The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

alajuela

Member
These are not fallacious arguments made from malicious hearsay. These are numerous reports from a multitude of credible sources and I was just commenting on this as it could relate to photography. Your indignation is misdirected. A Bill is being considered called “The Slave-Free Business Certification Act,” it increases the corporate supply chain disclosure requirements while mandating regular audits. It will also require CEOs to certify that their companies’ supply chains are not participating in forced slave labor and will create penalties for firms that fail basic minimum standards for human rights.
I want to know if what I purchase is being produced by slave labor. It's just that simple, no accusations. I'm dismayed by all the pushback, but considering today's events, not surprised. I agree, that charity and judgement do begin at home, hence, my initial comment. Good point!
Point taken and appreciated,

I worked and lived in Asia from 1999 - 2016 one of my direct responsibilities was labor and human rights compliance - where I personally with my team and using BV and ITS for forensic payroll audits, inspected hundreds of factories throughout out Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Viet Nam, South Korea, Bangladesh, Mongolia, Pakistan and of course China. All the countries have their own particular issues. I think I can say with more creditably than some of the talking heads, on TV, that slave labor is not prevalent especially on export items if at all. I think there is a lot of click bait and hyperbole, Slave Labor bring up the connotation or Southern Plantations in the US where Humans were bought and sold as though they were horses. where most likely if is more similar to making license plates in US prisons. Calling these Concentration Camps, brings up images of WW II - My father was in these camps in Poland, Czechoslovakia, (yes he had the tattoo number on his left forearm) so I tend to resent the quick use of words.

I am not discounting nor am I excusing and even less condoning Chinese draconian measures that they take with own citizens. Justice in a legal sense we are accustomed to, does not exist. I have seen first hand US companies withdraw from Chinese factories for payroll irregularities, that went uncorrected with 60 days, I agree with your intentions and good conscience, I am highly skeptical of talking heads , that are just that talking heads, what they say today and what they say tomorrow with the same conviction, has no accountability. Just anecdotally, I have seen NGOs get involved and come down on "Child Labor" (not in China it was Turkey) where they threaten factories closing them down, YES nobody wants child labor - except the mothers that have 15 year old and don't want them on the streets hustling, drugs, petty crime or worst. My point being If you don't want child labor, then use your NGO money, to set up vocational schools. Identifying problems is the easy sexy part, solving the cause, is the sweaty unglamorous work

Sorry to run on like this, but I think things need to be said, and drama has no part in this, Human dignity should be universal, where it gets complicated is with cultures and chauvinism which must temper things, at least hyperbole. To say again, I agree with you, I personally would never buy ANYTHING made by people in concentration camps. My point (not directed at you but at the subject at hand) is also summed up with - "have you ever been on some of the Indian Reservations in the Western United States", I say not directed at you but at some of the others that might read this and their self righteousness clouds the reality of Universal Human Rights, making it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
 

jdphoto

Active member
Point taken and appreciated,

I worked and lived in Asia from 1999 - 2016 one of my direct responsibilities was labor and human rights compliance - where I personally with my team and using BV and ITS for forensic payroll audits, inspected hundreds of factories throughout out Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Viet Nam, South Korea, Bangladesh, Mongolia, Pakistan and of course China. All the countries have their own particular issues. I think I can say with more creditably than some of the talking heads, on TV, that slave labor is not prevalent especially on export items if at all. I think there is a lot of click bait and hyperbole, Slave Labor bring up the connotation or Southern Plantations in the US where Humans were bought and sold as though they were horses. where most likely if is more similar to making license plates in US prisons. Calling these Concentration Camps, brings up images of WW II - My father was in these camps in Poland, Czechoslovakia, (yes he had the tattoo number on his left forearm) so I tend to resent the quick use of words.

