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Totally agree, the new Leica's are much more reliable (I don't want to jinx it saying they are trouble-free, but that's how the SL have been, for me at least), but as you said that doesn't justify piss-poor customer service for those times when you need something serviced for any reasons, including our fault.I've had all the issues the OP has had. Some of them multiple times. Leica service times are truley woeful. Like Vieri, I've also had a very reliable experience with the newer systems (SL, CL/TL, M10) so I really do feel Leica have crossed a bridge when it comes to reliability. I use my SL for most of my work (now with an S1R for high res requirements) and I don't worry that the camera isn't up to the task. Their service times are still woeful though and I don't trust my S007 to be reliable.
However, although I really dislike waiting 5 months to have a lens repaired (I have a SL16-35 in at the moment and I'm resigned to not seeing it until September, I suppose. It's not a fault though. I dropped it.), I long ago learned that this was the way if you wanted to shoot Leica digital. I've always made sure I had a backup or alternative for when a body of lens goes down. There's no pro service at Leica, despite their weird announcements at the last Photokina. You need to be totally self sufficient. It is what it is. At the same time I have to acknowledge that Leica should do better. Surely they know there's an issue with service times. It does make you feel like they don't give a damn when the same shitty service times go on year after year after year. The staff at the Leica store in Sydney are friendly, helpful and knowledgeable. Having **** service support must be hard on them as well.
I suppose you could go with CPS or NPS if you wanted that kind of thing. I was a CPS member in Oz for nearly two decades and while repairs were fast, if you took it in yourself, not once when I needed a loaner, was one available. There was always something on (F1 or some launch) and I couldn't get a loan body when I needed it. That drove me nuts because they made a promise about service delivery and never once helped me out. I took in an EOS3 for a warranty job and all they had was an EOS500 as a loaner. Pointless. One of the reasons I changed to Leica. If I had to have backups of everything it might as well be with a camera I enjoy using.
Hasselblad have been better for me. My XCD30mm took 4-5 weeks from dealer to importer to Sweden and back. If only Leica could get close to those times, on occasion.
Gordon
But you knew that when you bought the M10. Didn't you? I knew exactly how noisy the M9, M-P 240, and M-D 262 were long before I bought them, and I've done "discrete" work with even a Nikon F in the past, which sounds more like a gunshot going off than a camera's shutter firing. Nobody ever noticed when I took photographs anyway.I'm pretty much done buying anything new in digital Leica, but for a slightly different reason. I have an M10 and while everything else on it is pretty much perfect, the shutter noise for a lot of the work I do is simply not. It's almost as harsh as the M9 was so I am always really surprised at how many heads it turns in low key documentary situations.
So I had really been looking forward to getting the shutter upgraded because I don't feel like handing over $8,000 for an M10P to get the shutter they should have put in the camera in the first place. But when I recently learned that you either pay $1,395 for everything but the shutter and then $2,995 for the whole thing including the shutter, well this is truly my last dance with this greedy company.
Even though they are larger cameras overall, Nikon Z mirrorless cameras and the lenses are simply walking all over the Leica M10 for discrete work, it's no contest. Having a completely silent shutter is such a subconscious game changer for me it is mind boggling. So a few days ago I took that $3K that Leica was asking to fix their stupid shutter and put it toward my third Z body.
I'll keep the M10 and maybe I will buy a used M10-P down the road but I will *never* pay Leica for a new digital body ever again.
Really? Where does this come from? I worked for a camera company. We would want to include new features for a number of reasons, to distinguish our products from competitor's and to be first to the market. Old new features were not very useful. I would chalk that idea up to urban myth.It's well known that camera companies hold back certain features to be incorporated in future models, ...
Yeah, I think it's obvious what Leica does with their "upgrades". With the perceived pinnacle of digital tech and design apparent in most every other camera, you expect consumers to believe that Leica couldn't figure out a spirit level and silent shutter in the 1st gen. M10? Really? Only to be featured in the groundbreaking newer M10? Touchscreens and lack of logos on the front complete the upgrade for a more discreet photo experience. What's next, a custom hot shoe cover?Really? Where does this come from? I worked for a camera company. We would want to include new features for a number of reasons, to distinguish our products from competitor's and to be first to the market. Old new features were not very useful. I would chalk that idea up to urban myth.
Well, it is not obvious unless you have some inside track on the conversations. Leica is a notoriously conservative camera manufacturer, and mostly to do with its customer base. Not everything is a conspiracy. Given their track record of product problems, I would not assume a grand master plan is at work.Yeah, I think it's obvious what Leica does with their "upgrades". With the perceived pinnacle of digital tech and design apparent in most every other camera, you expect consumers to believe that Leica couldn't figure out a spirit level and silent shutter in the 1st gen. M10? Really? Only to be featured in the groundbreaking newer M10? Touchscreens and lack of logos on the front complete the upgrade for a more discreet photo experience. What's next, a custom hot shoe cover?
By being conservative in the "moderation or caution" definition, I'd say that hasn't bode too well for their engineering department give the number of recalls of deficient camera products. Not everything is a conspiracy indeed. I'd bet a segment of the loyal customer base is more than just a little annoyed of the minimal upgrade features that almost every other camera on the market includes. Boutique customers don't drive innovation, just the price of upgrades.Well, it is not obvious unless you have some inside track on the conversations. Leica is a notoriously conservative camera manufacturer, and mostly to do with its customer base. Not everything is a conspiracy. Given their track record of product problems, I would not assume a grand master plan is at work.
