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Magic Four Series: The versatile SK 60 XL – laudatio on one of the best MFD lenses ever made

daz7

Active member
@Alkibiades I am not so sure if all digitar lenses are of the same formulas as symmars and componons. Some of them yes, they are identical, for example componon 90 and digitar 90, some of them are modified so much that they no longer match any of the previous designs, for example 150N, 60XL or 72L digitars have no equivalents in analog lens designs . They may be very roughly based on re-scaled previous blueprints but improvements for digital went so far, that they have not much in common with previous models.
Also, Schneider took special care with some of the models to optimize it for a specific task, for example 72L being specifically formulated for being scale resistant, having the lowest possible Corlour Aberration (I believe the lowest of all digitars) and inexistant distortion - the cost was its image circle but you really cannot tell that Digitar 72L is a super angulon 72 or 75 as they differ completely. Here is a comparison of digitar 72L (left) and SA lenses (right) - there is nothing in common:
 

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4x5Australian

Well-known member
@Alkibiades I am not so sure if all digitar lenses are of the same formulas as symmars and componons. Some of them yes, they are identical, for example componon 90 and digitar 90, some of them are modified so much that they no longer match any of the previous designs, for example 150N, 60XL or 72L digitars have no equivalents in analog lens designs . They may be very roughly based on re-scaled previous blueprints but improvements for digital went so far, that they have not much in common with previous models.
Also, Schneider took special care with some of the models to optimize it for a specific task, for example 72L being specifically formulated for being scale resistant, having the lowest possible Corlour Aberration (I believe the lowest of all digitars) and inexistant distortion - the cost was its image circle but you really cannot tell that Digitar 72L is a super angulon 72 or 75 as they differ completely. Here is a comparison of digitar 72L (left) and SA lenses (right) - there is nothing in common:
The generalisation offered by @Alkibiades is correct. However, @daz7 is correct in pointing out that Schneider further refined those classic designs for high-resolution digital.

The Apo-Digitar 43XL and Apo-Digitar 60XL lenses utilise the classic near-symmetrical 8-element Super-Angulon design.

The Apo-Digitar 120mm Aspheric is a refinement of the classic symmetrical 6-element Apo-Symmar design.

The Super-Digitar 28XL is a unique, partially symmetrical 10-element optical formulation with an enlarged large front group containing two deeply curved elements out front and a bi-concave element near the centre. That Schneider achieved low distortion that barely exceeded the 0.5% seen in the near-symmetrical Super-Angulon design is a remarkable achievement indeed. Alpa literature stated that Schneider "pushed everything to the limit so that this lens could be used safely on the Alpa. ... Even today, this lens is still the ultimate ... in terms of high imaging performance and low weight / compact dimensions."

It is a great shame that Schneider's exit from photographic optics prevented the Super-Digitar design from being used for a 35XL version 2.

Schneider's press release for the 60XL states that "The latest processing and manufacturing technologies have been used in its serial production" and those same technologies would have been used in the manufacturing of the other three lenses.

I agree with alkibiades that the abandonment by both Schneider and Rodenstock of their well-established design-type lens names was unfortunate and has likely led to much confusion during the 20 plus years since.

In this regard, Rodenstock was worse, applying the name Apo-Sironar, which previously referred specifically to its line of symmetrical Apo-Symmar-type lenses, to other types of lenses such as the Apo-Grandagon wide angle types.
 
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Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
That's why the Magic Four are so special. 8 and 10-element designs, huge ICs, fully rectilinear.

The 43 / 60 XL, being final evolution-level designs of classic and over decades proven wide-angle lens formulations, are therefore unique in terms of their significance.

The 28 XL is also extremely sharp, despite being a huge wide-angle – always surprised how good it is.

Also fascinating the nomenclature of "super-digitar" – indeed sad that there weren't more of these super digitars designed.
 
