requests (some really good ones and not difficult ones) that they have been deemed suitable to ignore. We understand it is always a numbers game (how many would value this feature, etc.) but at the level of units they work with, I feel that the acuity of the requests should be taken into account as much as the quantity of the requests.

I can't say what I am most optimistic about, but I am most pessimistic about #6. But we'll see.

Dana, I am doubtful of a new mirrorless body for Phase One. I see building around the XC/XT/X?? system. A mirrorless replacement for XF would be a toughie to recoup the investment on. But again, we'll see. So much comes from the industrial side now, maybe there will be a rabbit pulled out of the hat.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[BFD]

Steve, I am sure you would know better than me but I feel the XT system is just for nerds like you and me. Almost no one outside of this forum uses the XT system. It's so niche. I even see more professionals with Cambo and Alpa than the XT. If no mirrorless from them, then I don't really see them continuing in the medium format world. Even Hasselblad resuscicated their nearly dead brand with their mirrorless system. Isn't the bulk of Phase One's business already outside of medium format photography? If so, I could see them just slowly letting medium format die over the next few years.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I would think if an IQ5 was in development it would come with a whole new mirrorless system if they really are serious about staying in the medium format game. I don't see them putting more effort into the XF system.

They can run it a bit differently as a business given they use the tech across their industrial product lines. To me P1 has become an industrial company which sells consumer stuff as a "side hustle", ie as long as it is healthily cost+ its ok for them.

Let's say there's a new IQ5. The can put it into satellites, repro, aerial, drones, etc. and if some people are willing to drop 25k for a trade in or pay the price for their XC then they are fine. So they can look at the business at bit differently as R&D costs can be allocated.

Still, since P1 is owned by private equity, they need to find a way of selling or IPOing the business which requires a good upside story in all their business areas.... I imagine that's why all of. sudden there seems to be growth and new products again in the photo piece; however, unclear what the demand on the ultra high end is nowadays ...

I wonder also how they are going to spin C1's problems into a growth case after the intro of the subscription model destroyed a lot of customer goodwill ... the negative comments in their forum are just endless ... seems to be a big problem for them to keep people renewing and I also am a bit surprised that there's not more new stuff coming given their subscription is quite expensive. C1 is very mute

A new mirrorless system is very unlikely – too expensive to develop and it would run completely against their existing back form factor and on top they are doubling down on XT right now which already is sort of mirrorless.

The only new MF system we'll see will be the S4 which I hear from the optics alone is going to be absolutely amazing. Think F2 APO MF lenses with fast AF ... and Leica quality and bokeh.

P1 is an industrial business with some incremental income from enthusiasts who buy their sensors. I am not sure the slogan "what the world's best photography is made of" is prominently used by them anymore. The last years felt like a slow, but steady transformation of a photo company into a B2B high end industrial imaging company.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve, I am sure you would know better than me but I feel the XT system is just for nerds like you and me. Almost no one outside of this forum uses the XT system. It's so niche. I even see more professionals with Cambo and Alpa than the XT. If no mirrorless from them, then I don't really see them continuing in the medium format world. Even Hasselblad resuscicated their nearly dead brand with their mirrorless system. Isn't the bulk of Phase One's business already outside of medium format photography? If so, I could see them just slowly letting medium format die over the next few years.

There are more nerds than you would think. Technically, Phase One has always been pretty niche (max 3,000 - 4,000 units annually, my guess). Clearly, they are more niche than ever (in the consumer space). But their per unit revenue has also gone up substantially. While there are also numerous Alpa, Cambo, Arca users, these users also tend to use Phase One digital backs. Hasselblad CFV 100c offers a more budget-friendly alternative, but lack of budget isn't necessarily a concern in some nerd circles. The way I see it, Phase One has leveraged their industrial side, Rodenstock and Cambo, and this has relieved some ROI pressure on the tech camera side that would normally be present. Unknown whether there is something there that impacts something like a XF Mirrorless with new lenses. Keep in mind, we as dealers know nothing, and our speculation is the same as anyone else's, just speculation.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[dchew]

Just released today.

"Even at 16-bit output, the sensor promises to record 247-megapixel photos at 5.3 frames per second."

Not quite fast enough for no rolling shutter issues but certainly an improvement.

Looks like this is 54x36. Surface area keeps getting smaller. If you want to crop to 4:3, then 48x36. Not far off from 44x33, meh.

On the other hand, stitching images together might be interesting. Hmm... that Alpa Pano is looking more promising. Horizontal shifts with the back in portrait, 35mm each way gives 106mm x 54mm @ 726mp, but a whopping 119mm image circle.

Cropped to my 9:4 ratio (cuz, you know, this is all about ME), 106mm x 47mm @ 633mp and 116mm IC. The 138 float could do that and probably the 90hr-sw.

Dave

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Who said this will be the size of the photo sensor - they can cut it too to 54x40; all that matters is that we get to a lower pixel pitch with same or better DR

 

[dchew]

Who said this will be the size of the photo sensor - they can cut it too to 54x40; all that matters is that we get to a lower pixel pitch with same or better DR

Look at the specs, Paul. Pixel pitch of 2.81 and pixels are 19240x12840. Sure, the could change it, but the've never done that in the past on their road maps.

Dave