Some of us "boutique customers" don't give a rat's patootie for all the gizmos that you seem to feel are lacking. We buy the cameras to make photographs, and like them just as they are.By being conservative in the "moderation or caution" definition, I'd say that hasn't bode too well for their engineering department give the number of recalls of deficient camera products. Not everything is a conspiracy indeed. I'd bet a segment of the loyal customer base is more than just a little annoyed of the minimal upgrade features that almost every other camera on the market includes. Boutique customers don't drive innovation, just the price of upgrades.
Great points. I'm sure the OP has switched gear from Leica considering what he's put into it. I've never had any issues with Leica digital other than the cheap plastic crap of the CL lenses. I sold all my Leica digital gear in favor of just the film versions. The Leica lenses, as others have mentioned, are the best! I did have many issues with Hasselblad MFD, but decided that today's FF cameras when adapting M and R lenses are just as good for a majority of our work.Oh crap... This looks like a Sony thread from a few years ago... well I said they were the "new Leica" based on how people kept responding.
In any case, I think most of the points and feedback have been made and I think we can conclude that if fast turnaround times of repairs are a necessity for your business/professional usage then this is probably only a brand to consider for personal projects (which technically can be professional) or personal use. There are naturally exceptions to every rule but yes take the frequency of commonly faulty products seriously. That doesn't mean that everything they make will break but I'd stay away from their CCD based products and maybe wouldn't buy their S lenses used for fear it may have an old motor in them.
Now that this is solved then maybe we can all move on from this thread. I feel for the OP (I've kinda been there) but it's just a camera... dump it (assuming your dealer would issue a refund or a fair buy back price for a refurb) and choose something that works better for you.
But you are trying so hard.I see no reason to convince people of anything.
I guess that all depends on the professional and their market. I’d assume that unreliable gear might elicit a strongly worded letter/email if the catastrophe is large enough. Perhaps it would push them to research their issue to see if others have experienced the same to see if they’re the exception that got a bit of bad luck or if they’re experiencing a common enough problem that they should divest themselves from their gear.Professionals don't stamp their feet and get miffed like children because some manufacturers' equipment and some dealers have failed for them. They just move on to equipment that gets the job done and don't waste time blowing hot air. The time and money involved in equipment management required to do your job is a business expense, not a personal/emotional thing.
Yes, I was a professional photographer too, prior to retiring. Never saw any purpose to complaining about stuff that failed on me. I just stopped using it when getting satisfaction from a dealer/vendor didn't happen, sold it, and went to other equipment that worked. Frankly, that's why I ended up with Leica gear: it does the job I wanted, and want still.
I see no reason to convince people of anything. Convince yourself to do the sensible thing, whatever that might be for you and your photography, and act like a professional.
G
Nicely written! :clap:I guess that all depends on the professional and their market. I’d assume that unreliable gear might elicit a strongly worded letter/email if the catastrophe is large enough. Perhaps it would push them to research their issue to see if others have experienced the same to see if they’re the exception that got a bit of bad luck or if they’re experiencing a common enough problem that they should divest themselves from their gear.
Again voicing what ALL professional do or how ALL professionals would react is a bit presumptuous in stating that they all react the same way that you or people you know would. I don’t know that getting miffed over the reliability of 10’s of thousands of dollars of camera equipment is acting like a child so much as it is genuine concern/anger that a product that has a certain heritage and reputation isn’t as seemingly reliable as gear in the same price range or lower price range.
So yes, it COULD be a business expense but you still have to work consistently in order to pay off those business expenses. If your equipment is in Germany for months well then it’s potentially costing you money (whether you have to buy an additional backup or buy into another system if you can’t afford the 3rd Leica body) when the bills are still due. Photography is a side job for me and I make a much higher salary at my day job so I understand that I have a level of flexibility in choosing my gear that I wouldn't pretend most full-time working photographers have.
In the USA the average full-time photographer is making less than $50k a year and let’s assume the high-end ones are making high 5 figures to low 6 figures. Adding a Leica isn’t an insignificant cost for most so no need to minimize a person voicing their concerns. I truly hope you don’t have a terrible service experience. Like I’ve said - I didn’t have a bad service experience myself but having 2 cameras that retailed for $14k both fail does not give me a warm and fuzzy for Pro work. I’d sooner take a CaNikoSonyFuji (and did for value purposes above all else) for that personally if the goal is to make money and maybe have a Leica M for personal use. For the cost of a M body you could get a couple of bodies and the 24-200/2.8 equivalent zoom lenses for any system and have a working kit and a personal M kit. That's not to say none of those other cameras can break. They can and will eventually but the price to re-entry is much lower and the service likely wouldn’t take months to fix in reality.
Once again, my posts aren't to disparage Leica as a company. I myself like some of their products without a doubt but let's not pretend that every brand doesn't have perceived shortcomings from an individual point of view. For the record this was originally about one person's experiences... others have shared similar experiences. I'm not one to make a judgment on the company as a whole as many people like yourself are quite satisfied with their Leica gear... nothing wrong with that at all but it's also fair for people that have been "burned" to ask the questions too.
LOL! If you're a free-lance photographer or a single-person shop making less than $50K per year from your business, the very notion of spending $14K for a couple of pieces of equipment is so absurd it isn't worth considering. MOST professional photographers in that situation buy the cheapest gear that will get the job done—and for most such jobs handled by $50K/annum photographers the nuanced excellence of a Leica lens compared to the already excellent rendering of a good CaNiFuPenSoOlyPan lens is completely irrelevant: The buyers don't see it....
In the USA the average full-time photographer is making less than $50k a year and let’s assume the high-end ones are making high 5 figures to low 6 figures. ...
LOL again! Do you not understand that I am retired now and this entire forum is nothing more than idle chit-chat to pass the time in a pleasant manner, conversing with other idle photography-interested people, when I'm not otherwise busy? It has zero weight to me.faberryman said: "But you are trying so hard."