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akaru

Active member
I’d always assumed that the 43 was the successor to the 35, but they’re far enough apart that a new one would have been handy. Love my copy on-center.
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
As I remamber i was in contact with leading technician from Schneider, they were really frustrated with the development of the new sensors.
everything was fine with big 60 MP Dalsa sensor and smaller Kodak 39 and 50 MP sensors. No microlenses, no extreme color cast that cant be fully removed without destruction of the image quality. Then the negative develope began: 80 MP bis sensor and small 40 MP ( same pixel density), with micro lenses, therefore too strong color cast).
Over night the very popular and price-wise very atractive schneider lenses like 35xl and 28xl become useless. Rodenstock retrofocus lenses made of very complicated 14-16 elements were the only way to go, especially in the wide angle area. The rodenstock prices are extremly high, it is a big difference if you make an easy 8 elements design or a very complicated 16 elements.
The biggest reason for use of technical cameras are the movements, especially for architecture, where wide angle lenses are the most used lenses, the 90% use.
If you cannot produce lenses for that usement you are done. In this situation Schneider could only produce longer lenses, macro lenses, but this semms not to be enough to survive on the marked. At the same time the sale of analoge large format lenses tends to zero. Analoge large format seemed to be done and there were so much used lenses on second hand market.
Nowerdays the analoge large format is still alive, it is even growing! not in professional but in artistic and hobby area.
In this situation Schneider stopped the production of planned lenses like Apo Digitar aspheric 100 mm, that would be the same lens-design like the 120 aspheric but shorter.
The whole lens development was stopped.
For all Photo-friends it was a horrible development, becouse this was the start of the end of Schneider lensproduction.
Schneider shows with some very spectaculer lenses that the company was still be able to produce high end lenses for digital use on the highest level.
The new develope phase one blue line 35 mm was the only one modern wide anle in the middle format that could resolve the modern backs. Simply on the similar level like Rodenstock digaron 35 mm 32 mm. I was hopping that schneider will mount this lens into the PC T/S mount for 35 mm camera systems as the best 35 mm T/S lens! It would be the only one lens in this segment without any concurence products. intead they still sale the 30 or 50 years old lens design in the PC mount ( 50 mm and 28 mm) and what a surprise that nobody buy it, where canon/ nikon deliver opticly better lenses for a much cheaper price.
What the most people dont know is that the really big buissness, that means production of the new 35 mm lenses for all camera systems was also stopped.
These new lenses were already shown and wre avertised. The traditional lens designs like xenotar, curtagon, Tele-xenar made for modern digital 35 mm systems, with manual focus, like Zeiss lenses. In the last second somebody stopped it. What a great decision to commid a suicide. Zeiss did the righ way, they start to produce even lenses on much higher optical level with the Zeiss Otus, but not made in germany but made in japan. Why? becouse zeiss gemany cant produce lenses any more. The income in Japan is higher than in germany, so the production would be even cheaper, but there are no production or people who could produce it. Schneider could do it at the time, but the managment find the suicide as a better option.
Schneider knows that they never can compete with low end production from china. Thats true, but the high end would be always the right place for good technology made in germany.
Now the high end lenses are wanted then never before. All camera systems have high resolution sensors, better lenses are needed more than ever before.
Fuji come now with tilt shift lenses for GFX where Schneider could shine, the prices for modern T/S lenses are high, look Nikon 19mm T/S.
Hasselbald XD still needs T/S lenses, Schneider could offer here also some lenses. Could, if they would have still a lens production.
Let us imagine what would happen when Sony back ulluminated sensors would apear some years sooner.
Schneider lenses , aspecially the wide angle would be wanted as never before. The lens design of the Super Digitar xl 28 mm could be converted on the new Super Digitar 35 xl and 24xl,
the prices of these lense would be even cheaper than the rodenstock ( 10 glasses or 16 glasses, this make a big difference), maybe a new 70-80 xl, new 47 mm XL, for sure the already planed 100 mm aspheric, maybe later new longer lenses...
When the production of the digital lenses where there, so the production of a small amount of analoge large format lenses would be still possible.
When new lenses still would apear, this would have also a possitive influance on camera development and digital back production. A win - win situation for the whole production.
There was already a interesting moment in the large format lenses development whre Zeiss West and Zeiss East wanted to show who is the best lens producer in the world- end of the sixties. Both made some revolutionery lens designs, some prototapes were produced, even showed to public, but at the end both sides did not start a mass production, becouse of the high cost of the producton. Both sides develope lenses that were opticly on the much higher level that the large format lenses produce by Schneider/ rodenstock at the time.
After unification in the 90 ties Doctar company buyed zeiss east large format buissness with the aspiration of rebirth of this aim: to buil simply the best lenses.
All this revolutionery lens designs should be done on the new level, but the owner of the company unexpectedly died.
The following owners were not able to continue this way.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I'd like to add that the 45 BR is also a great lens, very sharp, but bulky. I think you can get 10mm shift out of it mounted on an adapter. Still, nothing beats Schneider wide-angles and medium wides: 28, 43, 60 XL to this day.
 

ThdeDude

Well-known member
"Alkibiades" interesting write-up.