I am not discounting nor am I excusing and even less condoning Chinese draconian measures that they take with own citizens. Justice in a legal sense we are accustomed to, does not exist. I have seen first hand US companies withdraw from Chinese factories for payroll irregularities, that went uncorrected with 60 days, I agree with your intentions and good conscience, I am highly skeptical of talking heads , that are just that talking heads, what they say today and what they say tomorrow with the same conviction, has no accountability. Just anecdotally, I have seen NGOs get involved and come down on "Child Labor" (not in China it was Turkey) where they threaten factories closing them down, YES nobody wants child labor - except the mothers that have 15 year old and don't want them on the streets hustling, drugs, petty crime or worst. My point being If you don't want child labor, then use your NGO money, to set up vocational schools. Identifying problems is the easy sexy part, solving the cause, is the sweaty unglamorous work

Sorry to run on like this, but I think things need to be said, and drama has no part in this, Human dignity should be universal, where it gets complicated is with cultures and chauvinism which must temper things, at least hyperbole. To say again, I agree with you, I personally would never buy ANYTHING made by people in concentration camps. My point (not directed at you but at the subject at hand) is also summed up with - "have you ever been on some of the Indian Reservations in the Western United States", I say not directed at you but at some of the others that might read this and their self righteousness clouds the reality of Universal Human Rights, making it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
Thank you for that comment. I completely agree and appreciate the time you took to share this. It can be difficult to explain complex matters, but you've got me thinking more realistically. All the Best!
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
The problem here is the straw man augment, you made an accusation, that camera equipment is made with slave labor in China, Prove it. Simple - Prove it.

Pas-de Problème, mon ami.

A report by The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (an independent non-partisan think tank) identifies 82 foreign and Chinese companies directly or indirectly benefiting from the use of Uyghur workers outside Xinjiang through potentially abusive labour transfer programs.

Among them are Apple, Google, Huawei, Nokia, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony; and Amazon, BMW, Acer, Calvin Klein, General Motors, Gap, HP, Jaguar, LG, Mercedes Benz, Adidas, Puma, Volkswagen and Victorias Secret! Etc, etc.

I have long held the opinion that somewhere along the line of most manufacturing processes is a slave. And that includes the 8 year old girl who works in the DRC mining cobalt (that ends up in mobile phones) for long hours and earning a pittance.

We are a sad old planet.

Peace and love.
"The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) is a defence and strategic policy think tank based in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, founded by the Australian government and partly funded by the Australian Department of Defence.

ASPI's 2018-19 annual report states that it received some funding from the Embassy of Japan and Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Australia, as well as from state governments and defence companies, such as Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, Thales Group, and Raytheon Technologies."


- Wikipedia

They may or may not be trustworthy, but with that list of sponsors, it's hardly "an independent non-partisan think tank". Most of the funders can easilly be defined as among China's most prominent adversaries. And terein lies the core of the problem with these reports. While most or all of the content is probably true, it tells only one side of the story. While I certainly don't approve of the Chinese methods, it's important to remember that more than half of those taken out of poverty worldwide the last few decades are in China, helped by the Chinese communist policies, including in the Xinjiang province.

Most of what is conveyed through media these days is propaganda. Most of it is also true, but when important parts of the truth is ommited, we don't get the whole picture.

Here's another piece of propaganda. I'm sure most or all of this is true too, but again, it only shows one side of the coin:

https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/07/05/xinjiang-and-uyghurs-what-youre-not-being-told/
 

jdphoto

Active member
As I educate myself on this topic, I find there's widely varied opinions and most comments bring value to this discussion as it relates to photography. With the exception of a few comments, this was never about condemning a country or their culture. Sensitive topics are the most difficult discernment, but I think ultimately, allows more objectivity.
 
Last edited:

Godfrey

Well-known member
First you agree with an opinion and then you say move it to the appropiate forum. Bit strange.
Is the point just to be bitchy, Michiel?

Bob's judgement was to cease this discussion here and move the discussion to a more appropriate forum. I agree with that.

Re: Made in China
Please continue this thread on the political forum of your choice.
thanks
-bob
G
 
Top