Wonder how long Rodenstock will stay in the LF style/type lens business. Will we see new lenses from Rodenstock?
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
No new lenses, but Greiner still has stock of some Sironar-S lenses and less sought after vintage glass, e.g. SK 150mm, etc. Problem is supply of copal shutters at this stage ...
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
"Alkibiades" interesting write-up.

Wonder how long Rodenstock will stay in the LF style/type lens business. Will we see new lenses from Rodenstock?
there should be some plans for something like Digaron-W 28 mm with 90 mm image circle. Also a digaron -SW in range 60-70 mm with 110 mm imege circle would be a logical option. But if they will ever come? I am sure they will, when new back will come, that means the market can grow.
 

akaru

Active member
I hear whispers of a 23 redux, even some gossip about P1 blocking its development, but none of it is verified.
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
I mean it should be Digaron-W 25 mm... a lens that would replace 23 and 28 with a bigger image circle for the large sensor...
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
It was a Digaron-W 25, 90mm IC.

It won't come because it would be too expensive to build and sell (imagine the size of the lens!) in our times (we are talking same zip code as 138 given optical complexity on a retrofocus basis) and it was tested as an idea by Rodenstock with the key partners, meaning P1, Alpa, and Cambo. None of them would commit to fixed pre-orders and given that the business unit has some very qualified optical engineers who are also needed in industrial applications (defense contracts, corporate projects) there's no business case for a new lens. I was told there needs to be a credible internal business case for a short- to medium-term sales potential of around ca. EUR4m for a new lens which is not realistic. Imagine rougly speaking 6k sales price for b2b partners that would mean almost 700 units in say three years. That's not realistic for say a MSRP 13k EUR wide-angle in a mount.

The market is not there. Sales for new HR lenses have consistently come down over the last years and the recent price hike combined with the fallout from the pandemic and emerging alternatives, the overall state of the economy makes it so that the likelihood of releasing another 138mm class super Rodenstock wide-angle with 16 elements, etc. is near 0. In parallel as HR prices rose, 2nd hand prices stayed same or lower for non-Alpa, at least.

You can get a mounted non-Alpa 32 f4 for 5.5k, meaning residual for a minty naked copal / AU 32 f4 should be in the 3000-4000 range, if non-mint or faulty lower, even. So how does a 13k 25 HR fit in there. It doesnt. Lol. The delta is too high and an indicator why the 138s also don't sell at all. Too expensive for 99% of people. SK Magic Four are the only ones rising in value, and good non-Alpa HR lenses are stable at where they are: 40/50 for 4000-5000, 32 for 5500, 90 for 5500-6500, 70 for 2500-3000, 23 for 5000-6000. Alpa and X-shutter command premium. XT premium on top. SK top lenses command premium no matter which mount.

Releasing 10k+ lenses, 12k+, 13k+ so it still is a good deal for the camera manufacturer and lens manufacturer? Uh... risky investment proposition right now, to say the least!

There's enough profit per unit with the new pricing now so that the current line-up will still be sold for some time, that's what I heard, but new developments? Forget it. If P1 and Cambo who dominate lens purchases don't commit to fixed pre-orders of a few hundred units over a medium-term period - and they won't in this environment – we won't see a new lens from Rodenstock, unfortunately.

Even the 138, which started development in 2013(!) and came out I think in 2018 or 2019 is not really selling. We are talking very low sales numbers here. Like low teens. The 138 price and resulting demand will additionally have given Rodestock and the partners a pause when thinking about doing new lenses.

Great lens.
 
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ThdeDude

Well-known member
It was a Digaron-W 25, 90mm IC.

It won't come because it would be too expensive to build and sell (imagine the size of the lens!) in our times (we are talking same zip code as 138 given optical complexity on a retrofocus basis) and it was tested as an idea by Rodenstock with the key partners, meaning P1, Alpa, and Cambo. ...
Interesting to compare this to Fujinon GF 30MM T/S, which retails for $4K.

I assume the critical difference is that the Fujinon GF 30MM T/S will be produced in much larger numbers than any Digaron.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Interesting to compare this to Fujinon GF 30MM T/S, which retails for $4K.

I assume the critical difference is that the Fujinon GF 30MM T/S will be produced in much larger numbers than any Digaron.
That’s the point. The whole business model of tech cams and digital backs was massive technological superiority compared to mirror based cameras with smaller res sensors.

Now we have good enough EVF cameras with relatively large sensors and a bad economy and totally changed market dynamics for pros too.

Still, I have the hope that we will still see an ultra high end IQ5 at one point.
 
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